DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: BSB on November 08, 2008, 04:59:23 AM
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I didn't even know he was still alive.
BSB
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Son: Billy Graham's work with presidents is ending
Billy Graham's work as a pastor to presidents is coming to an end, but he is praying for Barack Obama as the nation's next leader begins his work, Graham's son said Friday on the aging evangelist's 90th birthday.
Franklin Graham said in an interview that his father's mind remains sharp even as his body continues to fail. But the preacher who has counseled every president beginning with Eisenhower is not in line to mentor Obama.
"My father feels like his time and day for that is over," Franklin Graham said. "But he would certainly like to meet (Obama) and pray with him."
Graham's views of the world are still respected in White House circles. Republican presidential candidate John McCain visited Graham at his mountainside home during the campaign, and Obama tried to meet Graham but wasn't able to do so because of the preacher's poor health.
Though never partisan in his preaching, Billy Graham is a registered Democrat. His son expressed concern about Obama's views on abortion and gay marriage - an issue Franklin Graham raised in a meeting with the Illinois senator - saying that he and his father are conservatives who believe the Bible speaks clearly on those issues.
"President-elect Obama heard our position," Franklin Graham said. "And I told him that this was very difficult for us and hard for us. It's a moral issue that we just can't back down on."
"But he's our president-elect, and those positions that he holds that are contrary to Biblical teaching, I hope that God will change his heart," said Graham, who now heads the Charlotte-based Billy Graham Evangelistic Association.
http://news.mobile.msn.com/en-us/articles.aspx?afid=1&aid=27594570 (http://news.mobile.msn.com/en-us/articles.aspx?afid=1&aid=27594570)
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It has never seemed to me that most presidents have actually WANTED Billy Graham's advice, and were pressured by publicity into meeting with him.
Billy Graham's motto seems to have been "Every one has a right to my opinion", and he was determined to give it, welcomed or not.
Here is George Carlin's fun take on abortion:
http://www.videosift.com/video/George-Carlin-Pro-Life-is-Anti-Woman (http://www.videosift.com/video/George-Carlin-Pro-Life-is-Anti-Woman)
George is great at explaining such things, I think.
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It has never seemed to me that most presidents have actually WANTED Billy Graham's advice, and were pressured by publicity into meeting with him.
Billy Graham's motto seems to have been "Every one has a right to my opinion", and he was determined to give it, welcomed or not.
Here is George Carlin's fun take on abortion:
http://www.videosift.com/video/George-Carlin-Pro-Life-is-Anti-Woman (http://www.videosift.com/video/George-Carlin-Pro-Life-is-Anti-Woman)
George is great at explaining such things, I think.
George was a funny man, but to make light of such a subject is not cool.
However, typical of the male liberal comics.
Frankly, I like Cosby's one man show where he describes the birth of his child.
Sadly, his one boy was murdered.
Bill Cosby was a class act.
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I didn't even know he was still alive.
BSB
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Son: Billy Graham's work with presidents is ending
Billy Graham's work as a pastor to presidents is coming to an end, but he is praying for Barack Obama as the nation's next leader begins his work, Graham's son said Friday on the aging evangelist's 90th birthday.
Franklin Graham said in an interview that his father's mind remains sharp even as his body continues to fail. But the preacher who has counseled every president beginning with Eisenhower is not in line to mentor Obama.
"My father feels like his time and day for that is over," Franklin Graham said. "But he would certainly like to meet (Obama) and pray with him."
Graham's views of the world are still respected in White House circles. Republican presidential candidate John McCain visited Graham at his mountainside home during the campaign, and Obama tried to meet Graham but wasn't able to do so because of the preacher's poor health.
Though never partisan in his preaching, Billy Graham is a registered Democrat. His son expressed concern about Obama's views on abortion and gay marriage - an issue Franklin Graham raised in a meeting with the Illinois senator - saying that he and his father are conservatives who believe the Bible speaks clearly on those issues.
