DebateGate

General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: BT on May 22, 2010, 11:07:26 PM

Title: The New Old German Problem
Post by: BT on May 22, 2010, 11:07:26 PM
The New Old German Problem

Reflections on Germany

Munich ? I?ve been walking the last two days through Munich. Much of the city core was bombed out by the allies by spring 1945. Yet today there is little evidence of such destruction. The museums are among the best in the world, the streets and parks spotless, the infrastructure superb, and the people as hard at work as ever. To walk an urban street in Germany is a different experience from say in Athens or Istanbul ? traffic follows law, pedestrians are respected, horns are used rarely, trash is absent. In other words, things work and work well.

Such observations sound stereotypical these days, but to even the casual observer the difference between life in Germany and much of the eastern and southern Mediterranean seems far greater than the divide between a Minnesota and Mississippi. For someone who has lived in Greece and occasionally visits Germany, it becomes increasingly clearer each year why the European Union won?t work. Germans work and create wealth. Yet  under the present system, they do not receive commensurate psychological rewards ? and they increasingly receive insufficient material compensation as well.

And history shows us that an unhappy Germany is a very dangerous thing indeed.

Memory Lane

Let me explain by a brief historical detour.

After the unification of Germany in 1871 and its subsequent alliances over the next decades with Austria, Europe was not sure how to handle its powerful German-speaking center. In the twenty-first century it is politically incorrect to suggest that culture matters, though most privately grant that the German work ethic, cohesiveness, and competence all lead to economic and financial clout that eventually ends in superior political ? and ultimately military ? power.

In the last century and a half, there have been all sorts of ways to check that German dynamism from spilling over its borders. The idea of a two-front British/French/Russian alliance was supposed to dissuade Germany from expanding its sphere of power either westward or eastward. Nonetheless, wars usually followed, and it was no solace to the millions who perished in World Wars I and II that such anti-German containment, largely aided  by the entry of the United States into two wars, eventually led to the defeat of Germany ? for a time.

Try, try again

After the war, a divided Germany,  shared European fear of Soviet communism, and a nuclear France and Britain all in various ways ensured there were supposed to be no more worries about Germany for a half-century.

But with the fall of the Berlin Wall, and the implosion of the Soviet Union, a newly ascendant Germany ? once the costs of East German unification were absorbed ? was supposed to be integrated into the new utopian European Union with it common currency, the euro.

That is, the unstated idea was that natural German economic strength could be harnessed through new tariff-free markets for its export-driven economy, whose goods and services would help bring eastern and southern Europe up to northern European standards of living. Germany would be captain, but still a team member, and all would pay homage to its star for leading the team to victory.

So cash-flush German banks loaned the European poorer nations easy money to buy all things German. The EU would both guarantee the debts, and reap the benefits at large ? as Greece, Italy, Portugal, and Spain would begin to see their infrastructure and lifestyles match those of France, Germany and the Netherlands. Southern siestas, strikes, tax evasion, and low worker productivity would all be nullified by northern European largess.

The Supposed End of History

As a result, instead of the old deadly inter-European rivalry, for a while a continental culture did indeed emerge. Prosperous Europeans from the Mediterranean to the Baltic  embraced socialism, utopianism abroad, childlessness, agnosticism, and a fashionable anti-Americanism, ensuring no more 19th-century nationalism or 20th-century wars.  At least all that was what we were lectured about for the last twenty years by European chauvinists and dreamy American liberals.

Yet such dreams were always predicated on some dubious propositions.

Think of an Americo

First, there has never been any sort of unified currency without commensurate political unification. Imagine a NAFTA-like Americo, a new currency that would try to absorb the American and Canadian dollars with the Mexican peso. Well, enough said.

Lifestyles and culture are not quite the same in Yucatan and Toronto. In such unworkable financial systems, the poorer leach off the wealthier and find plenty of rationalizations why they should. In an analogous example, the president of Mexico just left the United States, after making the political and media rounds, lecturing us on why his own corrupt government has some sort of divine right to export half-a-million of its own poor to the United States. Imagine Mexico?s audacity had we the same currency.

An Incredibly Shrinking U.S.

Second, the natural inclination of the United States is not international engagement but a sort of isolationism. The Cold War interrupted that tradition, but slowly we are seeing it return under Obama, especially in the unhappiness over Iraq and Afghanistan and a desire for more social spending and entitlements at home. I don?t think our first Pacific President wants to, or is competent and credible to, advise Europe about much of anything.

