DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Plane on June 30, 2008, 01:57:08 PM
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It was good.
If all I knew was that speech I would vote for Senator Obama.
His speech in Independence Missouri defines his view of Patriotism , and I thought it well conceived and well delivered, little to object to and much to cheer.
Quoted Mark Twain "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time and your government when it deserves it".
He sure dumped on his buddy General Wesley Clark though , much as Clark deserved it .
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/06/30/1175471.aspx
http://news.google.com/nwshp?hl=en&tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&ncl=1225040040
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Clark was exactly right. Riding in a warplane and getting shot down does not actually qualify one to be president.
Obama was politically correct to disagree with this, because it is not McCain's past performance, but his present ideology that makes him less acceptable as a future president. McCain wants to continue with nearly all of the bad ideas of Juniorbush. He wants to do the wrong things better, in other words.
But they are still the wrong things.
Obama is a good speaker. Quoting Mark Twain in Missouri is a great idea. Perhaps he will quote Vonnegut in Indiana as well.
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Clark was exactly right. Riding in a warplane and getting shot down does not actually qualify one to be president.
Obama was politically correct to disagree with this, because it is not McCain's past performance, but his present ideology that makes him less acceptable as a future president. McCain wants to continue with nearly all of the bad ideas of Juniorbush. He wants to do the wrong things better, in other words.
But they are still the wrong things.
Obama is a good speaker. Quoting Mark Twain in Missouri is a great idea. Perhaps he will quote Vonnegut in Indiana as well.
You seem to lack respect for Senator Barak Obamas sincerity.
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In other words, the use of patriotism as a political sword or a political shield is as old as the Republic. Still, what is striking about today's patriotism debate is the degree to which it remains rooted in the culture wars of the 1960s - in arguments that go back forty years or more. In the early years of the civil rights movement and opposition to the Vietnam War, defenders of the status quo often accused anybody who questioned the wisdom of government policies of being unpatriotic. Meanwhile, some of those in the so-called counter-culture of the Sixties reacted not merely by criticizing particular government policies, but by attacking the symbols, and in extreme cases, the very idea, of America itself - by burning flags; by blaming America for all that was wrong with the world; and perhaps most tragically, by failing to honor those veterans coming home from Vietnam, something that remains a national shame to this day
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/06/30/obamas_patriotism_speech.html
Most Americans never bought into these simplistic world-views - these caricatures of left and right. Most Americans understood that dissent does not make one unpatriotic, and that there is nothing smart or sophisticated about a cynical disregard for America's traditions and institutions. And yet the anger and turmoil of that period never entirely drained away. All too often our politics still seems trapped in these old, threadbare arguments - a fact most evident during our recent debates about the war in Iraq, when those who opposed administration policy were tagged by some as unpatriotic, and a general providing his best counsel on how to move forward in Iraq was accused of betrayal.
Given the enormous challenges that lie before us, we can no longer afford these sorts of divisions. None of us expect that arguments about patriotism will, or should, vanish entirely; after all, when we argue about patriotism, we are arguing about who we are as a country, and more importantly, who we should be. But surely we can agree that no party or political philosophy has a monopoly on patriotism. And surely we can arrive at a definition of patriotism that, however rough and imperfect, captures the best of America's common spirit.
What would such a definition look like? For me, as for most Americans, patriotism starts as a gut instinct, a loyalty and love for country rooted in my earliest memories. I'm not just talking about the recitations of the Pledge of Allegiance or the Thanksgiving pageants at school or the fireworks on the Fourth of July, as wonderful as those things may be. Rather, I'm referring to the way the American ideal wove its way throughout the lessons my family taught me as a child.
One of my earliest memories is of sitting on my grandfather's shoulders and watching the astronauts come to shore in Hawaii. I remember the cheers and small flags that people waved, and my grandfather explaining how we Americans could do anything we set our minds to do. That's my idea of America.
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You seem to lack respect for Senator Barak Obamas sincerity.
Why do you say that?
If he agrees with Mark Twain, Missouri is a good place to say so.
The same would be true for agreeing with Vonnegut in Indiana, since Vonnegut is from Indiana. It is one his granfaloons.
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Quote from: Xavier_Onassis on Today at 06:23:11 PM
Clark was exactly right. Riding in a warplane and getting shot down does not actually qualify one to be president.
Obama was politically correct to disagree with this, because it is not McCain's past performance, but his present ideology that makes him less acceptable as a future president. McCain wants to continue with nearly all of the bad ideas of Juniorbush. He wants to do the wrong things better, in other words.
But they are still the wrong things.
Obama is a good speaker. Quoting Mark Twain in Missouri is a great idea. Perhaps he will quote Vonnegut in Indiana as well.
