DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Xavier_Onassis on March 22, 2012, 01:55:36 PM
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http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/03/trayvon-martin-case-timeline-of-events/ (http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/03/trayvon-martin-case-timeline-of-events/)
In summary, here is what happened:
Trayvon Martin, a Black teenage boy from Miami Gardens (in the same area where my university is located), was staying with a relative in a gated community in Sanford, in Central Florida. He went out one evening to the convenience store, bought a some tea and Skittles, and was stopped by George Zimmerman, a Hispanic "neighborhood watch" type, who stopped him. He was talking on his cellphone with his girlfriend when Zimmerman started following him. Then she heard Treyvon cry out, Zimmerman say something that5 sounded like a "racial epithet", and a shot. Then silence.
Zimmerman who weighs 200 lbs, said that he was threatened and shot Martin in self-defense. The Sanford police actually took this at face value and Zimmerman has not been arrested or charged. Apparently Zimmerman being wet and having a bloody nose was added by the police AFTER the report was issued.
Zimmerman reported the hoodie-wearing Martin as "suspicious" and said he was going to follow him to the cops. The dispatcher told him not to do this. He did it anyway.
This is what the FL Legislature got for its "Stand your ground" law.
I have noted that on TV crime shows, anyone wearing a hoodie is a bad guy. Good guys never wear hoodies.
About the only thing that I could say against Treyvon Martin is that he should have refrained from being a hoodie, and refrained from being Black. Of course, it is also true that people in gated communities often live there because they are scaredy cats and paranoid. Otherwise, they would not pay extra to live in their silly little fortresses.
Zimmerman should have not been carrying a gun. Perhaps a taser or pepper spray, not a gun. Whatever Trayvon was guilty of, it did not merit the death penalty. Death by gun nut is not the prescribed death penalty, even in Florida.
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and..........? sorry Xo, 1 CCW holder doesn't negate the thousands upon thousands of CCW holders who do act responsibly, safely, and DO stop crimes. That's not an opinion, that's a FACT, as per the FBI crime statistics, you couldn't be bothered with when presented earlier
This fella will likely have his CCW revoked, but until a clear investigation is completed, we don't know what happened outside of Zimmerman shouldn't have been following Martin, much less this being a supposed hate crime :o
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Oooh. Shoot a guy and lose your gun permit. That is pretty harsh.
He seems to be guilty of unprovoked murder. How dangerous is a teenage kid talking on a cellphone? How could anyone say that they were in danger of some kid gabbing in a phone?
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Oooh. Shoot a guy and lose your gun permit. That is pretty harsh.
If the investigation deems self defense, then he won't evel lose that. Best wait for all the facts to be presented.
And if I am EVER confronted by someone who is making any kind of threat to my life, or my family's life, or my friends' life, and they "reach for a phone", I will aim center mass & shoot, and not think twice. Thinking twice allows them to pull out what could easily be not a phone
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Treyvon Martin was just standing there or walking along, chatting on the phone. The conversation reveals that he was not confronting anyone.
Zimmerman was the one who challenged him.
He had no business carrying a gun
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Not defending Zimmerman or condemning Martin. I'm the one actually referencing the need for the investigation to finish. Until then....innocent until proven guilty, and as long as he followed all the laws of the state, had all the rights to carrying a gun
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It will prove to be stupid for this fool to be roaming about with a gun.
Stupid and legal, perhaps, but stupid.
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I'll side with legal, since staticisally, most every CCW holder is acutely responsible and safety conscious, ESPCIALLY when it comes to handling firearms
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What the poo is a CCW?
I don't speak Gun Nut.
This kid is dead because that fool was wandering around with a gun.
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Carry Concealed Weapon
This kid is dead......the investigation will determine if he
- was a fool
- wandering vs patrolling
- followed the laws of Florida
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I doubt if he feels much like a genius.
There is a movement to fire the police chief who failed to arrest him.
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I doubt ANYONE of us knows how he feels currently. Are you trying to add mind reader to your amateur fortune telling aspirations??