Yet we sometimes forget the third leg of the old NATO equation: America in, Russia out ? Germany down. Without fear of a Russian Empire, and with America turning inward, it is not all that clear there is any force that cares much to worry about German restlessness. A broke Europe is not about to turn to a broke Britain or a broke United States to complain about German financial unease. And Germans are increasingly not going to listen to either if they did. NATO exists only because of American arms and I suppose German money. But it is not doing well in Afghanistan, and most of its members will soon be cutting back on what little they now spend on their militaries.

In short, what will happen with Germany when it is lectured by the French, insulted by its debtor dependencies in southern Europe, and starting to become angry that only its own work ethic and productivity ? not some grandiose platitudes about the EU ? keep Europe going?

The Unthinkable?

Very soon German workers are going to grasp that all the financial reserves they piled away the last two decades from not doing what a Spain or Italy did are essentially gone. Someone in Munich worked 40 hours a week until age 67 for someone in Athens not to ? and for someone in Athens to demand that someone in Munich do so or else. The idea that nations like Greece, both overtly and implicitly, insult nations like Germany has no basis in historical terms.

In short?

Even European bankers now claim the euro is suspect. The European Union may well devolve into something other than its present form within a few years.  NATO is an alliance mostly in name. Germany is angry. So far all the traditional restraints upon its pique ? allied military rivals on its two borders, a divided country, fear of a nuclear Soviet Union, incorporation within the EU and NATO ? are either nonexistent or increasingly problematic.

If it should choose, Germany could go nuclear in six months, its arsenal reflective of a country that makes Mercedes and BMWs. That is not so wild an idea in an age when unstable nations like Iran and North Korea boast of their arsenals and their aggression, while others such as Turkey and Brazil flaunt U.S. faculty-lounge sermons on non-proliferation.

If Iran should go nuclear ? and I think it will within a year or two ? we should imagine that a Brazil, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Syria would too. As the European Union collapses, as third-rate nations become nuclear, and as the United States abdicates its postwar role in ensuring the safety and security of the West, why would Germany continue to subsidize southern Europe while receiving mostly blame for its efforts, while its airspace would be in theory vulnerable to the likes of a theocratic Iran?

Back to the 19th century?

In a sane world, a financially solvent United States would now step up to the plate, reassure Germany of both its long-standing financial and military support, and seek through its friendship and alliance to deflect any natural German inclination to translate its economic power and present seething into something other than mere anger at the EU.

But we don?t live in a sane world. U.S.  finances are following the Greek example. President Obama either does not understand the West or does not care to.  To the new America, a Germany is no different from a Pakistan or Venezuela, just another member of the international community, no better or no worse than any other. Our commitment to NATO and the U.S. defense budget will soon be  redefined, as even more  entitlements along the lines of  the recent trillion-dollar health care plan are envisioned.

In other words, in such a vacuum, very soon, if we are not careful, we are going to have a German problem ? again.

http://pajamasmedia.com/victordavishanson/the-new-old-german-problem/?singlepage=true (http://pajamasmedia.com/victordavishanson/the-new-old-german-problem/?singlepage=true)
Title: Re: The New Old German Problem
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on May 23, 2010, 12:53:21 AM
wow BT....that was one interesting article!

some of my favs from the article:

"the poorer leach off the wealthier and find plenty of rationalizations why they should. In an analogous example,
the president of Mexico just left the United States, after making the political and media rounds, lecturing us on
why his own corrupt government has some sort of divine right to export half-a-million of its own poor to the
United States"


Very soon German workers are going to grasp that all the financial reserves they piled away the last two decades
from not doing what a Spain or Italy did are essentially gone. Someone in Munich worked 40 hours a week until
age 67 for someone in Athens not to


"Germany is angry"
Title: Re: The New Old German Problem
Post by: Plane on May 23, 2010, 01:01:43 AM
2015

US backs out of Nato and UN , resulting saveings allow Americans to enjoy a tax cut and a reduction in national debt.

Russia joins Nato and assumes a  leading role as if they could afford it.

US ,carrying a lighter load ,undergoes decades of prosperity , establishes colonys on asteroids where large gold mines are found. Irridium , Rodium ,eternium and unobtainium become US exports, gold becomes cheaper than lead and us arms manufacturerers start useing it for bullets.