"President-elect Obama heard our position," Franklin Graham said. "And I told him that this was very difficult for us and hard for us. It's a moral issue that we just can't back down on."
"But he's our president-elect, and those positions that he holds that are contrary to Biblical teaching, I hope that God will change his heart," said Graham, who now heads the Charlotte-based Billy Graham Evangelistic Association.
http://news.mobile.msn.com/en-us/articles.aspx?afid=1&aid=27594570 (http://news.mobile.msn.com/en-us/articles.aspx?afid=1&aid=27594570)
I think he one of the most genuine believers in Jesus the Christ. I admire him. He walked the talk. Good for him. He has lived a rich life.
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Graham was quite fond of foisting himself on every president he could. Only Eisenhower had the guts to shoo him away. It not like most of them actually wanted to pray with him: most of them knew that they would face disdain from Graham's fans if they declined him.
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Graham was quite fond of foisting himself on every president he could. Only Eisenhower had the guts to shoo him away. It not like most of them actually wanted to pray with him: most of them knew that they would face disdain from Graham's fans if they declined him.
You have evidence that Bill Graham "was quite fond of foisting himself on every president HE COULD"????
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"was quite fond of foisting himself on every president HE COULD"Huh?
Eisenhower refused to see him.
Every president since Eisenhower invited him in. Graham invited himself. He had a column in most daily newspapers called "My Answer".
Graham was a PR man for Jesus. H could have been a regular preacher, but instead, he decided to create a mass movement, with always a regular moment in which the sheep were invited to come down to the altar and be born again.
The deal was, that the presidents since Eisenhower were made to feel that if they declined to pray with Graham, they were rejecting Christianity. Graham always offered to come to the White House, and sent his aides to return at regularly scheduled, well-publicized intervals.
Graham had a right to do what he did, but I have a right to consider it unethical.
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"The deal was, that the presidents since Eisenhower were made to feel that if they declined to pray with Graham, they were rejecting Christianity."
Where is there documented proof of this statement >>>they were ALL made to feel <<<<<<
No group or individual can MAKE another individual feel anything that they don't want to feel. ...I question your statement in terms of being authentic and factual.
Perhaps this is your personal polished version called a judgement.
Maybe can you google for me factual documented evidence on every president's feelings about Graham since Eisenhowere? Can you back up your statement?
Not to mention the point you make that he was unethical .....and for so many DECADES??
This just might be your opinion. If they were so outraged, someone would have stopped his visits at one point in time, don't you think?
Graham had a right to do what he did, but I have a right to consider it unethical.
I think you are exercising your right to be negative about Christianity.
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Graham had a right to do what he did, but I have a right to consider it unethical.
I think you are exercising your right to be negative about Christianity.
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There are many commendable things about Christianity. I think that there are many hospitals and schools that would not exist without Christians having founded them.
What is negative about Christianity --or Islam, or any religion -- is when people foist it on others. THis is worse when guilt is used, becaue there is no good defense against guilt. Sometimes is is just a "let us all bow our heads in prayer" I can live with that. What I really resented was being forced to spend so many summers in %^$# Vacation Bible School. Christians like to compel people through guilt to do things or to to compel their children to do things. "Go to Vacation Bible School: you're breaking your mother's heart---after all she has done for you."
So then the poor kid goes, and the teacher asks questions and you have to guess at the answers, because they only want that one true answer. No, your doggie and kitty can't go to Heaven, No, there were no dinosaurs on the Ark, No, women do not need to wear veils even if Paul said so.
I don't think the presidents in question were forced to feel anything. But they were forced to admit Graham to prayer breakfasts, because otherwise Graham would have publicized that our president has no time for God, let us all pray for him until he sees the light. This is worse than inviting His Holyness to the White House, and that is why most of them did it.
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George is great at explaining such things, I think.
Except in this monologue he got quite a bit wrong.
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George is great at explaining such things, I think.
Except in this monologue he got quite a bit wrong.
