THERE is a widespread belief in the Muslim world that President Bush, under the guise of war against terrorism, is in fact waging a latter-day Crusade against Islam and Muslims. ......
http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070910/COLUMNIST12/709100315
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Article published September 10, 2007
Evangelical groups make war on terror look like a Crusade
THERE is a widespread belief in the Muslim world that President Bush, under the guise of war against terrorism, is in fact waging a latter-day Crusade against Islam and Muslims. In the waning days of this administration, it is becoming more and more evident that there is some truth to that assumption.
An article published in the Los Angeles Times a few weeks ago outlined a disturbing relationship between the Department of Defense and Christian evangelists. The DoD has been delivering "Freedom Packages" to U.S. soldiers in Iraq containing proselytizing material both in English and Arabic as well as the apocalyptic video game "Left Behind: Eternal Forces." In the video, the soldiers of Christ hunt down enemies.
The packages were supplied by Operation Straight Up, a fundamentalist Christian ministry. This group was also planning to hold a series of entertainment programs for the troops called, symbolically, Military Crusade.
According to the same article, another evangelical group, Christian Embassy, has had unprecedented access to DoD facilities and personnel for making a documentary. Their cozy proximity to DoD led one high Pentagon official, Air Force Maj. Gen. John Catton, to assume the group was a quasifederal agency.
Proselytizing by Christian missionaries has a long and checkered history. Burning with zeal to save people around the world, these do-gooders descend with Bible in one hand and loaf of bread in the other to prey on the most vulnerable and needy. Be it in Iraq, Afghanistan, or India, the modus operandi is the same. Almost a century ago, Mahatma Gandhi, the apostle of religious harmony and pacifism, urged Christian missionaries to stop proselytizing in India. To Gandhi, most conversions had little to do with religion and a lot to do with hunger.
Freedom of religion does not include freedom to convert others. I would defend anyone's right to practice his or her religion but oppose any overtures to convert. For the missionaries to believe they have a God-given right to save others is not only arrogant, it reduces human spirituality to a cookie-cutter, one-size-fit-all concept of salvation. It tends to turns sublime into profane.
Most major religions carry a Himalaya-size chip of superiority on their shoulders. Each religion thinks it has the answer to life here and a recipe to secure the hereafter. One wonders what goes through the minds of religious leaders when they gather for their interfaith powwows. They profess equality while holding hands but sing a different tune to their flocks back in their churches, synagogues, mosques, and temples. Unless one is a hypocrite, it is just not possible to be equal and superior at the same time.
The recent capture and subsequent release of Korean missionaries in Afghanistan is a case study in ignorance and hypocrisy. Why would these young people risk their lives in a strange and dangerous land rather than putting all their efforts back in their own country? After all, South Korea, a nation of 49 million, still has 36 million non-Christians to convert.
And how about here in America? If every Christian denomination thinks it has the key to salvation, why don't they, in the spirit of love thy neighbor, try converting other Christians to their brand of Christianity? One would think Christian evangelists would first work to save their own before embarking on saving the rest of humanity.
At a recent interfaith seminar at Lakeside, Ohio, a pastor told me that proselytizing is an integral part of Christianity and therefore it may not be possible for most Christians to accord equality to other religions. While this might be a formidable barrier for some, it has not prevented a great majority of believing men and women of all religions from using faith and reason to move forward from the unattainable goal of painting the entire world in one color. All they have to do it to come down from their celestial high horses.
In a civil (and civilized) society, one should have the right to convert but only out of one's own free will. The government has no right to favor one religion over another and use the instruments of the state to facilitate proselytizing to a captive and captured people in occupied lands.
I am not one of these types, but it does appear the article is seriously biased. That is okay, but inflammatory statements are not ocnducive to proper debate. As one example, the article states "All they have to do it to come down from their celestial high horses."
Partisan crap, as it were. Come on. Get a grip.
>>Proselytizing by Christian missionaries has a long and checkered history. Burning with zeal to save people around the world, these do-gooders descend with Bible in one hand and loaf of bread in the other to prey on the most vulnerable and needy.<<
<chuckle>
As apposed to the Muslim hordes who murdered their way across Europe and are currently giving you the choice to convert or die. They descend in packed jetliners or with bombs strapped to their bodies. But hey, a Bible and a loaf of bread is MUCH more threatening.
Good grief.
the evangelicals entering the indigenous homes is preceded by a sharp slap in the face ... not as egregious but damned unneighborly
Certainly not surprising.
I see that you have agreed with him more than Sirs. Tells me from where the missile comes.
Certainly not surprising.
I see that you have agreed with him more than Sirs. Tells me from where the missile comes.
I'm Catholic. I find it annoying to hear "are you saved?"
Besides, I did not realise there was a scorekeeper for 3DHS.
THERE is a widespread belief in the Muslim world that President Bush, under the guise of war against terrorism, is in fact waging a latter-day Crusade against Islam and Muslims. In the waning days of this administration, it is becoming more and more evident that there is some truth to that assumption.
THERE is a widespread belief in the Muslim world that President Bush, under the guise of war against terrorism, is in fact waging a latter-day Crusade against Islam and Muslims. In the waning days of this administration, it is becoming more and more evident that there is some truth to that assumption.
There may be some truth to that assumption. And, like it or not, looking at the current conflict as a religious war may be the proper view of it. It's not like there isn't a historical and cultural precedent.
Islam: No Compulsion In Religion?, Part 3
by Adrian Morgan
http://www.islam-watch.org/AdrianMorgan/Islam-No-Compulsion-In-Religion3.htm (http://www.islam-watch.org/AdrianMorgan/Islam-No-Compulsion-In-Religion3.htm)
Forced Conversion
Some of the South Korean Christian missionaries who were recently kidnapped by the Taliban in Afghanistan were subjected to beatings during their captivity. According to the pastor of the Saemmul Church, the beatings were administered when the missionaries refused to convert to Islam. Five of the 19 captives who returned home at the weekend were male. According to hospital chief Cha Seung-Gyun: "We found through medical checks that some male hostages were beaten. They said they were beaten at first for refusing to take part in Islamic prayers or for rejecting a demand to convert."