Europe becomes even more socialist untill it colapses.

 
Title: Re: The New Old German Problem
Post by: Religious Dick on May 23, 2010, 06:54:06 AM

In other words, in such a vacuum, very soon, if we are not careful, we are going to have a German problem ? again.


A problem to whom?
Title: Re: The New Old German Problem
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on May 23, 2010, 09:59:41 AM
A problem to whom?

a problem to whomever gets in their way

just ask Russia how many they lost fighting this tiny country




Title: Re: The New Old German Problem
Post by: Michael Tee on May 23, 2010, 12:56:47 PM
Did anyone understand the article?  Germany and France, respective populations of 80 million and 65 million, do better than Greece (pop. 11 million.)  Wow, who woulda thunk?  Both big countries rich in natural resources, with centuries-old traditions of higher learning, science, research, heavy industry, etc., among the most prosperous in the world, and Greece a dirt-poor country, one of the poorest in Europe for most of the last century, subjected to Nazi occupation, followed by a devastating civil war.

Ahhh, but history and geography can't account for Greece's problems - -  only socialism can.  Yes socialism is why Greece is in the toilet but Germany isn't.  It's the famous German work ethic all over again.  Never mind that the average German worker enjoys from four to six weeks of paid annual vacation, it's their work ethic, dammit!!!
All in all, this was a pretty silly article.  Obviously the Greeks have really fucked up somewhere, mismanaged their economy on an almost (dare I say it?) mythic scale and just as obviously, the radical concept of a European Union still has a lot of kinks to work out.  To say that their economists and political theorists are way ahead of their American colleagues is probably like saying that Princeton and Yale are way ahead of the high school my kids went to, but I think they're at least equal to the task before them, which is bound to throw up more crises like the one we are now witnessing.  This author seems to have some primitive cartoon-level ideas (socialism bad, capitalism good, Germans strong, non-Germans weak) which serve as the explanation for every event he wishes to write about, and so we were treated to this little fantasy of his.

One day, I'd like to read a well-informed, sensible exposition of the current EU crisis, but this one doesn't even approach comic book level.
Title: Re: The New Old German Problem
Post by: Plane on May 23, 2010, 12:58:48 PM
Does New York bail out Lousiania and West Virginia?

Hey MT nice to have you back.
Title: Re: The New Old German Problem
Post by: Michael Tee on May 23, 2010, 01:09:23 PM
<<Does New York bail out Lousiania and West Virginia?>>

I dunno, Canada has Federal Equalization Payments, which are basically a way of transferring tax revenues from the richer to the poorer provinces.  There's gotta be some kind of equivalent system in the U.S.A., I'd think it's likely built into every federal system of government.

<<Hey MT nice to have you back.>>

Thanks, plane.
Title: Re: The New Old German Problem
Post by: Amianthus on May 23, 2010, 01:10:46 PM
Did anyone understand the article?  Germany and France, respective populations of 80 million and 65 million, do better than Greece (pop. 11 million.)  Wow, who woulda thunk?  Both big countries rich in natural resources, with centuries-old traditions of higher learning, science, research, heavy industry, etc., among the most prosperous in the world, and Greece a dirt-poor country, one of the poorest in Europe for most of the last century, subjected to Nazi occupation, followed by a devastating civil war.

Greece has a much older tradition of higher learning, science, research, etc. And it's core industry has always been shipping (going back thousands of years), which, last time I checked, was still going pretty strong.
Title: Re: The New Old German Problem
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on May 23, 2010, 01:17:30 PM
Did anyone understand the article?  Germany and France, respective populations of 80 million
and 65 million, do better than Greece (pop. 11 million.)  Wow, who woulda thunk?


Wow...the old tired..."if they just had more people" excuse....ummm wonder why China/India/Bangladesh/Pakistan/Nigeria
all have huge poplulations and have been and still are mostly poor countries....you accuse the author of being simplistic, but
then you respond by stating obviously simplistic "well they dont have enough people" bullshit.

"Both big countries rich in natural resources"

Ummm the old tired "if they only had more resources" simplistic excuse.....ummmm but whatta about Japan?

ps: welcome back to the ring Tee!

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Politics/1079ac4d.jpg)
Title: Re: The New Old German Problem
Post by: Plane on May 23, 2010, 04:26:45 PM
<<Does New York bail out Lousiania and West Virginia?>>

I dunno, Canada has Federal Equalization Payments, which are basically a way of transferring tax revenues from the richer to the poorer provinces.  There's gotta be some kind of equivalent system in the U.S.A., I'd think it's likely built into every federal system of government.



