DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Henny on September 26, 2007, 11:12:56 AM
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Wednesday, Sep. 26, 2007
My Dinner with Ahmadinejad
By Richard Stengel
The invitation was on creamy stationery with fancy calligraphy: The Permanent Representative of the Islamic Republic of Iran "requests the pleasure" of my company to dine with H.E. Dr. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. The dinner is at the Intercontinental Hotel ? with names carefully written out at all the place settings around a rectangular table. There are about 50 of us, academics and journalists mostly. There's Brian Williams across the room, and Christiane Amanpour a few seats down. And at a little after 8pm, on a day when he has already addressed the U.N., the evening after his confrontation at Columbia, a bowing and smiling Mahmoud Admadinejad glides into the room.
This is now an annual ritual for the President of Iran. Every year, during the U.N. General Assembly in New York, he plots out a media campaign that ? in its shrewdness, relentlessness, and quest for attention ? would rival Angelina Jolie on a movie junket. And like any international figure, Mr. Ahmadinejad hones his performance for multiple audiences: in this case, the journalists and academics who can filter his speech and ideas for a wider American audience.
The format of the evening is curious. In his calm and fluent voice ? "dear friends," he calls us ? he requests that we not ask questions, but make statements, so that he can react to them in a form of dialogue. The academics are not shy. They make statements not only about the need for dialogue and reconciliation, but castigate the Iranian government for chilling press freedoms and for arresting Iranian-American scholars who were only trying to foster better relations between America and Iran. Throughout, Ahmadinejad is courtly, preternaturally calm, and fiercely articulate.
After an hour, he is ready to respond. He does so first with a half-hour ode to the relationship between man and God that might have been dictated by the Iranian poet Rumi. "I believe that Almighty God created the universe for mankind. Man is God's most important creation and it is through him that we appreciate the beauties of the universe. God has sent man here on a mission." That mission, he says, is to pursue love, justice, kindness and dignity. In fact, he repeats those works so often that it begins to sound like a mantra: Love. Justice. Kindness. Dignity. He speaks with the quiet zeal of a not-very-flamboyant televangelist. "The pursuit of justice through love and kindness and human dignity can end all conflicts on earth," he says. "Inshallah."
When it comes time for him to address the comments, he does so by citing each speaker by name ? 23 in all, he notes. In contrast with what he calls the lack of respect and dignity accorded to him at Columbia ? where, he says, he found it odd that an academic institution which prizes tolerance would treat him without any ? he addresses each person carefully and patiently. Some highlights:
- Iran has not violated any of the rules of the International Atomic Energy Agency, Ahmadinejad says. He has proposed a multilateral uranium enrichment program with different nations, and can't understand why no one has taken up his offer.
- The US and Iran can play a positive role together in Iraq. "If the US withdraws from Iraq, good things will happen," he says. "I believe that the Iraqi people can rule themselves."
- In the Middle East, Ahmadinejad says the world must allow the Palestinians to decide their future for themselves: "That is the human solution to sixty years of instability." He refers to Israel only as "the Zionist regime" and does not mention the Holocaust.
- Ahmadinejad claims there are thirty newspapers published in Iran that are opposed to his government, citing that as evidence of press freedom in Iran.
- In answer to a question about how he viewed Hitler's legacy, he says, "I view Hitler's role as extremely negative, a despicably dark face."
- He notes that Americans don't understand Iranian history, saying that the movie 300 ? with which he seems intimately familiar ? was a "complete distortion of Iranian history." Iran, he says, has never invaded anyone in its history.
Finally, in response to a question about whether war with Iran was growing more likely, he says, "Mr. Bush is interested in harming Iran. But I believe there are wise politicians in America who will prevent such a war. We hate war. We would not welcome it. But we are prepared for every scenario. Yet I don't think war will happen."
With that, Ahmadinejad says he has an early morning appointment the next day, and that he welcomes greater dialogue like this evening. And then, still composed, and with the same slightly mysterious smile that never leaves his face all evening, he bows deeply and heads upstairs.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1665579,00.html
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- The US and Iran can play a positive role together in Iraq. "If the US withdraws from Iraq, good things will happen," he says.
*snicker*.....reminds me of his answer regarding Homosexuals, that there isn't any in Iran, which begged the follow-up, because you had them al executed perhaps?? Of course good things will happen, if the U.S. pulls out prematurely.....for Iran
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I read an article in this morning's paper that the Iranian people - even those opposed to Ahmadinejad - are surprised at his reception here. This isn't the same article, but popped up on the internet search, and makes some of the same points.
D.C. Area Iranians Criticize Reception Of Ahmadinejad
Hostility Counterproductive, Some Say
By Pamela Constable
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, September 26, 2007; Page A11
Many Iranian Americans in the Washington area describe President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as a provocateur, a hypocrite and an embarrassment to Iran. Yet some are disturbed about the hostile reception Ahmadinejad has received this week during his visit to the United States.
Students, professionals and academics in the region's Iranian emigre community said yesterday that they were frustrated and disappointed that the visit has focused on sensational issues such as Ahmadinejad's denials that the Holocaust occurred and that homosexuality exists in Iran.
Instead, they said they wished that the rare encounter between a senior Iranian official and the U.S. public would raise issues that they consider more pressing to residents of Iran-- such as the oppression of women, the quashing of political dissent and the social control exercised by the country's real powers among the conservative Shiite Muslim clergy.
"I agree that Ahmadinejad is a despicable human being, but he is not a dictator. He cannot dictate anything," said Ahmad Karimi-Hakkak, director of the Persian Studies Center at the University of Maryland. The Iranian president was introduced Monday as a "petty and cruel dictator" by the president of Columbia University, which had been pressured not to let him speak at the New York City campus.
"Technically, he is a nobody in Iran's system, but he likes to make inflammatory comments," said Bijan Ganji, an Iranian-born law student at George Washington University. "He has nothing to say on the issues that really matter to most Iranians: human rights, the lack of political and social freedoms inside Iran. It's especially hard for us here, because we have to keep explaining why we have such a pathetically embarrassing president."
There are thousands of Iranian Americans in the Washington area, many of whom are exiles who fled after the Shiite revolution of 1979. They include surgeons, lawyers, developers and carpet importers. Some are monarchists who long for the return of the pro-Western Pahlavi dynasty, some are secular progressives and others are devout Shiites who think women should be covered in public.
But none of those interviewed yesterday expressed support for Ahmadinejad, 51, a layman with anti-Western views who was elected two years ago on a populist platform. His post is subordinate to those of the country's senior Shiite leader and his clerical advisers. He has called for Israel to be "wiped off the map" and has denied that millions of Jews were killed by the Nazis. He has strongly asserted Iran's right to develop nuclear power for peaceful purposes, but U.S. officials fear that Iran has military nuclear ambitions.
This week, instead of using his U.S. appearances to repudiate his more provocative comments, Ahmadinejad either repeated or softened them. He also provoked more incredulity by denying that there are homosexuals in Iran.
"He had a chance to show a different face of the Iranian government, but he missed the opportunity," said Sam Khazai, a developer in Northern Virginia who moved to the United States from Tehran in 1984. But Khazai, like other emigres, also said it was a mistake for several of Ahmadinejad's hosts and interviewers in the United States to present him with a "laundry list of charges made by the Bush administration," as if they were speaking for the government.
Trita Parsi, president of the National Iranian American Council in Washington, said the hostile atmosphere surrounding Ahmadinejad's visit has been "very counterproductive because it enables him to play the victim card and present himself as a defender of freedom of expression. We need to have dialogue with Iran over serious issues, not the kind of exchange that fuels polarization and becomes a game of insults," Parsi said.
Some Iranian American scholars, puzzling over the president's comments on homosexuality, said Persian culture has historically included the practice of powerful men who keep young boys for sex but are not considered gay. But younger Iranian Americans said there is a gay culture in today's Iran, although it is suppressed by Shiite authorities.
"He probably meant to say that there are pedophiles in Iran but that the country does not recognize homosexuality as an orientation," Karimi-Hakkak surmised. He said Ahmadinejad is unable to relate to such contemporary issues. "He is a genuinely premodern man in postmodern circumstances," Karimi-Hakkak said.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/25/AR2007092502448.html
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(http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/4394/hellerks8.gif)
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I read an article in this morning's paper that the Iranian people - even those opposed to Ahmadinejad - are surprised at his reception here. This isn't the same article, but popped up on the internet search, and makes some of the same points.
D.C. Area Iranians Criticize Reception Of Ahmadinejad
Hostility Counterproductive, Some Say
By Pamela Constable
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, September 26, 2007; Page A11
' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '
"I agree that Ahmadinejad is a despicable human being, but he is not a dictator. He cannot dictate anything," said Ahmad Karimi-Hakkak, director of the Persian Studies Center at the University of Maryland. The Iranian president was introduced Monday as a "petty and cruel dictator" by the president of Columbia University, which had been pressured not to let him speak at the New York City campus.
This then begs several questions.
If he is not a dictator, why did the president of this prestigious university call him one?
Is it that Columbia's president is a not an academic, but is instead, like University of South Florida's president Judy Genshaft, a bitch of the shark frenzy business world, appointed by Jeb Bush in accordance with Neocon plans to roust our universities of academics and intellectuals and replace them with rightwing CEO types?
Or is it that he was just ignorant of the facts, and became a parrot of propaganda? Talk about negative role-modelling for university students--it's president inaccurate in fact because of loose-cannon zeal. It is one thing to censure him for bellying-up to the berserker Sharon Jews, a theory to which I subscribe, but is quite another thing for him to become a witting but careless clone for Neocon spin.
I think it simply reveals to the incredible extent of just how gullible MOST Americans are to the political truths of the world. It is disturbing that the president of a leading university is not beyond rightwing spin and is unable to be more accurate than Sean Hannity in describing the leaders of the world.
I have another question of the president of Columbia:
Many say that Ahmadinejad is simply a powerless puppet in his government: is he more or less a puppet in his government than George W. Bush is in his?
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This then begs several questions.
If he is not a dictator, why did the president of this prestigious university call him one?
Is it that Columbia's president is a not an academic, but is instead, like University of South Florida's president Judy Genshaft, a bitch of the shark frenzy business world, appointed by Jeb Bush in accordance with Neocon plans to roust our universities of academics and intellectuals and replace them with rightwing CEO types?
Or is it that he was just ignorant of the facts, and became a parrot of propaganda? Talk about negative role-modelling for university students--it's president inaccurate in fact because of loose-cannon zeal. It is one thing to censure him for bellying-up to the berserker Sharon Jews, a theory to which I subscribe, but is quite another thing for him to become a witting but careless clone for Neocon spin.
I think it simply reveals to the incredible extent of just how gullible MOST Americans are to the political truths of the world. It is disturbing that the president of a leading university is not beyond rightwing spin and is unable to be more accurate than Sean Hannity in describing the leaders of the world.
I have another question of the president of Columbia:
Many say that Ahmadinejad is simply a powerless puppet in his government: is he more or less a puppet in his government than George W. Bush is in his?
I think he was under immense pressure from "the powers that be" both inside of Columbia and out. He wasn't going to revoke the invitation again, but he had to say something to make it look better. I imagined Bollinger taking Ahmadinejad aside and saying, "Man, I'm sorry, but I've got to say this about you..."
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I think he was under immense pressure from "the powers that be" both inside of Columbia and out. He wasn't going to revoke the invitation again, but he had to say something to make it look better. I imagined Bollinger taking Ahmadinejad aside and saying, "Man, I'm sorry, but I've got to say this about you..."
That I'd thoroughly agree with
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This then begs several questions.
If he is not a dictator, why did the president of this prestigious university call him one?
Is it that Columbia's president is a not an academic, but is instead, like University of South Florida's president Judy Genshaft, a bitch of the shark frenzy business world, appointed by Jeb Bush in accordance with Neocon plans to roust our universities of academics and intellectuals and replace them with rightwing CEO types?
Or is it that he was just ignorant of the facts, and became a parrot of propaganda? Talk about negative role-modelling for university students--it's president inaccurate in fact because of loose-cannon zeal. It is one thing to censure him for bellying-up to the berserker Sharon Jews, a theory to which I subscribe, but is quite another thing for him to become a witting but careless clone for Neocon spin.
I think it simply reveals to the incredible extent of just how gullible MOST Americans are to the political truths of the world. It is disturbing that the president of a leading university is not beyond rightwing spin and is unable to be more accurate than Sean Hannity in describing the leaders of the world.
I have another question of the president of Columbia:
Many say that Ahmadinejad is simply a powerless puppet in his government: is he more or less a puppet in his government than George W. Bush is in his?
I think he was under immense pressure from "the powers that be" both inside of Columbia and out. He wasn't going to revoke the invitation again, but he had to say something to make it look better. I imagined Bollinger taking Ahmadinejad aside and saying, "Man, I'm sorry, but I've got to say this about you..."
I see you trying to rescue Bollinger.
But, suppose you imagine correctly--it hardly redeems Bollinger. One turd dropped directly on top another. Imagine the slouch he would posture in saying such a thing.
This seems to echo the plight of Colin Powell. In going before the UN, Powell too caved to rightwing pressure to present the Neocon truth rather than the real truth.
I would venture that the fate of the two is much the same--thoroughly discredited in the eye of the world despite the rescuers.
The guy or lass I am looking for is the one who, when presented with this package, instructs the would-be pressurer to place the lie where the sun don't shine.
These people have to stand up and rebel against this insidious pressure--the rightwing Neocon pressure here at home and the one extended from Tel Aviv . . . come to think of it, why should I separate them?
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I see you trying to rescue Bollinger.
But, suppose you imagine correctly--it hardly redeems Bollinger. One turd dropped directly on top another. Imagine the slouch he would posture in saying such a thing.
This seems to echo the plight of Colin Powell. In going before the UN, Powell too caved to rightwing pressure to present the Neocon truth rather than the real truth.
I would venture that the fate of the two is much the same--thoroughly discredited in the eye of the world despite the rescuers.
The guy or lass I am looking for is the one who, when presented with this package, instructs the would-be pressurer to place the lie where the sun don't shine.
These people have to stand up and rebel against this insidious pressure--the rightwing Neocon pressure here at home and the one extended from Tel Aviv . . . come to think of it, why should I separate them?
Actually, I was not trying to rescue Bollinger. Somehow, this scenario seems even worse than if he honestly meant what he said.
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What, praytell, is the "truth" about Ahamdinejad that you so covet and complain? It seems to me that in an extremely awkward moment Bollinger found an extremely awkward way out, but one that he had to traverse. Making scapegoats of Jews in this day and age on the heels of the worst atrocity in human history is simply damnable, viewed from a rightie or a leftie perspective.
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gipper, "scapegoating" is what happens when innocents are picked on and made responsible for things they had nothing to do with. Fortunately for the Jews and perhaps unfortunately for some others, they are no longer innocent and powerless bystanders but players and actors who have a lot of guns and muscle and have done stuff that might legitimately be resented by lots of people. I'm against scapegoating but I don't think their former victim status gives them a Get Out of Jail Free card.
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Nor does it give any opponent a "distort-with-impunity" card.
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If anybody's views are being distorted, it's Ahmadinejad's, by the Western MSM. That "wipe Israel off the map" thing is still being attributed to him, despite Juan Cole and others pointing out that "erased from the pages of history," a more passive vision and less violent vision of Israel's ultimate fate, is the better translation. Similarly, the "Holocaust denier" label seems to be a very simplistic label to apply to him, when his views on the subject appear now to be more nuanced.
I have a lot of problems with him and the regime that he represents, but I don't think that unconditional demonization is the answer. I think we oughtta listen to him a little more carefully and respectfully.
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You're setting up strawmen, Tee, and I'll have none of it. Additionally, your nuances, in context or out, are absurd. I have no interest in distorting anything about the Middle East, but downplaying the very existence of the Shoah is the worst kind of demagouery. There are villains here (including Germany and Christian Europe) who have not been called to account in any meaningful way, there are victims turned defenders and aggressors (the Israelis) and there are victims turned terrorists the Palestinians), all three groups hanging onto jaded views of history protecting their prerogatives when history has passed them by. It's a mess, and Ahamdinejad makes it considerably messier, invoking hate not compassion and reason.
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What, praytell, is the "truth" about Ahamdinejad that you so covet and complain? It seems to me that in an extremely awkward moment Bollinger found an extremely awkward way out, but one that he had to traverse. Making scapegoats of Jews in this day and age on the heels of the worst atrocity in human history is simply damnable, viewed from a rightie or a leftie perspective.
I should rephrase my statement.
I meant that I believed Bollinger to be disingenious in his opening remarks.
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<< . . . but downplaying the very existence of the Shoah is the worst kind of demagouery. >>
IF that's what he's actually doing. All I got from his latest utterances was a call for more study. There are plenty of areas that could stand a little more study - - for example, what were the roles of the various American Zionist organizations in this? (Not as simple and as uncomplicated as you might wish to think) To what extent did U.S. corporations participate or benefit? (Ford, IBM in particular) The RCC, which under Pope John-Paul II first offered to open up its Holocaust-era archives to a joint commission of six Jewish and six RC historians, has since reneged on its offer. The subject is enormous - - it presented terrifying moral dilemmas to literally millions of priests, soldiers, statesmen, spies, journalists, police officers and ordinary schoolchildren and housewives of all races and religions, it was a moral cataclysm of unprecedented dimensions, and if Ahmadinejad or anyone else says it needs more study, I would say, Go for it!
<<There are villains here (including Germany and Christian Europe) who have not been called to account in any meaningful way, there are victims turned defenders and aggressors (the Israelis) and there are victims turned terrorists the Palestinians), all three groups hanging onto jaded views of history protecting their prerogatives when history has passed them by.>>
Very well said.
<< It's a mess, and Ahamdinejad makes it considerably messier, invoking hate not compassion and reason.>>
Ahmadinejad himself and his country are a part of that mess. They are caught up in the struggle of the Palestinians, with whom they have good reason and every right to sympathize, and I can certainly understand where that hate is coming from. Not the most constructive way of dealing with the situation, but not exactly unjustified either; all the more reason why guys like him SHOULD study more about the Holocaust. I saw the guy going backward, from denying the Holocaust to saying it needed more study. I also heard him call Hitler evil and despicable. In a way, I think whatever exchange of ideas (mainly one-way vituperation) has taken place since he first appeared to deny the Holocaust, seems to have had a positive effect on him, and I don't see why further exchanges of ideas wouldn't also produce more positive results.
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"...Ahmadinejad, 51, a layman with anti-Western views who was elected two years ago on a populist platform. His post is subordinate to those of the country's senior Shiite leader and his clerical advisers. ..."http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/25/AR2007092502448.html
Is this true?
If he was really elected on a populist platform then he is due the respect due to the voice of his people.
Was his election flawed so severely , by closeing down critics and opponents , that he does not deserve the respect of our nation for his because he does not deserve his own peoples respect?
Reguardless of all other consideration , should he receive respect because we have no better representitive of his people to show respect to?l
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<<Was his election flawed so severely , by closeing down critics and opponents , that he does not deserve the respect of our nation for his because he does not deserve his own peoples respect?>>
Well, he didn't lose the popular vote, only to have the victory handed to him anyway by a politicized Supreme Court, if that's what you're getting at.
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<<Was his election flawed so severely , by closeing down critics and opponents , that he does not deserve the respect of our nation for his because he does not deserve his own peoples respect?>>
Well, he didn't lose the popular vote, only to have the victory handed to him anyway by a politicized Supreme Court, if that's what you're getting at.
Nor did Bush ever have Canadate Gore or even canadate Nader jailed if that is what you are getting at.
I don't know .
If he is really the winner of a real election then we should be honor bound to respect him as the voice of his people.
If he is not, then not .
So the statement " elected on a populist platform" seems key to me , but is it the truth?
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Most Iranian Presidential candidates were "disqualified" by the Guardian Council, which holds veto power over all political candidates in Iran.
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Thank God for Wikipedia and hyperlinking. The Guardian Council is appointed by the Supreme Leader and the other half by the Supreme Leader's nominee. Six clerics and six judges. These folks are NOT living in some kind of Jeffersonian democracy.
What's with this sudden fetish regarding legitimacy based on the choice of the people? I'll bet whatever controls were imposed over Ahmadinejad's election, they weren't anywhere near as tight as those relating to Hosni Mubarak, the King of Jordan, the Emir of Kuwait or the rulers of Saudi Arabia and nobody is questioning their legitimacy.
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Yes, Michael, from what does legitimacy emanate, ideally, realistically, in international law ...?
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nobody is questioning their legitimacy
maybe because they are not about to cause WW3
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<<Yes, Michael, from what does legitimacy emanate, ideally, realistically, in international law ...?>>
I would guess in international law it springs from simple de facto control of a nation and the absence of a legitimate government in exile with a realistic shot at regaining power.
Ideally, I guess, it would have to meet certain moral standards of conduct but I don't think the international law is concerned with that. My rights as a citizen certainly don't depend on how I conduct myself morally and a nation in a community of nations, I would think, would be in an analogous situation. Practically speaking, moral standards DO intrude - - the U.S. did not recognize the U.S.S.R. until Roosevelt's first term, the non-recognition being allegedly due to moral flaws in the "Bolshevik" government. ("They shot their own Czar!") Similarly the U.S. non-recognition of Communist China, but in that case there was at least the fiction of a functioning and real Chinese government in exile on Taiwan. It's interesting, OTOH, to note how quickly recognition came to Franco's fascist state after he overthrew the Spanish Republic by force of arms, with Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy helping.
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MT: <<nobody is questioning their [Egypt's, Kuwait's, Jordan's, Saudi Arabia's] legitimacy
CU4: <<maybe because they are not about to cause WW3>>
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the quavering gibberish from the edge of hysteria calling in
Better lay in plenty of fresh water for your radiation shelter. Don't forget the canned veggies.
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the quavering gibberish from the edge of hysteria calling in
Better lay in plenty of fresh water for your radiation shelter. Don't forget the canned veggies.
i must admit that is funny michael
but i only wish it were true
i sincerely believe if we don't stop iran now
we could see armageddon in our lifetime
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f153/golfchucker/mohammed.jpg)
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I wouldn't go near so far as to claim "armageddon", but I do find a scary trend how in so many generations, there seems to jump up some "group" that wants to rid the world of Jews
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Thank God for Wikipedia and hyperlinking. The Guardian Council is appointed by the Supreme Leader and the other half by the Supreme Leader's nominee. Six clerics and six judges. These folks are NOT living in some kind of Jeffersonian democracy.
What's with this sudden fetish regarding legitimacy based on the choice of the people? I'll bet whatever controls were imposed over Ahmadinejad's election, they weren't anywhere near as tight as those relating to Hosni Mubarak, the King of Jordan, the Emir of Kuwait or the rulers of Saudi Arabia and nobody is questioning their legitimacy.
I have read a LOT in the past about the Iranian people questioning his legitimacy. The problem with that is, we don't know what news is which coming from Iran. We might just be seeing protest pieces rather than mainstream. I'll try to dig some of that up.
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I have read a LOT in the past about the Iranian people questioning his legitimacy. The problem with that is, we don't know what news is which coming from Iran. We might just be seeing protest pieces rather than mainstream. I'll try to dig some of that up.
And after looking around, I'm not so sure what information I had before. The following is similar to everything I'm seeing today:
Profile: Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who was elected Iran's president in June 2005, was an obscure figure when he was appointed mayor of Tehran in the spring of 2003.
He was not much better known when he entered the presidential election campaign, although he had already made his mark as Tehran mayor for rowing back on earlier reforms.
Since his election he has taken a tough stand on a number of foreign policy matters, in line with his hard-line background.
His comments that Israel should be "wiped off the map" and that the Holocaust was a "myth" drew widespread condemnation from the West.
Revolutionary credentials
Mr Ahmadinejad was born in Garmsar, near Tehran, in 1956, the son of a blacksmith, and holds a PhD in traffic and transport from Tehran's University of Science and Technology, where he was a lecturer.
There has been confusion about his role in the 1979 Islamic Revolution.
Several of the 52 Americans who were held hostage in the US embassy in the months after the revolution say they are certain Mr Ahmadinejad was among those who captured them.
He insists he was not there, and several known hostage-takers - now his strong political opponents - deny he was with them.