The statement from the Koran (Sura 2: 256) that there should be "no compulsion in religion" has been cited as proof that Islam does not employ force to maintain its numbers. Perhaps this is true if one only judges the Koran, and ignores verses such as Sura 8: 12:
"Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them,"
or Sura 2: 191 which states:
"And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out".
Compulsion is certainly implied in Sura 9: 29:
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya (a tax paid by Christians and Jews) with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
Quoting small segments of a book, out of their original context, can be construed as misrepresentation. However, despite all arguments that Islam does not sanction the imposition of force upon others, the Koran does sanction the worst kind of compulsion - slavery. Sura 33: 50 sanctions sexual intercourse with women who become slaves as prisoners of war. Slavery was practiced by Mohammed and his companions, and has continued to this day in regions such as Mauritania and Sudan. Slaves were often "encouraged" to become Muslim. Egypt was ruled between the 13th century and 1517 by a dynasty of captured slaves who had been converted to Islam, called Mamluks. When the Ottoman Empire absorbed Egypt, Mamluks continued to administer Egypt until 1811. The tradition of enslaving Mamluks (slave-soldiers) had started in the 9th century under the Abbasid empire.
In North Africa, the Barbary Corsairs terrorized Christian coastal communities and seafarers from the 16th century until their defeat in 1815. The Barbary pirates took captives who would become slaves. Many of these would be forced to convert to Islam, though this did not alter their status as slaves. Thomas Pellow was one of the countless Europeans captured at sea by Barbary Corsairs in 1715. Aged only 11 at the time of his capture, his youth and speed in learning his Moroccan captors' language offered a chance to avoid the back-breaking labor imposed on older captives. As Giles Milton described in White Gold, Pellow was beaten on his body and upon the soles of his feet until he finally agreed to become a Muslim.
The slave centers of the Barbary Coast were in Morocco, Tunis, Algiers and Tripoli. The German historian Egon Flaig wrote: "In 1159 all the Christians in Tunis had to choose between conversion or death. At this time, the vital Christianity of North Africa was completely wiped out." (full translation available here).
Andrew Bostom, author of ?The Legacy of Jihad: Islamic Holy War and the Fate of Non-Muslims,? has written:
Orders for conversion were decreed under all the early Islamic dynasties ? Umayyads, Abbasids, Fatimids, and Mamluks. Additional extensive examples of forced conversion were recorded under both Seljuk and Ottoman Turkish rule (the latter until its collapse in the 20th century), the Shi'ite Safavid and Qajar dynasties of Persia/Iran, and during the jihad ravages on the Indian subcontinent, beginning with the early 11th century campaigns of Mahmud of Ghazni, and recurring under the Delhi Sultanate, and Moghul dynasty until the collapse of Muslim suzerainty in the 18th century following the British conquest of India.
When Thomas Pellow was a slave under the Moroccan despot Moulay Ismail (ruled 1672-1727), he noted that the sultan had an elite guard. These black slaves and converts to Islam were called "Bukhari". These captives gained their title as they were forced to swear their allegiance to Moulay Ismail upon a copy of Bukhari's Hadiths. This book legitimizes forced conversions, as in Vol 1, Bk 8, 378:
?Narrated Anas bin Malik: Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah."
Another Bukhari Hadith on this subject is Vol 1, Bk 2, 24. Another author of Hadiths who is regarded by Sunnis as "sahih" or "authentic" is Imam Muslim (Abul Husain Muslim bin al-Hajjaj al-Nisapuri) who lived from 817 - 874 AD. In his Hadith collection, (Book 1, 33) it is written:
"It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. 'Umar that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah."
Book 19, 4294 specifies exactly how Muslims should fight disbelievers until they submit or convert: "If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them." Thus, through the Hadiths, policies of forcing Christians and Jews into submission and paying a tax, or becoming converts to Islam, clearly lay out a means by which Muslims have historically conquered others. Forced conversion, which Muslim apologists state is in denial of Sura 2: 256, is sanctioned within these Hadiths. Some Muslims claim to be "Koran-only", but if the "sahih" Hadiths are to be believed, "compulsion in religion" is legitimized.
In Pakistan, forced conversions are common, and most of the victims are members of the minority Christian communities. Sometimes, Christian boys are abducted to be used as slaves. The Islamist group called Jamaat ud-Dawa (Jama'at-ud Da'awah) was founded in 2001 by Hafiz Mohammed Saeed, who also founded the terror group Lashkar-e-Taiba. Though Jamaat-ud-Dawa was listed by the U.S. as a terrorist organization on April 28, 2006, Pakistan has refused to outlaw it. Its HQ is at Mudrike in Punjab province. In May 2006, the Sunday Times reported that the Mudrike HQ of this group was used by Gul Khan, a militant based at the center, to trade in kidnapped Christian boys aged six to 12. They were to be sold on to criminal gangs as beggars, or for the sex trade. According to the Sunday Times, undercover Christian missionaries negotiated the release of 20 boys, after paying Khan. The boys had been kept in captivity for five months. The boys were returned to their homes.
Punjab province has one of the largest concentrations of Christians in Pakistan, though there are no more than 3% in the nation as a whole. On May 2, 2004, an 18-year-old Catholic university student called Javed Anjum died of his injuries at a hospital in Faisalabad. His body bore 26 wounds ? his fingernails had been pulled out, an arm was broken, he had broken fingers and burns to his skin. He had been electrocuted. His bladder and kidneys were also damaged, and he had lost his sight. Anjum, who had been studying commerce, had the misfortune to feel thirsty as he passed the Jamia Hassan bin Almurtaza Madrassa at Toba Tek Singh on April 17th. The student drank from a faucet and was abducted by staff and students from the madrassa. These took him into the seminary and tortured him for five days. Then he was dumped at a police station, where they claimed he was a thief. He remained in police custody for two days before being taken to hospital, where he eventually died. Anjum was tortured as part of a process to force him to convert to Islam.