In the US the poorer states generally subsidise the richer ones,but that is not exactly how the division is made.
States that re-elect their senators and representatives most often preserve their clout and roll in better pork.
Title: Re: The New Old German Problem
Post by: Michael Tee on May 24, 2010, 01:59:07 PM
<<Greece has a much older tradition of higher learning, science, research, etc. >>

How true.  Unfortunately, we're not talking tradition here, we're talking institutions.  For much of the 19th and 20th centuries, German universities were considered the best in the world.  English and French universities were not far behind.  It's absurd to compare the educational institutions of Germany, France or the UK with those of Greece in modern times.  In the first decades of the 19th century, Greece was still a province of the Ottoman Empire.  It had no universities to speak of.  It has been and still is one of the poorest countries in Western Europe.

<<And it's core industry has always been shipping (going back thousands of years), which, last time I checked, was still going pretty strong.>>

Ahh, Greek shipping.  Onassis.  from the Wikipedia article on Greece:

<<The Greek maritime fleet is the largest in the world, at approximately 18% of the worlds maritime fleet, giving Greece a political advantage.  . . .  Today, shipping  . . .  accounts for 4.5% of GDP, employs about 160,000 people (4% of the workforce) . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greece)

And then there is tourism:  (from the same source)

<<Greece attracts more than 16 million tourists each year, thus contributing 15% to [GDP.] . . .  The number of jobs directly or indirectly related to the tourism sector  . . . represented 16.5% of the country's total employment for 2004>>

gee, big as shipping is, tourism is even bigger for the Greeks.  Tourism, huh?  Ever wonder if any Americans go to visit Greece?  Ever wonder how the global economic slump is gonna effect tourism?  Anybody here know of any kind of spending that is more discretionary than travel spending?

Greece has a lot of problems, but to turn this into a "lazy fucking Greeks versus hard-working thrifty Germans" is a ludicrous example of pre-formed conclusions generating their own arguments from bogus "facts."  Here's another bonus gleaned from the same Wikipedia article on Greece:

<<The Greek labor force totals 4.9 million, and on average work the second most hours per year amongst OECD countries, after South Korea.[24] The Groningen Growth & Development Centre has published a poll revealing that between 1995 and 2005, Greece was the country whose workers worked the most hours/year among European nations; Greeks worked an average of 1,900 hours per year, followed by the Spanish (average of 1,800 hours/year).[25]>>

Title: Re: The New Old German Problem
Post by: Michael Tee on May 24, 2010, 02:21:14 PM
<<Wow...the old tired..."if they just had more people" excuse....
ummm wonder why China/India/Bangladesh/Pakistan/Nigeria
all have huge poplulations and have been and still are mostly poor countries
....>>

In one word, the answer to your question is:  IMPERIALISM.  Each of the populous countries you name have freed themselves from foreign domination only within my own lifetime.  In fact, I can actually remember when each of them became independent.  Some of them have made huge economic progress since independence and I believe that in another generation China and/or India will be more prosperous than the U.S.A. itself.  The Wikipedia article on the Nigerian economy is interesting too.

<<you accuse the author of being simplistic, but
then you respond by stating obviously simplistic "well they dont have enough people" bullshit.>>

My point was that many factors could have contributed to the Greek crisis, a small population being one of them.

<<Ummm the old tired "if they only had more resources" simplistic excuse.....ummmm but whatta about Japan?>>

Natural resources or the lack of them are one of many factors that could be hurting Greece.  Japan has a huge population, a disciplined work force, creative scientists and engineers trained in excellent schools and universities and I'm sure many other factors working to its benefit.  A big population, of course, is a huge asset - - how many times have you heard, "People are our most important asset?"  Well, it's true, and the more people you have, the more assets you have.  If they're not held back by foreign imperialists, as in all of the countries you mentioned.

<<ps: welcome back to the ring Tee!>>

Thanks, CU4.   
Title: Re: The New Old German Problem
Post by: Amianthus on May 24, 2010, 03:07:14 PM
Greece has a lot of problems, but to turn this into a "lazy fucking Greeks versus hard-working thrifty Germans" is a ludicrous example of pre-formed conclusions generating their own arguments from bogus "facts."  Here's another bonus gleaned from the same Wikipedia article on Greece:

You missed this one (again, same article):

"The public sector accounts for about 40% of GDP."