His website says he joined the Revolutionary Guards voluntarily after the revolution, and he is also reported to have served in covert operations during the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war.
When he became mayor of Tehran, the former revolutionary guard curtailed many of the reforms put in place by the moderates who had run the city before him.
Iran's outgoing reformist president, Mohammad Khatami, barred Mr Ahmadinejad from attending cabinet meetings, a privilege normally accorded to mayors of the capital.
Mr Ahmadinejad reportedly spent no money on his presidential campaign - but he was backed by powerful conservatives who used their network of mosques to mobilise support for him.
He also had the support of a group of younger, second-generation revolutionaries known as the Abadgaran, or Developers, who are strong in the Iranian parliament, the Majlis.
His presidential campaign focused on poverty, social justice and the distribution of wealth inside Iran.
Hard-line approach
During his campaign, he also repeatedly defended his country's nuclear programme, which has worried the US and European Union.
Once in power, he made a defiant speech at the UN on the nuclear issue and refused to back down on Tehran's decision to resume uranium conversion.
He continued his defiance despite the reporting of Iran's nuclear programme to the UN Security Council and the possible threat of sanctions.
He said no power could take away Iran's right to nuclear fuel technology.
Mr Ahmadinejad has maintained a hard line with the US, with whom diplomatic ties were broken in 1979.
At home, he banned Western and "indecent" music from state-run TV and radio stations in December 2005.
However, BBC analyst Sadeq Saba says there have been moves inside Iran to rein in the president.
'Confrontational'
Powerful figures such as former President Akbar Hashemi-Rafsanjani believe Mr Ahmadinejad's confrontational approach has backfired.
They say the US struggled to report Iran to the Security Council for a long time, but with Mr Ahmadinejad's help Washington got what it wanted in a few months.
Mr Ahmadinejad has now made some small-scale concessions to moderates. He said he would not be confrontational in enforcing a campaign in Tehran to insist women obeyed Iran's strict Islamic dress codes.
He has also allowed women into major sporting events for the first time since 1979.
Mr Ahmadinejad maintains a populist streak, calling his personal website Mardomyar, or the People's Friend.
He also has a reputation for living a simple life and campaigned against corruption.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/4107270.stm
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<<i sincerely believe if we don't stop iran now
we could see armageddon in our lifetime>>
Won't be in MY lifetime, 4, I'm a pretty old bird. Remotely possible in my kids' lifetime and they're in their mid-30s. Can't predict what's in store for the grandchildren, they haven't started school yet.
Whatever remote chance there is of a nuclear Armageddon, IMHO, would be far more likely to result from the aggressive policies of the U.S.A. than the actions of any other nation on earth, Iran included. Just as the Balkans, often called "the tinderbox of Europe" in the 1930s, did not precipitate the European phase of WWII, but "civilized" Germany did, so I believe that the U.S. and its undeviating foreign policy of aggression and self-aggrandizement is the likeliest candidate to plunge the world into similar hostilities, particularly as it enters its declining phase.
The likeliest road to Armageddon that I see (and please keep in mind this is a very remote possibility) is a series of small wars, picked with smaller but resource-rich countries without no major allies to defend them, usually ending favourably or unfavourably for the aggressor depending on the amount of backbone its victim can muster, and (hopefully) ending in an increasing number of humiliating defeats, each one pushing the aggressor deeper and deeper into the ambient culture of fascism and militarism. The danger, as always, lies in underestimating the strength of the intended victim, in an age of knowledge and technology explosion. One day the U.S. will pick what seems to be a pushover and learn to their surprise that the "pushover" or its friends and sympathizers have the means to deliver knockout WMD blows to major U.S. targets. This would result in an irrational explosion of anger in the U.S., and indiscriminate attacks on the original victim and its perceived allies and enablers, which in turn could result in further severe repercussions on the U.S.A., possibly including some from unexpected quarters. This is the Doomsday Scenario as I see it.
The model I have in mind is Nazi Germany and its allies - - an unshakeable conviction of the right to rule resulting in an alliance of the rest of the entire world, including the unlikely alliance of England and the U.S. with France, Russia and China. The U.S. could unite most of the world against it. If its present policies continue long enough without modification (an extremely unlikely event, IMHO) then the natural result would be to unite the world against them.
The other Armageddon model is 1914. The continuing policies of U.S. aggression force-feed a natural trend for resource-rich countries who are potential targets to seek alliances with other big powers, likely the newer or still-developing ones like China, India or Russia. Not all of them publicly known. Secret diplomacy returns. A few miscalculations, a strike on a target with friends and a really devastating counter-strike.
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I wouldn't go near so far as to claim "armageddon", but I do find a scary trend how in so many generations, there seems to jump up some "group" that wants to rid the world of Jews
Spoken like a true westerner.
Pray tell Sirs, will you list these generations and groups that wish to see Jews exterminated?
Why do you find that strange, but not groups that wish to see other ethnic or religious groups exterminated?
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JS, I find your oft-expressed hostility to the historical plight of Jews, packaged now as a vindication of the rights of OTHER oppressed, to be a harsh verdict by a would-be compassionate man and a disingenuous distortion of the dynamics of history, laughable coming from a self-proclaimed intellectual of essentially moral concerns.
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Domer, I have nothing but compassion for the historical plight of the Jews. I've even posted a very thought-provoking poem in here by Irving Layton on Christianity's role in the history of Jewish oppression. The only response I received was from a Canadian Jew (thank you Tee).
I've pointed out Fascism and Nazism's relationship with Christianity and the disservice that the modern revisionist view of lumping Nazism in with paganism and occultism does.
I'm also one of the few here who defends the European nations that make it illegal to deny the Holocaust. So, impugn me all you like, but I'll let what I've said speak for itself.
On the other hand, there are many ethnic groups and religious groups that have faced and do face religious persecution. Genocide has happened in history both before and after the Holocaust. It is not a crime against Judaism to point that out Domer.
Despite western views, the Jewish people are not the only people to have ever been oppressed. Moreover, the apartheid state of Israel is doing enough to oppress others as we speak. By all means, call me anti-Semitic (it wouldn't be the first time you've done so), but I cannot roll my eyes hard enough when I read Sirs and others post something like: "I do find a scary trend how in so many generations, there seems to jump up some "group" that wants to rid the world of Jews" with an obvious focus on only Iran and Israel, to the exception of the rest of the world (and the history that goes along with that world).
I know a political hack statement when I read it. There is no compassion there for the historical plight of the Jews, Domer. I think you know that.
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Yes, but the Jews are OUR victims, and we have a role in unraveling the hairball. Your panoramic view of the jolly history of genocide does not address that. Remember, all politics is local, and in a very real sense this problem is "local" for us.
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"JS, I find your oft-expressed hostility to the historical plight of Jews"
JS are you anti-semitic?
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Yes, but the Jews are OUR victims, and we have a role in unraveling the hairball. Your panoramic view of the jolly history of genocide does not address that. Remember, all politics is local, and in a very real sense this problem is "local" for us.
"Our victims?" No more than the Roma, the Native Americans, and the African-Americans.
I don't have a "jolly history of genocide." It is a despicable and repeating aspect of history.
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"JS, I find your oft-expressed hostility to the historical plight of Jews"
JS are you anti-semitic?
No.
Are you?
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Yes, take responsibility for what is ours. While the Roma are stretching it for my historical lineage, I take my share of responsibility for blacks and Native Americans. It seems that you want to dilute to the point of rinse-water your responsibility -- and your heritage's -- for the plight of Jews.
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JS, I find your oft-expressed hostility to the historical plight of Jews"
JS are you anti-semitic?
================================================
One observes that people do not ask, ever, if someone is anti-Gypsy or a host of otherr things one might be, as though anti-semitism is some sort of diabolic disease, and all that profess it should be treated as lepers or worse.
The AIPAC seems to have been quite successful in tainting anyone who does not approve is everything that Israel does or opposes any part of the vast aid that the US donates to this very small middle-class country to which the US donates more than any other, is anti-semitic and should be ostracized entirely, all their ideas should be rejected. But anti-semitism as defined nowadays is defined by the AIPAC, and their contention is that anti-Zionist is equivalent to anti-semitism.
I note that they seem to have not managed to taint Jimmy Carter with this, but are still going after any academics- even Jewish ones- that disagree with Israeli policies and handouts to Israel. There must have been some interesting AIPAC committee meetings discussing Carter and others.
A person who disagrees with Israel is anti-Zionist, not anti semitic, by the way. A true anti Semite should have scribbled at least one swastika, I think.
There was a time when being Jewish in the US was a disadvantage, but that time has passed long ago. American Jews have more power and more money and more representation in Congress than damn near any other group. They are over represented in Congress and the Senate and vastly overrepresented in the bureaucracy.
This is rarely pointed out, though, because anyone doing the pointing would be accused of anti-semitism.
If I am a descendant of an Ulster Catholic, and I feel that SinnFein or the Provos have the right idea about uniting all of Eire's 33 counties, and I send them money, I will likely be jailed if caught. I am not allowed to express my political belief that all of Ireland should be united.
On the other hand, I can send all the money I wish to AIPAC, and lobby my government to subsidize Israel's colonization fo the WB and constant mistreatment of Palestinians, I will never be chastized, not even in the papers.
There is not even a word for being anti-Irish unity that I can use to lambaste my detractors like anti-Semitic.
I would like to point out that I am partly of Irish ancestry, and think that a united Ireland is a pretty good idea, especially since the Auld Sod has gotten mostly rid of the Brits as well as the insufferable wet blanket to progress that was the Holy Mother Roman Catholic Church, and is now the most prosperous nation in the EEC. I don't support the Sinn Fein or the Provos, because I think they have become counter productive and irrelevant these days. I expect that eventually the Ulster Protestants will see that union with the Euro-based EEC and the Irish Republic will be greatly to their advantage. This might take a couple of generations, but the days of suffering as Frank McCourt did in Limerick are over and the wait will not be painful at all.
.
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Yes, take responsibility for what is ours. While the Roma are stretching it for my historical lineage, I take my share of responsibility for blacks and Native Americans. It seems that you want to dilute to the point of rinse-water your responsibility -- and your heritage's -- for the plight of Jews.
My heritage is German as well, so the Roma are fully a part, if you look at it from your perspective.
But I do see it from a very world point of view. I'm a socialist. It is the class struggle that concerns me most. Tell me something Domer, when you drive or walk around Mott Haven in the South Bronx, St. Ann's Avenue - who do you see?
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I happen to drive and walk around the Castle Hill section o the Bronx, truth be told, a black and Hispanic area, mostly, and I see friends. What's your point?
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As long as we're asking personal questions, socialist, what do you do when you go to work?
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I happen to drive and walk around the Castle Hill section o the Bronx, truth be told, a black and Hispanic area, mostly, and I see friends. What's your point?
I see the face of Christ in the poor, destitute, hopeless. It does not matter what religion or ethnic background they represent. It does not matter what beliefs they hold or what choices they've made in the past. New York, Nashville, Atlanta, Gaza, Tehran, Cairo, London, Baghdad...
That is Christianity. That is Socialism.
If you want to know what I believe, that's what I believe.
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As long as we're asking personal questions, socialist, what do you do when you go to work?
Are you asking what I do for a living?
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Yes, what do you do for a living?
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Are you?
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa56/USA2008/muslim_land.jpg)
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Yes, what do you do for a living?
I'm a fiscal analyst with the state.
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Observe that, other than the war budget for Iraq and Afghanistan, teensy middle-class Israel, gets more foreign aid from the US than all of those pink countries.
And Israel is an unwelcome colony planed in hostile territory.
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>>I'm a fiscal analyst with the state.<<
LMFAO!
It makes perfect sense.
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>>Observe that, other than the war budget for Iraq and Afghanistan, teensy middle-class Israel, gets more foreign aid from the US than all of those pink countries.<<
What is the amount of foriegn aid given to Israel and those pink countries?
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(http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s141/plwise2/islammurderer.jpg)
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It really simplifies life when you can focus exclusively on one side's casualties.
Unfortunately for the Palestinians, they have many more Shiri Negaris than the Israelis do, but neither the money nor the PR skills to exploit them so creatively.
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JS, I find your oft-expressed hostility to the historical plight of Jews"
JS are you anti-semitic?
================================================
One observes that people do not ask, ever, if someone is anti-Gypsy or a host of otherr things one might be, as though anti-semitism is some sort of diabolic disease, and all that profess it should be treated as lepers or worse.
The AIPAC seems to have been quite successful in tainting anyone who does not approve is everything that Israel does or opposes any part of the vast aid that the US donates to this very small middle-class country to which the US donates more than any other, is anti-semitic and should be ostracized entirely, all their ideas should be rejected. But anti-semitism as defined nowadays is defined by the AIPAC, and their contention is that anti-Zionist is equivalent to anti-semitism.
I note that they seem to have not managed to taint Jimmy Carter with this, but are still going after any academics- even Jewish ones- that disagree with Israeli policies and handouts to Israel. There must have been some interesting AIPAC committee meetings discussing Carter and others.
A person who disagrees with Israel is anti-Zionist, not anti semitic, by the way. A true anti Semite should have scribbled at least one swastika, I think.
There was a time when being Jewish in the US was a disadvantage, but that time has passed long ago. American Jews have more power and more money and more representation in Congress than damn near any other group. They are over represented in Congress and the Senate and vastly overrepresented in the bureaucracy.
This is rarely pointed out, though, because anyone doing the pointing would be accused of anti-semitism.
If I am a descendant of an Ulster Catholic, and I feel that SinnFein or the Provos have the right idea about uniting all of Eire's 33 counties, and I send them money, I will likely be jailed if caught. I am not allowed to express my political belief that all of Ireland should be united.
On the other hand, I can send all the money I wish to AIPAC, and lobby my government to subsidize Israel's colonization fo the WB and constant mistreatment of Palestinians, I will never be chastized, not even in the papers.
There is not even a word for being anti-Irish unity that I can use to lambaste my detractors like anti-Semitic.
I would like to point out that I am partly of Irish ancestry, and think that a united Ireland is a pretty good idea, especially since the Auld Sod has gotten mostly rid of the Brits as well as the insufferable wet blanket to progress that was the Holy Mother Roman Catholic Church, and is now the most prosperous nation in the EEC. I don't support the Sinn Fein or the Provos, because I think they have become counter productive and irrelevant these days. I expect that eventually the Ulster Protestants will see that union with the Euro-based EEC and the Irish Republic will be greatly to their advantage. This might take a couple of generations, but the days of suffering as Frank McCourt did in Limerick are over and the wait will not be painful at all.
.
Excellent points about the invisibility of the Jews.
Part of the camoflage enabling this is the tactical weapon of conspiracy theory label, which when once applied, renders the observer feeling too much a fool to speak up. When addiction experts wandered into the study of shaming, they too were attacked as those every bit as foolish as conspiracy theorists.
Shaming is all about control. Shaming is not part of the human emotional palette; it is not native to one, but can only be internalized or not, coming though always from another. A man alone knows no shame, shame is not guilt, shame is a binding from without. Your average puritan is a eunech without its use. The history of religions reveals that shaming works almightally when it comes to stalling the chattel and rowing the fields. Keep making them feel humble. When the flocks begin to stray, brother, use your tools.
Domer, normally a player and a dude, when hearing 'Jewish' sees the Queen of Diamonds card, and presents only the attempt to shame, which will carry all of the effluvencies in direct proportion to the guilt he thinks he shoulders, but is really the shame the Jews were able to introduce into him by the pallets-full.
Domer, then, is disqualified to opine of anything Jewish, henceforth, therapeutically, lest his raging emotional dysfunction careens him into his own self's way, harmfully. When feasibly deprogrammed, he will of course be encouraged to display what is in reality a true and noble brilliance, batteried by a heart of gold, and a wit all worthy fops would dop a hat to.
During his family week, I shall embrace him (I have always liked him) and weep with him as he, raging against the agonies of again tasting that bitterest slinking betrayal, realizes just how intimately he was abused by that rabbi's pointy finger.
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I wouldn't go near so far as to claim "armageddon", but I do find a scary trend how in so many generations, there seems to jump up some "group" that wants to rid the world of Jews
Spoken like a true westerner. Pray tell Sirs, will you list these generations and groups that wish to see Jews exterminated?
Just off the top of my head,
Ahmaimanutjob
Hamas
PLO/PA
Hitler
Roman Empire
Assyrians
Babylonians
Philistines
Egyptians
Just to name a few
Why do you find that strange, but not groups that wish to see other ethnic or religious groups exterminated?
I don't
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Although I thought domer went too far in giving the Jews a pass based on the Holocaust, I'm more disturbed by crane's correction than I was by domer's excessive solicitude. Domer was at least coming from the right place and recognized that the roots of the Palestinian problem lie in European anti-semitism, which is to say Christian anti-semitism. That "rabbi's pointy finger" was making a very valid point and domer got it. Crane's post left me with the feeling that he just didn't get it. And that would be like validating all of the past's anti-semitism or at least ignoring the way it continues to make victims out of both the Jews and the Palestinians by pitting them against each other.
The points against AIPAC were valid as far as they went, but seem to overlook the fact that AIPAC gets away with all its shit because people LET IT get away with it, Jews and non-Jews alike. AIPAC is probably one of the worst enemies the Jewish people will ever face, because it enables and encourages them to fuck with people they should never be fucking with and invites an inevitable payback, possibly on a very large scale.
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(http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s141/plwise2/islammurderer.jpg)
Do you know who Rachel Corrie is?
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Do you know who Rachel Corrie is?
Don't you know she doesn't count, JS? ::)
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I wouldn't go near so far as to claim "armageddon", but I do find a scary trend how in so many generations, there seems to jump up some "group" that wants to rid the world of Jews
Spoken like a true westerner. Pray tell Sirs, will you list these generations and groups that wish to see Jews exterminated?
Just off the top of my head,
Ahmaimanutjob
Hamas
PLO/PA
Hitler
Roman Empire
Assyrians
Babylonians
Philistines
Egyptians
Just to name a few
The PLO recognizes Israel's existence.
Egypt? When?
The Romans put down revolts in Israel, the same as they did in other provinces. They also exalted military conquerors as heroes in their society, and the Middle East (for a period of time) proved a good place as any to test one's merits on the battlefield.
I notice you left off probably the biggest culprit in anti-Semitism and Jewish mistreatment.
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Do you know who Rachel Corrie is?
Don't you know she doesn't count, JS? ::)
I guess she wasn't as pretty as this girl.
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JS, I find your oft-expressed hostility to the historical plight of Jews"
JS are you anti-semitic?
================================================
One observes that people do not ask, ever, if someone is anti-Gypsy or a host of otherr things one might be, as though anti-semitism is some sort of diabolic disease, and all that profess it should be treated as lepers or worse.
The AIPAC seems to have been quite successful in tainting anyone who does not approve is everything that Israel does or opposes any part of the vast aid that the US donates to this very small middle-class country to which the US donates more than any other, is anti-semitic and should be ostracized entirely, all their ideas should be rejected. But anti-semitism as defined nowadays is defined by the AIPAC, and their contention is that anti-Zionist is equivalent to anti-semitism.
I note that they seem to have not managed to taint Jimmy Carter with this, but are still going after any academics- even Jewish ones- that disagree with Israeli policies and handouts to Israel. There must have been some interesting AIPAC committee meetings discussing Carter and others.
A person who disagrees with Israel is anti-Zionist, not anti semitic, by the way. A true anti Semite should have scribbled at least one swastika, I think.
There was a time when being Jewish in the US was a disadvantage, but that time has passed long ago. American Jews have more power and more money and more representation in Congress than damn near any other group. They are over represented in Congress and the Senate and vastly overrepresented in the bureaucracy.
This is rarely pointed out, though, because anyone doing the pointing would be accused of anti-semitism.
If I am a descendant of an Ulster Catholic, and I feel that SinnFein or the Provos have the right idea about uniting all of Eire's 33 counties, and I send them money, I will likely be jailed if caught. I am not allowed to express my political belief that all of Ireland should be united.
On the other hand, I can send all the money I wish to AIPAC, and lobby my government to subsidize Israel's colonization fo the WB and constant mistreatment of Palestinians, I will never be chastized, not even in the papers.
There is not even a word for being anti-Irish unity that I can use to lambaste my detractors like anti-Semitic.
I would like to point out that I am partly of Irish ancestry, and think that a united Ireland is a pretty good idea, especially since the Auld Sod has gotten mostly rid of the Brits as well as the insufferable wet blanket to progress that was the Holy Mother Roman Catholic Church, and is now the most prosperous nation in the EEC. I don't support the Sinn Fein or the Provos, because I think they have become counter productive and irrelevant these days. I expect that eventually the Ulster Protestants will see that union with the Euro-based EEC and the Irish Republic will be greatly to their advantage. This might take a couple of generations, but the days of suffering as Frank McCourt did in Limerick are over and the wait will not be painful at all.
.
XO, you raise some really good points. I want to nitpick for a minute, not to be an ass, but to make a point that is important to this discussion.
First, there are thirty-two counties in Ireland, not thirty-three hence the famous Sinn Fein posters 26 + 6 = 1. Also, the Roman Catholic Church is still very much active in Ireland and Northern Ireland, much more so than the rest of Europe, even Italy. The Catholic Church's stance on Northern Ireland was always one of peaceful resolution, but also equal rights for Catholics. It was a tough line to walk really, but they could no other. The Church simply could not support armed insurrection, though notably there were priests who did (and who remain priests to this day).
But, your point is excellent. And in truth the IRA, CIRA, RIRA, and PIRA have been historically funded by people in the United States, almost always of Irish Catholic heritage. As an aside, the money and much of the arms came from the United States, but some of the arms were bought from Libya with American money at the height of the period in which America and Libya were at a stand-off!
The British call those Americans (or any Americans that wave around their Irish ancestry) "plastic paddies." Meaning that they are fake, false, wannabes. On the other hand, the Irish love them (except you'd probably not be well received by Ian Paisely and his crew).
So, I wonder why we have such a phenomena of plastic Zionists. They refuse to see the apartheid and violence, deprivation, and terror brought down on the Palestinians - yet they cheer when Israel goes to war and they mourn when an Israeli is killed. If you so much as peacefully protest with a Palestinian, you're a terrorist. If you say something bad about the Israeli Government, you're anti-Semitic. If you aid the Israelis, you're a patriot.
Plastic Zionism is bizarre indeed.
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The PLO recognizes Israel's existence.
NOW they do. When Arafat was running things, that sure wasn't the case
Egypt? When?
Moses doesn't ring a bell? Oh, I'm sorry, I should have included mass enslavement along with mass killing. My bad
The Romans put down revolts in Israel, the same as they did in other provinces. They also exalted military conquerors as heroes in their society, and the Middle East (for a period of time) proved a good place as any to test one's merits on the battlefield.
Which doesn't negate my above parameters
I notice you left off probably the biggest culprit in anti-Semitism and Jewish mistreatment.
You'll have to elaborate on that, since I have no idea how that defines any "group" targeting Jews for enslavement or extermination
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Moses doesn't ring a bell? Oh, I'm sorry, I should have included mass enslavement along with mass killing. My bad
Historically speaking, most of the archaeological proof has shown that it is unlikely that the Jews were slaves in Egypt at all. It is more likely that they were very low paid laborers, as were many Egyptians.
Which doesn't negate my above parameters
LOL - really? So any nation that puts down a rebellion is guilty of racial extermination now? What does that make the Union during the American Civil War? Give me some historical facts, Sirs.
You'll have to elaborate on that, since I have no idea how that defines any "group" targeting Jews for enslavement or extermination
Who segregated Jews into their own ghettoes and placed yellow markers on them? I'll give you a hint, the Nazis did not invent the idea.
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"teensy middle-class Israel, gets more foreign aid from the US than all of those pink countries"
well duh. look at the map. it's pretty clear what they face.
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>>Do you know who Rachel Corrie is?<<
Yes, and good riddance.
(http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/rachel-corrie-flag-02.jpg)
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>>Do you know who Rachel Corrie is?<<
Yes, and good riddance.
Right. She hurt no one, was an American citizen, and was killed by the IDF.
But the good Christian brother Rich celebrates her death.
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I heard some of her supporters held a pancake breakfast to raise funds for her memorial.
Kind of Ironic, ain't it?
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I heard some of her supporters held a pancake breakfast to raise funds for her memorial.