You seem to lack respect for Senator Barak Obamas sincerity.
Why do you say that?
If he agrees with Mark Twain, Missouri is a good place to say so.
The same would be true for agreeing with Vonnegut in Indiana, since Vonnegut is from Indiana. It is one his granfaloons.
Everyone Agrees with Mark Twain , because here or there he said everything.
Saying that Clark was correct isn't equivelent to saying that Obama wasn't correct to reverse what he said?
"Politically Correct" means "sincere" now?
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http://recreate68.com/?p=63#more-63
The article on this link is written by a person who feels very let down by Barak Obama , but who still likes him better than McCain.
The Obama position on Isreal is not very diffrent than the Republican party planks on the same issue , but this author thinks Obama's statements on the subject are not sincere but political so he is willing to forgive , even though he is terribly hurt .
This Attitude deserves what it will very predictably get.
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Everyone Agrees with Mark Twain , because here or there he said everything.
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You have not read Mark Twain. He was against all foreign interventions and wars, always. He was against the overthrow of the Hawaiian government and the annexation of Hawaii was immoral. He was against the Spanish American War as well as fighting the insurrection in the Philipines.
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I meant that Clark was correct to say that riding in a fighter plane and being shot down does not qualify anyone to be president.
If you believe otherwise, perhaps you could specifically say how this is true.
Obama did not, you will observe, say that he believed that riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down does qualify anyone to be president. He did not contradict Clark. He simply said that military experience should be seen as patriotic. I don't disagree with that, either.
I do not question Obama's sincerity, or Clark's, either.
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Everyone Agrees with Mark Twain , because here or there he said everything.
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You have not read Mark Twain. He was against all foreign interventions and wars, always. He was against the overthrow of the Hawaiian government and the annexation of Hawaii was immoral. He was against the Spanish American War as well as fighting the insurrection in the Philipines.
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I meant that Clark was correct to say that riding in a fighter plane and being shot down does not qualify anyone to be president.
If you believe otherwise, perhaps you could specifically say how this is true.
Obama did not, you will observe, say that he believed that riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down does qualify anyone to be president. He did not contradict Clark. He simply said that military experience should be seen as patriotic. I don't disagree with that, either.
I do not question Obama's sincerity, or Clark's, either.
I have read a lot of Mark Twain , a very busy mind .
I read his unabridged short storys collection and four of his Tom Sawyer adventures.
"Innocents Abroad" I am in the first chapters of.
I know he was in defiance of Teddy Rosevelt, someone had to be I guess.
But he wrote so much with such wit that you can quote him in support of anything , especially if context is absent. Thomas Jefferson and the Bible have the same problem.
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Obama did not, you will observe, say that he believed that riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down does qualify anyone to be president. He did not contradict Clark. He simply said that military experience should be seen as patriotic. I don't disagree with that, either.
I do not question Obama's sincerity, or Clark's, either.
No ?
Seems so tho... perhaps I am mistaken , did you read the full text ? It is really a great speach.
In another recent Speech Barak Obama proposes to expand Presidnt Bush's faith based initiave.
BTW in the Aviation community we never say that the pilot is "riding" his aircraft, we say that he is "Piloting" or we say that he is "Flying " but the other crew or passengers are "riding" not the pilot.
I realise this is a small point but it does illustrate General Clark isn't really up on avaiation matters doesn't it?
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Obama did not, you will observe, say that he believed that riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down does qualify anyone to be president.
Who exactly is being contradicted then?
Who ever did say that being a fighter pilot or a prisoner of war would qualify anyone to be president?
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I realise this is a small point but it does illustrate General Clark isn't really up on avaiation matters doesn't it?
Perhaps he chooses words in the same manner you spell them. Shouldn't we give him the same latitude as is given you?
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Aircraft have autopilots, as you must know, and most of the time the autopilot is doing the flying.
The pilot is most likely concentrating on dropping the bombs.
And it is, of course, true, that nothing that McCain did in that plane qualified him to lead a country.
About all that could be said abotu McCain is that he was better qualified to run the country than Juniorbush.
But then again, so was and is my cat.
The Republican Party deserves to disappear for foisting these venial fools upon us.
I hope they do.
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I realise this is a small point but it does illustrate General Clark isn't really up on avaiation matters doesn't it?
Perhaps he chooses words in the same manner you spell them. Shouldn't we give him the same latitude as is given you?
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Aircraft have autopilots, as you must know, and most of the time the autopilot is doing the flying.
The pilot is most likely concentrating on dropping the bombs.
And it is, of course, true, that nothing that McCain did in that plane qualified him to lead a country.