Comedy never gets anything quite 100% correct which is why it is comedy. But humorless anals could never grasp anything like that
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Except in this monologue he got quite a bit wrong.
Like what, for example?
The part where he says that if men could get pregnant, abortion would be a slam-dunk?
The part where he says that "pro-life is anti-woman"?
Seems to me like he was spot-on.
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Like what, for example?
Stuff like "they care about them when they're in the womb, but don't care about them after they're born" and "conservatives like to kill doctors".
Things like that.
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Like what, for example?
Stuff like "they care about them when they're in the womb, but don't care about them after they're born" and "conservatives like to kill doctors".
Things like that.
That first part is really too mild. Evangelical Pro-lifers ( which is who he is referring to , not conservatives) would much rather kill people as adults in death row which they support when they are fully conscious rather than as unfeeling embryos . Also pro-lifers do prefer killing doctors that perform abortions than embryos .
http://www.armyofgod.com/danholmanHOLOCAUSTRESOLUTIONPROJECT.html (http://www.armyofgod.com/danholmanHOLOCAUSTRESOLUTIONPROJECT.html)
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I don't think most conservatives like to kill doctors. Some have said that they want to imprison doctors who perform abortions,and there have been attacks on doctors and other abortion workers.
I don't think that all pro-lifers don't care about unwanted babies after they are born, either. But some don't. Many more abortions would be prevented by a better organized adoption support group.
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than as unfeeling embryos .
Oh?
It would comfort me a bit to know that a fetus was not made to suffer , how do you know this?
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than as unfeeling embryos .
Oh?
It would comfort me a bit to know that a fetus was not made to suffer , how do you know this?
How do you know otherwise? Did you take a poll? I at least know for certain that adult humans strongly prefer not to die.And scientific evidence says that up to 90% feel pain at execution.
Special Report on Death - New Scientist
Oct 10, 2007 ... Inadequate anaesthesia means almost 90% of convicts could feel pain during execution and over 40% may be conscious, a new US study suggests ...
www.newscientist.com/channel/opinion/death (http://www.newscientist.com/channel/opinion/death) -
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Special Report on Death - New Scientist
Oct 10, 2007 ... Inadequate anaesthesia means almost 90% of convicts could feel pain during execution and over 40% may be conscious, a new US study suggests ...
www.newscientist.com/channel/opinion/death (http://www.newscientist.com/channel/opinion/death) -
How does that compare to the percentage of victims who feel pain?
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Special Report on Death - New Scientist
Oct 10, 2007 ... Inadequate anaesthesia means almost 90% of convicts could feel pain during execution and over 40% may be conscious, a new US study suggests ...
www.newscientist.com/channel/opinion/death (http://www.newscientist.com/channel/opinion/death) -
How does that compare to the percentage of victims who feel pain?
How does it answer the question I asked?
If he can state with certainty that a Fetus feels no pain as it is dismembered or scalded to death , I would like to know how this was determined.
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Who scalds foetuses to death?
The nervous system develops rather slowly. A zygote with no nerve calls could not feel any pain.
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Who scalds foetuses to death?
The nervous system develops rather slowly. A zygote with no nerve calls could not feel any pain.
One of the methods is to inject a salt solution into the amniotic fluid, the fetus breathes this saline into its lungs and struggles in its death throws untill the salt in its system reaches toxic levels.
If you think the word "scald " is a poor discriptive for this tecnique , I am ready to entertain suggestions.
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The nervous system develops rather slowly. A zygote with no nerve calls could not feel any pain.
The brain and nervous system begins developing in week 3 and is pretty much complete by week 25. Week 25 is when conscious control of the brain over the body begins.
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Scald refers to hot water, not salt.
Not sure if anything a zygote could do could be described as "struggling".
If a foetus felt no more pain than a trout or a perch you just hooked, or a roach you just squished, would that be acceptable?
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Scald refers to hot water, not salt.