Kind of Ironic, ain't it?
Old hate material? I heard that joke from a plastic Zionist back when it happened. ::)
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Well it IS funny.
Poor Racheal should have had used her brains while she still had them.
Again, Good riddance. Perhaps her senseless death contributed something. What it could be, I have no idea.
Less noise? Less hate? Fewer lies?
Apparentely not. The left just get's more and more Nazi-like. Truth be damned.
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And the hate continues to spew...
Amazing that Christ never spoke like that, isn't it?
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JS has taken up the mantle of Christ? So now it's he, rather than me that judges other Christians?
:D
Spare me your self righteous liberal claptrap.
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JS has taken up the mantle of Christ? So now it's he, rather than me that judges other Christians?
:D
Spare me your self righteous liberal claptrap.
Nah. I just thought some self-described Christians could act like it sometimes.
Hope against hope...
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Okay, you are right 32 counties, not 33. I am not that much of an Irish patriot, I guess. My great-great-great-great grandfather Demarius Brady came to Georgia in the 1830's and eventually owned a plantation in Lowndes County. Sometime before the Civil War (or the Wah between the States, as that part of the family called it), he returned to Ireland for a year and became a 33rd degree Mason in the Grand Lidge of Dublin, which was meant to mean that he was not just another shanty Catholic Irishman. He hung his masonic apron on the gate to Long Cane Plantation and the Union officer who came a-marching through came in for a nice dinner rather than to burn down the plantation, or so the legand goes.
Somehow the Lowdes County Courthouse was burned down, with all the records, and the next bit of news was that my grandmother was born on land he had bought on speculation in North Texas.
The Catholic Church ratted out numerous Irish patriots throughout history, as well as being as I said, a vast wet blanket on the culture of a creative people who became educated more despite the Holy Mother Church than because of it.
In any event, if I donate money to Sinn Fein, I can be arrested for suporting a terrorist organization. If I donate to AIPAC that's okay. And that is hypocritical. Why should the Jews be given a spare country at the expense of American taxpayers, and the Irish not?
Martyrdom is an integral element of the Jewish religion. The Irish had martyrs too, but all of them were killed by the British (some of my other ancestors, like the Haworths from Yorkshire).
Even if Zionism is a noble idea, why should I be forced to support it with my taxes? I do not have to support an independent Kurdistan, Kashmir or any other place?
If I have to support health care for Americans, I could benefit, since I am American, and I could get sick or injured.
It is unlikely that I will become Jewish.
I hope this makes the difference obvious.
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In any event, if I donate money to Sinn Fein, I can be arrested for suporting a terrorist organization.
Then you'd think the US government would be smart enough to shut down the "Friends of Sinn Fein" group which collects money in the US to support them.
http://www.sinnfein.ie/fosf/usa (http://www.sinnfein.ie/fosf/usa)
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re: Do you know who Rachel Corrie is?
Please tell me you are not equating Rachel Corrie who was in an IDF designated security zone by choice, an area the
IDF had designated a security zone for operations designed to uncover a network of smuggling tunnels, to a young girl
sitting on a civilian commuter bus that was blown to smithereens by a group intentionally targeting civilians for death?
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>>Nah. I just thought some self-described Christians could act like it sometimes.<<
Unlike you, I don't pretend to be something I'm not Oh holy one.
::)
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>>Please tell me you are not equating Rachel Corrie who was in an IDF designated security zone by choice, an area the
IDF had designated a security zone for operations designed to uncover a network of smuggling tunnels, to a young girl
sitting on a civilian commuter bus that was blown to smithereens by a group intentionally targeting civilians for death?<<
You know if JS knew anything about this, other than what he's read about on liberal hate sites, he'd know Ms. Corrie was asking for it. She'd been asking for it for years. If fact, most people who knew her found her to be mentally unstable. She was driven by her illness and the hate that it fueled. She's just another bit of propaganda for the thumbsuckers to use to prove how evil the Jews are.
Now, compare JS's concern for poor little Corrie, to the Israelis killed by people like her:
List of victims by date:
Sept 27, 2000 - Sgt. David Biri, 19, of Jerusalem, was fatally wounded in a bombing near Netzarim in the Gaza Strip.
Sept 29, 2000 - Border Police Supt. Yosef Tabeja, 27, of Ramle was shot to death by his Palestinian counterpart on a joint patrol near Kalkilya.
Oct 1, 2000 - Border Police Cpl. Madhat Yusuf, 19, of Beit Jann, died of gunshot wounds sustained in a gun battle with Palestinians at Joseph's Tomb in Nablus.
Oct 2, 2000 - Wichlav Zalsevsky, 24, of Ashdod, was shot in the head in the village of Masha on the trans-Samaria highway.
Sgt. Max Hazan, 20, of Dimona, died of gunshot injuries sustained near Beit Sahur.
Oct 8, 2000 - The bullet-riddled body of Hillel Lieberman, 36, of Elon Moreh was found at the southern entrance to Nablus.
Oct 12, 2000 - First Cpl. Yosef Avrahami and First Sgt. Vadim Norzhich, 33, two reserve IDF soldiers, were lynched by a Palestinian mob at the police building in Ramallah.
Oct 19, 2000 - Rabbi Binyamin Herling, 64, of Kedumim, was killed when Fatah members and Palestinian security forces opened fire on a group of Israeli men, women, and children on a trip at Mount Ebal near Nablus.
Oct 28, 2000 - The body of Marik Gavrilov, 25, of Bnei Aysh was found inside his burned-out car, between the village of Bitunia and Ramallah.
Oct 30, 2000 - Eish-Kodesh Gilmor, 25, of Mevo Modi'in, was shot and killed while on duty as a security guard at the National Insurance Institute's East Jerusalem branch. Another guard was injured.
Amos Machlouf, 30, of the Gilo neighborhood in Jerusalem, was found murdered in a ravine near Beit Jala.
Nov 1, 2000 - Lt. David-Hen Cohen, 21, of Karmiel and Sgt. Shlomo Adshina, 20, of Kibbutz Ze'elim were killed in a shooting incident in the Al-Hader area, near Bethlehem.
Nov 1, 2000 - Maj. (res.) Amir Zohar, 34, of Jerusalem was killed in the Nahal Elisha settlement in the Jordan Valley while on active reserve duty.
Nov 2, 2000 - Ayelet Shahar Levy, 28, and Hanan Levy, 33, were killed in a car bomb explosion near the Mahane Yehuda market in Jerusalem. 10 people were injured in the blast. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
Nov 8, 2000 - Noa Dahan, 25, of Moshav Mivtahim in the south, was shot to death while driving to her job at the Rafah border crossing in Gaza.
Nov 10, 2000 - Sgt. Shahar Vekret, 20, of Lod was fatally shot by a Palestinian sniper near Rachel's Tomb at the entrance to Bethlehem.
Nov 11, 2000 - Sgt. 1st Class Avner Shalom, 28, of Eilat, was killed in a shooting attack at the Gush Katif junction in the Gaza Strip.
Nov 13, 2000 - Sarah Leisha, 42, of Neveh Tzuf was killed by gunfire from a passing car while travelling near Ofra, north of Ramallah.
Cpl. Elad Wallenstein, 18, of Ashkelon, and Cpl. Amit Zanna, 19, of Netanya were killed by gunfire from a car passing the military bus carrying them near Ofra.
Nov 13, 2000 - Gabi Zaghouri, 36, of Netivot was killed by gunfire directed at the truck he was driving near the Kissufim junction in the southern part of the Gaza Strip.
Nov 18, 2000 - St.-Sgt. Baruch (Snir) Flum, 21, of Tel-Aviv was shot and killed by a senior Palestinian Preventive Security Service officer who infiltrated the Kfar Darom greenhouses in the Gaza Strip.
St.-Sgt. Sharon Shitoubi, 21, of Ramle, wounded in the Palestinan shooting attack in Kfar Darom, died of his wounds on Nov 20.
Nov 20, 2000 - Miriam Amitai, 35, and Gavriel Biton, 34, both of Kfar Darom, were killed when a roadside bomb exploded alongside a bus carrying children from Kfar Darom to school in Gush Katif. Nine others, including 5 children, were injured.
Nov 21, 2000 - Itamar Yefet, 18, of Netzer Hazani died from a gunshot wound to the head by Palestinian sniper fire at the Gush Katif junction.
Nov 22, 2000 - Shoshana Reis, 21, of Hadera, and Meir Bahrame, 35, of Givat Olga, were killed, and 60 wounded when a powerful car bomb was denotated alongside a passing bus on Hadera's main street, when the area was packed with shoppers and people driving home from work. 60 were wounded in the blast.
Nov 23, 2000 - Lt. Edward Matchnik, 21, of Beersheba, was killed in an explosion at the District Coordination Office near Gush Katif in the Gaza Strip. (The joint DCOs were established at the borders of Palestinian-ruled areas under the interim peace accords and were responsible for coordinating security and humanitarian cooperation.)
Nov 23, 2000 - Sgt. Samar Hussein, 19, of Hurfeish, was killed when Palestinian snipers opened fire at soldiers patrolling the border fence near the Erez crossing.
Nov 24, 2000 - Maj. Sharon Arameh, 25, of Ashkelon was killed by Palestinian sniper fire in fighting near Neve Dekalim in the Gaza Strip.
Nov 24, 2000 - Ariel Jeraffi, 40, of Petah Tikva, a civilian employed by the IDF, was killed by Palestinian fire as he travelled near Otzarin in the West Bank.
Dec 8, 2000 - Rina Didovsky, 39, a Beit Hagai school teacher on her way to work, and Eliyahu Ben-Ami, 41, of Otniel, the driver of the van, were killed when a car full of gunmen opened fire on the van near Kiryat Arba.
Dec 8, 2000 - Sgt. Tal Gordon, 19, was killed when gunmen in a passing car opened fire on an Egged bus traveling south from Tiberias to Jerusalem on the Jericho bypass road.
Dec 21, 2000 - Eliahu Cohen, 29, of Modi'in was shot and killed tonight by Palestinian terrorists waiting in ambush on the road between Givat Ze'ev and Beit Horon.
Dec 28, 2000 - Capt. Gad Marasha, 30, of Kiryat Arba and Border Police Sgt.-Maj. Yonatan Vermullen, 29, of Ben-Shemen, were killed when called to dismantle a road-side bomb near the Sufa crossing in the Gaza Strip. The bomb was dismantled, but another bomb exploded, killing both and injuring two other soldiers. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
Dec 31, 2000 - Binyamin Zeev Kahane, the son of the late right-wing leader Meir Kahane, and his wife, Talia, were killed when Palestinian snipers opened fire while they were driving on the Ramallah bypass road. Five of their children, aged two months to 10 years, were injured.
Jan 5, 2001 - The body of Mordechai Cohen, 34, of Hadera was found in the Caesarea industrial area.
Jan 14, 2001 - The bullet-ridden body of Ron Tzalah, 32, of Kfar Yam in Gush Katif, apparently killed on Sunday night (Jan 14), was found the following morning near the Kfar Yam hothouses.
Jan 17, 2001 - Ofir Rahum, 16, of Ashkelon, traveled to Jerusalem to meet a young woman with whom he had conducted a relationship over the Internet. She then drove him toward Ramallah. At a prearranged location, another vehicle drove up and three Palestinian gunmen inside shot Rahum more than 15 times. One terrorist drove off with Rahum's body and dumped it, while the others fled in the second vehicle.
Jan 23, 2001 - Motti Dayan, 27, and Etgar Zeituny, 34, cousins from Tel Aviv, were abducted from a restaurant in Tulkarem by masked Palestinian gunmen and executed.
Jan 25, 2001 - Akiva Pashkos, 45, of Jerusalem, was shot dead in a terror attack near the Atarot industrial zone north of Jerusalem.
Jan 29, 2001 - Arye Hershkowitz, 55, of Ofra, was killed by shots fired from a passing car near the Rama junction north of Jerusalem.
Feb 1, 2001 - Dr. Shmuel Gillis, 42, of Carmei Tzur, was killed by Palestinian gunmen who fired at his car near the Aroub refugee camp on the Jerusalem-Hebron highway.
Feb 1, 2001 - Lior Attiah, 23, of Afula was shot to death by terrorists while traveling near Jenin.
Feb 4, 2001 - Ishmael Abadyev, 35, of Tirat Hacarmel, was stabbed to death by two terrorists from Jenin as he alighted from the bus on his way home from work.
Feb 5, 2001 - St.-Sgt. Rujayah Salameh, 23, was killed by sniper fire near Rafah.
Feb 11, 2001 - Tzachi Sasson, 35, of Kibbutz Rosh Tzurim in Gush Etzion, was shot and killed by Palestinian gunmen as he drove home from Jerusalem.
Feb 14, 2001 - Simcha Shitrit, 30, of Rishon Lezion; Staff-Sgt. Ofir Magidish, 20, of Kiryat Malachi; Sgt. David Iluz, 21, of Kiryat Malachi; Sgt. Julie Weiner, 21, of Jerusalem; Sgt. Rachel Levi, 19, of Ashkelon; Sgt. Kochava Polanski, 19, of Ashkelon; Cpl. Alexander Manevich, 18, of Ashkelon; and Cpl. Yasmin Karisi, 18, of Ashkelon were killed when a bus driven by a Palestinian terrorist plowed into a group of soldiers and civilians waiting at a bus stop near Holon, south of Tel-Aviv. In addition, 25 people were injured in the attack.
Feb 26, 2001 - The body of Mordechai Shefer, 55, of Kfar Sava, was found in an olive grove near Moshav Hagor. An autopsy revealed that he was murdered. Investigators suspect terrorist motives.
Mar 1, 2001 - Claude Knap, 29, of Tiberias was killed and 9 people injured when a terrorist detonated a bomb in a Tel Aviv to Tiberias service taxi at the Mei Ami junction in Wadi Ara.
Mar 4, 2001 - Naftali Dean, 85, of Tel Mond; his niece, Shlomit Ziv, 58, of Netanya; and Yevgenya Malchin, 70, of Netanya were killed in a suicide bombing in downtown Netanya; 60 people were injured. The Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Mar 19, 2001 - Baruch Cohen, 59, of Efrat, was killed by shots fired at his car while driving to work in Jerusalem from his home in the Gush Etzion area. After being hit by bullets, he lost control of the car and collided with an oncoming truck.
Mar 26, 2001 - Shalhevet Pass, age 10 months, was killed by sniper fire at the entrance to the Avraham Avinu neighborhood in Hebron.
Mar 28, 2001 - Eliran Rosenberg-Zayat, 15, of Givat Shmuel and Naftali Lanzkorn, 13, of Petah Tikva were killed in a suicide bombing at the Mifgash Hashalom ("peace stop") gas station several hundred meters from an IDF roadblock near the entrance to Kalkilya, east of Kfar Saba. Four people were injured. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Apr 1, 2001 - Staff Sgt. Ya'akov Krenschel, 23, of Nahariya, an IDF reserve soldier, was killed in a firefight between army and Palestinian forces southeast of Nablus.
Apr 1, 2001 - Dina Guetta, 42, of Haifa, was stabbed to death on Ha'atzmaut Street. Her murder was the initiation rite into a terrorist cell apprehended in July.
Apr 2, 2001 - Sgt. Danny Darai, 20, of Arad, was killed by a Palestinian sniper after completing guard duty at Rachel's Tomb at the entrance to Bethlehem.
Apr 21, 2001 - The mutilated body of Stanislav Sandomirsky, 38, of Beit Shemesh, was found in the trunk of his car near a village north of Ramallah late last night. Terrorist motives are suspected.
Apr 22, 2001 - Dr. Mario Goldin, 53, of Kfar Sava, was killed when a terrorist detonated a powerful bomb he was carrying near a group of people waiting at a bus stop on the corner of Weizman and Tchernichovsky streets. About 60 people were injured in the blast. Hamas claimed responsibility.
Apr 28, 2001 - Sgt. Shlomo Elmakias, 20, of Netanya, was killed and four women passengers wounded in a drive-by terrorist shooting attack on the Wadi Ara highway in the Galilee.
Apr 28, 2001 - Simcha Ron, 60, of Nahariya, was found stabbed to death in Kfar Ba'aneh, near Carmiel in the Galilee. The terrorists responsible for the attack were apprehended in July.
May 1, 2001 - Assaf Hershkowitz, 30, of Ofra, was killed when his vehicle was fired upon and overturned at a junction between Ofra and Beit El.
May 8, 2001 - Arnaldo Agranionic, 48, was murdered by terrorists as he guarded the Binyamin Farm, a lonely outpost where he lived, on an isolated hilltop east of Itamar in Samaria.
May 9, 2001 - Yossi Ish-Ran, 14, and Kobi Mandell, 14, both of Tekoa, were found stoned to death in a cave about 200 meters from the small community south of Jerusalem where they lived.
May 10, 2001 - Constantin Straturula, 52, and Virgil Martinesc, 29, two Romanian citizens employed by an Israeli contractor, were killed in a bomb attack while repairing a vandalized fence at the Kissufim Crossing into the Gaza District.
May 15, 2001 - Idit Mizrahi, 20, of Rimonim, was fatally shot in a terrorist ambush as she drove with her father and brother on the Alon Highway to attend a family wedding. Terrorists fired 30 bullets, 19 of which hit the family's car.
May 18, 2001 - Tirza Polonsky, 66, of Moshav Kfar Haim; Miriam Waxman, 51, of Hadera; David Yarkoni, 53, of Netanya; Yulia Tratiakova, 21, of Netanya; and Vladislav Sorokin, 34, of Netanya were killed in a suicide bombing at Hasharon Mall in the seaside city of Netanya, in which over 100 were wounded. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
May 18, 2001 - Lt. Yair Nebenzahl, 22, of Neve Tzuf (Halamish), was killed and his mother seriously wounded, in a Palestinian roadside ambush north of Jerusalem.
May 23, 2001 - Asher Iluz, 33, of Modi'in was killed outside Ariel en route to supervise a road paving in the area, when Palestinian gunmen opened fire in an ambush.
May 25, 2001 - The burnt body of Yosef Alfasi, 50, of Rishon Letzion, was discovered near the West Bank city of Tulkarem.
May 29, 2001 - Gilad Zar, 41, of Itamar, was shot dead in a terrorist ambush while driving in the West Bank between Kedumim and Yizhar. The Fatah Tanzim claimed responsibility for the attack.
May 29, 2001 - Sara Blaustein, 53, and Esther Alvan, 20, of Efrat, were killed in a drive-by shooting near Neve Daniel in the Gush Etzion bloc south of Jerusalem. The Fatah Tanzim claimed responsibility for the attack.
May 31, 2001 - Zvi Shelef, 63, of Mevo Dotan, was killed in a drive-by shooting attack in northern Samaria north of Tulkarem. He was shot in the head and died en route to hospital.
June 1, 2001 - Marina Berkovizki, 17, of Tel Aviv; Roman Dezanshvili, 21, of Bat Yam; Ilya Gutman, 19, of Bat Yam; Anya Kazachkov, 16, of Holon; Katherine Kastaniyada-Talkir, 15, of Ramat Gan; Aleksei Lupalu, 16, of the Ukraine; Mariana Medvedenko, 16, of Tel Aviv; Irina Nepomneschi, 16, of Bat Yam; Yelena Nelimov, 18, of Tel Aviv; Yulia Nelimov, 16, of Tel Aviv; Raisa Nimrovsky, 15, of Netanya; Pvt. Diez (Dani) Normanov, 21, of Tel Aviv; Simona Rodin, 18, of Holon; Ori Shahar, 32, of Ramat Gan; Liana Sakiyan, 16, of Tel Aviv; Maria Tagilchev, 14, of Netanya; and Irena Usdachi, 18, of Holon were killed when a suicide bomber blew himself outside a disco near Tel Aviv's Dolphinarium along the seafront promenade just before midnight on Friday. Sergei Panchenko, 20, of the Ukraine; Yael-Yulia Sklianik, 15, of Holon; Jan Bloom, 25, of Ramat Gan; and Yevgenia Dorfman, 15, of Bat Yam died subsequently from their injuries. 120 people were wounded in the bombing.
June 11, 2001 - Yehuda Shoham, aged 5 months, of Shilo, died of injuries incurred in a fatal stoning on June 5. He was critically injured by a rock thrown at the family's car near Shilo in Samaria.
June 11, 2001 - Boris Korover, 59, of Homesh was killed near his home in an apparent car accident later defined as a terror attack.
June 12, 2001 - Father Georgios Tsibouktzakis, 34, a Greek Orthodox monk from the St. George Monastery in Wadi Kelt in the Judean desert, was shot and killed while driving on the Jerusalem-Ma'ale Adumim road.
June 14, 2001 - Lt.Col. Yehuda Edri, 45, of Ma'ale Adumim was killed by a Palestinian informant for Israeli intelligence in a shooting attack on the Bethlehem bypass tunnel road connecting the Gush Etzion bloc with Jerusalem. One of his security guards was seriously injured.
June 18, 2001 - Dan Yehuda, 35, of Homesh was killed in a drive-by shooting attack between Homesh and Shavei Shomron, near Nablus. Alex Briskin, 17, was moderately injured.
June 18, 2001 - Doron Zisserman, 38, of Einav, was shot and killed in his car by sniper fire near the entrance to Einav, east of Tulkarem. Fatah claimed responsibility for the attack.
June 20, 2001 - Ilya Krivitz, 62, of Homesh in Samaria was shot and killed at close range in an ambush late Wednesday afternoon in the nearby Palestinian town of Silat a-Dahar.
June 22, 2001 - Sgt. Aviv Iszak, 19, of Kfar Saba, and Sgt. Ofir Kit, 19, of Jerusalem, were killed in a suicide bombing near Dugit in the Gaza Strip as a jeep with yellow Israeli license plates, supposedly stuck in the sand, blew up as they approached.
June 28, 2001 - Ekaterina (Katya) Weintraub, 27, of Ganim in northern Samaria was killed and another woman injured late Thursday afternoon by shots fired at the two-car convoy on the Jenin bypass road.
July 2, 2001 - Aharon Obadyan, 41, of Zichron Ya'akov was shot and killed near Baka a-Sharkia, north of the West Bank city of Tulkarem and close to the 1967 Green Line border, after shopping at the local market.
July 2, 2001 - The body of Yair Har Sinai, 51, of Susiya in the Hebron hills, missing since Monday (July 2) was found early Tuesday morning shot in the head and chest.
July 4, 2001 - Eliahu Na'aman, 32, of Petah Tikva, was shot at point-blank range just inside the Green Line at Sueika, near Tulkarem.
July 9, 2001 - Capt. Shai Shalom Cohen, 22, of Pardes Hanna, was killed and another soldier was wounded when an explosive charge detonated beneath their jeep after leaving the Adoraim IDF base south of Hebron.
July 13, 2001 - Yehezkel (Hezi) Mualem, 49, father of four from Kiryat Arba, was shot and killed between Kiryat Arba and Hebron while protesting a shooting attack in the area the previous day.
July 14, 2001 - David Cohen, 28, of Betar Illit, died of injuries sustained in a drive-by shooting in Kiryat Arba on July 12.
July 16, 2001 - Cpl. Hanit Arami, 19, and St.Sgt. Avi Ben Harush, 20, both of Zichron Yaakov, were killed and 11 wounded - 3 seriously - when a bomb exploded in a suicide terrorist attack at a bus stop near the train station in Binyamina, halfway between Netanya and Haifa, at about 19:30 Monday evening. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
July 24, 2001 - The body of Yuri Gushchin, 18, of Jerusalem, brutally murdered, bearing stab and gunfire wounds, was found in Ramallah.
July 26, 2001 - Ronen Landau, 17, of Givat Ze'ev, was shot and killed by Palestinian terrorists while returning home from Jerusalem with his father.
Aug 5, 2001 - Tehiya Bloomberg, 40, of Karnei Shomron, mother of five and 5 months pregnant, was killed when Palestinian gunmen opened fire on the family vehicle between Alfei Menashe and Karnei Shomron. Three people were seriously wounded, including her husband, Shimon, and daughter, Tzippi, 14.
Aug 6, 2001 - Yitzhak Snir, 51, of Ra'anana, an Israeli diamond merchant, was shot dead in Amman, in the yard of the building where he kept a flat. His body was found the following morning.