And what does the Police Chief have to do with any of this?? At one time there was a movement to lynch black people. :o
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Maybe wrong but the police can't do anything once "stand your ground " is enacted. It's all heresay what's true but the self defense claim is pretty solid till somebody produce a high quality phone video.
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The Chief of police is the guy who did not arrest Zimmerman, or even call him in for detailed questioning.
And now his ass is grass.
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So gun nuts actually use the words CCW as a noun?
There goes a Carry Concealed Weapon.
I feel safer now that I am a Carry Concealed Weapon.
Let's all be Carry Concealed weapons.
Dumb.
First they run around killing innocent kids for wearing hoodies, then they destroy the language.
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Hey
The kid had his phone on and the girl friend is the audio witness. This might be bad for the samaritan.
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I think it is a tad excessive to call some prick that chases a kid with his SUV and then shoots him dead when all he is doing is chatting on his phone a Samaritan. He is one of the Bad Samaritans.
He will rue the day he shot that kid, for sure. And rightfully so.
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So gun nuts actually use the words CCW as a noun?
No rational knowlegable people do, when discussing firearms. How ironic a linguistics professor needs educated in the field of language
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How ironic a linguistics professor needs educated in the field of language
"need educated" what is that?
Look at this:
I'll side with legal, since staticisally, most every CCW holder is acutely responsible and safety conscious, ESPCIALLY when it comes to handling firearms
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Every Carry Concealed Weapons holder is acutely responsible, blah blah blah.
You used CCW as a noun or perhaps an adjective. It is neither.
But that is not ironic in your case, and I am unsurprised.
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It's a phrase, a pneumonic, if you'd like...like CIA...FBI....used by law enforcment and the judicial system frequently. So, you're calling them all gun nuts as well. Yep, the language professor needs some serious tutelage o this subject
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No, Carry Concealed weapon is not the same as FBI. FBI is a noun.
He is in the FBI - He is in the Federal Bureau of Incestigation.
He is a CCW = He is a Carry Concealed Weapon.
Not the same. If you cannot see this, I give up. You are too stupid to bother with.
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Acronyms become words constantly.
Isn't "Posh" a word now , ?even for people who have no idea about Port Outbound Starbord Homebound?
The stand your ground law will not help someone who follows someone around before using deadly force, it is supposed to protect someone who is being attacked , not an attacker.
When the grand jury gets this set of facts , should they also consider the emotional state of the community?
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No, Carry Concealed weapon is not the same as FBI. FBI is a noun.
He is in the FBI - He is in the Federal Bureau of Incestigation.
He is a CCW = He is a Carry Concealed Weapon.
Not the same. If you cannot see this, I give up. You are too stupid to bother with.
True , but you would not say someone "is" a CCW, one would say someone has CCW.
The Conceiled Carry Permit is more like a document that one possess than anything elese.
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Since this is turning into a racial incident, i wonder if the hispanic community is going to feel picked upon. Been much simpler is the shooter was just white.
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You see what you're dealing with with these nut-jobs like sirs?
Sirs thinking out loud: >>A guy is walking along, "threatens" me, or my family, or my friend, than he goes for what turns out to be a cell phone, but I kill him first. Tough shit, it's legal.<<
This is the kind of moron who wants to carry a concealed weapon.
BSB
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I said samaritan,because he enacted the " stand your ground law" which normally makes him a hero.
It the the reason he's not arrested
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As usual all the details are not known. So for the time being Mr. Martin will be the poster boy for oppressed hoodies and an example for gun control advocates.
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Zimmerman was not standing his ground. He was cruising around in his SUV when he saw Martin walking home. Then he called the police to report a "suspicious person" and said he was going to follow him. The police dispatcher told him "we don't need for you to do that", but then Zimmerman got out of his car and followed Martin on foot. Martin was talking on the phone the entire time.
Zimmerman was not standing his ground: he was clearly pursuing Martin, who could not have looked too dangerous talking on his cellphone.
There needs to be a complete investigation here, and I bet there will be one.