40% from the GOVERNMENT?
Title: Re: The New Old German Problem
Post by: Michael Tee on May 24, 2010, 04:32:42 PM
<<"The public sector accounts for about 40% of GDP."

<<40% from the GOVERNMENT?>>

A meaningless stat without comparative data from other EU governments.  If it IS out of line, it probably means corruption - - non-productive drones on the payroll, whose "work" is accepted on a total-hours basis into the GDP, just like the work of a seafarer, farm or hotel worker.
Title: Re: The New Old German Problem
Post by: Amianthus on May 24, 2010, 05:31:37 PM
A meaningless stat without comparative data from other EU governments.  If it IS out of line, it probably means corruption - - non-productive drones on the payroll, whose "work" is accepted on a total-hours basis into the GDP, just like the work of a seafarer, farm or hotel worker.

I eagerly await your report.
Title: Re: The New Old German Problem
Post by: Michael Tee on May 24, 2010, 10:03:18 PM
<<I eagerly await your report.>>

I have no interest in building your argument.  You are the one who introduced the stat totally out of context.  I neither agree nor disagree with the conclusion that you drew from it, I merely point out how the stat alone, out of context, means nothing.

If you think so little of the statistic that you yourself introduced into the argument that you aren't prepared to place it in context, where it might have some significance, don't expect ME to do your work for you.  All I can say is, "Nice half-assed argument, where's the rest of it?"
Title: Re: The New Old German Problem
Post by: Plane on May 24, 2010, 10:43:53 PM
Mexico also has a large purportion of its workforce in government .

This is a problem the USA is picking up and I am participateing in .


WE civil servants do pay taxes , but would a snake eating its own tail really last a long time?
Title: Re: The New Old German Problem
Post by: Amianthus on May 25, 2010, 12:00:51 AM
I have no interest in building your argument.  You are the one who introduced the stat totally out of context.  I neither agree nor disagree with the conclusion that you drew from it, I merely point out how the stat alone, out of context, means nothing.

I beg to differ; you are the one who introduced "percent of GDP" as a valid comparison for industries in a country. I just pointed out that the major industry in Greece appears to be civil service, using your source and criteria.
Title: Re: The New Old German Problem
Post by: Michael Tee on May 25, 2010, 10:27:54 AM
<<I beg to differ; you are the one who introduced "percent of GDP" as a valid comparison for industries in a country.>>

I don't know what specific post of mine you are referring to, but I do think "percent of GDP" is a valid comparison for "industries in a country," i.e., if the forest products industry is 13 percent of a nation's GDP and medical instrumentation is 0.3% of GDP, then one could expect forest products to be more significant than medical instrumentation in that nation's economy in general - - i.e., that a world-wide slump in demand for forest products would be a lot more devastating in more areas of the national economy than a world-wide slump in demand for medical instrumentation, etc.

But I don't think you were referring to the role of government as opposed to other industries within the Greek economy, I thought your intent was to demonstrate where Greece was out of step with other national economies in the EU.  If that was your point, then your argument is still deficient without the comparative figures from the other national economies.  In effect, you've said that I use factor X in determining issue Y, and then you attempted to use factor X to determine issue Z, based on my initial approval of factor X for a totally different issue.

Title: Re: The New Old German Problem
Post by: Amianthus on May 25, 2010, 11:13:19 AM
But I don't think you were referring to the role of government as opposed to other industries within the Greek economy, I thought your intent was to demonstrate where Greece was out of step with other national economies in the EU.

Obviously not. If that's information you're interested in, feel free to look up the figures. I was pointing out that the largest "industry" in Greece is civil service.
Title: Re: The New Old German Problem
Post by: Plane on May 25, 2010, 08:14:49 PM
But I don't think you were referring to the role of government as opposed to other industries within the Greek economy, I thought your intent was to demonstrate where Greece was out of step with other national economies in the EU.

Obviously not. If that's information you're interested in, feel free to look up the figures. I was pointing out that the largest "industry" in Greece is civil service.

I think that it has to also be pointed, out that the Government doesn't produce any GNP without removeing it first from somewhere elese.