Aug 7, 2001 - Wael Ghanem, 32, an Arab Israeli resident of Taibeh, was shot and killed by Palestinian assailants on the road near Kalkilya. Police believe he was murdered because of suspected collaboration with Israeli authorities.
Zohar Shurgi, 40, of Moshav Yafit in the Jordan Valley, was shot and killed by terrorists while driving home at night on the Trans-Samaria Highway.
Aug 9, 2001 - Giora Balash, 60, of Brazil; Zvika Golombek, 26, of Carmiel; Shoshana Yehudit Greenbaum, 31, of the U.S.; Tehila Maoz, 18, of Jerusalem; Frieda Mendelsohn, 62, of Jerusalem; Michal Raziel, 16, of Jerusalem; Malka Roth, 15, of Jerusalem; Mordechai Schijveschuurder, 43, of Neria; Tzira Schijveschuurder, 41, of Neria; Ra'aya Schijveschuurder, 14, of Neria; Avraham Yitzhak Schijveschuurder, 4, of Neria; Hemda Schijveschuurder, 2, of Neria; Lily Shimashvili, 33, of Jerusalem; Tamara Shimashvili, 8, of Jerusalem; and Yocheved Shoshan, 10, of Jerusalem were killed and about 130 injured in a suicide bombing at the Sbarro pizzeria on the corner of King George Street and Jaffa Road in the center of Jerusalem. Hamas and the Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
Aug 9, 2001 - Aliza Malka, 17, a boarding student at Kibbutz Merav, was killed by terrorists in a drive-by shooting at the entrance to the kibbutz in the Gilboa region, west of Beit She'an. Three teenage girls who were with her in the car were injured, one seriously.
Aug 25, 2001 - Maj. Gil Oz, 30, of Kfar Sava; St.-Sgt. Kobi Nir, 21, of Kfar Sava; and Sgt. Tzahi Grabli, 19 of Holon were killed and seven soldiers wounded when two Palestinian terrorists infiltrated an IDF base in Gush Katif in the Gaza Strip at about 3:00 AM Saturday morning. The attackers, members of the PLO Fatah faction and of the Palestinian security forces, were killed by IDF soldiers. The Democratic Front claimed responsibility for the attack.
Aug 25, 2001 - Sharon, 26, and Yaniv Ben-Shalom, 27, of Ofarim, were killed when Palestinian gunmen opened fire on their car as they were returning home on the Jerusalem-Modi'in on road Saturday night. Their children, aged one and two, were lightly wounded. Sharon's brother, Doron Sviri, 20, of Jerusalem was fatally wounded and died the following day.
Aug 26, 2001 - Dov Rosman, 58, of Netanya was killed in a shooting attack shortly before 17:00 on Sunday afternoon near the entrance to the village of Zaita, opposite Kibbutz Magal. Fatah claimed responsibility for the attack.
Aug 27, 2001 - Meir Lixenberg, 38, of Itamar, father of five, was shot and killed by Palestinian terrorists from a roadside ambush while traveling between the communities of Har Bracha and Itamar, south of Nablus.
Aug 29, 2001 - Oleg Sotnikov, 35, of Ashdod, a truck driver employed by Dor Energy, was killed in a terrorist shooting attack outside the Palestinian village of Kutchin, west of Nablus.
Aug 30, 2001 - Amos Tajouri, 60, of Modi'in, was shot in the head at point-blank range by a masked gunman in the Arab village of Na'alin, while dining at a restaurant owned by close friends.
Sept 6, 2001 - Lt. Erez Merhavi, 23, of Moshav Tarum was killed in an ambush shooting near Kibbutz Bahan, east of Hadera, while driving to a wedding. A female officer with him in the car was seriously injured. Fatah-Tanzim claimed responsibility for the attack.
Sept 9, 2001 - Ya'akov Hatzav, 42, of Hamra in the Jordan Valley, the driver, and Sima Franko, 24, of Beit She'an, a kindergarten teacher, were killed in a shooting attack 300 meters south of the Adam Junction in the Jordan Valley. A minibus transporting teachers to the regional school was attacked by Palestinian terrorists.
Sept 9, 2001 - Dr. Yigal Goldstein, 47, of Jerusalem; Morel Derfler, 45, of Mevasseret Zion; and Sgt. Daniel Yifrah, 19, of Jerusalem were killed and some 90 injured, most lightly, in a suicide bombing near the Nahariya train station in northern Israel.
Sept 11, 2001 - Border Policemen Sgt. Tzachi David, 19, of Tel-Aviv, and St.-Sgt. Andrei Zledkin, 26, of Carmiel, were killed just after midnight when Palestinian gunmen opened fire on the Ivtan Border Police base near Kibbutz Bachan in central Israel. A Fatah group claimed responsibility for the attack.
Sept 12, 2001 - Ruth Shua'i, 46, of Alfei Menashe, was traveling home around 19:30 PM when shots were fired from a passing vehicle near the village of Habla near Kalkilya. She sustained injuries to her head and stomach and died en route to Meir Hospital in Kfar Saba.
Sept 15, 2001 - Meir Weisshaus, 23, of Jerusalem, was fatally shot late Saturday night in a drive-by shooting on the Ramot-French Hill road in northern Jerusalem.
Sept 16, 2001 - Sgt. David Gordukal, 23, of Upper Nazareth, was killed in the exchange of fire on Saturday night in the south of Ramallah, during which five senior Palestinian terrorists were arrested and a number of Palestinian positions and a Force 17 camp were attacked.
Sept 20, 2001 - Sarit Amrani, 26, of Nokdim, was killed Thursday morning and her husband Shai was seriously wounded in a shooting attack near Tekoa, south of Bethlehem. The couple's three children who were traveling in the vehicle were not injured. Fatah claimed responsibility for the attack.
Sept 24, 2001 - Salit Sheetrit, 28, of Kibbutz Sde Eliyahu was killed by gunfire shortly after 6:30 near Shadmot Mehola on the Jordan Valley road. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
Sept 26, 2001 - Zvia Pinhas, 64, of Moshav Maor was stabbed to death in her home. The terrorist who carried out the attack, from Jenin, was arrested.
Oct 2, 2001 - Cpl. Liron Harpaz, 19, of Alei Sinai, and Assaf Yitzhaki, 20, of Lod, were killed when a Palestinian terrorist cell infiltrated the northern Gaza District community of Alei Sinai, opening fire on residents and hurling grenades into homes. 15 others were wounded in the attack.
Oct 4, 2001 - Sgt. Tali Ben-Armon, 19, an off-duty woman soldier from Pardesia, Haim Ben-Ezra, 76, of Givat Hamoreh, and Sergei Freidin, 20, of Afula were killed when a Palestinian terrorist, dressed as an Israeli paratrooper, opened fire on Israeli civilians waiting at the central bus station in Afula. 13 other Israelis were wounded in the attack. Fatah claimed responsibility for the attack.
Oct 5, 2001 - Hananya Ben-Avraham, 46, of Elad was killed by Palestinian terrorists in a machine gun ambush near Avnei Hefetz in central Israel.
Oct 7, 2001 - Yair Mordechai, 43, of Kibbutz Sheluhot was killed when a Palestinian suicide terrorist detonated a large bomb strapped to his body near the entrance of the kibbutz in the Beit She'an Valley.
Oct 17, 2001 - Tourism Minister Rechavam Ze'evy, 75, was assassinated by two shots to the head outside his room at the Jerusalem Hyatt Hotel. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine claimed responsibility for the attack.
Oct 18, 2001 - Lior Kaufman, 30, of Ramat Sharon was killed and two injured, one seriously, by shots fired by terrorists at their jeep in the Judean desert, near the Mar Saba monastery.
Oct 28, 2001 - St.-Sgt. Yaniv Levy, 22, of Zichron Yaakov was killed by Palestinian terrorists in a drive-by machine-gun ambush near Kibbutz Metzer in northern Israel. The Tanzim wing of Arafat's Fatah faction claimed responsibility for the murder.
Oct 28, 2001 - Ayala Levy, 39, of Elyachin; Smadar Levy, 23, of Hadera; Lydia Marko, 63, of Givat Ada; and Sima Menahem, 30, of Zichron Yaakov were killed when two Palestinian terrorists, members of the Palestinian police, armed with assault rifles and expanding bullets, opened fire from a vehicle on Israeli pedestrians at a crowded bus-stop in downtown Hadera. About 40 were wounded, three critically. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsiblity for the attack.
Nov 2, 2001 - St.-Sgt. Raz Mintz, 19, of Kiryat Motzkin was killed by Palestinian gunmen 5:45 P.M. on Friday at an IDF roadblock at near Ofra, north of Ramallah. The Fatah-affiliated Al-Aksa Brigade claimed responsibility for the attack.
Nov 4, 2001 - Shoshana Ben Ishai, 16, of Betar Illit and Menashe (Meni) Regev, 14, of Jerusalem were killed when a Palestinian terrorist opened fire with a sub-machine gun shortly before 16:00 at a No. 25 Egged bus at the French Hill junction in northern Jerusalem. 45 people were injured in the attack.
Nov 6, 2001 - Capt. (Res.) Eyal Sela, 39, of Moshav Nir Banim, was shot dead in an ambush by three Palestinian terrorists on the southern Nablus bypass road.
Nov 9, 2001 - Hadas Abutbul, 39, of Mevo Dotan in northern Samaria was shot and killed by Palestinian terrorists on Friday afternoon as she drove from work in nearby Shaked.
Nov 11, 2001 - Aharon Ussishkin, 50, head of security at Moshav Kfar Hess, east of Netanya, was shot and killed at the entrance to the moshav on Sunday evening, after being summoned to investigate a suspicious person.
Nov 24, 2001 - St.-Sgt. Barak Madmon, 26, of Holon, an IDF reservist, was killed by a mortar shell that landed in the soccer field of Kfar Darom in Gush Katif, while on his way to take up guard duty. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Nov 27, 2001 - Noam Gozovsky, 23, of Moshav Ramat Zvi, and Michal Mor, 25, of Afula were killed when two Palestinian terrorists from the Jenin area opened fire with Kalashnikov assault rifles on a crowd of people near the central bus station in Afula. Police officers and a reserve soldier confronted them, killing the terrorists in the ensuing firefight. Another 50 people were injured, 10 of them moderately to seriously. Fatah and the Islamic Jihad claimed joint responsibility.
Nov 27, 2001 - Etty Fahima, 45, of Netzer Hazani was killed three others were injured when a Palestinian terrorist threw grenades and opened fire at a convoy on the road between the Kissufim crossing and Gush Katif in the Gaza Strip on Tuesday evening. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Nov 29, 2001 - 1st Sgt. Yaron Pikholtz, 20, of Ramat Gan, was killed and a second soldier was injured in a drive-by shooting incident on the Green Line, near the West Bank village of Baka el-Sharkiya.
Nov 29, 2001 - Inbal Weiss, 22, of Zichron Ya'akov; Yehiav Elshad, 28, of Tel-Aviv; and Samuel Milshevsky, 45, of Kfar Sava were killed and nine wounded in a suicide bombing on an Egged 823 bus en route from Nazereth to Tel Aviv near the city of Hadera. The Islamic Jihad and Fatah claimed responsibility for the attack.
Dec 1, 2001 - Assaf Avitan, 15, of Jerusalem; Michael Moshe Dahan, 21, of Jerusalem; Israel Ya'akov Danino, 17, of Jerusalem; Yosef El-Ezra, 18, of Jerusalem; Sgt. Nir Haftzadi, 19, of Jerusalem; Yuri (Yoni) Korganov, 20, of Ma'alei Adumim; Golan Turgeman, 15, of Jerusalem; Guy Vaknin, 19, of Jerusalem; Adam Weinstein, 14, of Givon Hahadasha, and Moshe Yedid-Levy, 19, of Jerusalem were killed and about 180 injured - 17 seriously - when explosive devices were detonated by two suicide bombers close to 11:30 P.M. Saturday night on Ben Yehuda Street, the pedestrian mall in the center of Jerusalem. A car bomb exploded nearby 20 minutes later. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Ido Cohen, 17, of Jerusalem, fatally injured in the attack, died of his wounds on December 8.
Dec 2, 2001 - Prof. Baruch Singer, 51, of Gedera was killed when Palestinian gunmen opened fire on his car near the northern Gaza settlement of Elei Sinai. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Dec 2, 2001 - Tatiana Borovik, 23, of Haifa; Mara Fishman, 51, of Haifa; Ina Frenkel, 60, of Haifa; Riki Hadad, 30, of Yokne'am; Ronen Kahalon, 30, of Haifa; Samion Kalik, 64, of Haifa; Mark Khotimliansky, 75, of Haifa; Cecilia Kozamin, 76, of Haifa; Yelena Lomakin, 62, of Haifa; Rosaria Reyes, 42, of the Philippines; Yitzhak Ringel, 41, of Haifa; Rassim Safulin, 78, of Haifa; Leah Strick, 73, of Haifa; Faina Zabiogailu, 64, of Haifa; Mikhail Zaraisky, 71, of Haifa were killed and 40 injured in a suicide bombing on an Egged bus No. 16 in Haifa shortly after 12:00. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Dec 12, 2001 - Yair Amar, 13, of Emmanuel; Esther Avraham, 42, of Emmanuel; Border Police Chief Warrant Officer Yoel Bienenfeld, 35, of Moshav Tel Shahar; Moshe Gutman, 40, of Emmanuel; Avraham Nahman Nitzani, 17, of Betar Illit; Yirmiyahu Salem, 48, of Emmanuel; Israel Sternberg, 46, of Emmanuel; David Tzarfati, 38, of Ginot Shomron; Hananya Tzarfati, 32, of Kfar Saba; Ya'akov Tzarfati, 64, of Kfar Saba were killed when three terrorists attacked a No. 189 Dan bus and several passenger cars with a roadside bomb, anti-tank grenades, and light arms fire near the entrance to Emmanuel in Samaria at 18:00 P.M. About 30 others were injured. Both Fatah and Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Haim Chiprot, 52, of Emmanuel, injured in the attack, died of his wounds on March 25, 2002.
Dec 17, 2001 - Zion Ohana, 45, of Adam was brutally murdered by three residents of Jaba in Samaria.
Dec 25, 2001 - Sgt. Michael Sitbon, 23, of Beit Shemesh, an IDF reserve soldier, was killed, and four other soldiers were injured, in a shooting attack Tuesday morning near the Jordanian border north of Beit She'an.
Jan 9, 2002 - Maj. Ashraf Hawash, 28, of Beit Zarzir; Sgt.-Maj. Ibrahim Hamadieh, 23, of Rehaniya; Sgt.-Maj. Hana (Eli) Abu-Ghanem, 25, of Haifa; and St.-Sgt. Mofid Sawaid, 25, of Abu Snan, four IDF soldiers of the Bedouin desert patrol unit, were killed and two injured when two armed Palestinian terrorists from the southern Gaza Strip, carrying explosive belts, assault rifles, grenades, and dressed in Palestinian Authority police uniforms, infiltrated into Israel at 04:30 this morning and attacked an IDF post near Kerem Shalom. The terrorists, one a member of the Palestinian Authority's naval force, and the second a Hamas operative, were killed. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Jan 14, 2002 - Sgt. Elad Abu-Gani, 19, of Tiberias, was killed and an officer sustained gunshot wounds in a terrorist ambush near Kuchin, between Nablus and Tulkarm. Fatah claimed responsibility for the attack.
Jan 15, 2002 - Avraham (Avi) Boaz, 71, of Ma'aleh Adumim, an American citizen, was kidnapped at a PA security checkpoint in Beit Jala. His bullet-riddled body was found in a car in Beit Sahur, in the Bethlehem area. The Fatah's Al-Aksa Brigade claimed responsibility for the murder.
Jan 15, 2002 - Yoela Chen, 45, of Givat Ze'ev, was shot and killed by Palestinian terrorists near the gas station at the entrance to Givat Ze'ev shortly before 20:00. Her aunt who was with her in the car was injured. The Fatah's Al-Aqsa Brigade claimed responsibility for the murder.
Jan 16, 2002 - Shahada Dadis, 30, an Arab resident of Beit Hanina in East Jerusalem, was killed in a drive-by terrorist shooting. He was found dead in a car bearing Israeli license plates south of Jenin in the West Bank.
Jan 17, 2002 - Edward Bakshayev, 48, of Or Akiva; Anatoly Bakshayev, 63, of Or Akiva; Aharon Ben Yisrael-Ellis, 32, of Ra'anana; Dina Binayev, 48, of Ashkelon; Boris Melikhov, 56, of Sderot; and Avi Yazdi, 25, of Hadera were killed and 35 injured, several seriously, when a terrorist burst into a bat mitzva reception in a banquet hall in Hadera shortly before 23:00, opening fire with an M-16 assault rifle. The Fatah Al-Aqsa Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.
Jan 22, 2002 - Sarah Hamburger, 79, and Svetlana Sandler, 56, both of Jerusalem, were killed and 40 were injured when a Palestinian terrorist opened fire with an M-16 assault rifle near a bus stop in downtown Jerusalem. The Fatah Al-Aqsa Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.
Jan 27, 2002 - Pinhas Tokatli, 81, of Jerusalem was killed and over 150 people were wounded, four seriously, in a suicide bombing on Jaffa Road, in the center of Jerusalem, shortly before 12:30. The female terrorist, identified as a Fatah member, was armed with more than 10 kilos of explosives.
Feb 6, 2002 - Miri Ohana, 45, and her daughter Yael, 11, were murdered in their home when an armed terrorist infiltrated Moshav Hamra, halfway between Jericho and Beit She'an in the Jordan Valley on Wednesday evening, opening fire. IDF reserve soldier, St.-Sgt. Maj.(res.) Moshe Majos Meconen, 33, of Beit She'an, was also killed in the attack. The terrorist, who entered the Ohana home disguised in IDF uniform, was killed by IDF forces. Both Fatah and Hamas claimed responsibility.
Feb 8, 2002 - Moranne Amit, 25, of Kibbutz Kfar Hanasi was stabbed to death by four Palestinians, aged 14 to 16, while strolling on the Sherover Promenade in Jerusalem's Armon Hanatziv neighborhood Friday afternoon.
Feb 9, 2002 - Atala Lipobsky, 78, of Ma'ale Ephraim was shot dead on Saturday night while driving on the Trans-Samaria Highway with her son. Palestinian gunmen opened fire on the car, apparently from an ambush, between Ariel and the Tapuah Junction.
Feb 10, 2002 - Lt. Keren Rothstein, 20, of Ashkelon and Cpl. Aya Malachi, 18, of Moshav Ein Habesor were killed in a drive-by terrorist shooting at the entrance to the IDF Southern Command base in Be'er Sheva. Four others were wounded, one critically. One of the terrorists was killed at the scene; the second, wearing an explosives belt, fled in the direction of a nearby school when he was shot and killed by a soldier and police officer. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Feb 14, 2002 - St.-Sgt. Ron Lavie, 20, of Katzrin, St.-Sgt. Moshe Peled, 20, of Rehovot, and St.-Sgt. Asher Zaguri, 21, of Shlomi were killed and four soldiers injured when a powerful mine exploded under a IDF tank on the Karni-Netzarim road in the Gaza Strip Thursday night, following the detonation of a roadside bomb at a civilian convoy of cars and a bus.
Feb 15, 2002 - St.-Sgt. Lee Nahman Akunis, 20, of Holon, was shot and killed by gunmen on Friday night at a roadblock north of Ramallah. The Fatah's Al-Aksa Brigade claimed responsibility for the attack.
Feb 16, 2002 - Nehemia Amar, 15, and Keren Shatsky, 15, both of Ginot Shomron were killed and about 30 people were wounded, six seriously, when a suicide bomber blew himself up on Saturday night at a pizzeria in the shopping mall in Karnei Shomron in Samaria. Rachel Thaler, 16, of Ginot Shomron died of her wounds on February 27. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine claimed responsibility for the attack.
Feb 18, 2002 - Policeman Ahmed Mazarib, 32, of the Bedouin village Beit Zarzir in the Galilee, was killed by a suicide bomber whom he had stopped for questioning on the Ma'ale Adumim-Jerusalem road. The terrorist succeeded in detonating the bomb in his car. The Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.
Feb 18, 2002 - Ahuva Amergi, 30, of Ganei Tal in Gush Katif was killed and a 60-year old man was injured when a Palestinian terrorist opened fire on her car. Maj. Mor Elraz, 25, of Kiryat Ata and St.-Sgt. Amir Mansouri, 21, of Kiryat Arba, who came to their assistance, were killed while trying to intercept the terrorist. The terrorist was killed when the explosives he was carrying were detonated. The Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.
Feb 19, 2002 - Lt. Moshe Eini, 21, of Petah Tikva; St.-Sgt. Benny Kikis, 20, of Carmiel; St.-Sgt. Mark Podolsky, 20, of Tel Aviv; St.-Sgt. Erez Turgeman, 20, of Jerusalem; St.-Sgt. Tamir Atsmi, 21, of Kiryat Ono; and St.-Sgt. Michael Oxsman, 21, of Haifa were killed and one wounded in an attack near a roadblock west of Ramallah. Several terrorists opened fire at soldiers at the roadblock, including three off-duty soldiers inside a structure at the roadblock, killing them at point-blank range. The Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.
Feb 21, 2002 - Minhal Dragma, 22, of Baka al-Garbiya, was killed when a terrorist opened fire at IDF soldiers at the entrance to Baka al-Sharkiya.
Feb 22, 2002 - Valery Ahmir, 59, of Beit Shemesh was killed by terrorists in a drive-by shooting on the Atarot-Givat Ze'ev road north of Jerusalem as he returned home from work. Fatah claimed responsibility for the attack.
Feb 25, 2002 - Avraham Fish, 65, and Aharon Gorov, 46, both of Nokdim, were killed in a terrorist shooting attack between Tekoa and Nokdim, south of Bethlehem. Fish's daughter, 9 months pregnant, was seriously injured but delivered a baby girl. The Fatah al-Aksa Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.
Feb 25, 2002 - Police officer 1st Sgt. Galit Arbiv, 21, of Nesher, died after being fatally shot, when a terrorist opened fire at a bus stop in the Neve Ya'akov residential neighbhorhood in northern Jerusalem. Eight others were injured, two seriously. The Fatah al-Aksa Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.
Feb 27, 2002 - Gad Rejwan, 34, of Jerusalem, was shot and killed early Wednesday morning by one of his Palestinian employees in a factory in the Atarot industrial area, north of Jerusalem. Two Fatah groups issued a joint statement taking responsibility for the murder.
Feb 28, 2002 - IDF soldier St.-Sgt. Haim Bachar, 20, of Tel Aviv was killed during clashes with Palestinians in the Balata refugee camp near Nablus. IDF forces entered the camp to search for wanted terrorists.
Mar 1, 2002 - IDF soldier Sgt. Ya'acov Avni, 20, of Kiryat Ata was killed by Palestinian sniper fire in the Jenin refugee camp.
Mar 2, 2002 - The bullet-ridden body of Jerusalem police detective Chief-Supt. Moshe Dayan, 46, of Ma'aleh Adumim, was discovered next to his trail motorcycle, near the Mar Saba Monastery in the Judean Desert. Tanzim claimed responsibility for the attack.
Mar 2, 2002 - Eleven people were killed and over 50 were injured, 4 critically, in a suicide bombing at 19:15 on Saturday evening near a yeshiva in the ultra-Orthodox Beit Yisrael neighborhood in the center of Jerusalem where people had gathered for a bar-mitzva celebration. The terrorist detonated the bomb next to a group of women waiting with their baby carriages for their husbands to leave the nearby synagogue. The victims: Shlomo Nehmad (40), his wife Gafnit (32), and their daughters Shiraz (7) and Liran (3), of Rishon Lezion; Shaul Nehmad (15), of Rishon Lezion; Lidor Ilan (12) and his sister Oriah (18 months), of Rishon Lezion; Tzofia Ya'arit Eliyahu (23) and her son Ya'akov Avraham (7 months), of Jerusalem. Avi Hazan, 37, of Moshav Adora, died of his injuries on Monday morning (Mar 4). Avraham Eliahu Nehmad, 7, of Rishon Lezion, died of his injuries on June 20. The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade took responsibility for the attack.
