DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Christians4LessGvt on November 30, 2008, 12:17:17 PM
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Indian air and missile forces on war footing,
Pakistani armored units diverted from Afghan border
DEBKAfile Special Report
November 30, 2008, 2:17 PM (GMT+02:00)
(http://www.debka.com/photos/s_5746.jpg)
Indian Air Force
DEBKAfile's military sources report that on Sunday, Nov. 30, Asia's two nuclear powers, India and Pakistan, took their first steps towards a conventional war. India, claiming evidence of Pakistan's involvement in the Islamist terrorist assault on Mumbai, placed its air and missile units on war preparedness, while Pakistan, disclaiming the charge, diverted its armed divisions from the Afghan border to its frontier with India.
Military experts fear a full-blown war could spill over into combat with tactical nuclear weapons.
For the Indian government, the last straw was the admission by Azam Amir Kasab, aged 21, the only terrorist known to have been captured by Indian forces, that Lashkar e-Taiba was behind the assault which claimed 174 lives, injured hundreds and devastated India's financial capital.
This Kashmiri group has links to both al Qaeda and the Pakistani Inter-Services Intelligence agency.
From its outset on Wednesday, Nov. 26, the scale, coordination and clockwork targeting of the assault clearly betrayed the hand of a major national intelligence agency. Evidence also mounted that the attackers had reached Mumbai by boat from Karachi.
Five months ago, Taliban suicide killers attacked the Indian embassy in Kabul, claiming 60 lives including that of the Indian military attach?. The New Delhi government then found leads to Pakistan's clandestine service as the prime mover behind the outrage. Washington came up with the same proofs.
The Manmohan Singh government sees the Mumbai assault as a second, escalated Pakistani act of war-by-terror and cannot afford to avoid a strong, immediate response - particularly with a general election around the corner next May. If Singh braves the media and public howls for Pakistani blood and shows the same restraint as he did after the Kabul attack, he will lose his seat.
Domestic opinion is goading the New Delhi to act tough after what is perceived as the poor, slow and unprofessional performance of the police and special forces in quelling the terrorists. Indian commandoes were brought in 10 hours after the terrorists took over and it took them 60 hours to finally gain control of the three hostage sites Saturday, Nov. 29. Sunday, home minister Shivraj Patil resigned in response to the clamor followed by national security advisor MK Narayanan.
India and Pakistan have fought three wars and barely avoided a fourth in 2001.
President George Bush and his successor Barack Obama cannot hope for much headway in defusing Indian-Pakistan tension. With only a few weeks left in the White House, Bush does not have much leverage and Obama even less for pulling the two adversaries apart. While campaigning, the president-elect pledged to work to mend the fences between India and Pakistan and broker their Kashmir conflict. In the present climate, neither is looking for a mediator.
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Interesting. So if the majority Hindu Indians nuke first, you will consider it an appropriate response to Mumbai and thus "caused by Islamists?"
Indian air and missile forces on war footing,
Pakistani armored units diverted from Afghan border
DEBKAfile Special Report
November 30, 2008, 2:17 PM (GMT+02:00)
(http://www.debka.com/photos/s_5746.jpg)
Indian Air Force
DEBKAfile's military sources report that on Sunday, Nov. 30, Asia's two nuclear powers, India and Pakistan, took their first steps towards a conventional war. India, claiming evidence of Pakistan's involvement in the Islamist terrorist assault on Mumbai, placed its air and missile units on war preparedness, while Pakistan, disclaiming the charge, diverted its armed divisions from the Afghan border to its frontier with India.
Military experts fear a full-blown war could spill over into combat with tactical nuclear weapons.
For the Indian government, the last straw was the admission by Azam Amir Kasab, aged 21, the only terrorist known to have been captured by Indian forces, that Lashkar e-Taiba was behind the assault which claimed 174 lives, injured hundreds and devastated India's financial capital.
This Kashmiri group has links to both al Qaeda and the Pakistani Inter-Services Intelligence agency.
From its outset on Wednesday, Nov. 26, the scale, coordination and clockwork targeting of the assault clearly betrayed the hand of a major national intelligence agency. Evidence also mounted that the attackers had reached Mumbai by boat from Karachi.