This isn't obvious to everyone.
Title: Re: The New Old German Problem
Post by: Michael Tee on May 25, 2010, 10:16:02 PM
<<Obviously not. If that's information you're interested in, feel free to look up the figures. I was pointing out that the largest "industry" in Greece is civil service.>>

So that is necessarily bad?  Why?
Title: Re: The New Old German Problem
Post by: Plane on May 25, 2010, 10:23:11 PM
<<Obviously not. If that's information you're interested in, feel free to look up the figures. I was pointing out that the largest "industry" in Greece is civil service.>>

So that is necessarily bad?  Why?
ouroboros
(http://deadangleshow.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/300px-ouroboros_1.jpg)


How long can a reptile live by consumeing its own tail?

I consider the arrangement to be severely limited in duration.
Title: Re: The New Old German Problem
Post by: Michael Tee on May 25, 2010, 11:14:15 PM
Sorry but I don't see that analogy between eating one's own tail and a government that produces 40% of the GDP.

My original question was, what's necessarily bad about a government producing 40% of the national GDP, and I'd still like to see a straight answer to the question, with or without an analogy about eating tail.  Every government produces some part of the GDP, so what is so bad about 40%?
Title: Re: The New Old German Problem
Post by: Plane on May 25, 2010, 11:16:09 PM
Sorry but I don't see that analogy between eating one's own tail and a government that produces 40% of the GDP.

My original question was, what's necessarily bad about a government producing 40% of the national GDP, and I'd still like to see a straight answer to the question, with or without an analogy about eating tail.  Every government produces some part of the GDP, so what is so bad about 40%?

What do you mean by "produce" then?

Especially in this instance.
Title: Re: The New Old German Problem
Post by: Michael Tee on May 25, 2010, 11:42:08 PM
<<What do you mean by "produce" then?>>

Well, you certainly raise some interesting questions about GDP.  Anyone who produces 40% of the gross domestic product produces 40 % of the total value of all goods and services produced in the country in a year.  So "produce" means the production of goods or services.

Someone once pointed out that if an oil tanker spills a billion gals. of oil and it costs $50 billion to clean up the mess, then that $50 billion is counted in the GDP just the same as if it were $50 billion worth of ball bearings or $50 billion worth of brain surgery or lawnmowers or anything else more productive than cleaning up after a mess.  So that GDP can be a pretty rough measure of a country's productivity or standard of living.

If a government produces 40% of GDP, that production would take the form of market value of government services (mostly) plus whatever the government manufactures - - so it's output as regulatory services, metrics (like the national census,) social services (ensuring the flow of funds to the underprivileged, the unemployed, the disabled,) education, research, policing etc.  In a socialist state, more of the GDP is government output (and taxpayer funded) and in a less socialist state, more of the GDP is privately produced and (to the huge, often obscene, profit of the producers) consumer-funded. 

The consumers, unlike the taxpayers, have very little oversight over their providers, and so can expect to get regularly fucked in the ass by them, as in fact has occurred with clockwork regularity in your own country and continues as we speak.  To add insult to injury, when, as happens more often than not in capitalist countries, the capitalist owners also manage to "own" not only the means of production but the "government" as well, they not only get to fuck the consumers up the ass on a regular basis, but to add insult to injury, can actually expect the taxpayers to bail them out whenever they run their "businesses" into the ground.
Title: Re: The New Old German Problem
Post by: Plane on May 25, 2010, 11:45:22 PM
So "Produced " need not mean that any new value was created ?


What if the entire economy was government?
Title: Re: The New Old German Problem
Post by: Michael Tee on May 26, 2010, 12:08:08 AM
<<So "Produced " need not mean that any new value was created ?>>

No, and that's one of the problems with a too-slavish adherence to GDP as a measure of economic progress.  Oil spill clean-ups add nothing.  (Although philosophically, they could be considered a necessary part of every country's oil industry.)  Billions of dollars are spent advertising or marketing Corn Flakes as against Grape Nuts or Wheaties - - WTF do those dollars really add to the economy?  If $100 billion worth of cigarettes are produced, that goes into the GDP, as does the whole medical effort to fight the cancers created by them.