Mar 3, 2002 - Ten Israelis - 7 soldiers and 3 civilians - were killed and 6 injured when a terrorist opened fire at an IDF roadblock near Ofra in Samaria: Capt. Ariel Hovav, 25, of Eli; Lt.(res.) David Damelin, 29, of Kibbutz Metzar; 1st Sgt.(res.) Rafael Levy, 42, of Rishon Lezion; Sgt.-Maj.(res.) Avraham Ezra, 38, of Kiryat Bialik; Sgt.-Maj.(res.) Eran Gad, 24, of Rishon Letzion; Sgt.-Maj.(res.) Yochai Porat, 26, of Kfar Sava; Sgt.-Maj.(res.) Kfir Weiss, 24, of Beit Shemesh; Sergei Birmov, 33, of Ariel; Vadim Balagula, 32, of Ariel; and Didi Yitzhak, 66, of Eli. The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade claimed responsibility for the attack.
Mar 3, 2002 - Sgt. Steven Kenigsberg, 19, of Hod Hasharon was killed and 4 soldiers injured when a Palestinian gunman opened fire near the Kissufim crossing in the Gaza Strip. The Islamic Jihad and Tanzim claimed responsibility for the attack.
Mar 5, 2002 - Police officer FSM Salim Barakat, 33, of Yarka; Yosef Habi, 52, of Herzliya; and Eli Dahan, 53, of Lod were killed and over 30 people were wounded in Tel-Aviv when a Palestinian terrorist opened fire on two adjacent restaurants shortly after 2:00 AM. The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade claimed responsibility for the attack.
Mar 5, 2002 - Devorah Friedman, 45, of Efrat, was killed and her husband injured in shooting attack on the Bethlehem bypass "tunnel road", south of Jerusalem. The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade claimed responsibility for the attack.
Mar 5, 2002 - Maharatu Tagana, 85, of Upper Nazareth was killed and a large number of people injured, most lightly, when a suicide bomber exploded in an Egged No. 823 bus as it entered the Afula central bus station. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
Mar 6, 2002 - 1st Lt. Pinhas Cohen, 23, of Jerusalem, was killed overnight near the southern Gaza town of Khan Yunis, in the course of anti-terrorist activity. Cpl.(res.) Alexander Nastarenko, 37, of Netanya was killed when Palestinian gunmen crossed the border fence and ambushed an army jeep on the patrol road near Kibbutz Nir Oz.
Mar 7, 2002 - Arik Krogliak of Beit El, Tal Kurtzweil of Bnei Brak, Asher Marcus of Jerusalem, Eran Picard of Jerusalem, and Ariel Zana of Jerusalem, all aged 18, were killed and 23 people were injured, four seriously, when a Palestinian gunman penetrated the pre-military training academy in the Gush Katif settlement of Atzmona. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Mar 8, 2002 - St.-Sgt. Edward Korol, 20, of Ashdod, was killed by a Palestinian sniper in Tulkarem.
Mar 9, 2002 - Avia Malka, 9 months, of South Africa, and Israel Yihye, 27, of Bnei Brak were killed and about 50 people were injured, several seriously, when two Palestinians opened fire and threw grenades at cars and pedestrians in the coastal city of Netanya on Saturday evening, close to the city's boardwalk and hotels. The terrorists were killed by Israeli border police. The Fatah Al Aqsa Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.
Mar 9, 2002 - Limor Ben-Shoham, 27, of Jerusalem; Nir Borochov, 22, of Givat Ze'ev; Danit Dagan, 25, of Tel-Aviv; Livnat Dvash, 28, of Jerusalem; Tali Eliyahu, 26, of Jerusalem; Uri Felix, 25, of Givat Ze'ev; Dan Imani, 23, of Jerusalem; Natanel Kochavi, 31, of Kiryat Ata; Baruch Lerner, 29, of Eli; Orit Ozerov, 28, of Jerusalem; Avraham Haim Rahamim, 28, of Jerusalem were killed and 54 injured, 10 of them seriously, when a suicide bomber exploded at 22:30 PM Saturday night in a crowded cafe at the corner of Aza and Ben-Maimon streets in the Rehavia neighborhood in the center of Jerusalem. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Mar 10, 2002 - St.-Sgt. Kobi Eichelboim, 21, of Givatayim died Sunday afternoon from wounds suffered in the morning when a Palestinian gunman disguised as a worker opened fire at the entrance to Netzarim in the Gaza Strip.
Mar 12, 2002 - Eyal Lieberman, 42, of Tzoran was killed and another person was wounded in a shooting attack at the Kiryat Sefer checkpoint, east of Modi'in.
Mar 12, 2002 - Yehudit Cohen, 33, of Shlomi; Ofer Kanarick, 44, of Moshav Betzet; Alexei Kotman, 29, of Kibbutz Beit Hashita; Lynne Livne, 49, and her daughter Atara, 15, of Kibbutz Hanita; and Lt. German Rozhkov, 25, of Kiryat Shmona were killed when two terrorists opened fire from an ambush on Israeli vehicles traveling between Shlomi and Kibbutz Metzuba near the northern border with Lebanon. Seven others were injured. Israeli forces killed the two gunmen, who were dressed in IDF uniforms, and carried out wide-scale searches for additional terrorists.
Mar 13, 2002 - Lt. Gil Badihi, 21, of Nataf died of injuries suffered Wednesday morning in Ramallah. He was shot in the head by a Palestinian gunman while inside his tank and evacuating infantry personnel.
Mar 14, 2002 - St.-Sgt. Matan Biderman, 21, of Carmiel, St.-Sgt. Ala Hubeishi, 21, of Julis, and Sgt. Rotem Shani, 19, of Hod Hasharon were killed and two soldiers were injured early Thursday morning when a tank escorting a civilian convoy drove over a land mine exploded on the Karni-Netzarim road in the Gaza Strip. Terrorists hiding in a nearby mosque detonated the remote-controlled explosive charge beneath the armored vehicle. The Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine and the Fatah's al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade both claimed responsibility.
Mar 17, 2002 - Noa Auerbach, 18, of Kfar Sava was killed and 16 people were injured when a terrorist opened fire on passersby in the center of Kfar Sava. The gunman was shot and killed by police.
Mar 19, 2002 - 1st Lt. Tal Zemach, 20, of Kibbutz Hulda, was killed and three soldiers were injured when Palestinian terrorists opened fire on them in the Jordan Valley. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Mar 20, 2002 - Sgt. Michael Altfiro, 19, of Pardes Hanna; St.-Sgt. Shimon Edri, 20, of Pardes Hanna; SWO Meir Fahima, 40, of Hadera; Cpl. Aharon Revivo, 19, of Afula; Alon Goldenberg, 28, of Tel Aviv; Mogus Mahento, 75, of Holon; and Bella Schneider, 53, of Hadera were killed and about 30 people were wounded, several seriously, in a suicide bombing of an Egged bus No. 823 traveling from Tel Aviv to Nazareth at the Musmus junction on Highway 65 (Wadi Ara) near Afula. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
Mar 21, 2002 - Gadi (34) and Tzipi (29) Shemesh, of Jerusalem and Yitzhak Cohen, 48, of Modi'in were killed and 86 people injured, 3 of them seriously, in a suicide bombing on King George Street in the center of Jerusalem. The terrorist detonated the bomb, packed with metal spikes and nails, in the center of a crowd of shoppers. The Fatah al-Aqsa Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.
Mar 24, 2002 - Esther Kleiman, 23, of Neve Tzuf, was killed in a shooting attack northwest of Ramallah, while traveling to work in a reinforced Egged bus.
Mar 24, 2002 - Avi Sabag, 24, of Otniel was killed in a terrorist shooting south of Hebron.
Mar 26, 2002 - Major Cengiz Soytunc of Turkey and Catherine Berruex of Switzerland, members of the TIPH observer force in Hebron, were killed in an ambush shooting by a Palestinian gunman near Halhul.
Mar 27, 2002 - 30 people were killed and 140 injured - 20 seriously - in a suicide bombing in the Park Hotel in the coastal city of Netanya, in the midst of the Passover holiday seder with 250 guests. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
The victims: Shula Abramovitch, 63, of Holon; David Anichovitch, 70, of Netanya; Sgt.-Maj. Avraham Beckerman, 25, of Ashdod; Shimon Ben-Aroya, 42, of Netanya; Andre Fried, 47, of Netanya; Idit Fried, 47, of Netanya; Miriam Gutenzgan, 82, Ramat Gan; Ami Hamami, 44, of Netanya; Perla Hermele, 79, of Sweden; Dvora Karim, 73, of Netanya; Michael Karim, 78, of Netanya; Yehudit Korman, 70, of Ramat Hasharon; Marianne Myriam Lehmann Zaoui, 77, of Netanya; Lola Levkovitch, 85, of Jerusalem; Furuk Na'imi, 62, of Netanya; Eliahu Nakash, 85, of Tel-Aviv; Irit Rashel, 45, of Moshav Herev La'et; Yulia Talmi, 87, of Tel-Aviv; St.-Sgt. Sivan Vider, 20, of Bekaot; Ernest Weiss, 79, of Petah Tikva; Eva Weiss, 75, of Petah Tikva; Meir (George) Yakobovitch, 76, of Holon.
Chanah Rogan, 92, of Netanya; Zee'v Vider, 50, of Moshav Bekaot; Alter Britvich, 88, and his wife Frieda, 86, of Netanya died of their injuries on April 2-3, 2002.
Sarah Levy-Hoffman, 89, of Tel-Aviv died of her injuries on April 7, 2002.
Anna Yakobovitch, 78, of Holon died of her injuries on April 11, 2002.
Eliezer Korman, 74, of Ramat Hasharon died of his wounds on May 5, 2002.
Clara Rosenberger, 77, of Jerusalem died of her wounds on June 25, 2003.
Mar 28, 2002 - Rachel and David Gavish, 50, their son Avraham Gavish, 20, and Rachel's father Yitzhak Kanner, 83, were killed when a terrorist infiltrated the community of Elon Moreh in Samaria, entered their home and opened fire on its inhabitants. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Mar 29, 2002 - Tuvia Wisner, 79, of Petah Tikva and Michael Orlansky, 70, of Tel-Aviv were killed Friday morning, when a Palestinian terrorist infiltrated the Neztarim settlement in the Gaza Strip.
Mar 29, 2002 - Lt. Boaz Pomerantz, 22, of Kiryat Shmona and St.-Sgt. Roman Shliapstein, 22, of Ma'ale Efraim were killed in the course of the IDF anti-terrorist action in Ramallah (Operation Defensive Shield).
Mar 29, 2002 - Rachel Levy, 17, and Haim Smadar, 55, the security guard, both of Jerusalem, were killed and 28 people were injured, two seriously, when a female suicide bomber blew herself up in the Kiryat Yovel supermarket in Jerusalem. The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.
Mar 30, 2002 - Border Policeman Sgt.-Maj. Constantine Danilov, 23, of Or Akiva was shot and killed in Baka al-Garbiyeh, during an exchange of fire with two Palestinians trying to cross into Israel to carry out a suicide attack. The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility.
Mar 31, 2002 - 15 people were killed and over 40 injured in a suicide bombing in Haifa, in the Matza restaurant of the gas station near the Grand Canyon shopping mall. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
The victims: Suheil Adawi, 32, of Turan; Dov Chernobroda, 67, of Haifa; Shimon Koren, 55; his sons Ran, 18, and Gal, 15, of Haifa; Moshe Levin, 52, of Haifa; Danielle Menchel, 22, of Haifa; Orly Ofir, 16, of Haifa; Aviel Ron, 54; his son Ofer, 18, and daughter Anat, 21, of Haifa; Ya'akov Shani, 53, of Haifa; Adi Shiran, 17, of Haifa; Daniel Carlos Wegman, 50, of Haifa.
Carlos Yerushalmi, 52, of Karkur, died on April 1 of wounds sustained in the attack.
Apr 1, 2002 - Sgt.-Maj. Ofir Roth, 22, of Gan Yoshiya, an IDF reserve soldier, was killed at a roadblock near Jerusalem's Har Homa neighborhood by a Palestinian sniper firing from Beit Sahur, near Bethlehem.
Apr 1, 2002 - Tomer Mordechai, 19, of Tel-Aviv, a policeman, was killed in Jerusalem, when a Palestinian suicide bomber driving toward the city center blew himself after being stopped at a roadblock. The Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.
Apr 3, 2002 - IDF reservist Maj. Moshe Gerstner, 29, of Rishon Lezion was killed in Jenin during anti-terrorist action (Operation Defensive Shield).
Apr 4, 2002 - Rachel Charhi, 36, of Bat-Yam, critically injured in a suicide bombing in a cafe on the corner of Allenby and Bialik streets in Tel-Aviv on March 30, died of her wounds. Some 30 others were injured in the attack. The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility.
Apr 4, 2002 - Border Police Supt. Patrick Pereg, 30, of Rosh Ha'ayin, head of operations in an undercover unit, was killed Thursday while attempting to arrest a wanted member of Fatah's al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade.
Apr 4, 2002 - Sgt.-Maj.(res.) Einan Sharabi, 32, of Rehovot; Lt. Nissim Ben-David, 22, of Ashdod; and St.-Sgt. Gad Ezra, 23, of Bat-Yam were killed during the IDF anti-terrorist action in Jenin (Operation Defensive Shield).
Apr 5, 2002 - Sgt. Marom Moshe Fisher, 19, of Moshav Avigdor; Sgt. Ro'i Tal, 21, of Ma'alot; and Sgt. Oded Kornfein, 20, of Kibbutz Ha'on - were killed in exchanges of fire between IDF troops and Palestinian gunmen in Jenin (Operation Defensive Shield).
Apr 6, 2002 - St.-Sgt. Nisan Avraham, 26, of Lod was killed and five other soldiers were lightly injured when two Palestinian gunmen opened fire and threw grenades at the entrance to Rafiah Yam in the Gaza Strip. The Palestinians, members of the Islamic Jihad, were killed.
Apr 8, 2002 - St.-Sgt. Matanya Robinson, 21, of Kibbutz Tirat Zvi, and Sgt. Shmuel Weiss, 19, of Kiryat Arba were killed in an ambush by Palestinian gunfire in the Jenin refugee camp (Operation Defensive Shield).
Apr 9, 2002 - 13 IDF soldiers were killed and 7 injured in the Jenin refugee camp by Palestinian terrorists. An IDF patrol by reserve soldiers was ambushed during operations in the refugee camp. Explosive devices were detonated against them, as well as gunfire directed against the soldiers from the rooftops of the surrounding buildings.
The soldiers killed: Maj.(res.) Oded Golomb, 22, of Kibbutz Nir David; Capt.(res.) Ya'akov Azoulai, 30, of Migdal Ha'emek; Lt.(res.) Dror Bar, 28, of Kibbutz Einat; Lt.(res.) Eyal Yoel, 28, of Kibbutz Ramat Rachel; 1st Sgt.(res.) Tiran Arazi, 33, of Hadera; 1st Sgt.(res.) Yoram Levy, 33, of Elad; 1st Sgt.(res.) Avner Yaskov, 34, of Be'er Sheva; Sgt. 1st Class (res.) Ronen Alshochat, 27, of Ramle; gt. 1st Class (res.) Eyal Eliyahu Azouri, 27, of Ramat Gan; Sgt. 1st Class (res.) Amit Busidan, 22, of Bat Yam; Sgt. 1st Class (res.) Menashe Hava, 23, of Kfar Sava; Sgt. 1st Class (res.) Shmuel Dani Mayzlish, 27, of Moshav Hemed; Sgt. 1st Class (res.) Eyal Zimmerman, 22, of Ra'anana.
Apr 9, 2002 - Maj. Assaf Assoulin, 30, of Tel Aviv was killed in an exchange of fire in Nablus.
Apr 9, 2002 - St.-Sgt. Gedaliah Mellick, 21, of Jerusalem was killed and 12 soldiers were wounded in Jenin when an explosive charge was thrown at a patrol.
Apr 10, 2002 - Avinoam Alfia, 26, of Kiryat Ata; Sgt.-Maj.(res.) Shlomi Ben Haim, 27, of Kiryat Yam; Sgt.-Maj.(res.) Nir Danieli, 24, of Kiryat Ata; Border Police Lance Cpl. Keren Franco, 18, of Kiryat Yam; Sgt.-Maj.(res.) Ze'ev Hanik, 24, of Karmiel; Border Police Lance Cpl. Noa Shlomo, 18, of Nahariya; Prison Warrant Officer Shimshon Stelkol, 33, of Kiryat Yam; and Sgt. Michael Weissman, 21, of Kiryat Yam were killed and 22 people injured in a suicide bombing on Egged bus #960, en route from Haifa to Jerusalem, which exploded near Kibbutz Yagur, east of Haifa. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
Apr 12, 2002 - Lt. Dotan Nahtomi, 22, of Kibbutz Tzuba, died of wounds sustained earlier in the week during IDF operations in Dura (Operation Defensive Shield).
Apr 12, 2002 - Border policeman St.-Sgt. David Smirnoff, 22, of Ashdod was killed when a Palestinian gunman opened fire near the Erez crossing, in the Gaza Strip, killing one and injuring another four Israelis. The terrorist killed one and injured three Palestinian workers in the same shooting spree. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
Apr 12, 2002 - Nissan Cohen, 57; Rivka Fink, 75; Suheila Hushi, 48; and Yelena Konrab, 43, all of Jerusalem; and Ling Chang Mai, 34, and Chai Siang Yang, 32, both foreign workers from China, were killed and 104 people were wounded when a woman suicide bomber detonated a powerful charge at a bus stop on Jaffa road at the entrance to Jerusalem's Mahane Yehuda open-air market. The Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.
Apr 20, 2002 - Border Policeman St.-Sgt. Uriel Bar-Maimon, 21 of Ashkelon was killed in an exchange of fire near the Erez industrial park in the northern Gaza Strip. Israeli forces pursued the Palestinian gunman and killed him. An explosive belt was found on his body. The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility.
Apr 22, 2002 - Sgt. Maj. Nir Krichman, 22 of Hadera, was killed in an exchange of gunfire, when IDF forces entered the village of Asira a-Shamaliya, north of Nablus, to arrest known Hamas terrorists.
Apr 27, 2002 - Danielle Shefi, 5; Arik Becker, 22; Katrina (Katya) Greenberg, 45; and Ya'acov Katz, 51, all of Adora, were killed when terrorists dressed in IDF uniforms and combat gear cut through the settlement's defensive perimeter fence and entered Adora, west of Hebron. Seven other people were injured, one seriously. The terrorists entered several homes, firing on people in their bedrooms. Both Hamas and the PFLP claimed responsibility for the attack.
May 3, 2002 - IDF officer Major Avihu Ya'akov, 24, of Kfar Hasidim, was killed and two other soldiers injured in Nablus in a raid against a terror cell that was planning a suicide attack in Israel.
May 7, 2002 - 15 people were killed and 55 wounded in a crowded game club in Rishon Lezion, southeast of Tel-Aviv, when a suicide bomber detonated a powerful charge in the 3rd floor club, causing part of the building to collapse. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
The victims: Esther Bablar, 54, of Bat Yam; Yitzhak Bablar, 57, of Bat Yam; Avi Bayaz, 26, of Nes Ziona; Regina Malka Boslan, 62, of Jaffa; Edna Cohen, 61, of Holon; Rafael Haim, 64, of Tel-Aviv; Pnina Hikri, 60, of Tel-Aviv; Nawa Hinawi, 51, of Tel-Aviv; Rahamim Kimchy, 58, of Rishon Lezion; Nir Lovatin, 31, of Rishon Lezion; Shoshana Magmari, 51, of Tel-Aviv; Dalia Masa, 56, of Nahalat Yehuda; Rassan Sharouk, 60, of Holon; Israel Shikar, 49, of Rishon Lezion; Anat Teremforush, 36, of Ashdod.
May 12, 2002 - Nisan Dolinger, 43, of Pe'at Sadeh in the southern Gaza Strip was shot and killed by a Palestinian laborer. The assailant was apprehended.
May 19, 2002 - Yosef Haviv, 70, Victor Tatrinov, 63, and Arkady Vieselman, 40, all of Netanya, were killed and 59 people were injured - 10 seriously - when a suicide bomber, disguised as a soldier, blew himself up in the market in Netanya. Both Hamas and the PFLP took responsibility for the attack.
May 22, 2002 - Elmar Dezhabrielov, 16, and Gary Tauzniaski, 65, both of Rishon Lezion, were killed and about 40 people were wounded when a suicide bomber detonated himself in the Rothschild Street downtown pedestrian mall of Rishon Lezion.
May 24, 2002 - Reserve IDF Sgt. 1st Class Oren Tzelnik, 23, of Bat Yam was killed and two soldiers wounded when terrorists opened fire on their APC during a counter-terrorist operation in Tulkarm.
May 27, 2002 - Ruth Peled, 56, of Herzliya and her infant granddaughter Sinai Keinan, aged 14 months, of Petah Tikva were killed and 37 people were injured, some seriously, when a suicide bomber detonated himself near an ice cream parlor outside a shopping mall in Petah Tikva. The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.
May 28, 2002 - Albert Maloul, 50, of Jerusalem, was killed when shots were fired at the car in which he was traveling south on the Ramallah bypass road. Maloul and his cousin, who was lightly injured, were returning home to Jerusalem from Eli, where they operate the swimming pool. The Fatah Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.
May 28, 2002 - Netanel Riachi, 17, of Kochav Ya'akov; Gilad Stiglitz, 14, of Yakir; and Avraham Siton, 17, of Shilo - three yeshiva high school students - were killed and two others wounded in Itamar, southeast of Nablus, when a Palestinian gunman infiltrated the community and opened fire on the teenagers playing basketball, before he was shot dead by a security guard. The Fatah Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.
June 5, 2002 - 17 people were killed and 38 injured when a car packed with a large quantity of explosives struck Egged bus No. 830 traveling from Tel-Aviv to Tiberias at the Megiddo junction near Afula. The bus, which burst into flames, was completely destroyed. The terrorist, who drove the car bomb, was killed in the blast. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
The victims: Cpl. Liron Avitan, 19, of Hadera; Cpl. Avraham Barzilai, 19, of Netanya; Cpl. Dennis Blumin, 20, of Hadera; St.-Sgt. Eliran Buskila, 21, of Hadera; St.-Sgt. Zvi Gelberd, 20 of Hadera; Sgt. Violetta Hizgayev, 20, of Hadera; St.-Sgt. Ganadi Issakov, 21, of Hadera; Sgt. Sariel Katz, 21, of Netanya; Cpl. Vladimir Morari, 19, of Hadera; Sgt. Yigal Nedipur, 21, of Netanya; Sgt. Dotan Reisel, 22, of Hadera; St.-Sgt. David Stanislavksy, 23, of Netanya; Sgt. Sivan Wiener, 19, of Holon; Zion Agmon, 50, of Hadera; Adi Dahan, 17, of Afula; Shimon Timsit, 35, of Tel-Aviv.
* The 17th victim, Eliyahu Timsit, 32, of Sderot, was identified
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There's more of course, but I think you get the idea.
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Thank God for Wikipedia and hyperlinking. The Guardian Council is appointed by the Supreme Leader and the other half by the Supreme Leader's nominee. Six clerics and six judges. These folks are NOT living in some kind of Jeffersonian democracy.
What's with this sudden fetish regarding legitimacy based on the choice of the people? I'll bet whatever controls were imposed over Ahmadinejad's election, they weren't anywhere near as tight as those relating to Hosni Mubarak, the King of Jordan, the Emir of Kuwait or the rulers of Saudi Arabia and nobody is questioning their legitimacy.
Is it a fetish?
I think that the origional question was about Achmednejaad's treatment in the US and the respect or lack therof he was getting.
If he is just some clown who is a mere mouthpeice for a party that holds power over the people by force then gathering up respect for him is gonna be hard.
If he is the chosen representative of the Nation then he is certainly due respect as much as his nation is , and his nation ought to be offended at disrespect twards him as he is representative of them all. This does not depend at all on how wise or foolish he is or how much or little we agree with him , we are not obliged to agree with those we respect nor should our disagreement be tainted with disrespect .
Improper disrespect weakens our disagreement .