In March 2006 a leader of the madrassa, Maulvi Ghulam Rasool, and Mohammed Tayyab were sentenced to 25 years in jail. While he had been tortured, Javed Anjum had finally succumbed and said his "shahada" of declaration of faith as a Muslim. His father became so distraught during the trial that he was ordered to leave the courtroom. After Anjum's death, the Pakistan Catholic Bishop's Commission of Justice and Peace sponsored legal proceedings to deal with his tormentors. The Commission noted in 2004: "Religious intolerance and discrimination is the reason behind the recent incidents where young non-Muslims were forcibly converted and circumcised." In November 2003, another Catholic youth aged 15 was abducted by a Muslim classmate. He was forced to convert to Islam after being beaten by Islamic clerics who forced him to attend the Madrassa Jamia al Qasim al Aloom. Though the boy escaped, his mother and brother had to go into hiding.
The experience of these two youths is a model followed in numerous instances. When Christian girls are forced to convert, they are usually raped or forced to marry against their will. The All Pakistan Minorities Alliance (APMA) has documented some of these cases. The group reported that in September 2005 a 12-year-old Christian girl, Sara Tabasum, was abducted by neighbors near Rawalpindi. She was raped by three men in the neighbors' home, and told she could be "saved" if she agreed to convert to Islam and married one of the sons of the neighbors. Sara was reportedly raped by a total of 16 men, and as she had not recanted her faith her captors arranged to sell her to a gang. While being taken away in a truck, she jumped out and fled back to her family.
Shahbaz Bhatti, chairman of the APMA, later said that the 16 men should be prosecuted. He claimed, "This horrific, brutal and shameful act is continuously ignored by government authorities despite of the protests and demands from different organizations and victim family. Even no government authority condemned the incident nor visited the victim's family, which shows insincere and irresponsible behavior of the government to tackle issues of women. As a result of this negligence, incidents of rape, kidnapping, torture, and gang rape are on the rise and the victimized women are begging for justice and protection to save their dignity and honor." He added that Sara's family had been threatened by some of the suspects, to make them withdraw their charges.
In September 2, 2005 a 22-year-old Christian woman, Riqba Masih, was abducted at a bus stop in Faisalabad by two men. She was taken to Lahore and raped and threatened with death, as her assailants ordered her to convert. The two men were charged, but only one appeared in court. Because of the incident, Riqba's six sisters had to leave their school because their classmates labeled them as "prostitutes." Riqba still has not received justice.
In September 2006, APMA reported that a 40-year-old Christian woman and her 13-year -old daughter had been abducted near Sialkot in northeastern Punjab province. After the death of her husband, Nasreen Pervez had gone with her daughter to work as servants at the home of their Muslim neighbor. After a month, the man refused to pay them and kept them prisoners. The two were subjected to torture with shards of glass and burns when they refused to convert to Islam. The man had even brought a bottle of acid and a syringe and threatened to inject them if they did not convert. Their captor also threatened to kill their relatives if they did not become Muslim. The pair was released by a bailiff, on the orders of a court, after another daughter discovered what had happened to them.
On August 5th this year Zunaira, an 11-year-old Christian girl, was abducted by a Muslim and his sister from the girl's home in Warispura, near Faisalabad in Punjab province. The girl was forced to convert to Islam and marry her kidnapper, Muhammad Adnan. Zunaira's mother spent all her money trying to trace her daughter's whereabouts. She said she had contacted the police when she discovered her daughter had been married. Police told her that the illegality of an underage marriage was "not a matter for the police".
On August 16th this year, a 16-year-old girl was abducted after being told her father was in hospital, and was said to have been forced to convert and marry. Her father said that "cases such as these are on the increase: Christian girls abducted, forcibly converted and subjected to becoming the wives of complete strangers." It was later confirmed that the 16-year-old had been married to a Muslim man 12 days after her abduction.
Christians are not the only targets for forced conversion in Pakistan. In December 2005, the Supreme Court of Pakistan ordered that three sisters from a Hindu family who were staying at a madrassa in Karachi, Sindh province, be moved to a hostel. A charge had been made that the three girls, who had been found studying Islam at the seminary, had been forced to convert and also raped. The girls' father claimed that the administration at the madrassa would not allow him to see his daughters.
The Asian Human Rights Commission (AHRC) claimed in a 2006 report (pdf document) that in Sindh province in southeastern Pakistan in 2006, 25 Hindu girls were forced to convert to Islam, according to APMA statistics. Police in the province appear reluctant to deal with these cases. Some of those involved in forcing conversions in Pakistan are said to belong to militant groups. Madrassas are also said to be involved in assisting some of the forced conversions. On New Years' Eve, 2006, a 17-year-old Hindu girl from a village in Sindh was abducted by her Muslim tutor. AHRC stated that the girl was taken to a madrassa where the man taught. The seminary owner, who was providing shelter to the "couple", claimed that the girl had willingly converted to Islam, though her parents believed she had been forced. Though there were 25 cases of forced conversion of Hindu girls in 2006, the average figure is about 15 per year in Sindh province.
There is even a report of a Christian male being gang-raped and seriously injured in an attempt to force him to convert to Islam.
I wrote in Part Two about Pakistan's blasphemy laws, and how they have been used to discriminate against Christians and other religious minorities. On May 9, 2007, an 84-year-old Christian man, Walter Fazal Khan, was accused by his driver of setting fire to a Koran. The driver, a convert from Christianity to Islam, was a nephew of Mr. Khan's 86-year old wife Gladdis. When Mr. Khan was arrested and automatically detained in custody, a Muslim cleric took over his house and forced Gladdis to convert to Islam. The cleric claimed he wanted to turn the house into a madrassa.
A convention was held in Lahore, Punjab on May 26th this year on the subject of forced conversion. Attended by representatives of human rights groups, the conference noted that around 500 to 600 people a year are forcibly converted to Islam in Pakistan. Only a fifth of these cases are taken up by the press and media.