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I can see how zimmerman could have faked the bloddy nose but the gash on the back of his head? There must have been a scuffle.
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You see what you're dealing with with these nut-jobs like sirs?
Sirs thinking out loud: >>A guy is walking along, threatens me, or my family, or my friend....LIFE, than he goes for what turns out to be a cell phone, but I kill him first. Tough shit, it's legal.<<
Amazing how in BsB's know-it-all world, if someone threatens his or a loved one's life, it's "no biggie", they can go right ahead. Perhaps the whole family, as they pull out, not a phone, but a semi-automatic.
Apparently the state of CA, and numerous law enforcement captains/sherriffs have no problem with your perceived moronic presumptions
But I'll still try to protect you. Though perhaps you're right. I best wait until they've actually shot & killed you, before returning fire. Just to be safe
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In this case, Martin was unarmed. It sounds like he was carrying iced tea with one hand and talking on a cellphone with the other.
Zimmerman had no reason to confront him. He was told by the cops to back off. That is what he should have done.
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From the info only stated on this post, we got nothing conclusive right now
Ex. SUV,gash on the head,cellphone
It really is too soon
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I hope they really do a thorough investigation.
Zimmerman could have clobbered himself. It would have been a logical thing to do, and it is unlikely that anyone could prove that his wounds were not self-inflicted.
Even if Martin, a rather puny teen did clobber him, his life was not really in danger.
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It's not your call to determine what the threat of "real danger" was to Zimmerman. You weren't there. That's for the person being threatened, and the subsequent investigation.
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My question is it legally self defense if zimmerman approached the kid?
Remember his duty is obseve and report. Nothing was stated about the cause of the comfrontation.
But note everything i stated will likely not be addressed.
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That's up to a court. Obviously in hindsight, Zimmerman shouldn't have followed or approached Martin. If he hadn't, there'd been no confrontation
However he did, and there was. What has to be determined, is if there was a reasonable belief that Zimmerman was in fear for his life. The xo's of the world can speculate all they want, but no one was there, except for Zimmerman & Martin. It'll be up to the investigators to provide us with the surrounding facts, yet one things is for certain.....there's no way in hell Zimmerman knew that there was a phone that Martin was reaching for. EVERY police offer and sherriff I've worked with, when taking my firearms safety courses, and IDPA meets, made it crystal clear, when you are in fear for your life, and there is no viable exit, you aim center mass, and pray you put your attacker down before he gets to you or gets off any of his shots
Did I mention EVERY law enforcement officer I've worked with or trained under??
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See, this is what these "I wanna carry a gun" nut-jobs are like. It's all theoretical. They have zero personal experience. They just run off at the mouth with some BS rule of behavior they were told about, or read somewhere. If this happens I was told to do that. If that happens I was told to do this. They've never actually been in a situation where their life was potentially being threatened by a person with a deadly weapon. They have no idea how they'll react. They have no idea how to read or react to the different clues that are presenting themselves one right after another. They don't know whether the situation is escalating, de-escalating, whatever. Neither, BTW, do many cops.
Zimmerman killed a kid that had no weapon. Was no threat. Did nothing. His only crime was walking along while being black.
If Zimmerman doesn't get charged he should apply for a job with the New Jersey State Police. He's dumb enough to be accepted.
BSB
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Uhm
If zimmerman was not armed he would not likely approuch the kid and none of this would of happened. In fact even if conflict dd happened both parties would still be alive unless the kid was highly skilled at unarmed combat.
Also note zimmerman's gun is concealed, unlike a police officer . Meaning it's possible an oficer would not do the same.
Again I'll state these factor might not be considered at all
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(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Politics/38d70073.jpg)
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Just have to love these elitist know-it-alls, like Xo & B, who despite not being anywhere in the neighborhood, and 0 experience with either of these 2 fellas, knew in advance how perfectly safe and non threatening, anything & everything was. Boy, what a power that must be to possess.