There is another aspect to respect to consider , someone who can hurt you is due some respect , the same way rattlesnakes get respect , or Kim Ill Jong. Even if there is absolutely no wisdom , no legitamacy , no agreement on what is right and wrong , there is that certain respect that could be called wariness. The North Koreans have this respect for us and we have it for them , but do we and Iran have to be so base with one another?
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>>Please tell me you are not equating Rachel Corrie who was in an IDF designated security zone by choice, an area the
IDF had designated a security zone for operations designed to uncover a network of smuggling tunnels, to a young girl
sitting on a civilian commuter bus that was blown to smithereens by a group intentionally targeting civilians for death?<<
You know if JS knew anything about this, other than what he's read about on liberal hate sites, he'd know Ms. Corrie was asking for it.
But she might have been suprised when she got it , a higher standard for "our " side than "their " side is not innapropriate.
I wonder why it is that the Isrelis do not kidnap a few thousand Palestinian grandmothers and make them ride the busses and sit in the schools?
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<< If he is just some clown who is a mere mouthpeice for a party that holds power over the people by force then gathering up respect for him is gonna be hard.>>
Aren't you forgetting that he was Columbia's invited guest? Hospitality towards a guest is one of the most attractive and endearing aspects of Arab culture, probably Persian as well, but in any event every Arab who witnessed the spectacle and probably every Persian as well, would have been outraged at the flagrant breach of etiquette towards a guest by a host, confirming their opinion of Americans (even University presidents!) as nothing but a bunch of ignorant barbarians.
And despite your rationalizations about respect or lack thereof for persons holding power by force over their people, to demonstrate how absolutely ludicrous they are, you have just to ask yourself whether such a shocking lack of respect would ever have been shown by an American university president to an invited guest such as the Emir of Kuwait, the King of Saudi Arabia, the President of Egypt or the King of Jordan.
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<<Now, compare JS's concern for poor little Corrie, to the Israelis killed by people like her:
<<List of victims by date:
<<Sept 27, 2000 - Sgt. David Biri, 19, of Jerusalem, was fatally wounded in a bombing near Netzarim in the Gaza Strip.
<<Sept 29, 2000 - Border Police Supt. Yosef Tabeja, 27, of Ramle was shot to death by his Palestinian counterpart on a joint patrol near Kalkilya. . . . [Long list follows]
...
There are a couple of problems with Rich's post.
First, I guess, the problem of Israelis killed by people like her [Rachael Corrie.]
The problem being, Rachael Corrie was not a killer. Not a "terrorist." Not a suicide bomber. Just an idealistic American college girl who went to the West Bank to see for herself the realities of the conflict, rather than absorbing them through the filters of American MSM. And in peacefully protesting the illegal actions of the Israeli occupation authorities, demolishing homes in retaliation for a family member's participating in their people's liberation struggle, Rachael Corrie, at the age of 19 or 20, was deliberately crushed to death by an Israeli bulldozer operator in the occupied West Bank. The killer was never been prosecuted.
The second problem of course is the fact that Rich doesn't bother to publish the list of Palestinians killed by Jews in the same struggle. There are of course many, many, many more Palestinians killed by the Israeli occupation forces than there are Israelis killed by the Palestinian Resistance forces. And interestingly enough, the MSM systematically underreports the Palestinian victims of Israeli violence and terror by very wide margins.
The organization If Americans Knew (http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/net-report.html) has conducted detailed studies of the degree to which American MSM consistently underreport Palestinian casualties, and I refer you to their website for the full study and methodology. Here follows just one of their tables, dealing with the year 2004, children's deaths only. (as an example.) Unfortunately, the grid lines in the table don't come through too well in this format, but it should be possible to get an idea of the problem by imagining grid lines separating the numbers.
Figures for Israelis are to the left of figures for Palestinians. In the first entry, you can see that the total number of Israeli children killed was 8, and of Palestinian children, 179. ABC (for the year 2004) reported all eight of the Israeli children killed, but only reported 20 of the Palestinian children killed. As percentages (next line) ABC reported 100% of all Israeli children killed, but only 11.2% of Palestinian children. The last entry for ABC compares the percentage of reported Israeli children's deaths (100%) with the percentage of reported Palestinian children's deaths (11.2%) and the ratio is 9.0 to 1, in the Israelis' favour. Similar analyses then follow for CBS and NBC. Sorry I could not get the gridlines to reproduce.
Israeli Palestinian
Actual Number of Children?s Deaths 8 179
ABC
Children?s Deaths Reported 8 20
Percentage of Children?s Deaths Reported 100.0% 11.2%
Ratio (Israeli % : Palestinian %) 9.0 : 1
CBS
Children?s Deaths Reported 4 7
Percentage of Children?s Deaths Reported 50.0% 3.9%
Ratio (Israeli % : Palestinian %) 12.8 : 1
NBC
Children?s Deaths Reported 8 18
Percentage of Children?s Deaths Reported 100.0% 10.1%
Ratio (Israeli % : Palestinian %) 9.9 : 1
This is how Rich and other maudlin, tear-jerking sob sisters get the "poor victimized Israel" message out - - by taking advantage of the near-total invisibility of Palestinians (and their suffering) in the U.S. mass media, Rich and other Zionist propagandists can focus on the pain, real enough, of the Israeli side and completely ignore the pain of the other side, which, thanks to the MSM, is largely not seen by the American sheeple.
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<< If he is just some clown who is a mere mouthpeice for a party that holds power over the people by force then gathering up respect for him is gonna be hard.>>
Aren't you forgetting that he was Columbia's invited guest? Hospitality towards a guest is one of the most attractive and endearing aspects of Arab culture, probably Persian as well, but in any event every Arab who witnessed the spectacle and probably every Persian as well, would have been outraged at the flagrant breach of etiquette towards a guest by a host, confirming their opinion of Americans (even University presidents!) as nothing but a bunch of ignorant barbarians.
And despite your rationalizations about respect or lack thereof for persons holding power by force over their people, to demonstrate how absolutely ludicrous they are, you have just to ask yourself whether such a shocking lack of respect would ever have been shown by an American university president to an invited guest such as the Emir of Kuwait, the King of Saudi Arabia, the President of Egypt or the King of Jordan.
That does troubble me.
The nearest thing I can recall to this is the "Kitchen Debate " between Nixon and Kruchev , an even that was not this bad.
Perhaps the reception that vice president Nixon got in South America is something like equivelent .
This sort of disrespectfull flag burning croud seems more like what one would expect in the more backwards corners of the world , not the academic bastions of the Ivy League.
You have a good point ,the University had no business inviteing a speaker that they could not be polite twards.
Was Adolf Hitler ever invited to speak by an important and respectable institution?
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>>The problem being, Rachael Corrie was not a killer. Not a "terrorist." Not a suicide bomber.<<
I would compare her to you Mike, but she actually had the balls to back up her hate with action. There you are correct. She was an enambler like you however, and in that snese she was just as guilty as those doing the killing. Just like you.
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<<I would compare her to you Mike, but she actually had the balls to back up her hate with action. There you are correct. She was an enambler like you however, and in that snese she was just as guilty as those doing the killing. Just like you.>>
So in that sense, who's the enabler of the Israelis, who kill ten times as many civilians, or the Americans, who kill a hundred times as many?
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<<Was Adolf Hitler ever invited to speak by an important and respectable institution?>>
Outside of Germany or Austria? I wouldn't think so. He might have addressed some Italian institutions before they threw out Mussolini and joined the Allies. I don't think he traveled to the Allied countries before the war. And the Eastern Europeans were all untermenschen, so he would not have deigned to address them other than as an occupier and conqueror.
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You'll have to prove that Mike.
Good luck.
Let me add that anything you say regarding "Palestinian" casualties will be treated as propaganda. There are no reliable sources when it comes to terrorists.
Let me just point out that Israel NEVER targets civilians. That's ALL the terrorists target in Israel.
As for any real civilans killed by the Israelis, they are either victims of their own people who hide behind them, or they are conspirators, therefore are not civilians.
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<<You'll have to prove that Mike. Good luck>>
I won't, actually. I've never seen a source anywhere, even in the U.S. MSM, which is the most pro-Israel biased one-sided reporting I've ever seen on the issue (and I look at the British and French papers from time to time) that did not put the Palestinian casualties at least three times higher than Israeli casualties. I don't need good luck. If you want to prove otherwise, YOU need a source.
<<Let me add that anything you say regarding "Palestinian" casualties will be treated as propaganda. There are no reliable sources when it comes to terrorists.>>
Ha, that's rich. (No pun intended) Everything you say is pure Zionist bullshit propaganda right out of AIPAC and it's ludicrous.
<<Let me just point out that Israel NEVER targets civilians. >>
No? Not only did they target the 12-year-old Mohammad al Dura, they even targeted the ambulance drivers and paramedics who tried to save his life. And it's all on video too. Most of the thousands of civilians killed were either targeted or were innocent bystanders next to Resistance fighters who were targeted with rockets.
<<That's ALL the terrorists target in Israel.>>
That's not all they target, they've hit military targets many times. Since the settlers are heavily armed, illegally occupying Palestinian land in contravention of international law and specific UN resolutions, they too are legitimate targets of the Resistance fighters.
As for Israeli civilians in Israel, they are citizens of a state which illegally bombs and shells civilian targets virtually at will and unrestricted. So they too are legitimate targets of the Resistance.
You need to recognize that Israel is at war with the people whose land iand lives t is stealing and that war is rough. You gotta stop whining about the tactics of one side while whitewashing the tactics of the other. War is hell. Rachael Corrie was a REAL innocent, and an American citizen, who came to tell the world the story of the oppression of the Palestinians and was murdered in cold blood for her pains. Her killer got off scot-free. It's ludicrous for you to whine endlessly about Shiri Negari and at the same time vilify and condemn Rachael Corrie, equally a victim of the same war.
As for any real civilans killed by the Israelis, they are either victims of their own people who hide behind them, or they are conspirators, therefore are not civilians.
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>> ... YOU need a source.<<
I see. I have to prove YOUR assertions now.
Not likely.
>>No? Not only did they target the 12-year-old Mohammad al Dura, they even targeted the ambulance drivers and paramedics who tried to save his life. And it's all on video too.<<
Thank you for mentioning this. It has been proven to be a lie over and over again, yet here you are parroting the terrorists lies. http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200306/fallows (http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200306/fallows)
You're nothing but a fool. A dupe. A useful idiot.
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Let me just point out that Israel NEVER targets civilians. That's ALL the terrorists target in Israel.
You're right, Rich. In the American news that you watch, Israel NEVER targets civilians. However, if you set foot outside of this country and watched the news elsewhere, you could watch the civilian targeting in all of its bloody detail.
Tell you what. I'll be heading back to Jordan for a vacation in November, and then going back to live there early next year. I'll send you recordings.
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<<I see. I have to prove YOUR assertions now.>>
No, you got that wrong, Rich. I'm satisfied with the truth of my assertions - - that many more Palestinian civilians were killed by Israelis than Israeli civilians were killed by Palestinians. It's all over the web, and if you don't believe that, well God bless you, my good man, you can believe whatever the fuck you like. What do I care what one fucking ignoramus believes or doesn't believe? There probably isn't another member of this group (apart from sirs, maybe) who thinks that the Israeli death toll is higher than the Palestinian death toll, but hey it's a free country and if you want to believe the moon is made of green cheese, I will not waste my breath arguing with you.
OTOH, if you want to prove YOUR assertions, I will listen attentively and courteously while you attempt to do so. Knowing all along what a waste of my time it will be to listen to such ludicrous twaddle, assuming in fact that you are able to find any of it. As a note of caution, I can tell you that I have done a quick google surf for Palestinian and Israeli casualty figures and everything I found supports my view and rejects yours. But please don't let that intimidate you - - look as long as you want to and if you find anything different, please be sure to let us know.
---
<<Thank you for mentioning this [the televised murder of 12-year-old Mohammed al Dura, shot to death in his father's arms by Israeli forces in Gaza.] It has been proven to be a lie over and over again, yet here you are parroting the terrorists lies. <<http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200306/fallows>>
Your link was a little behind the times. It "forgot" to mention that these same allegations were brought up last year in a French court, when France-2 and its cameraman sued for libel when some agent of the bullshit Zionist propaganda mill claimed they had staged the shooting. They won their case, too. Funny how your article just happened to "forget" that little glitch in the Great Mohammed al Dura Fake Atrocity Conspiracy case. Hilarious how you right-wing fruit-bats distrust all conspiracy theories except those which are aimed against the U.S. and Israel - - which you adopt instantly, no questions asked.
I read through the article you linked to, and it has several little problems. One being that not only did the Jews kill little Mohammed al Dura, they also shot up the ambulance that came to rescue him and killed its driver. So all this fucking bullshit about the angle of the bullets and piercing the concrete barrel or not and the bullet marks in the wall being round or elliptical is kind of beside the point, isn't it? If the Jews didn't shoot little Mohammed al Dura, why did they shoot the ambulance and its driver? Or was that ALSO the work of the conspirators?
The basic premise of the article was, The Jews are here, they can't shoot over the barrel and they didn't shoot through the barrel. This of course ignores the fact that the Jews destroyed or "lost" the original barrel, had several years to manufacture one or more new barrels for the so-called tests and have never permitted independent line-of-fire tests or even sightings from the original buildings, which they later destroyed. It also ignores the possibility that all the Jews were NOT in the outpost on the corner, but could have been circulating in plain clothes or otherwise in the immediate area, as is more common than not in riot control situations.
Well, suffice to say, the Israelis first admitted they shot the kid, then destroyed most of the original evidence, never impounded the body to remove the bullets as evidence (which they had every right to do in the course of investigating an alleged crime) and years later concoct a cock-and-bull story in the absence of most of the original evidence and having had plenty of time to build any new evidence they needed to order.
<<You're nothing but a fool. A dupe. A useful idiot.>>
Boy I sure hope you were looking in the mirror when you wrote that. The only fool, dupe, useful idiot (in your case, maybe useless idiot would have been more appropriate) in this discussion is you, Rich. You were taken in by this crude, asinine piece of Zionist BS, which wouldn't have fooled a middling-bright high school student. No surprises there, though.
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There's no sense responding to Rich on this at all.
Israel quite clearly does target civilians. Unless you consider dairy farms and apartment buildings, bombed on purpose, to be significant military threats. In fact, they do it quite often.
Of course no one should die in the manner of being bombed, either by the Israelis or Hamas or Hezbollah.
Yet, Rachel Corie was not killed by a bomb. She was literally run over by an armored bulldozer operated by the IDF. It was literally destroying an entire neighborhood of Palestinian homes. Rachel never harmed anyone. She never hurt an Israeli. She never set off any bombs or missiles. She never smuggled any weapons.
She was guilty of the same offense as African-American protesters in Selma, Alabama; Irish-Catholic protesters at the Bogside; and South African blacks at Soweto. She hurt no one and paid for it with her life.
The response was the same as the protesters who died above. The nastiest of the reactionaries said things like "she deserved it."
In fact here are some samples after she was crushed under the IDF bulldozer. These were written to a newspaper in Seattle.
Typical left-wing garbage!
Corrie was a na?ve little 'blame America' leftie."
"You don't stand in front of a bulldozer to stop it, unless you want to die."
Hmmm. Now consider the Chinese man who was always hailed as a hero for standing in front of a tank? What the Chinese tank driver could not do, the IDF bulldozer driver was more than willing to do.
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>>Nah. I just thought some self-described Christians could act like it sometimes.<<
Unlike you, I don't pretend to be something I'm not Oh holy one.
::)
Here's the other cheek Rich.
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>>You're right, Rich. In the American news that you watch, Israel NEVER targets civilians. However, if you set foot outside of this country and watched the news elsewhere, you could watch the civilian targeting in all of its bloody detail.<<
Israel never targets civilians.
You're both lier's. Period.
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Rachel Corrie
In the wake of a fatal bulldozer incident, irresponsible photo captions and disparate editorial cartoons.
The circumstances of American college student Rachel Corrie's March 16 death beneath an IDF bulldozer in Gaza remain unclear. The key unanswered question: Was Corrie visible and/or audible to the IDF driver just before the accident?
The consumer public got a huge dose of misleading information when Associated Press distributed a photo showing Corrie, standing in (apparently) direct view of the bulldozer driver, dressed in orange and speaking into a megaphone in the direction of the oncoming vehicle.
The AP caption reads: "Rachel was run over Sunday by the bulldozer that she was trying to stop from tearing down a building in the Rafah refugee camp, witnesses said."
See the AP photo at:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/030316/168/3j4y0.html
The problem with the AP photo caption is that readers are led to believe that this photo depicts the very scene and moment of the accident. The implication is criminal recklessness on the part of the IDF driver.
In fact, however, this photo was NOT taken in the moments before Corrie's death. Joseph Smith, of the pro-Palestinian International Solidarity Movement, was the photographer and wrote a chronological account of the incident (published on pro-Palestinian websites).
Smith says that the photo of Corrie "standing with megaphone" is ascribed to the time period 2pm-4pm. In addition, during this period, Smith notes that the bulldozer "always stopped in time to avoid injuring them."
At the time of Corrie's death (5pm), Smith describes Corrie as "sitting, with arms waving" (no megaphone), and another colleague holding the megaphone from a distance.
Additionally, one key point that Smith does not mention is that the bulldozers shown in the two photos are different types. The later photo is a bulldozer with much smaller windows, and hence reduced visibility.
Read Smith's account at:
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1284.shtml
Thus, the AP photo and caption fails to note the two most essential factors in determining visibility or lack thereof: 1) Corrie was no longer standing, but had changed to a sitting position, and 2) she was no longer in possession of attention-grabbing megaphone.
When publishing such a photo, AP is obligated to explain details of chronology; in the absence of any information, readers presume that since the bulldozer appears 8-10 feet away from Corrie, the photographer must have snapped the picture moments before the bulldozer hit her.
This photo was published by many of the 15,000 media outlets that AP services. And though the accompanying articles may provide clarifying information, a picture is worth a thousand words. In this case, by not providing a caption that clearly counterbalances the easy "misread," AP has misrepresented Corrie's death and contributed to a worldwide slander of the IDF.
* * *
An example of how the Corrie photo was misused appears in the CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR, which ran this photo caption:
"Death of a protester: Rachel Corrie, wearing a reflective Day-Glo jacket, shouts through a bullhorn at an oncoming Israeli army bulldozer in southern Gaza Sunday moments before it ran her over."
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0318/p06s01-wome.html
"Moments before"?!
Update: below is the text of a clarification from the Christian Science Monitor (April 2):
A number of letter writers have complained that in the March 18 issue the caption of Associated Press photo of American Rachel Corrie was incorrect. The photo was not taken "moments before" she was run over by an Israeli bulldozer, but at least 45 minutes before her death, says Joe Smith, the photographer...
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0402/p06s01-wogn.html
Unfortunately, the photo caption remains uncorrected online at:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0318/p06s01-wome.html
* * *
Meanwhile, CNN.com juxtaposed a pair of "before and after" photos, which implied a particularly ambiguous sense of chronology. But when HonestReporting.com provided additional information, CNN issued a "Caption Clarification." See it at:
http://cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/16/rafah.death/index.html
HonestReporting encourages members to monitor your local media to see if they used the misleading photos, as well as what information was provided in the photo caption and/or article itself to counterbalance any misconceptions.
Indeed, The New York Times issued the following correction:
"A picture caption on March 17 with an article about an American protester who was crushed by an Israeli Army bulldozer in Gaza referred incorrectly to the bulldozer shown. It was one that the protester, Rachel Corrie, had earlier tried to stop from destroying a Palestinian home. It was not the one that killed her."
http://nytimes.com/2003/03/26/pageoneplus/corrections.html
---- DANZIGER CARTOON ----
In the wake of this media misstep, nationally syndicated political cartoonist Jeff Danzinger issued a cartoon worthy of appearance in the most entrenched anti-Semitic Mideast rags. Danziger depicts Prime Minister Sharon as a satanic bulldozer driver, burying his critics under a mound of dirt.
See the cartoon at:
http://www.danzigercartoons.com/cmp/2003/danziger1600.html
Danzinger's presentation of Sharon as a murderer of political opposition is particularly troubling in light of the fact that Sharon's is the only truly democratic government in the Mideast, allowing -- even encouraging -- full and vocal opposition. And this at a time when America is sacrificing its soldiers in order to promote democracy in the region.
Danziger's cartoons are distributed by the Chicago Tribune Media Syndicate, whose media relations director can be contacted at:
kbremer@tribune.com
Danziger himself may be reached at:
jeff@danzigercartoons.com
---- GHANDI AND KING? ----
Meanwhile, the Toledo (Ohio) Blade published an editorial that compares Corrie with none less than Mahatma Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr.
Did Corrie truly continue the legacy of Ghandi and King?
As noted in the previous HonestReporting communique, Corrie was photographed last month burning an American flag in Gaza before young schoolchildren (http://honestreporting.com/graphics/articles/corrie.jpg). One wonders if the two true giants of human rights struggle would be flattered by the comparison with the woman who appears in these photos.
Read the Toledo Blade editorial at:
http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2003103190095
Comments to the Managing Editor, Kurt Franck:
kfranck@theblade.com
---- CAMPUS DOUBLE STANDARD ----
A University of Maryland student newspaper has caused a stir by publishing an editorial cartoon that depicts Corrie's actions as the definition of stupidity for protecting a "gang of terrorists."
See the cartoon at:
http://www.inform.umd.edu/News/Diamondback/archives/2003/03/18/cartoon.html
In response, Univ. of Maryland students staged an overnight sit-in protest, the academic administration said the cartoon "embarrassed the university" (see: http://www.inform.umd.edu/News/Diamondback/archives/2003/03/21/news3.html), and Maryland's U.S. Congressman Albert Wynn publicly expressed his criticism.
Without addressing the question of the editorial prudence of publishing the cartoon, we ask: If the players in the event were reversed, and a deceased Israeli were presented as "stupid," would the cartoon have elicited such protests of outrage from campus, administrative, and public officials? We highly doubt it.
Protest this double standard by writing to Univ. of Maryland President Dan Mote: awylie@deans.umd.edu
One step further: Learn more about becoming a campus activist in support of Israel at: http://www.israelactivism.com
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>>There's no sense responding to Rich on this at all. <<
True, you need not reply. I'm not interested in your lies.
>>Israel quite clearly does target civilians. Unless you consider dairy farms and apartment buildings, bombed on purpose, to be significant military threats. In fact, they do it quite often.<<
Lies. The murderers JS so dearly loves hide amoung civilians, most of whom give aid and comfort to them. These people are not noncombatants. Israeli soldiers go to extrodinanry lengths to protect civilians. Lengths that get them killed. It's not their fault terorists have no problem using their children as human shields.
>>Of course no one should die in the manner of being bombed, either by the Israelis or Hamas or Hezbollah.<<
I seriously doubt you mind Israeli women and children being blown to bits on their way to school or the market. After all, they target "Palestinian" civilians.
>>Yet, Rachel Corie was not killed by a bomb. She was literally run over by an armored bulldozer operated by the IDF. It was literally destroying an entire neighborhood of Palestinian homes. Rachel never harmed anyone. She never hurt an Israeli. She never set off any bombs or missiles. She never smuggled any weapons.<<
A neighborhood which was a haven for terrorists who killed hundreds of Israeli civiilans.
Corrie was a member of the International Solidarity Movement. See below:
Origins of the International Solidarity Movement (ISM)
Founded by American citizens Huwaida Arraf and Adam Shapiro (her husband) and Canadian-Israeli Neta Golan, ISM's regimen involves Western activists going to Palestinian areas for orientation meetings with Palestinian organizers and to discuss upcoming protests and actions. George Rishmawi, who heads the Grassroots International Protection for Palestinians, helps coordinate and train ISM volunteers once they arrive.
Volunteers then engage in such tactics as obstructing the activities of the Israeli Army. Since August 2001, hundreds of ISM volunteers have made their way to Palestinian areas to support Palestinians by placing themselves in front of Israeli Army vehicles, removing concrete boundaries from roads, confronting Israeli troops, and in some cases, staying in the homes of suicide bombers.
The ISM received its first substantial media coverage in spring 2002, when volunteers slipped into Yasir Arafat's compound, bypassing the Israeli military that surrounded it. In May, ISM members executed their second major action when they entered the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem during a military standoff between Israeli and Palestinian forces.