In May this year, reports came that Christian communities in North-West Frontier Province (NWFP), which lies next to the Afghan border, were being threatened by Islamists to convert to Islam or die. The Christians came from the town of Charsadda near Peshawar, the capital of NWFP. About 500 had received letters demanding that they convert by May 17th or they would suffer from a campaign of "bomb explosions". NWFP is the home of the Pakistan Taliban, and numerous al Qaeda members live in the borderlands of the province. Many Christians took fright and fled from their homes.
The letters continued, and though the first deadline had passed, by late August three communities of Christians, at the neighborhoods of Tailgodom, Sandagodom and Goalgodom, still lived in a climate of fear. The later letters had contained the threat:
We will wipe out your slum on next Friday, August, 10th, 2007. And you, yourself would be responsible for the destruction of your men and material. Get ready! This is not a mere threat, our suicide bombers are ready to wipe out your name and signs from the face of earth. Consider it be the Knock of Death... Our suicide bombers, lovers of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) are ready to strike churches, to protect the sanctity of Mecca and Medina, and pride of Islam. These suicide bombers would strike at any time or day. It is our first and foremost Jihad to assassinate and eradicate the infidels from the face of earth.
In Southeast Asia, during the Moluccan conflict between Indonesian Islamists and Christians living in the Spice Islands and Sulawesi, one Islamist group led the atrocities against Christians. This group, Laskar Jihad, was led by a veteran of the Afghan Mujahideen and associate of Osama bin Laden, called Jafar Umar Thalib. This individual had been "educated" in Saudi Arabia. He had organized a horrific attack upon Christian villagers of Soya on the island of Ambon on April 28, 2002, where even babies had been hit with machetes. People were clubbed to death, some were burned alive in their homes, and several people were decapitated. Twenty-one died, and many more were injured. Despite organizing this, and many other atrocities, Thalib was acquitted of incitement on January 30, 2003.
During the Moluccan conflict, which lasted from 1999 to 2003 and claimed 9,000 lives, six islands with large Christian populations were attacked by Laskar Jihad. On January 27, 2001, the Sydney Morning Herald reported that 3,928 villagers on these islands were forced to convert to Islam. Men were forcibly circumcised and women were made to undergo female genital mutilation (FGM), even though Muslim women from the islands do not follow this custom. The circumcisions and FGM were done without anesthetic, mostly by Muslim clerics. Elderly women in their seventies and young girls as young as babies were subjected to this excruciatingly painful indignity. As a result of the Islamists' campaign, the eastern half of Ceram island became entirely "Islamic."
In Muslim countries, conversions into Islam are encouraged, but to convert out of Islam can be deadly. In Iran, three people have been sentenced to death for converting to Christianity since 1987. One Iranian man who converted to Christianity in 1980 and became a pastor, Hamid Pourmand, was accused of apostasy and trying to convert Muslims in 2005. He was acquitted of these charges on May 28, 2005, but during his trial hearings he had been forced to convert back to Islam. Members of the Bahai faith in Iran have been reported to be subject to forced conversions to conventional Islam. Jews in Iran have historically been subjected to forced conversions to Islam.
Forcible conversions in the Middle East are becoming more common. In Iraq, members of the Chaldean (Assyrian) church have been subjected to some appalling atrocities and over the past two years, attacks and threats have caused many to flee. In Mosul, Christians have been threatened with violence in extortion attempts, forced to pay a "jizya tax". In April 14th this year, Christian families in the Dora district of Baghdad fled from their homes after Islamists gave them a 24-hour deadline to convert to Islam or be killed.
In Egypt, there has long been tension between the majority Muslim population and the Coptic Christians, who number 10% of the nation's population. Officially, all conversions to Islam in Egypt must be registered with the state-sponsored Al-Azhar University in Cairo, and validated by security police, but such procedures are rarely followed in cases of forcible conversion. It is illegal for Egyptian Muslims to convert out of Islam, but Christians are legally allowed to convert into Islam. About 10,000 Christians are said to annually convert to Islam each year. There have been several cases of forced conversions of Coptic women.
Some of these reports are disturbing. In April 2004, Heidi Hakim Mankerious Salib was a 17-year- old schoolgirl. She was abducted, drugged, raped, and forced to wear a veil. A Christian cross was tattooed on her wrist. Her abductor tried to remove this with scissors. She was taken to a police station and made to sign a document claiming she had converted to Islam, even though she was not yet 18. The family had their car rammed when they tried to protest, and on June 2nd, 2004, Heidi went missing again.
In 2004, the abduction of Wafaa Constantine Messiha, the wife of a Coptic priest, caused consternation among the Christian community. Shenouda III, the Coptic Pope, spoke of the widespread anxiety about forced conversions. He said:
I have received so many letters about what's happening to the Christian girls who go to supermarket stores to shop. At the store they tell them that they have won and have to go upstairs to receive their award or prize. After that we don't know what's happening to these girls upstairs. There is a lot of talking going on about this matter, and I see that what's happening will create a religious clash in the country. I'm urging the police to take a serious action against what's happening.
The wife of the priest later claimed that she had converted voluntarily. She said: "I want to say to Christians that I willingly took this decision and I am not an immature girl who can fall under pressure from anyone." Despite this, there were four days of protests and the woman was taken by police and handed her back to her community. She later resumed her Christian practices. Bishop Abanob of Assuit claimed that Coptic Christians were being offered money, homes and jobs if they converted to Islam.
The issue of conversion is sensitive for Muslims as well as Christians. A play about a Christian man who converts to Islam but then returned to his faith, called "I once was blind but now I see" sparked riots at St. George's church in Alexandria in October 2005. DVDs of a 2003 performance of this play (which had taken place in the church) were circulating, and Muslims went on the rampage. A nun at the church was subjected to a knife attack in the church, and lost fingers.