Five months ago, Taliban suicide killers attacked the Indian embassy in Kabul, claiming 60 lives including that of the Indian military attach?. The New Delhi government then found leads to Pakistan's clandestine service as the prime mover behind the outrage. Washington came up with the same proofs.
The Manmohan Singh government sees the Mumbai assault as a second, escalated Pakistani act of war-by-terror and cannot afford to avoid a strong, immediate response - particularly with a general election around the corner next May. If Singh braves the media and public howls for Pakistani blood and shows the same restraint as he did after the Kabul attack, he will lose his seat.
Domestic opinion is goading the New Delhi to act tough after what is perceived as the poor, slow and unprofessional performance of the police and special forces in quelling the terrorists. Indian commandoes were brought in 10 hours after the terrorists took over and it took them 60 hours to finally gain control of the three hostage sites Saturday, Nov. 29. Sunday, home minister Shivraj Patil resigned in response to the clamor followed by national security advisor MK Narayanan.
India and Pakistan have fought three wars and barely avoided a fourth in 2001.
President George Bush and his successor Barack Obama cannot hope for much headway in defusing Indian-Pakistan tension. With only a few weeks left in the White House, Bush does not have much leverage and Obama even less for pulling the two adversaries apart. While campaigning, the president-elect pledged to work to mend the fences between India and Pakistan and broker their Kashmir conflict. In the present climate, neither is looking for a mediator.
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Will Islamists cause a nuclear war even soon than I thought?
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How soon do you thing this would happen?
I am guessing never.
Bush does not have much leverage and Obama even less for pulling the two adversaries apart. While campaigning, the president-elect pledged to work to mend the fences between India and Pakistan and broker their Kashmir conflict. In the present climate, neither is looking for a mediator.
The people of these counties don't want a war. I don't think their leaders do, either.
Debka has a really good reputation for getting it all wrong.
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"So if the majority Hindu Indians nuke first, you will consider it an
appropriate response to Mumbai and thus "caused by Islamists?"
No if Islamist continue targeting innocent civilians in India and really all over the globe
and a major war is the result of the Islamist targting innocent civilians and that war
leads to a nuclear conflict, yes I will blame the Islamist. And I am sure you
will continue to blame everyone except those that are targeting innocent
civilians in their quest to impose their religion on the world. I for one would
not shed any tears if India decides to vaporize the Pakistan tribal areas
that are a major source of these monsters of Islam.
(http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/images/h1-theaustralian-logo.gif)
Religious head incited killers
Bruce Loudon, South Asia correspondent | December 01, 2008
THE al-Qa'ida-linked Lashkar-e-Toiba terrorists suspected over the Mumbai massacre were trained in Muzaffarabad, capital of Pakistan-controlled Kashmir, and were incited by speeches from their leader in Lahore.
As the sole surviving terrorist was interrogated in Mumbai, security sources told The Australian that 10 terrorists were picked by LET for the suicide mission.
They were ordered to "kill until your last breath" and murder up to 5000 people.
They did so after provocative speeches by Hafiz Mohammed Saeed last month in Lahore, capital of the Punjab.
Saeed, described as LET's supreme religious and political head, declared in one speech: "The only language India understands is that of force, and that is the language it must be talked to in."
The email claiming responsibility for the Mumbai attack minutes after it started last Wednesday was generated on a computer based in Pakistan.
And a satellite telephone captured from the terrorists revealed calls made to numbers in Pakistan during the attacks, reports said.
Officials said the terrorists' route to Mumbai had been recorded on GPS co-ordinates contained in the satellite phones.
Sources said the 10 terrorists -- most of whom were believed to be Pakistanis -- were ordered to undergo training to attack Mumbai.
The captured gunman, Ajmal Amir Kamal, 21, reportedly told intelligence sources the group had trained openly in Muzaffarabad before heading to the nearby Mangala dam for lessons in marine commando techniques.
The group then visited Rawalpindi, which adjoins Islamabad, the Pakistan capital and site of the Pakistan army headquarters.
From there, the group took a train to the port city of Karachi, where, heavily armed, they boarded a freighter for the trip to Mumbai. Along the way, they became nervous about Indian coastguard activity and almost aborted the mission.