About all that could be said abotu McCain is that he was better qualified to run the country than Juniorbush.
But then again, so was and is my cat.
The Republican Party deserves to disappear for foisting these venial fools upon us.
I hope they do.
I perceive that you are not up on avaiation also.
An Auto pilot is like a cruse controll , it is fine for calm conditions.
Not for combat .
Being a combat pilot requires a very high minimum of skill ,dexterity and intelligence.
Courage? Oh yes.
Yet as much as it demonstrates to me that McCain has a lot going for him , even I never have said that being a Combat pilot is the perfect preparation for being a President.
Who is Westly Clark contradicting?
Is he argueing with himself?
If he is ,he is wasteing a lot of good argueing effort , he should come here and argue with us.
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Wesley Clark was merely stating that he thought that Obama was more qualified to be president, and suggesting that McCain was not the hot sh*t flyboy hero that saved the nation from destruction by weird alien squid-things in the film Independence Day.
One might suggest that had McCain been a better fighter pilot, he would never have been shot down. It's not like the Vietnamese weren't third world flunkies with inferior weapons.
But flight skills are not really qualification for political leadership. McCain is shrewd. Divorcing a crippled ex-wife and marrying a bazillionaire beer heiress is definitely shrewd, but that is not really so positive a thing either. Hugging Juniorbush after Juyniorbush sicced vile attack dogs like Rove on him in the primaries, then aping his stand on taxes, his inaction on immigration, his utter stubbornness at staying in Iraq forever are not qualities that I consider essential, either.
The only thing McCain seems to be sure of is that he wants to be president. So does Ralph Nader. I am pretty sure which of those I'd choose, too: Hint: the honest one.
The future of military aviation involves drones like the Predator controlled from the ground. I am not sure what degree of courage is required to sit behind a computer console and try to fly up the ass of some poor devils on the ground, but it is probably considerably less than is needed to actually be up in the sky.
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Hugging Juniorbush after Juyniorbush sicced vile attack dogs like Rove on him in the primaries,
You still beleive that?
Lies can't be unspread if they are welcome where they land , they seem to be soaked into the fabric and become too waterproofed to wash out.
I want to point out to you that there is a love fest going on right now between Senator Clinton and Senator Obama, and Hillary let her loose Cannon Husband out in public to speak on the subject of the race card, so how much is integrety destroyed by forgiveness?
I don't accept the validity of your objection nor the truth of it.
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Anyone that was awake during the 200o SC primaries knows that Rove "paperboyed" (sent out anonymous flyers claiming that McCain had a Black lovechild. It is of course, true that he did adopt a Bengali girl from an orphanage who is indeed black. This was in severtal magazines (New Yorker, Vanity Fair) as well as the Miami Herald at the time. If you don;t believe it, well there is a lot of true things you won;t believe. But that does not make it untrue.
McCain did hug Juniorbush like he was a longlost child, and publicly. There are photos of this, just as the Rove smear articles were posted.
online.
McCain voted against Juniorbush's taxcuts in 2000. Now the government rac racked up unprecedented amounts of debt due to the Iraq War, and there is no evidence that the tax cuts actually brought in more revenue. But now, McCain is all for making the Juniorbush taxcuts permanent.
He helped write an immigration bill and supported it, but it was shot down. Now he opposes it.
McCain is pretty clearly just another Juniorbush, taking orders from the oligarchy and basically screwing everything up.
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just as the Rove smear articles were posted.
online.
I'd like to see a link.
there is no evidence that the tax cuts actually brought in more revenue.
You must have missed those articles.
All this has been good news for the government. Federal tax receipts increased by 15%-- $274 billion--last year and 13%-- $206 billion--in the first nine months of this fiscal year, which, as the Journal points out, means the nine-month increases for the past two years represent the highest growth rates in 25 years. Looking ahead to the end of this fiscal year, total inflation-adjusted government receipts will likely be 23% above 2003 when the Bush tax cuts were signed into law.
Original Article (http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pdupont/?id=110008699)
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Anyone that was awake during the 200o SC primaries knows that Rove "paperboyed" (sent out anonymous flyers claiming that McCain had a Black lovechild. It is of course, true that he did adopt a Bengali girl from an orphanage who is indeed black. This was in severtal magazines (New Yorker, Vanity Fair) as well as the Miami Herald at the time. If you don;t believe it, well there is a lot of true things you won;t believe. But that does not make it untrue.
No ,anyone who is paying attention knows that this is an unsupported accusation.
If you accept it is isprobly because you like the sound of it , not because there was ever any evidence of it.
You must really hate Barak Obama for makeing nice with Hillary Clinton after Bill and Hill dumped on him , is that how it works?