In January 2006, Theresa Ghattass Kamal was abducted from Wadi El-Natroun, south of Cairo. She was able to phone her aunt to say that her captors had tried to force her to convert to Islam, but she claimed that she had resisted. Three months later, Theresa was found by her brother, living in a Muslim home and wearing a face-veil. "I have converted to Islam. I have found the right path," she said, even though her conversion had not been registered and she had not visited a Coptic priest, one of the conditions of official conversion to Islam.
In June this year, a 38-year-old Egyptian under threat of deportation from the U.S. said that he was under threat of being forced to convert to Islam if returned to Egypt. Sameh Khouzam's supporters claimed that he had left Egypt eight years previously because of similar attempts.
Patrick Poole reported that in June this year, an Egyptian Christian named "Omar" was in a similar position. He had "illegally" converted from Islam to Christianity, and had twice been arrested and tortured by police. He was threatened by members of the Muslim Brotherhood who claimed they would kill him, causing him to flee Egypt in October 2005. He was granted asylum by a judge in Texas.
In 2006 in Gaza, two journalists with Fox News who had been held hostage for two weeks were freed on August 27. 60-year-old correspondent Steve Centani and 36-year-old photographer Olaf Wiig were captured by Islamists who called themselves the "Holy Jihad Brigades." During their captivity, the two men were forced at gunpoint to convert to Islam. Mr. Centani said that "it was something we felt we had to do because they had guns and we didn't know what the hell was going on."
Last month, officials from Fatah claimed that a Christian woman, Professor Sana al-Sayegh, of Palestine Inernational University in Gaza, had been forced to convert to Christianity by members of the terrorist group Hamas. They claimed: "She was kidnapped and held for two weeks during which time she was not allowed to contact her family." The professor reappeared after her absence at the home of a Hamas member and, in the presence of Hamas gunmen, claimed that she had become a Muslim. Her mother said that she only announced her "conversion" because of the armed Hamas officials. Hamas accused the Fatah officials of lying. After Hamas forcibly took control of Gaza, Islamist group Jihadia Salafiya told WorldNet Daily that Gaza's 2,000 Christians could continue to live safely, as long as women wore Islamic head coverings.
In Britain, where Muslim immigration has taken place at high rates, there have been problems with attempts to convert Sikh girls in Birmingham since the late 1990s. Muslims have counter-claimed that Sikh boys in the city's suburbs have tried to get Muslim girls drunk. In February this year, the head of London's Metropolitan Police announced that Muslims who tried to forcibly convert Sikh and Hindu girls were being targeted. At universities, Sikh and Hindu girls have been threatened and attacked, sometimes forced to abandon their studies, in such conversion attempts.
So far, the most violent attempts at forced conversion have involved members of the south London gang called "The Muslim Boys". At an inquest at Southwark Coroner's Court on January 4, 2006 Ruth Marriott described how her 21-year-old son Adrian had died on June 8, 2004, shot five times through the head. She had heard the shots. She said:
The thought did strike me that Adrian could be involved, but it was a fleeting thought. Then we heard from police the following evening what had happened. Adrian was told on the Sunday prior to his death that he would be killed if he did not become a Muslim by the Wednesday, which was the day he died.
Islam literally means "submission". Though many Muslims proclaim that there is no compulsion in religion, it is a sad fact that for some others, particularly those affiliated with extremist groups, "submission" means not just the submission of oneself to God, but also the forcible submission of others.
I find it interesitng that Christians do not force conversion on someone yet Muslims do. Anyone else find this intriguing? How devout can you be if you are forced into it, I wonder?
>>Yes, because we went up to the pagans in Europe and asked them "are you saved?"<<
Can you present an instance of Christians killing pagans who refuse to convert in oh, say the past 300 years or so? This article is simply a lame attempt to deflect current events and point a finger at ancient history. It makes the simple minded revert to the template.
>>ither we can discuss history or we cannot. Which shall it be?<<
<chuckle>
Forget it. You're obvioisly to dishonest to have ths conversation with.
I find it interesitng that Christians do not force conversion on someone yet Muslims do.
That's because those who rail against Christians only have the Crusades to use as supposed "validation" of how terrible current Christianity is.
QuoteThat's because those who rail against Christians only have the Crusades to use as supposed "validation" of how terrible current Christianity is.
Nah, some of us are more current on our history than that.
I believe the person I responded to was trying to claim Christianity hadn't tried to force conversions since the Crusades.
I believe they also forgot that the Inquisition came after the Crusades.
Maybe they weren't as up on their history as they thought.
So, of course you'll show us this widespread forced Christianity upon the populace or "off with your head" form of consequences, right?? We'll sit with baited breath, to these plethora of examples analogus to current radical Islam
*whistle*
QuoteSo, of course you'll show us this widespread forced Christianity upon the populace or "off with your head" form of consequences, right?? We'll sit with baited breath, to these plethora of examples analogus to current radical Islam
*whistle*
Keep whistlin'. You said the only examples to be had were the Crusades. I gave you examples within the last hundred years. If you're not happy, go piss up a rope.
...trivial references...
Gotta try to knock sirs down if possible
Quote...trivial references...
No so trivial to the Indians involved, who were forced to attend the schools, or who had their children ripped from them and taken to such schools.
"........descend with Bible in one hand and loaf of bread in the other ......."
Decent religions, like Buddhism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism (or Parsi),Jainism, and even Sikhism and Shinto tend to leave other peoples alone.
Decent religions, like Buddhism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism (or Parsi),Jainism, and even Sikhism and Shinto tend to leave other peoples alone.
There is historically a conflict between Sikhs and Muslims.
And, yes, let's just say their admiration for the typcial Muslim was somewhere between pond scum and beetle dung.
So true. I onced trained with a Sikh unit. Some of the most efficient, blood-thirsty warriors, yes real warriors, I have ever met. And I found their honor code to be above reproach. I will always admire them greatly. And, yes, let's just say their admiration for the typcial Muslim was somewhere between pond scum and beetle dung.
=================================================================
What religious wars have the Sikhs begun with the Muslims?
In any case, the Big Three Sandpeople religions have the record for provoking conflicts because of their pompous belief that God favpors them over all others.