They "dragooned" a less conspicuous, passing fishing boat into service, shooting dead four of its crew members. The skipper of the fishing boat and another crew member took them closer to Mumbai before they, too, were killed. One was decapitated and the other had his throat slit.
Close to shore, they transferred to small speedboats for the run into the two landing points they had selected in Mumbai - Sassoon Docks and Badhwar Park, on Cuff Parade.
Conflicting evidence obtained by intelligence agencies suggests that the group may have had local support, and that one or more of its members may have been staying locally, possibly even in the Taj Mahal hotel.
A British link to the attacks was raised over the weekend when a senior Indian official claimed that Britons were among the militants.
Vilasrao Deshmukh, the chief minister of Maharashtra state, in which Mumbai lies, was quoted on an Indian television station as saying that British citizens had been detained.
British MP Patrick Mercer, a former Tory security spokesman, said he had been given information that at least two of the terrorists had credit cards and other identifying documents that linked them to Dewsbury, West Yorkshire, in northeast England.
The claims, however, were not substantiated by official British sources, who said there was no evidence "at this stage" that Britons had taken part in the attacks, although they acknowledged that events were "moving fast" and more information was emerging about the nationality of the terrorists.
MI5 and British counter-terrorist police are keeping in close touch with their counterparts in India and are alert to the possibility that Britons with Pakistani origins might have been involved. Significant numbers of young British Pakistanis have taken part in terrorist training in Pakistan.
British Prime Minister Gordon Brown said that there was no evidence of Britons being involved, and the Foreign Secretary David Miliband said: "We obviously will want to work very closely with the Indians but it is too early to say whether or not any of them are British."
Malaysian police are investigating reports that Malaysian-issued credit cards were found in the belongings of the terrorists involved in the Mumbai attacks.
Home Minister Syed Hamid Albar said Malaysia had no links with the terrorists, responding to an Indian report that nine of the gunmen claimed to be Malaysian students when they travelled to Mumbai several months ago.
Terror analyst Praveen Swami said that at a meeting of key LET leaders in Lahore on October 19, LET leader Saeed, who insists he is only head of the Jamaat-ud-Dawa welfare organisation, made plain his view of Pakistan's neighbour.
"India, he claimed, was building dams in (Indian-controlled) Jammu and Kashmir to choke Pakistan's water supplies and cripple its agriculture," Mr Swami reported Saeed as saying.
"Earlier, in an October 6 speech, Saeed claimed that India had 'made a deal with the United States to send 150,000 Indian troops to Afghanistan' and that it agreed to support the US in its existential war against Islam.
"Finally, in a sermon to a congregation at the Jamia Masjid al-Qudsia (mosque) in Lahore at the end of October, Saeed proclaimed that there was an 'ongoing war in the world between Islam and its enemies'.
"He claimed that 'crusaders of the East and West have united in a cohesive onslaught against Muslims'."
Additional reporting: AFP,
The Sunday Times
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24731818-2703,00.html (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24731818-2703,00.html)
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I for one would not shed any tears if India decides to vaporize the Pakistan tribal areas
that are a major source of these monsters of Islam.
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You are as bloodthirsty a soul as any Islamacist if you really believe this. The Indians do not have enough bombs to "vaporize" an area of may hundreds of square miles. Look at a map, why don't you?
You and Professor do not see a distinction between catching the guilty parties and trying them and
wiping out a population of women, children and innocent men, just because some others have not seen fit to love Jesus as you do.
When exactly do you think the Indians and Pakistanis are going to start a nuclear war, then?
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The Indians do not have enough bombs to "vaporize" an area of may hundreds of square miles. Look at a map, why don't you?
How do you know that?
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The Indians do not have enough bombs to "vaporize" an area of may hundreds of square miles. Look at a map, why don't you?
How do you know that?
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Again, look at a map. I suppose a bomb might take out Peshawar, but not an entire region.
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Again, look at a map. I suppose a bomb might take out Peshawar, but not an entire region.
Some estimates of their nuclear arsenal go up to 200 warheads. Minimum estimates are 100. They've been producing nuclear arms since the late '50s. India also maintains a stock of materials to rapidly assemble more warheads, in the span of days to weeks. They don't have "a bomb", they have many.