Not sure if anything a zygote could do could be described as "struggling".
If a foetus felt no more pain than a trout or a perch you just hooked, or a roach you just squished, would that be acceptable?
No that would not be acceptable at all.
Just a few years ago the State of Georgia made animal cruelty a felony , but there is no limit to the pain you can cause someone who is a few days shy of being officially human.
If I forced a salt solution into the lungs of a dog and was caught at it you might have to go to Atlanta to visit me.
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The nervous system develops rather slowly. A zygote with no nerve calls could not feel any pain.
The brain and nervous system begins developing in week 3 and is pretty much complete by week 25. Week 25 is when conscious control of the brain over the body begins.
Wrong , DR AMI- Why dont you just stop giving out unsourced misinformation?
http://discovermagazine.com/2005/dec/fetus-feel-pain (http://discovermagazine.com/2005/dec/fetus-feel-pain)
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You can goosh all the roaches you want, fling lobsters into boiling water, harpoon, hook, and suffocate fish and frogs and no one even winces. Not to mention what goes on with pigs, cattle, chicken and turkeys every day.
This cruelty issue is hardly any sort of objective one.
If I forced a salt solution into the lungs of a dog and was caught at it you might have to go to Atlanta to visit me.
If the dog was a foetal puppy, and you were a vet, then you would have a valid comparison here. And the State of Georgia would not do a thing, because that foetal puppy is not yet an animal.
Surely Georgia has prisons in other places than Atlanta.
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............. because that foetal puppy is not yet an animal.
Oh?
What definition or criteria of "animal" does a foetal puppy not meet?
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The nervous system develops rather slowly. A zygote with no nerve calls could not feel any pain.
The brain and nervous system begins developing in week 3 and is pretty much complete by week 25. Week 25 is when conscious control of the brain over the body begins.
Wrong , DR AMI- Why dont you just stop giving out unsourced misinformation?
http://discovermagazine.com/2005/dec/fetus-feel-pain (http://discovermagazine.com/2005/dec/fetus-feel-pain)
The use of fetal anesthesia is justified during other surgeries, Rosen says, to block the production of stress hormones. In the case of abortion, he says, it is not necessary and puts the mother at increased risk of adverse reactions, and even death.
What a bunch of weasel words.
A feotous you want to keep may need anestsia to prevent stress , but one you want to get rid of is only reacting in reflex.
So what produces stress hormones if it isn't stress?
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The nervous system develops rather slowly. A zygote with no nerve calls could not feel any pain.
The brain and nervous system begins developing in week 3 and is pretty much complete by week 25. Week 25 is when conscious control of the brain over the body begins.
Wrong , DR AMI- Why dont you just stop giving out unsourced misinformation?
http://discovermagazine.com/2005/dec/fetus-feel-pain (http://discovermagazine.com/2005/dec/fetus-feel-pain)
The use of fetal anesthesia is justified during other surgeries, Rosen says, to block the production of stress hormones. In the case of abortion, he says, it is not necessary and puts the mother at increased risk of adverse reactions, and even death.
What a bunch of weasel words.
A feotous you want to keep may need anestsia to prevent stress , but one you want to get rid of is only reacting in reflex.
So what produces stress hormones if it isn't stress?
Geeesus - This place is full of RWRN'spracticing medicine without a licence
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Wrong , DR AMI- Why dont you just stop giving out unsourced misinformation?
Why don't you just ask for the source?
http://health.allrefer.com/health/fetal-development-info.html (http://health.allrefer.com/health/fetal-development-info.html)
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Oh?
What definition or criteria of "animal" does a foetal puppy not meet?
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It's not an animal YET. Just as a fetus is not a human YET.
It can't fetch, catch a frisbee, eat Alpo, or bark. If I were petting a puppyfetus, everyone would surely think I was insane.
At most it is a potential dog, a potential animal.
You might get the Georgia Supreme Court to tell you a more detailed answer if you made a test case of it.