<<What if the entire economy was government?>>

That was the U.S.S.R., to all practical purposes.  That was the original Israeli kibbutz too.  You lack the stimulus of competition.  That is a problem that the Communists have never solved satisfactorily, except to compromise on the principles of Communism and award special status to "Hero of the Soviet Union," "Hero of Labour," etc.  "Hero Factory."  "Hero Collective Farm."  But theoretically, the government could produce a lot of services and products better and cheaper than private industry - - there is no profit motive pushing up prices, cutting corners on quality, etc.  In the 1930s, the GDP of the U.S.S.R. was rising faster than that of any other industrialized country.  I think they were better Communists in those days.  Purer, closer to the Communist ideals.
Title: Re: The New Old German Problem
Post by: Plane on May 26, 2010, 05:21:18 AM
<<So "Produced " need not mean that any new value was created ?>>

No, and that's one of the problems with a too-slavish adherence to GDP as a measure of economic progress.  Oil spill clean-ups add nothing.  (Although philosophically, they could be considered a necessary part of every country's oil industry.)  Billions of dollars are spent advertising or marketing Corn Flakes as against Grape Nuts or Wheaties - - WTF do those dollars really add to the economy?  If $100 billion worth of cigarettes are produced, that goes into the GDP, as does the whole medical effort to fight the cancers created by them.


<<What if the entire economy was government?>>

That was the U.S.S.R., to all practical purposes.  That was the original Israeli kibbutz too.  You lack the stimulus of competition.  That is a problem that the Communists have never solved satisfactorily, except to compromise on the principles of Communism and award special status to "Hero of the Soviet Union," "Hero of Labour," etc.  "Hero Factory."  "Hero Collective Farm."  But theoretically, the government could produce a lot of services and products better and cheaper than private industry - - there is no profit motive pushing up prices, cutting corners on quality, etc.  In the 1930s, the GDP of the U.S.S.R. was rising faster than that of any other industrialized country.  I think they were better Communists in those days.  Purer, closer to the Communist ideals.
Worse at fudging the books.

There is a real problem with Incest , and a problem with closed systems.

You notice it as the children of Communists being less comitted than their fathers , I notice it as reality creeping into the picture.

There was never any hope that Communism would escape its fate , except that it change its basic nature and stop being a monopoly of everything. The US had a period of monopolistic trusts which ended in an era of public disgust and anti trust legislation, we are near a simular phenominon where we are learning again that we should avoid haveing business too big to fail.
Title: Re: The New Old German Problem
Post by: Michael Tee on May 26, 2010, 05:08:55 PM
<<Worse at fudging the books.>>

Come on.  Books are fudged by communists, capitalists, fascists, fundamentalist preachers, stockbrokers, you name it.  Who's better or worse at it is anyone's guess.  I suppose in any kind of authoritarian system, it could get pretty unhealthy for anyone nosing into the books, but then again, who'd care?  The guy would never find an outlet in the state-controlled media.

<<There is a real problem with Incest , and a problem with closed systems.>>

Yep.

<<You notice it as the children of Communists being less comitted than their fathers , I notice it as reality creeping into the picture.>>

The fathers put their lives on the line for the Revolution and the kids didn't have to.  It's harder to fake devotion to the cause when it might cost you your life, the kids were the spoiled brats who were never tested in the struggle.

<<There was never any hope that Communism would escape its fate . . . >>

There was always hope, that was what the Communist martyrs died for.

<< . . .  except that it change its basic nature and stop being a monopoly of everything. >>

Except that it adapt to change and still manage to stay true to the spirit of its original principles.  I know, easier said than done.

<<The US had a period of monopolistic trusts which ended in an era of public disgust and anti trust legislation, we are near a simular phenominon where we are learning again that we should avoid haveing business too big to fail.>>

You aren't learning shit.  The proposal to break up financial institutions over certain size criteria was just shot down a day or two ago.  I'm betting a gallon of gas will cost about the same in any service station in your area.  If Shell is a penny higher today, it will be Exxon that is a penny higher next week or the week after.  It's a giant shell game (no  pun intended) and the myth of "competition" and "market forces" as far as the consumer is concerned is pure BS.
Title: Re: The New Old German Problem
Post by: Plane on May 26, 2010, 11:08:05 PM
You aren't learning shit.  The proposal to break up financial institutions over certain size criteria was just shot down a day or two ago.  I'm betting a gallon of gas will cost about the same in any service station in your area.  If Shell is a penny higher today, it will be Exxon that is a penny higher next week or the week after.  It's a giant shell game (no  pun intended) and the myth of "competition" and "market forces" as far as the consumer is concerned is pure BS.

Yet you favor an uncorrectable monopoly?