Youy may scratch the Sikhs (if you wish) from the list, then. Replace them with the Bahai's.
What religious wars have the Sikhs begun with the Muslims?
1201
::)
>>The Church doesn't think, or act in terms of days, weeks, or months.<<
It doesn't?
So Vatican II really didn't change a thing?
::) ... again
Obviously there were some forced conversions in Christianity, otherwise Pope Innocent III would have never written his letter of 1201.
However, the error here is in looking at the creation, not the Creator. People are fallable, deal with it. Friggin' whiners.
I am half Cherokee. My heritage is full of the acts you describe. So? It is the past. Try to learn from it and Move on. Make a better present and future.
so, if I understand this right, you blame the created not the Creator? Aren't we all in a state of striving for perfection and not yet there? Many times in my career my units had the highest ratings yet there was always room for improvement, always a desire to strive for not only excellence by perfection. Perhaps Christians are doing this, too, sometimes failing and sometimes succeeding.
Of course not, but in the scope of the Crusades or Militant Islam, not even close to comparable. But hey, if winning this game is so important to you, let's get it on record. I sirs, have conceded that there was an example, post Crusades, that H found that demonstrates extreme, almost militant behavior applied to an Indian tribe, somewhere in Canada, sometime in the early 1900's. I should have made it more clear to folks like H, that my point was in reference to something, anything, even remotely close to the Crusades, but apparently that wasn't quite understood by those, who apparently have a knee-jerk need to try and prove someone they don't agree with, as wrong
There, that should make it all better. Now perhaps we can return to more comparable references and context.
Mutated? No sirs. they can read just fine. They quote the Quran and do EXACTLY what it tells them to do. " ... Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them." (Quran 9:5) "Therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers in fight, smite their necks; when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly on them." (Quran 47:7)
>>It is scary, BUT, I wouldn't go so far as to paint "Islam" as this evil religion, analogus to how the left tries to paint the evils of Christianity,<<
Oh good grief. You've fallen into the trap as well as they have. Always the caveat so you don't appear a bigot to THEM. Who gives a damn what they think of you sirs? They don't give a damn about you and would throw you to the wolfs if given half a chance. Look, there are 100 million Muslims out there who would cut your head off as soon as look at you. The rest of them do nothing to stop them. Focus on the threat and forget what liberals or the "silent majority" of Muslims may think. Who gives a damn? The fact remains that all these terrorists have ONE thing in common.
>>Islam by itself is likely just as peaceful and fulfilling as Christianity is to devoted Christians.<<
Tell that to the families of people who died on 9/11/2001. Tell that to Israelites who have been blown to pieces on their way to work. Then tell it to Daniel Pearl familiy and all the others who had their heads sawed off and the gruesome act preserved on the internet.
>>It's the brain damaged mutants who have hijacked Islam, & have mutated the message of the Koran<<
Mutated? No sirs. they can read just fine. They quote the Quran and do EXACTLY what it tells them to do. " ... Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them." (Quran 9:5) "Therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers in fight, smite their necks; when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly on them." (Quran 47:7)
>>And that is indeed scary......as are those who wish to brush right over that, and try to point some erroneous light at the evil's of a 21st century Christian Crusades, as, I'm guessing, the rationalization as to why so many are ok with the radicalization of their own religion<<
Absolutely. Where are the 900 million Muslims who claim they don't support these animals? No sirs, I prefer to point out the truth about Islam until such time as they themselves can take back there religion and prove it really is a religion of peace. Until then I'll go by what I see.
Mutated? No sirs. they can read just fine. They quote the Quran and do EXACTLY what it tells them to do. " ... Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them." (Quran 9:5) "Therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers in fight, smite their necks; when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly on them." (Quran 47:7)
Interesting. Except that Jews and Christians are considered to be believers. Pagan religions (those not following the one true God, not from Abraham) are the unbelievers discussed.
It's so easy to twist things when you have no idea what you're reading and what the historical perspective is.
So which is it; the Church never changes, or they change but since they take a long time to change that means they don't really change?
It's amazing to watch liberals twist themselves into a pretzel to defend terrorists. Just simply amazing.
Those who do not believe in Allah are "infidels." I would present the FACT that Jews and Christians do not.
You keep defending Islam, but the fact is that many if its followers today are committing terrorist acts. I care little about all this discussion about the crusades. I live TODAY and TODAY is when 9-11 happened and people throughout he Middle East celebrated. The Palestinian professor here says he would kill all Jews. When queried, he says he means it. Several years ago, we were going to hire a new professor, well-distinguished one. He was very "high" on the man until he found out he was Jewish. Then, he made such a fuss, we didn't hire the new guy. And, do "moderate" Moslems corral these extremists, nope. No excuses, they don't. So, putting thme into the same barrel sounds authentic to me. They need ot show me different before I change my mind. Round up some extremsits, etc. Then, the West's views might change. Of course, I don't see this happening, do you?
Those who do not believe in Allah are "infidels." I would present the FACT that Jews and Christians do not.
You keep defending Islam, but the fact is that many if its followers today are committing terrorist acts. I care little about all this discussion about the crusades. I live TODAY and TODAY is when 9-11 happened and people throughout he Middle East celebrated. The Palestinian professor here says he would kill all Jews. When queried, he says he means it. Several years ago, we were going to hire a new professor, well-distinguished one. He was very "high" on the man until he found out he was Jewish. Then, he made such a fuss, we didn't hire the new guy. And, do "moderate" Moslems corral these extremists, nope. No excuses, they don't. So, putting thme into the same barrel sounds authentic to me. They need ot show me different before I change my mind. Round up some extremsits, etc. Then, the West's views might change. Of course, I don't see this happening, do you?
Those who do not believe in Allah are "infidels." I would present the FACT that Jews and Christians do not.
According to Islam: Jews, Christians, and Zoarastrians do.