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"So if the majority Hindu Indians nuke first, you will consider it an
appropriate response to Mumbai and thus "caused by Islamists?"
No if Islamist continue targeting innocent civilians in India and really all over the globe
and a major war is the result of the Islamist targting innocent civilians and that war
leads to a nuclear conflict, yes I will blame the Islamist. And I am sure you
will continue to blame everyone except those that are targeting innocent
civilians in their quest to impose their religion on the world. I for one would
not shed any tears if India decides to vaporize the Pakistan tribal areas
that are a major source of these monsters of Islam.
I would blame the asshole who pushes the button launching the nukes, for ANY reason under ANY circumstances.
But a study of India and Pakistan's history would demonstrate to you that if those two countries get to this point, it has more to do with the long-standing conflict between the countries than anything else.
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I agree that India could kill a whole lot of Pakistanis with bombs. This would be seriously unwise, as it would cause India problems with the rest of the world and almost certainly would cause the downfall of any government that dropped 200 bombs. To "vaporize" the tribal areas would require more than that. As I said, it's a large area, and most of those vaporized are not terrorists or dedicated enemies of India, but poor peasants trying to survive on subsistance agriculture.
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>>I agree that India could kill a whole lot of Pakistanis with bombs. This would be seriously unwise, as it would cause India problems with the rest of the world ... <<
India doesn't think like liberals so they don't give a damn what the rest of the world thinks if they respond to what they consider an act of war. Only liberals are stupid enough to put the worlds opinion ahead of their own countrymen. India knows the US has a "Blame America First" commander in chief waiting in the wings, so they have nothing to fear from us. I'm sure president Barrack Hussein Obama will stomp his feet, shake his fist, and be ignored by the rest of the world for the next four years.
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Indian air and missile forces on war footing,
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while Pakistan, disclaiming the charge, diverted its armed divisions from the Afghan border to its frontier with India.
If this takes pressure off of the Al Quieda forces in the Packistan Afgan border area , then it might have been a success in the eyes of its originators. If it also pulls Indian forces out of Kashmir doubly so.
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I for one would not shed any tears if India decides to vaporize the Pakistan tribal areas
that are a major source of these monsters of Islam.
================================
You are as bloodthirsty a soul as any Islamacist if you really believe this. The Indians do not have enough bombs to "vaporize" an area of may hundreds of square miles. Look at a map, why don't you?
You and Professor do not see a distinction between catching the guilty parties and trying them and
wiping out a population of women, children and innocent men, just because some others have not seen fit to love Jesus as you do.
When exactly do you think the Indians and Pakistanis are going to start a nuclear war, then?
The maximum effect from the fewest bombs would be to attack the launching , storage and production facilitys of Packistans nucleir force . The blast casulatys might be relitively low , but the casualtys and forced evacuation caused by the fallout would cover a tremendous area and potentially last a long time , especially if a reactor were targeted by a ground burst.
This principal applies as well to India as Packistan , as soon as one or the other becomes certain that the event is inevitable or unavoidable or much more likely than not , it becomes an important advantage to strike first , thereby minimiseing the potential for return strikes.
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"So if the majority Hindu Indians nuke first, you will consider it an
appropriate response to Mumbai and thus "caused by Islamists?"
No if Islamist continue targeting innocent civilians in India and really all over the globe
and a major war is the result of the Islamist targeting innocent civilians and that war
leads to a nuclear conflict, yes I will blame the Islamist. And I am sure you
will continue to blame everyone except those that are targeting innocent
civilians in their quest to impose their religion on the world. I for one would
not shed any tears if India decides to vaporize the Pakistan tribal areas
that are a major source of these monsters of Islam.
I would blame the asshole who pushes the button launching the nukes, for ANY reason under ANY circumstances.
But a study of India and Pakistan's history would demonstrate to you that if those two countries get to this point, it has more to do with the longstanding conflict between the countries than anything else.
I think that India and Pakistan have become vulnerable to agents provocateurs, Pakistanis are so suspicious of India that they cannot devote all of their energy to any project that would lessen their preparation for an Indian attack.
And vice versa?