ISM Ties to Violent Groups
Although the ISM claims to be a non-violent group, some of its volunteers recognize violence as a legitimate means of achieving Palestinian goals. In an article in the Palestinian Chronicle in 2002, ISM co-founders Adam Shapiro and Huwaida Arraf wrote: "We accept that Palestinians have a right to resist with arms, as they are an occupied people upon whom force and violence is being used." Palestinian resistance, they say, "must take on a variety of characteristics - both nonviolent and violent."
The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs has warned that ISM activity "at times" is "under the auspices of Palestinian terrorist organizations." For example:
Two British suicide bombers met with ISM members before blowing up a popular bar in Tel Aviv near the U.S. embassy in April 2003. The ISM claimed that the only contact it had with the suicide bombers "was a brief social encounter" at an ISM apartment in Rafah. However, five days before the Tel Aviv bombing, the bombers attended a memorial service in Rafah for ISM volunteer Rachel Corrie, an American college student crushed to death in 2003 while trying to block demolition of a Palestinian home in Gaza by an Israeli army bulldozer (the Israeli Army's investigation of the Corrie death concluded that the soldiers operating the bulldozer had no intention of harming her).
In March 2003, Israeli troops raided the ISM's West Bank offices in Jenin and captured a suspected member of the terrorist organization Islamic Jihad. The Israeli army identified Shadi Suqiyeh, who was hiding in the ISM office, as a senior member of Islamic Jihad who had planned a number of foiled attacks on Israelis. A statement released by the ISM soon after the incident explained that Suqiyeh was brought into the apartment by an ISM volunteer "concerned about his welfare" because "under Israeli military curfew, Palestinians spotted in the streets are shot on sight."
More ties to hard-line Palestinian groups were revealed three months later, when ISM issued a press release inviting activists to "join the ISM, the Palestinian National and Islamic Forces and the Apartheid Wall Defense Committee?to block construction of the apartheid wall" during the Freedom Summer 2003 campaign. The Palestinian National and Islamic Forces is a group made up of members of Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the hard-edged wing of Arafat's Fatah organization.
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>>She was guilty of the same offense as African-American protesters in Selma, Alabama; Irish-Catholic protesters at the Bogside; and South African blacks at Soweto. She hurt no one and paid for it with her life.<<
Disgusting. Corrie suppurt directly lead to more dead Israeli children. Only a liberal could compare support for terrorists to the Civil Rights of Blacks. Corrie was just another useful idiot to the terrorists cause (Much like you JS).
More on the Corrie lies:
Rachel Corrie, One Year Later
By Steven Plaut
FrontPageMagazine.com | 4/13/2004
The one-year anniversary of the demise of Rachel Corrie has not passed without fanfare. Rachel?s mother and others on the Left have observed the cosmic event by condemning alleged Israeli (and U.S.) intransigence in the investigation of the death. In the Boston Globe of March 18, 2004, Rachel Corrie's mother wrote:
Rachel was an unarmed peace activist trying to prevent the demolition of the home of a Palestinian pharmacist, his wife, and three children. She believed that nonviolent direct action against the Israeli occupation would make Palestinians, and also Israelis and Americans, more secure. Rachel stood there to protect a home and family in Gaza because the United States and Israel rejected a UN proposal to send international human rights monitors there. International activists went instead. Rachel stood there protesting illegal home demolitions that the United States opposes on the record yet fails to stop ? destruction that we support with billions in annual military aid to Israel for bulldozers, Apache helicopters, F-16s, and more.
She went on to demand that the United States run its own investigation into her daughter's death, and reject the conclusions from Israel's own official investigation, which concluded that Corrie had been struck accidentally by a bulldozer operator who was unable to see her, blaming Corrie herself for blocking the bulldozer in the middle of its operation. In other statements, the Corrie family has been far more bellicose, denouncing Israel for maintaining an ?illegal occupation of Palestinian lands.?
What are we to make of this new Corrie family jihad? For those whose memories fail them in this matter, let me refresh things. Rachel Corrie was a young fanatic college student from Washington State, who decided she could make the world a better place by showing her solidarity with Middle East terrorism and Palestinian mass murderers. She joined the International Solidarity Movement, a communist-anarchist group who openly support Palestinian terrorism. Corrie set up shop in the Gaza Strip, where she and her ISM comrades spent their days trying to harass and provoke Israeli troops and interfere with Israel's anti-terrorist military operations. They would set up obstacles on roads to prevent Israeli troops and otherwise assist and defend the terrorists. The ISM is probably the campus organization most upfront about its support for the Palestinian ?right? to engage in terrorism, and that is saying quite a lot these days!
In one confrontation with the Israelis, Corrie was trying to block an army bulldozer that was knocking down homes of terrorists and buildings hiding tunnels through which weapons and explosives were being smuggled into Israel. These tunnels brought weapons from Egypt to the Gaza city of Rafiah. One of these homes might have been that which Corrie's parents describe as that of an ?innocent pharmacist.? Corrie and her ISM comrades wanted to help protect the Gaza smuggling tunnels. Rachel Corrie put herself in a position where the bulldozer driver could not see her, and she was dragged under the heavy machine. She died in a PLO ambulance or hospital shortly thereafter. The ISM then issued a host of "eyewitness" reports about the accident, which turned out to be fabrications. The simple fact of the matter was that Corrie had figured the Israeli bulldozer driver could be cowed into backing off if he saw her blocking his access to the terrorist house; she probably figured correctly, except that he did not see her from his limited-visibility window in the rig.
Ever since, Rachel Corrie has become the matron martyr saint for the pro-terrorism Left, the Joan of Arc of Palestinian terrorism. Her ISM friends declared she was "murdered" intentionally by Israel (see for example http://www.rachelcorrie.org/ ). Her death has been exploited by the Bash-Israel movement and by anti-Semites all over the world, as a means to delegitimize Israel. The PLO adopted her as mascot, declaring that she died ?fighting Israel's security fence?; never mind that Israel did not begin building the security fence until well after she was dead.
Later other ISM activists were also injured when they put themselves in the middle of firefights, started when the PLO would fire on Israelis, and ? like Corrie ? they were injured and one other died trying to protect those terrorists from Israelis shooting back. In this other case of a death of ISM member Tom Hurndall, the ISM led a worldwide campaign to demonize the soldier who shot him. Ironically, it turned out the soldier who shot Hurndall was an Arab Bedouin patriot living in Israel and serving in the Israeli military.
Corrie's own parents have gone on their own revenge, touring the world to demonize Israel, and represent daughter Rachel as a "victim of Israel's illegal occupation." They and other ISM supporters have been organizing a boycott of the Caterpiller Corporation, because it sells machines to Israel, including the one with which Corrie chose to face down a year ago. The Corrie parents insist that Rachel was there to promote non-violence and brotherly love. But Rachel and her ISM friends of course believed in nothing of the sort and were doing nothing of the sort. The official ISM web site endorses "armed struggle" by Palestinians, which means random mass murders of Israeli children.
Corrie died as a result of her own stupidity. She was in Gaza to help promote Palestinian terrorism and to prevent Israel from protecting its own citizens. She died protecting the illegal tunnels into Gaza from Egypt, through which the suicide bombers obtained their materials. The most lasting images of Corrie was of her face contorted with rage and as she burned an American flag. When Reuters reported that Palestinians "honored" her after her death in a "symbolic funeral" by flying U.S. flags, James Taranto from the Wall Street Journal remarked that if Corrie were still alive, no doubt she'd have burned the flags. Even the far-Left Mother Jones magazine considers her a dangerous and deluded little twit. The Israeli army investigated the death and concluded that Corrie had effectively committed suicide. Taranto also suggested that Corrie be awarded the "Idiotarian of the Year Award" for playing chicken with a huge earth-mover.
The ISM is not simply an innocent, if evil, fringe debating society. Within Israeli territories, its members have actively collaborated with terrorists. They hid weapons and wanted terrorists in their offices. The local ISM offices hosted two Moslem suicide bombers from the UK, who had entered Israel as "peace activists," only to blow a Tel Aviv bar to smithereens the next day.
The ISM is so closely coordinated with the PLO that it is for all intents and purposes nothing more than a PLO front group (which means that Rachel Corrie in effect died as a member of the PLO). More recently, ISM trouble-makers have been trying to sabotage Israel's security fence, lest the fence prevent some Palestinian mass murderers from blowing up Israeli children and other civilians.
Yet despite the open endorsement of terror by ISM, it continues to enjoy U.S. tax-exempt status as a "charity" and continues to enjoy gifts of megabucks from the usual culprits who fund the pro-terrorist Left. The liberal press continues to coo over the ISM as if it were a "peace group."
The Israeli government has been too pusillanimous, cowed by its fear of bad press, to send the ISM trouble makers packing. While the ISM demonizes Israel, the very fact that it has been allowed to continue to operate its provocations within Israeli-controlled territory attests to how liberal and tolerant Israel is and has been. It is no coincidence that the same ISM people protecting homes of suicide bombers in the Gaza Strip and West Bank would never dare place themselves in jeopardy by blocking, say, U.S. troops arresting Saddam Hussein in his Tikrit rat-hole, or al-Qaeda facilities in Afghanistan. The Corrie parents are not urging other deluded young undergraduates to rush to Fallujah and Najaf to defend the homes of Iraqi terrorists under siege by American GIs to protest American "occupation" of Iraq. The ISM designer-jean "revolutionaries" and mall-Marxists would be mowed down mercilessly if they tried interfering with anti-terrorism operations anywhere in the world but Israel.
In the past year, Corrie and the other ISM supporters were lionized by the Western media. The Europeans and the American liberal newspapers continue to commemorate Rachel Corrie through attacking Israel every time it tries to deter terror by knocking down the home of a suicide bomber or by tearing down houses protecting smuggling tunnels or Gaza rocket production workshops (although more than 200 Palestinian rockets were fired into Israeli civilian areas from the Gaza Strip last year alone). And some of the most ferocious denunciations of Israel's actions against terrorist homes have come from Britain - from the BBC, the Economist, the New Statesman, and the British Foreign Office.
I mention the British in particular because a few days ago, the British government responded to the murders of two school children there by demolishing the house of the murderer. Yes, the British blew up the house of a mass murderer! The very same British media who denounce Israel as a "terrorist state" every time it blows up the home of a Palestinian suicide bomber have actually celebrated and justified an identical demolition, smack in the middle of the UK, no less!
You see, in the town of Soham, which is on the West Bank of the River Great Ouse in the eastern UK, one Ian Huntley had murdered two schoolgirl settlers. A few days ago, the local township demolished the property as a way to deter other would-be mass murderers and child-molesters. Initiators of the demolition felt the house was a painful reminder to all of a horrific crime, and so it should be erased from the face of the earth. Moreover, this came in the tracks of other properties of killers and murderers in the UK that were also demolished in a similar fashion.
Now where were the ISM pro-terrorists? Why were they not protecting the home of the murderer of the two girls as a gesture to prove their devotion to love and peace? How come the Bash-Israel urchins were not out marching down the avenue to protest this Soham war crime and genocide by the British authorities? Why weren't the Corrie parents denouncing Britain's illegal occupation of the Isle of Man and Jersey? Why did no one report this abuse of human rights to the World Court in the Hague, or urge the Belgians to indict Tony Blair for this crime?
Shortly after her death, columnist Dennis Prager wrote to Corrie's native Washingtonian parents: "So, Olympia, grieve for Rachel Corrie's parents, but spare us the hagiography. Rachel Corrie died fighting for . . . a Palestinian group dedicated, in its own words, to "armed struggle" against Israel. She ended up being a useful idiot for, and one more victim of, Palestinian terror." Nothing could sum things up better.
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Steven Plaut is a professor at the Graduate School of the Business Administration at the University of Haifa and is a columnist for the Jewish Press. A collection of his commentaries on the current events in Israel can be found on his "blog" at www.stevenplaut.blogspot.com.
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>>Israel quite clearly does target civilians. Unless you consider dairy farms and apartment buildings, bombed on purpose, to be significant military threats. In fact, they do it quite often.<<
Israeli soldiers go to extrodinanry lengths to protect civilians. Lengths that get them killed. It's not their fault terorists have no problem using their children as human shields.
Minus the obvious unjustified hyperbole aimed at Js, Rich does have a point here. Often what the MSM and propogandists would claim as "targeting civilians" is nearly always that of terrorists hiding amongst the civilian population, giving them a 2 fold advantage, better cover, and when they are targeted, a propaganda boondoggle of PR, in which to claim "see, the Israelis are targeting civilians".
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>>You're right, Rich. In the American news that you watch, Israel NEVER targets civilians. However, if you set foot outside of this country and watched the news elsewhere, you could watch the civilian targeting in all of its bloody detail.<<
Israel never targets civilians.
You're both lier's. Period.
And you're living in a fantasy world.
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You should be ashamed of yourself.
You've become a terrorist dupe. A fool. A useful idiot.
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>> Minus the obvious unjustified hyperbole aimed at Js ... <<
I'll refer you to Ann Coulter sirs. She said, "You dont want to be a member of their club. We are in a tooth-and-claw battle for our nation. This is no time to parse, nuance, or clarify words. Liberals dont rely on words. They judge us on a jurisprudence of epithets. Fight fire with fire. Just call them traitors and let them sort it out."
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You should be ashamed of yourself.
You've become a terrorist dupe. A fool. A useful idiot.
You are incapable of thinking for yourself. You parrot Front Page Magazine and Ann Coulter and call it the whole truth. I am only suggesting that you take a look around at the bigger picture.
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>>You are incapable of thinking for yourself. You parrot Front Page Magazine and Ann Coulter and call it the whole truth. I am only suggesting that you take a look around at the bigger picture.<<
Typical.
I have read hundreds of books, and thousands of articles on the history of the Middle East and terrorism in particular. I am better read than just about anyone in this place. It's clear you have drunk deeply of the Kool aide. You gave up thinking for yourself after the rice hit the pavement. You can't possible be anything other than a useful idiot and spew the kind of terrorist propaganda you do. I understand why you do it. But please, don't pretend to have access to a bigger picture when it's clear where your opinion comes from.
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>>Israel quite clearly does target civilians. Unless you consider dairy farms and apartment buildings, bombed on purpose, to be significant military threats. In fact, they do it quite often.<<
Israeli soldiers go to extrodinanry lengths to protect civilians. Lengths that get them killed. It's not their fault terorists have no problem using their children as human shields.
Minus the obvious unjustified hyperbole aimed at Js, Rich does have a point here. Often what the MSM and propogandists would claim as "targeting civilians" is nearly always that of terrorists hiding amongst the civilian population, giving them a 2 fold advantage, better cover, and when they are targeted, a propaganda boondoggle of PR, in which to claim "see, the Israelis are targeting civilians".
Not necessarily. In the study of military strategy throughout history and into the current era, the bombing of civilian population centers is a well accepted strategy - meant to maximize pressure on the people so that they will pressure the government.
Forget that we're talking about Israel here - it could be any country in the world. Put under this lense, it is entirely likely that civilians are deliberatly being targeted. In fact, if you were to study declassified documentation from any war, any country, you would find that this is, indeed, the case.
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White flags, not a legitimate target
Israel must take responsibility for the dreadful human toll in Lebanon, says Peter Bouckaert in Beirut
Peter Bouckaert
Monday July 31, 2006
Guardian Unlimited (http://www.guardian.co.uk/syria/story/0,,1834063,00.html)
Day after day, Israeli government spokesmen insist that everything they are doing accords with international humanitarian law. Endless communiqu?s insist that Israel's behaviour is "proportionate". Let us be blunt: those claims are fantasy, as the carnage in Qana has shown once again.
I have seen my share of modern wars, as a researcher at Human Rights Watch. In Kosovo, Afghanistan and Iraq, we found many civilian casualties due to bombing campaigns. Civilians fleeing attacks were hit by mistake. In Iraq, US bombs often hit civilian homes, hours after Saddam Hussein or members of his inner circle had left, missing their legitimate targets but killing civilians. In Lebanon it is a very different picture. Time after time, Israel strikes at civilian homes and civilian vehicles attempting to flee the besieged southern border zone, killing families without any military objective in sight.
In an extraordinary, and extraordinarily revealing comment, the Israeli Justice Minister, Haim Ramon, reportedly said, "All those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hizbullah." So if you take to the roads to flee, you are a terrorist - who else would travel the southern roads now? And, if you stay at home because the danger is so great, you are also a terrorist. For the innocent civilian, there is literally no way out.
Take the example of Manal, a 22-year-old housewife, who had just arrived in Beirut when I met her a few days ago. For nearly two weeks, Israeli warplanes struck Manal's border village of Aitaroun, obliterating homes and families. A Canadian-Lebanese family vacationing in the village was killed; the next day, another rocket destroyed a home 100 meters away from Manal's house, killing at least nine members of a family. So many were killed in her village that she finds it difficult to remember all the names.
When the Israelis dropped leaflets instructing all villages south of the Litani River to evacuate immediately "for your own safety," Manal and dozens of her neighbours set off in three cars, waving white flags. As they left, an Israeli warplane dropped bombs 10 meters in front of and behind the convoy, which raced on. As far too many Lebanese civilians have found, Manal's experience is not exceptional, on the contrary.
In another case, Israeli forces struck the home of a Shi'a cleric Sheikh Adil Mohammad Akash, who was reportedly affiliated with Hizbullah but without a direct military role. Even if the sheikh had been a fighter, the bomb killed him, his wife, their ten children, and the family's Sri Lankan maid. The ratio of twelve for one reveals Israel's disregard for civilian lives.
Although mistakes are made in the fog of fighting, the pattern of Israeli behavior in southern Lebanon suggests a deliberate policy. My notebook overflows with reports of civilian deaths, day after day.
Israel blames Hizbullah for the massive civilian toll in Lebanon, claiming that they are hiding the rockets they are firing at Israel, in civilian homes, and that they are fighting from within the civilian population. This is a convenient excuse. Human Rights Watch has consistently documented Hizbullah's war crimes, including deliberate and indiscriminate attacks on Israeli civilians, as well as the taking of hostages. But our investigations have not found evidence to support Israeli allegations that Hizbullah are intentionally endangering Lebanese civilians by systematically fighting from civilian positions. We can't exclude the possibility that it happens - but time and again villagers tell us that Hizbullah is fighting from the hills. Meanwhile, the homes hit by Israel have only civilians in them.
The current Israeli actions are not only wrong, but - short of compelling evidence to the contrary, which so far is nowhere to be found - also war crimes. Israel's leaders, and their friends elsewhere in the world, must face up to that truth.
? Peter Bouckaert is Emergencies Director at Human Rights Watch
Guardian Unlimited ? Guardian News and Media Limited 2007
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Minus the obvious unjustified hyperbole aimed at Js, Rich does have a point here. Often what the MSM and propogandists would claim as "targeting civilians" is nearly always that of terrorists hiding amongst the civilian population, giving them a 2 fold advantage, better cover, and when they are targeted, a propaganda boondoggle of PR, in which to claim "see, the Israelis are targeting civilians".
Not necessarily.
Quite, necessarily
In the study of military strategy throughout history and into the current era, the bombing of civilian population centers is a well accepted strategy - meant to maximize pressure on the people so that they will pressure the government.
AND MORE SO, to target terrorists that have been identified, but hiding amongst the civilian population. I'm not condoning the backwards thinking of trying to apply political pressure via bombing of the civilian populace. If THAT were the primary focus however, Israel would be carpet bombing blocks upon blocks of apartment buildings, churches, schools, to "maximize" pressure on the people. Point is, they don't. Point is, as Rich has referenced, they try hard to avoid innocent civilian casualties, vs the terrorists who take great pains in speficially targeting innocent civilians, be it buses, marketplaces, churches, even schools.
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Read the above Sirs.
I know that you and many Americans want to give the Israelis the benefit of the doubt. They are very much a western nation. I understand. I really do.
But it simply is not the case. They fight a very different style warfare than we do. They do not consider all life to be worthwhile. It is not the same. They fight a very Middle Eastern style warfare.
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An Interesting Article (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3370915,00.html) from an Israeli:
We also target civilians
Aims served by Israeli arms no loftier than those served by Palestinian pipe bombs
Idan Landau
The "al-Sanabel" television station in Nablus almost aired an exclusive report this week: An elite unit of the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades raided an Israel Military Industries plant in the coastal plain and uncovered sophisticated weapons labs. The arms that were confiscated include 300 air-to-surface missiles for helicopters, 20 tons of plastic explosives, one bullet-proof bulldozer, and six Merkava 4 tanks.
The report that was almost aired noted that this achieved strategic balance against the weapons labs uncovered in the raid on Nablus, where forces confiscated five pipe bombs, one LAW rocket, a large explosive device, and four bags of fertilizer used for bomb-making.
The report, as noted, was not aired. Not only because Israel Military Industries labs were not uncovered, but also because "al-Sanabel" was put out of action. The IDF detained the station manager and confiscated its broadcasting equipment. Why is the IDF assaulting journalists and media outlets? This is apparently an irrelevant question and an almost immoral one under the current climate.
Why did the IDF impose a siege on the government hospital in Nablus and prevent wounded Palestinians from being taken there? Why does the IDF take over a school and turn it into a Shin Bet interrogation center? What was the sin committed by Anan al-Tabibi, who was shot in the head by a sniper while in his own backyard? Again, illogical questions. We have a war, and in war there is no reason to be strict when it comes to respecting life of civilians.
The thing is, this is untrue. This is not a war, but rather, a unilateral invasion into a Palestinian town, and even in wars there are explicit bans on unnecessary harm to the civilian population. The IDF has not heard about it; the Palestinian population, including its assets and needs, are like thin air for the invading forces.
It is doubtful whether anyone in Israel was stunned by the uncovered weapons labs in Nablus. It is even more difficult to believe that anyone is shocked by the strategic threat faced by the State of Israel in light of the quantity and ridiculous quality of weapons that were confiscated.
In fact, what were we expecting? That Palestinians accept our aerial raids and tank shells with a bare chest and an olive branch? This is a violent conflict and each side makes sure to arm itself to the teeth.
The tank shells produced by Israel Military Industries do not serve loftier goals than those served by pipe bombs in Nablus. Both are used, maliciously and arbitrarily, against innocent civilians. The difference is merely in power: The immense damage caused to West Bank towns by Israel's military technology cannot be compared to the limited damage caused by Palestinian terrorism in Israel's cities.
Many Israelis cling to the over-used argument that "yes, but we don't mean to harm civilians, and they do." After 5,000 killed Palestinians (including about 1,000 minors,) 50,000 injured Palestinians, 30,000 razed homes, and 13 million (!) uprooted olive trees, this justification sounds like a bad joke and nothing but. It's better to remain silent in shame.
No dialogue with Arab world
We say that terrorism needs no excuses, only opportunities: It appears the IDF's periodic invasions into West Bank towns and the extensive destruction they leave in their wake do not need excuses. And still, it's difficult not to connect the current military activism to the diplomatic freeze we've seen, particularly in recent weeks.
Within an amazingly short period of time, the Olmert government managed to slam shut almost every possible door for dialogue with the Arab world. The Mecca Agreement on Palestinian national unity "did not deliver the good," officials in Jerusalem grumbled. With the Syrians we are not even allowed to make initial contacts, lest we irritate Big Brother Bush; even the release of abducted IDF soldier Gilad Shalit is not urgent enough for the government.
Diplomatic envoys are running around European capitals and in Cairo, US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice comes and goes, and everything is at a standstill.
Actually, some things are moving, the same things that are always moving ? the settlements. More than a 1,000 new residential units are being built, while a police headquarters was recently established in the E1 area slated to connect Maaleh Adumim to Jerusalem and detach once and for all the northern West Bank from its south; meanwhile, the fence continues to expand eastward.
This is unpleasant, so Olmert and Peretz sit there sweating and wondering: How do we get out of this mess? The international community is already starting to doubt Israel's willingness to reach a peace agreement. The Israeli public is bored, and is already fed up with the Zeilers and Winograds.
The Esterina Tartman spin barely lasted a day and a half. And suddenly, Army Chief Gabi Ashkenazi bursts in with a sparkle in his eyes: I have an idea! How about we invade Nablus? We'll blow up a few houses, come back with five pipe bombs, the world will see what kind of scum we are dealing with here, and the people of Israel will again be proud. Hmmm, says Olmert. Hmmm, Peretz agrees.