You keep defending Islam, but the fact is that many if its followers today are committing terrorist acts. I care little about all this discussion about the crusades. I live TODAY and TODAY is when 9-11 happened and people throughout he Middle East celebrated. The Palestinian professor here says he would kill all Jews. When queried, he says he means it. Several years ago, we were going to hire a new professor, well-distinguished one. He was very "high" on the man until he found out he was Jewish. Then, he made such a fuss, we didn't hire the new guy. And, do "moderate" Moslems corral these extremists, nope. No excuses, they don't. So, putting thme into the same barrel sounds authentic to me. They need ot show me different before I change my mind. Round up some extremsits, etc. Then, the West's views might change. Of course, I don't see this happening, do you?
Is this the same Iran that held our Embassy employees as hostages? I am supposed to respect the views of a nation that commits an act that is against all international law? Defend it, if you can. I would've taken the country apart for it. I voted for Jimmy but I am ashamed at his lack of cojones regarding that.
And the Palestinina professor issue isn ot hearsay. It is FACT. I don't lie. EVER. And what the IRA does is just as disgusting and I would string thme up one by one as well as Moslem extermists. I apply the same strategies. Do you?
What do you really stand FOR? What it really means is that you stand for little. What does it take to light a fire under you such that you get out of your PC shell and take action?
Mutated? No sirs. they can read just fine. They quote the Quran and do EXACTLY what it tells them to do. " ... Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them." (Quran 9:5) "Therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers in fight, smite their necks; when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly on them." (Quran 47:7)
Interesting. Except that Jews and Christians are considered to be believers. Pagan religions (those not following the one true God, not from Abraham) are the unbelievers discussed.
So Miss Henny, are you going on record as stating that the message of the Koran IS to kill all non-believers of Islam?? So Rich is actually rightIt's so easy to twist things when you have no idea what you're reading and what the historical perspective is.
"Twist"? So unless I was actually living back then to have the proper "perspective", I must be "twisting" the message :-\
Mutated? No sirs. they can read just fine. They quote the Quran and do EXACTLY what it tells them to do. " ... Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them." (Quran 9:5) "Therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers in fight, smite their necks; when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly on them." (Quran 47:7)
Interesting. Except that Jews and Christians are considered to be believers. Pagan religions (those not following the one true God, not from Abraham) are the unbelievers discussed.
It's so easy to twist things when you have no idea what you're reading and what the historical perspective is.
The statements by notable personages in Iran such as their President indicates extremists by the barrel load.
As far as what I do, I do not condone violence against innocents, regardless who does it. Hate-filled groups such as the IRA and even its more extreme sects fit that bill.
If Israel fires a missile against a village of innocents (no apparent military presence), then that qualifies as well.
That being said, I advocate vigorous ACTION against those who attack innocents. As an example, I would have caught Bin Laden and his cohorts and executed them, given the chance (I wouldv'e shot him myself or, better yet, made him suffer some beforehand. Ever been shot in the knee? I have. Damned painful.) I sure the polits wouldn't have allowed it, but that is what I would have done, if at all possible. See I advocate ACTION. There is a time for jawing. Once a certain point is passwed and no positive results, then you spank your enemies and spank 'em HARD. Make sure they remember it for some time afterward andany others who think of committing similar actions. I would have made those responsible for the hostage takeover regret it, no matter what it took. What have YOU done? Talk.
So, MY policy is to use FORCE when it is necessary. That doesn't mean we go around and act like Imperial Rome. That itme has gone. But if osmeone screws with you, you make 'em PAY.
Force talks and bullshit walks.
So unless I was actually living back then to have the proper "perspective", I must be "twisting" the message
And your justification for talking down to him is WHAT? Gives you the jollies?
And your justification for talking down to him is WHAT? Gives you the jollies?
The statements by notable personages in Iran such as their President indicates extremists by the barrel load.
As far as what I do, I do not condone violence against innocents, regardless who does it. Hate-filled groups such as the IRA and even its more extreme sects fit that bill.
If Israel fires a missile against a village of innocents (no apparent military presence), then that qualifies as well.
That being said, I advocate vigorous ACTION against those who attack innocents. As an example, I would have caught Bin Laden and his cohorts and executed them, given the chance (I wouldv'e shot him myself or, better yet, made him suffer some beforehand. Ever been shot in the knee? I have. Damned painful.) I sure the polits wouldn't have allowed it, but that is what I would have done, if at all possible. See I advocate ACTION. There is a time for jawing. Once a certain point is passwed and no positive results, then you spank your enemies and spank 'em HARD. Make sure they remember it for some time afterward andany others who think of committing similar actions. I would have made those responsible for the hostage takeover regret it, no matter what it took. What have YOU done? Talk.
So, MY policy is to use FORCE when it is necessary. That doesn't mean we go around and act like Imperial Rome. That itme has gone. But if osmeone screws with you, you make 'em PAY.
Force talks and bullshit walks.
So basically you talk big.
Wow.
What have I done?
I don't have to justify myself to you, but I work hard on my employee's association (which is basically a union, but cannot call themselves that for legal purposes) and I also work to give people in Haiti a little bit better life.
I pride myself on not hurting anyone.
...your tiny little example, that only effected a small tribe, in a small area of Canada, back in the early 1900's...
>>I never said that the Church never changes. Nor did I say it "changes so slowly that it means that it never changes." What I said is that the Holy Spirit moved Pope Innocent III to write a specific letter on forced conversions and you claim that time has made it irrelevant. <<
>>Where do you get this stuff?<<
From you of course. You have to go back to 1201 to find anything that even remotely relates to something that is happening in the year 2007. You claim this proves your point. I point out that the Church has changed it's stance on this, and many issues over hundreds of years and you claim that even though it says it's changed, it really hasn't. You're being ridiculous and frankly you look like a fool. You really should reconsider your religious affiliation or at least keep your mouth shut.
You really should reconsider your religious affiliation or at least keep your mouth shut.
It's obvious who has a high opinion of themselves JS. It's you. A catholic defending the American left and radical Islam.
Disgusting.
>>Wonder if Richpo thinks a Catholic who defends the "American Left" should be excommunicated?<<
Well yellow, I suggest you read up on the subject and come to your own conclusions. Better yet, do what you always do, stick to the template.