It's also pretty amazing how he casts so many law inforcement as apparent idiots for allowing this supposed gun nut to carry. Some of the strictest rules in the entire country, to aquire a CCW, yet this "nut" is cleared, by the state and multiple law enforcement agencies, to do just that. I guess we can all thank God, B isn't in charge, and how fast he'd shred the constitution
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But does that picture look scarey?
He still looks like a kid to me, my nephew was 6"2' at that age and wears a hoodie alot. I noted on another post how races can't identify other races. I'll go further that races percieve threats differently from other races.
Note he's a teenage boy,so wearing scarey gangsta clothes in florida is not exactly out of fashion.
In my area nobody will think twice him walking through, in fact he would be scared of gays in chinatown
"bad racial joke about blacks"
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"Look, I'm as concerned at Trayvon Martin's shooting as anyone,
but "A Million Hoodie March? Really? C'mon".
And the 12-year-old pictures of a pee wee football playing choir boy to build sympathy is getting a little, well, annoyingly over the top. Young Mr. Martin was visiting his father after getting suspended from school. Trayvon was 17 years old when this occurred. Seventeen.
It might make the optic more appealing, but, sorry Sharpton, I remember the Tawana Brawley fiasco, and even more recently I well remember the Duke Lacrosse players rape case fraud. Optics are not always reality.
The consistent false drumbeat cries of racism and crime have diminished actionable credibility and unfortunately cast a long shadow of doubt over what could possibly be justified outrage. Perhaps some folks consider Al Sharpton a strong advocate. But many more consider him an opportunistic flamboyant Pentecostal preacher who spends $2,000 a year for hair care at Brooklyn's Prima Donna Beauty Salon and never met a black crime he could not turn into some form of racist inquisition.
It was not that long ago the same network (MSNBC) who has now hired Al Sharpton to host a nightly broadcast was selling another false racist story surrounding a part-time census worker named Bill Sparkman who was found hanged in Kentucky with the word "Feds" written across his chest.
Oh, how the Rachael Maddow's, Ed Schultz's and Keith Olberman's beat that story to death in their efforts to showcase "Southern Racism" and right-wing extremism, night after night, after night. Only we found out much later Mr. Sparkman killed himself in a $600,000 insurance scam, but MSNBC didn't showcase that aspect with the same enthusiasm did they"?
But they did lay the groundwork for the Sharpton era.
No, Mr. Sharpton, actually when you show up now all possibility of justice, or judicial credibility is considerably diminished. But you are one of the first to buy a plane ticket to capitalize on the venue.
Whether it's faux tears for Michael Jackson or showtime at the Apollo with Brawley, all that's needed is one part black audience, one part media circus, and one part institutionally ingrained white-guilt. Presto, like an ideological jack-rabbit pulled out of a hat by 2-J's et al, Sharpton appears. Always ready to officiate the racist inquisitions.
"Resist We Much".
This horrific death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin has a very similar ingredient profile to Tawana Brawley. All that's needed is Alton H. Maddox and C. Vernon Mason to join him, and he can claim everyone from the local police to Florida Governor Rick Scott are engaged in a systemic cover-up. He can always add Ben Jealous to the crew.
The 8-year-old "stand your ground" Florida gun law is an easy ingredient to add to his mix and he can whip up the institutional leftist media into an all out frenzy. He knows the routine.
The family of Trayvon Martin joined thousands of demonstrators, who teamed up with Occupy Wall Street, to march across New York City last night to protest the shooting death of the Florida teenager. The "Million Hoodie March," as it was dubbed, was organized to show support for the Martin family and call for the arrest of the George Zimmerman, the man who shot and killed Martin last month, but has not been charged after claiming self-defense.
Martin's parents spoke to crowd to thank them for their support and continue to push for charges to be filed against Zimmerman. Martin?s mother Sabrina Fulton told the gathered protesters that "My son is your son."
Standing back, thinking of all the prior examples of false claims of racist violence, and breathing an odd sigh of relief that Mr. Zimmerman is latino (how flippin crazy is that?), one can objectively look at the circumstance.
I don't know if Mr. Zimmerman had any "intention" when he came across Trayvon, and I certainly cannot see into his heart to determine his motivation. But, what I do know is the police looked into the entire event and concluded that Mr. Zimmerman did not, repeat did not, violate any laws and acted lawfully to defend himself.
According to police reports Zimmerman had blood coming from the back of his head as well as a bloody nose which, it is claimed, came as a result of an altercation with Trayvon Martin. The police interviewed Zimmerman, interviewed witnesses, and had all manner of audio tapes from the 911 calls at their disposal for review.
With all that evidence in front of them the police determined Mr. Zimmerman acted within his capacity as a lawful citizen, and did not file any charges.
Yes, the entire situation is horrific, a seventeen year old young man is dead. The incident occurred on February 28th, was subsequently investigated, and Mr. Zimmerman cleared of wrongdoing. It might be prudent and reasonable to re-investigate the exact circumstances once again, however it is highly doubtful that any substantive change will develop.
Absent of a police cover-up, or botched investigation, the original police decision will stand. And in the unlikely event that Mr. Zimmerman was charged now, one can only imagine how easy it would be for a defense team to put the original police officers on the stand and have them say they didn't think it was Zimmerman at fault.
Would any respectable District Attorney put on such a case?
Doubtful.
While my heart goes out to the family and friends of young Trayvon Martin, they would be well served to avoid any connection to Al Sharpton lest they find themselves another asterisk in his wikipedia notation as having been Brawley-ized."
[e-mail]
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there's no way in hell Zimmerman knew that there was a phone that Martin was reaching for.
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He was not reaching for anything.
He was already talking on that phone, about being followed by Zimmerman.
Is it unreasonable that Zimmerman could not assume that a kid talking to no one at all was actually talking on the phone? Most of the time, a person will have one hand, with the phone in it, held against his ear.
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The basic difference between Tawana Brawley and Trayvon Martin is that Trayvon Martin is dead. He is not capable of making up any story.
Obviously, "Christians" thinks that wearing a hoodie while Black is reason for suspicion and perhaps execution.
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there's no way in hell Zimmerman knew that there was a phone that Martin was reaching for.
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He was not reaching for anything.
I repeat....YOU WEREN'T THERE
According to the phone recordings, that's exactly what Zimmerman saw.....Martin reaching into his clothing. IIRC, the "phone" bud was already in his ear. It's not like he was holding some flip phone, or was he. And since he, nor you (though I realize how hard you are practicing) have mind reading ability or x-ray vision, there's no way in hell anyone would have known what Martin was reaching into his clothing for
Now that that fact has been established, we can wait for the investigation to unfold, vs the idiocy of rule by mob mentality
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By what right did Zimmerman get out of his car and pursue Martin on foot?
Or do you dispute that as well?
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Obviously, "Christians" thinks that wearing a hoodie while Black is reason for suspicion and perhaps execution.
No it's obvious I believe you and your "agenda driven divide the county hatemongers"
want to present this case to your liking to further your political goals and it is important
to show the choir boy picture the media has latched on to is bogus.
This...like most of the fraud outrages the Left sensationalizes will probably not amount
to a hill of beans.....because the information shown below does not fit your template to
demonize/divide people and the country.
"George is a Spanish speaking minority with many black family members and friends. He would be the last to discriminate for any reason whatsoever. One black neighbor recently interviewed said she knew everything in the media was untrue and that she would trust George with her life. Another black neighbor said that George was the only one, black or white, who came and welcomed her to the community, offering any assistance he could provide. Recently, I met two black children George invited to a social event. I asked where they met George. They responded that he was their mentor. They said George visited them routinely, took them places, helped them, and taught them things and that they really loved George. The media portrayal of George as a racist could not be further from the truth."
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-zimmerman-letter-20120315,0,1716605.story (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-zimmerman-letter-20120315,0,1716605.story)
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By what right did Zimmerman get out of his car and pursue Martin on foot?
Or do you dispute that as well?
I think you'll recall from the beginning, I made clear it wasn't likely a good idea to follow Martin. And "rights" have nothing to with this, so you can despense with that deflective effort.