As for what yellow stain thinks, who cares.
Yes, it is open shop.
We all can add 2+2 and get the correct answer, perfectly.
Perhaps there are no other Catholics in here, so no shame is then intended for those who remain silent.
A catholic defending the American left and radical Islam.
Disgusting.
>>But since Rich has designated himself as "the one who decides who should and should not be Catholic" in this group"<<
This from the defender of terrorists baby killers.
>>But since Rich has designated himself as "the one who decides who should and should not be Catholic" in this group"<<
This from the defender of terrorists baby killers.
Spare me.
>>But Rich would have all Muslims killed... just to be sure no terrorists were missed.<<
You're pretty mouthy for a Muslim's wife.
:-X
>>But Rich would have all Muslims killed... just to be sure no terrorists were missed.<<
You're pretty mouthy for a Muslim's wife.
:-X
>>Shit - you're right! I should be walking 10 paces behind all the men in these debates.<<
Don't blame me. I'm not telling you you're a second class citizen. As far as I'm concerned, you can leave the house any time you like.
"Men have authority over women beause God made the one superior to the other." (Qur'ran 4:34)
"Your women are a tilth (a field) for you to cultivate so go yo your tilth as ye will." (2:223)
"Good women are obedient, guarding in secret what Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them." (4:34)
Hell, even Muhammad hit his wives. He hit his wife Aisha. she said, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: 'Do you think Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you.'?"
11 "When two men are fighting and the wife of one intervenes to save her husband from the blows of his opponent, if she stretches out her hand and seizes the latter by his private parts,
12 you shall chop off her hand without pity.
24 Rather let me bring out my maiden daughter or his concubine. Ravish them, or do whatever you want with them; but against the man you must not commit this wanton crime."
25 When the men would not listen to his host, the husband seized his concubine and thrust her outside to them. They had relations with her and abused her all night until the following dawn, when they let her go.
11 A woman must receive instruction silently and under complete control.
12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. She must be quiet.
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14 Further, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and transgressed.
Oh please, take it up with the Jews.
My bad.
Okay, so find an example of Jesus or an Apostle beating his wife.
My bad.
Okay, so find an example of Jesus or an Apostle beating his wife.
>>Point being Rich, each religion's "textbooks", have passages that would subjugate women & kill the "unclean"., passages that can be so easily applied to the 21st century.<<
They can? I think we can agree that Christianity is a forward looking religion. Through the ages it has reformed itself and addressed things like women's rights. Islam on the other hand is distictly backward looking. You may think that these passages in the Quran don't apply to modern Islam but all you have to do is open your eyes and see how they are treated in the majority of Islamic countries. Can you deny it? Listen to what the Mullahs preach every day and there can be no mistaking that Islam today DOES treat women as possesssions while Christian countries do not. Muhammed himself gave husbands permission to beat their wives and did so himself. We see images on television of Muslim men beating women on the street. Come on, who are we trying to kid?
>>I'm confident that Muslims have similar passages and commands to do such within the Koran, which leaves us the extreme militants of each religion as the folks we should be focused on, and not simply the religion of Islam<<
Your kidding yourself. These people's actions are rooted in their religion, how can you ignore that?
Are you two being intentionally obtuse?
Are you two being intentionally obtuse?
>>Tell me, how much of the Bible tells you about the lives of the apostles with their wives?<<
Typical liberal.
::)
>>Bull! You see images in Afghanistan of women being beaten. Fundamentalist and extremist. This is not typical of the Muslim world.<<
Hmmm ... define typical?
How would you know what goes on in Pakistani, or Iranian, or Jordanian households? Address what Muhammad teaches rather than skirting the issue.
Let me make this clear right now. I do not believe that all Muslims are all terrorists, or that all Muslims are wife beaters. I do believe their profit was, and I do believe that Islam condones it. I also believe Islam is a dangerous religion. Proof? Do I really need to provide anything other than a daily newspaper?
No, not all Muslims are dangerous or terrorists. I suggest this majority you speak of get off their ass and do something about the 70 million people who take Muhammad literally, if in fact he wasn't meant to be. I would greatly prefer that they do because if we have to, we will. We will have no choice.
>>Point being Rich, each religion's "textbooks", have passages that would subjugate women & kill the "unclean"., passages that can be so easily applied to the 21st century.<<
They can?
>>I'm confident that Muslims have similar passages and commands to do such within the Koran, which leaves us the extreme militants of each religion as the folks we should be focused on, and not simply the religion of Islam<<
Your kidding yourself. These people's actions are rooted in their religion, how can you ignore that?
>>What would you suggest as a plan of action for the moderates?<<
Given that this 70 million person minority is engaging in armed struggle, I suggest the majority meet them in kind. Since anyone who speaks out against them is under penalty of death anyway, what other choice is there? If they did so, this problem would be dealt with in short order. They should do what Jordon did to the PLO.
Are you two being intentionally obtuse?
A catholic defending the American left and radical Islam.
Disgusting.
Interesting and revealing choice of comment.
Wonder if Richpo thinks a Catholic who defends the "American Left" should be excommunicated? I only posit this because Richpo often seems to assess and offer an opinion of some variance from his lynch rope mentality by first expressing how much he "HATES" it, and then demanding they be severely punished well beyond the pale.
One encounters this same kind of call for universal rigidity of comformity of right-wing subscription among the fundi/evan crowd, which I have railed against for the last ten years--railing against those who say nothing while the loud and rowdy Protestant Right scream on.
Now we see rudimentary and increasing evidence of the Catholic extremists doing the same.
Mel Gibson, that whacky TV Irish Priest who never blinks his eyes, of course Richpo, etc.
Extremism.
Perhaps there are no other Catholics in here, so no shame is then intended for those who remain silent.
Or maybe they agree with Richpo--that it is disgusting that anti-extremism in the Catholic Church maintains a voice.
>>What would you suggest as a plan of action for the moderates?<<
They should do what Jordon did to the PLO.