Point being, YOU WEREN'T THERE. Now that that fact has been established, that Zimmerman would have no clue what-so-ever of what Martin would have been reaching for in his clothing, we can wait for the investigation to unfold, vs the idiocy of rule by mob mentality
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actually this is the first cellphone death not by a police officer I`ve heard so far.
Cellphones and wallets deaths pop up once in awhile in the news.
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My guess is more people are killed by folks talking or texting on the cell while driving than the cell being mistaken for a firearm.
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My guess is more people are killed by folks talking or texting on the cell while driving
I would think it is an enormous number.
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Trayvn looks to me like jake sisko of deep space nine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jake_Sisko (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jake_Sisko)
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So he does.\
Actually, he resembles Ciroc Lofton, who played Jake Sisko.
Lofton is now 34 or 35, he was born in 1978.
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Derbyshire's take... (http://radio.nationalreview.com/radioderb/post/?q=OWU0NTc3OTUwZDY2NGVmNGFjYzc3ZTg1MjY0ZmQ0OTI=)
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I think Neighborhood watch is a good idea, but this incident seems to show how wrong it can go.
I hope that there is more evidence that can be found, relying entirely on circumstantial evidence that isn't conclusive or the testimony of the main suspect is not going to be satisfying .
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Neighborhood Watch people do the community a service most of the time. They should not be armed with anything lethal, and they should not pursue people. Perhaps they should take action if one person is clearly robbing another, but that was not the case here.
I doubt that we will ever fully know what was said and done that night, but Zimmerman made two mistakes: carrying a gun and pursuing Martin, who was doing nothing more illegal than perhaps walking on the grass.
It was raining. When I am out at night in the rain, I think of only getting home and getting dry. I imagine that was all that was on Martin's mind as well.
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You can't arm people like Zimmerman in a civilian capacity such as a neighbourhood watchman. They're way too paranoid. They're way too weak. When faced with possible danger you have be in control and you have to face the threat mind to mind. You have to get right into the head of the person who is of concern and show him that there isn't any reason for him to become hostile. Zimmerman's actions did exactly the opposite. He made this kid become fearful. He pushed this kid in exactly the wrong direction.
I was in an apartment building in a rough section of Boston back in about 1971. It was about 3 in the morning. I was standing in the hallway and the apartment door in front of me suddenly opened up just enough for a sawed off shotgun to protrude out and come within an inch or two of my face. I looked through the opening in the door, looked the guy in the eye and said, hey, there's no need for that. He said, you're right, and closed the door. He was a speed freak. He was as paranoid as you can get. He was basically out of his mind. I got through to him though. The tone of my voice, and the sense of another way, got through to him.
BSB
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You can't arm people like Zimmerman in a civilian capacity such as a neighbourhood watchman.
I tend to agree...and I think tear gas/mace may be a better option for neighborhood watch folks.
I keep a gun in my nightstand @ home, but pepper spray in my glove box for that very reason.
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Politics/25dacfcf.jpg)
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Most of the armed people in our nation have armed themselves.
Who elese should make the call?
There are llaws against Felons and a few other catagorys buying wepons, but no matter how foolish or crazy one might be , if you have behaved well so far you still have the right.
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I remember when pepper spay and stunguns first cameout. The resistance was huge but people had trouble convincing those devices are more dangerous than a gun itself.
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Pepper spray is very unlikely to be fatal. Tazers are rarely fatal. Guns are clearly more dangerous.
There was no reason for Zimmerman to chase Martin. No one's life or limb was threatened. There is not even any allegation that anyone's property was endangered.
The only options for Zimmerman were for him to stay in his car or go away and wait for the cops.
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LEGALLY, he could also walk the same grounds as Marin was. So there was another option. But in hindsight, not the smartest one, but there were more than 2 LEGAL options
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He could stay in the car, he could stay in the car and drive away. The other option was to do what he did, which was clearly not the best option.
Perhaps he could have practiced his grand jettés and pliés.
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Yea, he COULD do alot of things. Pretty much all of them legal, including get out of his car and walk the same grounds as Martin