Idan Landau is a Linguistics lecturer at Ben Gurion University. He spent time in prison for refusing to serve in Gaza or the West Bank
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You should be ashamed of yourself.
You've become a terrorist dupe. A fool. A useful idiot.
You are incapable of thinking for yourself. You parrot Front Page Magazine and Ann Coulter and call it the whole truth. I am only suggesting that you take a look around at the bigger picture.
He's not worth it Henny.
He hasn't read "hundreds of books" or "thousands of articles." He has yet to demonstrate any grasp of any knowledge on the history of the Middle East in any relevant way.
He uses the language of the extreme right, which incidentally comprises Lenin's oft-repeated phrase "useful idiot" an expression that is used by those who have no debate beyond name calling and egregious displays of hatred.
This guy is not worth the time, nor effort of any serious discussion. I would even go on to say that Knute makes for a far better conversationalist.
A person so filled with hate and bile obviously has some personal problems that he comes here to take them out on others. All I can say is that it is better that he does it here than doing so to a real person. I don't know what he gets taught at church, but it is not Christianity and sure as hell is not love thy neighbor and love thy enemy.
Pure vitriolic hate. I genuinely feel sorry for you Rich. Are you divorced?
"Are you divorced?"
Totally uncalled for, socialist. It is this shit why my buddy, The Professor, quit this forum. I could call you a pussy fence sitter but I don't. As such, you shouldn't ask Rich this inflmmatory question. You disagree philiosophically, fine. To infer his marital status has anything to do wtih his debating style is pitiful. It is like me asking why your microscopic penis is even useful. Neither are relavant to the topic at hand.
Therefore, why not just agree to disagree and move on?
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You should be ashamed of yourself.
You've become a terrorist dupe. A fool. A useful idiot.
You are incapable of thinking for yourself. You parrot Front Page Magazine and Ann Coulter and call it the whole truth. I am only suggesting that you take a look around at the bigger picture.
He's not worth it Henny.
He hasn't read "hundreds of books" or "thousands of articles." He has yet to demonstrate any grasp of any knowledge on the history of the Middle East in any relevant way.
He uses the language of the extreme right, which incidentally comprises Lenin's oft-repeated phrase "useful idiot" an expression that is used by those who have no debate beyond name calling and egregious displays of hatred.
This guy is not worth the time, nor effort of any serious discussion. I would even go on to say that Knute makes for a far better conversationalist.
A person so filled with hate and bile obviously has some personal problems that he comes here to take them out on others. All I can say is that it is better that he does it here than doing so to a real person. I don't know what he gets taught at church, but it is not Christianity and sure as hell is not love thy neighbor and love thy enemy.
Pure vitriolic hate. I genuinely feel sorry for you Rich. Are you divorced?
"Are you divorced?"
Totally uncalled for, socialist. It is this shit why my buddy, The Professor, quit this forum. I could call you a pussy fence sitter but I don't. As such, you shouldn't ask Rich this inflmmatory question. You disagree philiosophically, fine. To infer his marital status has anything to do wtih his debating style is pitiful. It is like me asking why your microscopic penis is even useful. Neither are relavant to the topic at hand.
Therefore, why not just agree to disagree and move on?
I take it you haven't read Rich's comments to JS over the past few weeks. If you had, I am sure you would have chastised Rich the same way.
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Actually, he might be little inflammatory for me, but there are gems nonetheless to be found there.I have found some of what he says to be vlaid. I am inflammatory as well, but not as systemically.
Whatever, if JS can't take it, then he needn't respond to Rich. Just because Rich is infllamatory does not mean he doesn't bring some merit to the forum. That Navy swabbie, Plane, just last week or so posted a message about liking to see a wide range of diverse opinions. Okay, so you got it!
So, took upo for him in that earlier flap with the Professor, and now you do so again. If JS has balls, he can take up for himself. Or is this like singing in harmony?
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Well first of all Professor, you clearly have not left the forum.
Secondly, it probably was unfair on my part, but I was asking honestly - not just to stir the pot. Then again, it is none of my business.
If you all think I am being unfair, I'll delete my comments. That's fine and no skin off my teeth.
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Whatever. I was just pointing out the hypocrisy.
As far as being the Professor, I doubt you can browser fake cookies, but I could be mistaken. I am NOT a computer expert. BT could probably track my address or whatever to determine I am who I say I am, but then again, I really don't give a shit what you think anyway.
My point was two-pronged. First, you criticize Rich for being inflammatory and yet you are as well, and, second, that a wide range of views is what this forum is all about.
I have been here a few short weeks and I see a wide diversity of views. I happen to like that. If I wanted singular points of view, I would join another USMC forum.
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I haven't prevented Rich from expressing his views, so I don't understand where your diversity diatribe is coming from. He is free to say whatever he likes and as you've seen he takes full advantage of it.
You're free to say what you like as well.
I notice that in your view I am free to be attacked consistently, but if I respond, you suddenly feel the need to pounce.
I also find it interesting that you cherish a diversity of views, but then don't give a shit what another person thinks.
Hypocrisy indeed.
I tell you hat, I'll delete the offending post, since it clearly bothers you. I apologise.
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Well, I DO want to hear a diversty of views, whether I agree with them or not. I happen to agree with some of what Rich says, in fact, apparently a lot more than you and Henny do. I think, and I could be worng ,that you mistake his enthusiasm for inaccuracy. I find some accuracy in many of his postings.
Whether you delete it is up to you. I do not care either way.
See, here's the scoop: do you or do you not hold yourself to a standard that is different than Rich's? If so, then do not respond in kind. The old 7 x 70 rule might apply...
Now, to the charge:
It is apparent then to all parties here in this Forum that much injustice has been done in the Middle East. So then, what REALISTIC measures might be taken to reach accomodation? A joint U.S/U.N./Isreal, Syria/Jordan,etc conference to discuss matters at hand with "encouragmenrt" from the more indirect stakeholders (e.g. the U.S. pressuring Isreal ot reach accomodation and Syria the same with thier proxies and so on...)? What? land for peace sapws or finanical incentives or ?????
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Honestly, in the long-term I don't think it will matter.
As Zbigniew Brzezinski stated: "two communities living side by side but repressively separated, with one enjoying prosperity and seizing the lands of the other, and the other living in poverty and deprivationis an outcome which must be avoided."
The situation is similar to South Africa in many ways, except that the prosperous Israelis are not so outnumbered by the deprived Palestinians. But, Israelis are very gradually coming around to the view that what their government is doing is not right. Apartheid is a very short-term and brutal solution. I don't believe it will be accepted in the long-term and eventually a restoration of balance will occur.
Now, how bloody will that be? That will depend entirely on how events unfold between now and then. It could be like Northern Ireland and gradually the people themselves tire of the ceaseless violence. It could be like Southern Rhodesia and extremists hold on to the agenda of both sides in a bitter and bloody dispute. Right now it looks to be towards that latter end of the spectrum, but I hope that eventually it will move towards the former.
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Israel deliberately bombed apartment buildings in Lebanon. They have destroyed thousands of Palestinians' homes, and if it were not for the fact that American and Israeli media cannot be banned from the scenes of their atrocities, it is clear that they would commit even worse crimes. The Palestinians are poor and weak and desperate. The israelis are in control. Many more Palestinians have been killed by Israelis than vice versa.
Rich, you are not convincing anyone, nor will you ever convince anyone.
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Bad News From Israel - the Glasgow University Media Group
http://www.palestineonlinestore.com/books/badnews.htm
I just heard about this study on the radio this afternoon and I only tuned in in the middle of the broadcast. It was some English guy (or at least, English-sounding guy) addressing a broadcast media conference, and he referred to the study, which I googled in order to get the above link. (Which doesn't give out a whole lot of information about the contents.)
The broadcast referred in detail to the enormous imbalance in coverage, overwhelmingly favouring the Israeli side. I thought the study was on North American media, but reading the link, it appears to be U.K. media - - in which case, I would bet the U.S. media is even MORE overbalanced towards the Israeli side.
The speaker referred to adolescents who spent a certain amount of time or more watching TV newscasts, and found that most of them thought "the settlers" were the Palestinians. He referred to a "famous" comment by somebody whose name I didn't catch, that "The more they watch, the less they know." (Might be famous, but I'd never heard it before.) Apparently the media actively disinforms, so that minimal basic understanding of the conflict easily becomes twisted into pro-Israeli POV with increasing reliance on TV broadcast news media.
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>>Forget that we're talking about Israel here - it could be any country in the world. Put under this lense, it is entirely likely that civilians are deliberatly being targeted.<<
Yes, by the people you support, NOT by Israel. How ridiculous is it that you have to go to ancient military history to further your lie?
Really ridiculous.
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>>Actually, he might be little inflammatory for me, but there are gems nonetheless to be found there.I have found some of what he says to be vlaid. I am inflammatory as well, but not as systemically.<<
Inflammatory ... hmmm.
Well, considering what people ( I use the term loosely) like JS say about myself and my president and my party on a daily basis, I think to respond with a little flame is what they deserve. Frankly, they deserve more than what I give them. I can guarantee you that people who represent the left in this forum have gone to BT a month ago and asked him to remove me. I guarantee it. You see, they can say anything they like, Anything. Because without them, there's no forum. These people say the most vicious lies. They libel and slander anyone who disagrees with them. they are proven liars. Yet I am inflammatory. You read them daily, yet I'm inflammatory.
No, I just tell them to fuck off as they so richly deserve.
You can have 'em Mr. Perspective. I don't need this. I'm not sure why I even came back. To hell with them all, cuz that's where they're going.
But believe me when I tell you, they will slit your throat in a second. Don't ever trust them.
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I'd trust Miss Henny, and not think twice 8)
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>>Actually, he might be little inflammatory for me, but there are gems nonetheless to be found there.I have found some of what he says to be vlaid. I am inflammatory as well, but not as systemically.<<
Inflammatory ... hmmm.
Well, considering what people ( I use the term loosely) like JS say about myself and my president and my party on a daily basis, I think to respond with a little flame is what they deserve. Frankly, they deserve more than what I give them. I can guarantee you that people who represent the left in this forum have gone to BT a month ago and asked him to remove me. I guarantee it. You see, they can say anything they like, Anything. Because without them, there's no forum. These people say the most vicious lies. They libel and slander anyone who disagrees with them. they are proven liars. Yet I am inflammatory. You read them daily, yet I'm inflammatory.
No, I just tell them to fuck off as they so richly deserve.
You can have 'em Mr. Perspective. I don't need this. I'm not sure why I even came back. To hell with them all, cuz that's where they're going.
But believe me when I tell you, they will slit your throat in a second. Don't ever trust them.
How old are you?
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"Are you divorced?"
Totally uncalled for, socialist. It is this shit why my buddy, The Professor, quit this forum. I could call you a pussy fence sitter but I don't. As such, you shouldn't ask Rich this inflmmatory question. You disagree philiosophically, fine. To infer his marital status has anything to do wtih his debating style is pitiful. It is like me asking why your microscopic penis is even useful. Neither are relavant to the topic at hand.
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How is it that asking about Richpo's martiaL status is somehow taboo, but suggesting that JS's penis is 'microscopic' is apparently just fine?
I will agree that it is futile to argue with Richpo about Israel. He appears to be indelibly brainwashed on every aspect of the issue. Israel can do no wrong, and the Palestinians can do nothing right according to him.
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I did not say anything directly about any of his appendages. I was providing an example, O Draft Dodger.
I just like the diverse range of opinions here and hope no one does anything stupid like keeping this guy out, inflammatory nor not. He has things to say, some of which I believe is correct, regardless how he says them. Get past the presentation.
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>>Forget that we're talking about Israel here - it could be any country in the world. Put under this lense, it is entirely likely that civilians are deliberatly being targeted.<<
Yes, by the people you support, NOT by Israel. How ridiculous is it that you have to go to ancient military history to further your lie?
Really ridiculous.
Obviously you have no understanding of military strategy and strategic bombing campaigns. If you did, you would know that I am discussing recent wars in the world - not ancient history.
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I'd trust Miss Henny, and not think twice 8)
Thank you Sirs. ;D And that goes both ways.
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>>Forget that we're talking about Israel here - it could be any country in the world. Put under this lense, it is entirely likely that civilians are deliberatly being targeted.<<
Yes, by the people you support, NOT by Israel. How ridiculous is it that you have to go to ancient military history to further your lie?
Really ridiculous.
Oh, and YES Israel and YES the United States AND Britain and many other nations.
Putting your hands over your ears and yelling "La la la la la... I can't HEAR you" doesn't make things go away.
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I just like the diverse range of opinions here and hope no one does naything stupid like keeping this guy out, inflaamatory nor not. He has things to say, some of which I believe is correct, regardless how he says them. Get past the presentation.
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Richpo is some sort of Zionist nutjob. Your presentation sucks, by the way.
You attempt to sound like some big hairy, tatooed macho ex-Vietnam vet, but I can only imagine a fourteen year old zitfaced kid with an overactive imagination behind your swaggering verbal posture.
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I see the Strategy now.
First the attack on Rich, now attacks on other conservatives so, at the end, only liberals are left.
Pitiful attempt, though.
Especially coming from someone who didn't even have the balls to Serve his country.
I've seen entry recruits with more balls than you. Pace was a REAL MAN and you made sure he was taken care of. But, he knew the score.
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I see the Strategy now.
First the attack on Rich, now attacks on other conservatives so, at the end, only liberals are left.
Pitiful attempt, though.
Especially coming from someone who didn't even have the balls to Serve his country.
I've seen entry recruits with more balls than you. Pace was a REAL MAN and you made sure he was taken care of. But, he knew the score.
Which comment is factually attributed to Peter Pace:
l) "Sure I'm a REAL MAN. With a name like Peter Pace, you gotta butch it up."
2) "President Bush is the Commander in Chief, and I am his bitch."
3) "He (Rummy) leads in a way that the good Lord tells him is best for the country."
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Especially coming from someone who didn't even have the balls to Serve his country.
I've seen entry recruits with more balls than you. Pace was a REAL MAN and you made sure he was taken care of. But, he knew the score.
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There you are, blathering on about balls again. I suggest that I served my country BETTER by NOT wasting ammo in vain in Vietnam. Had I been killed there, the government would have had less money. To pay you, if in fact you really were in the Army, which I doubt. Vietnam was a totally lost cause right from the git-go. A total waste of time and money. Those who were wounded and died there died for naught. I am sorry about this, but they should have had the good sense to sit that one out.Those who served there were just encouraging the sort of Imperial crapola that Iraq is all about today.
A country that has it right needs no recruits. Just volunteers. Like perhaps Denmark or Norway.
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I have done nothing in favor of or against Pace, one way or the other. I suspect that if Juniorbush did not reappoint him, he must have gotten some thing right. Perhaps even two things.
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I'd like to say something here.
Well, considering what people ( I use the term loosely) like JS say about myself and my president and my party on a daily basis, I think to respond with a little flame is what they deserve. Frankly, they deserve more than what I give them. I can guarantee you that people who represent the left in this forum have gone to BT a month ago and asked him to remove me. I guarantee it. You see, they can say anything they like, Anything. Because without them, there's no forum. These people say the most vicious lies. They libel and slander anyone who disagrees with them. they are proven liars. Yet I am inflammatory. You read them daily, yet I'm inflammatory.
If you will ask Bt, he will tell you that I have never once asked that anyone on this forum be removed. That includes you Rich. Not once have I ever asked for such a thing.
Secondly, I might make some contumelious remarks about President Bush on occasion, but I am not one to constantly attack the guy. I make snide remarks about nearly every politician, once you work with them it is extremely difficult to have any sense of naive appreciation for any of them.
At the very least you can spit at me, condemn me to hell, etc...but you should have respect for the women on this group, especially the mothers. I don't think Our Lady would appreciate the way you've treated some of them.
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Especially coming from someone who didn't even have the balls to Serve his country.
I've seen entry recruits with more balls than you. Pace was a REAL MAN and you made sure he was taken care of. But, he knew the score.
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There you are, blathering on about balls again. I suggest that I served my country BETTER by NOT wasting ammo in vain in Vietnam. Had I been killed there, the government would have had less money. To pay you, if in fact you really were in the Army, which I doubt. Vietnam was a totally lost cause right from the git-go. A total waste of time and money. Those who were wounded and died there died for naught. I am sorry about this, but they should have had the good sense to sit that one out.Those who served there were just encouraging the sort of Imperial crapola that Iraq is all about today.
A country that has it right needs no recruits. Just volunteers. Like perhaps Denmark or Norway.
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I have done nothing in favor of or against Pace, one way or the other. I suspect that if Juniorbush did not reappoint him, he must have gotten some thing right. Perhaps even two things.
It is not YOUR determination on whether a conflict is "just" if called up. If called up, you Serve your country. Period. All else is hogwash.
And, no, I was NOT in the Army. I was in the foremost fighting force on this planet, the United States Marine Corps. And, I retired some years ago.
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<<It is not YOUR determination on whether a conflict is "just" if called up. If called up, you Serve your country. Period. All else is hogwash.>>
That can't be right. What if your country happens to be in the wrong? What if the war itself is an unprovoked act of aggression which happens to be an international war crime? It's ALWAYS the individual's determination, he alone has to decide if the conflict is right or wrong. If the President is a war criminal, who are you going to ask to determine the matter? Him? Or wait for the International Court of Justice to decide the issue? It'll never happen - - so YOU gotta decide, then and there, go along with the criminals? or resist?
All actions have consequences and each individual is accountable for his own actions. More basic than that it does not get.
Do you think some guy in Nazi Germany gets off the hook because his country's at war and he's called up? It's still his decision to serve the criminal enterprise or not. To join the army or to join the resistance. Obviously it takes more courage to resist than to go along with the majority, but the guy remains accountable for his choices.
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Do you think some guy in Nazi Germany gets off the hook because his country's at war and he's called up? It's still his decision to serve the criminal enterprise or not. To join the army or to join the resistance. Obviously it takes more courage to resist than to go along with the majority, but the guy remains accountable for his choices.
My grandfather fought in the German Army in World War II. I'm in the interesting position of having had both Grandfathers fight in World War II, on opposite sides.
He was conscripted and not a member of the Nazi party by any means. He fought on the Eastern front against the Soviets. One thing you might not be considering is that the Nazis would also do harm to one's family if you did not fight. Plus, there was no Internet or 24/7 news service at that time. Not everything the Nazis did was known to the people, especially in more rural parts of Germany.
But, it is a very interesting point you raise.
I'd question the notion of: "Ours is not to reason why, ours is but to do and die."
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I'd question the notion of: "Ours is not to reason why, ours is but to do and die."
Of course you would. It is attitudes like these that will cause the downfall of a Republic.Toward the end, many Romans decided to not serve and mercenaries ended up doing it. Hmmm, good strategy for Rome? Nope.
If you are called to Serve, you Serve. It is for your superiors to decide the matters of which you describe.
"Well, I don to agree with conflict X, so I'll just run away to Canada."
Pure unadulterated crapola.
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The downfall of Rome was very complex and went far beyond that over-simplification.
Plus, it was the military that caused the downfall of the Republic. You're thinking of the Roman Empire. ;)
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If you are called to Serve, you Serve. It is for your superiors to decide the matters of which you describe.
Not true at all.
One can always choose their course of action if they are willing to accept the consequences of that choice.
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Has the Professor really resigned from the forum?
Oh rats...
All contribution is volentary but I miss the volenteers we don't have now.
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Has the Professor really resigned from the forum?
Oh rats...
All contribution is volentary but I miss the volenteers we don't have now.
No, he's right there as Mr. Perceptive.
Or someone who misspells the same words and makes eerily similar grammar errors has replaced him just after he left. ;)
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If you are called to Serve, you Serve. It is for your superiors to decide the matters of which you describe.
Not true at all.
One can always choose their course of action if they are willing to accept the consequences of that choice.
Good point. I stand corrected. You can choose to evade the draft and be incarcerated or whatever.
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Has the Professor really resigned from the forum?
Oh rats...
All contribution is volentary but I miss the volenteers we don't have now.
He and his wife recently came back from Ethiopia with his new child. He emailed me a couple of weeks ago. I see him when I am at work. I am still away right now. I do value his friendship. We have known each other for many years now. He was an intel puke when I was still in the Corps.
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Has the Professor really resigned from the forum?
Oh rats...
All contribution is volentary but I miss the volenteers we don't have now.
No, he's right there as Mr. Perceptive.
Or someone who misspells the same words and makes eerily similar grammar errors has replaced him just after he left. ;)
Interesting. I didn't know that.
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Has the Professor really resigned from the forum?
Oh rats...
All contribution is volentary but I miss the volenteers we don't have now.
He checked back every now and then, I understand. He was pissed about some issue or another. I doubt he will be back. His call.
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<<My grandfather fought in the German Army in World War II. I'm in the interesting position of having had both Grandfathers fight in World War II, on opposite sides.>>
What would have been interesting was if the two of them met. I had a next-door neighbour who was one of the British troops that captured the Greek island of Kos from the Italians and was then taken prisoner by the Germans when they in turn invaded the island. I have a very good friend whose dad was one of the Italian defenders of Kos, imprisoned by British forces until "liberated" by the Nazis. I always meant to have them both over to our house at the same time, but it never happened. We didn't socialize with our friend's mum and dad, so there never seemed to be anything to invite them over for.
<<He was conscripted and not a member of the Nazi party by any means. He fought on the Eastern front against the Soviets.>>
Where most of the Nazi atrocities and war crimes were committed. I bet he didn't know anything, did't see anything and didn't hear anything.
<< One thing you might not be considering is that the Nazis would also do harm to one's family if you did not fight. >>
I find that very hard to believe. I saw the film Sophie Scholl, the true story of a 20-year-old university student executed for her role in the White Rose, a totally ineffective German anti-Nazi resistance cell. Her father went to the court to protest the proceedings. As far as I could tell from the film, no reprisals were taken against the Scholl family. I've read numerous reports of German Jehovah's Witnesses executed for refusing to serve or even refusing to salute the flag. Nothing that I'm aware of that indicates the families were punished.
<<Plus, there was no Internet or 24/7 news service at that time. Not everything the Nazis did was known to the people, especially in more rural parts of Germany.>>
That's a valid point. Probably about the most valid one that could be raised in the defence of the bastards. They just didn't know and had no reasonable way of knowing. The Propaganda Ministry's grip on all sources of public information was absolute. Every source of information available to the average 18-year-old was going to tell him the same story. I used to wonder if maybe it was such a good thing to kill the bastards if it wasn't really their fault. I mean it had to be done, but was it really an occasion for joy when one of them died or got seriously fucked up? In the end, I couldn't buy it. No matter what they'd been told, when they actually came face-to-face with the victims of their atrocities, they would have had to see the humanity that they were tasked with eradicating, and they had to sense the falseness of the Nazi narrative. Similarly just to listen to their Nazi leaders - - if the listener had any basic humanity at all - - would have been to reveal the profound inhumanity at the base of their philosophy, the cruelty, the glorification of violence and force. I don't believe in "innocent" Nazis. They were presented with choices and enough information filtered through to enable them to make a moral choice. Those who chose Hitler deserved to die for their choice.
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I've read numerous reports of German Jehovah's Witnesses executed for refusing to serve or even refusing to salute the flag. Nothing that I'm aware of that indicates the families were punished.
Many families of interned German Jehovah's Witnesses went into the concentration camps or prisons as well.
And this happened in many countries other than Germany - Canada included.
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I've read numerous reports of German Jehovah's Witnesses executed for refusing to serve or even refusing to salute the flag. Nothing that I'm aware of that indicates the families were punished.
Many families of interned German Jehovah's Witnesses went into the concentration camps or prisons as well.
And this happened in many countries other than Germany - Canada included.
Well, I do believe this is a valid exemption, e.g. religious beliefs.
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Well, I do believe this is a valid exemption, e.g. religious beliefs.
In the US. Now. There was a Supreme Court case about it from the time of WWII, however.
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It is not YOUR determination on whether a conflict is "just" if called up. If called up, you Serve your country. Period. All else is hogwash.
And, no, I was NOT in the Army. I was in the foremost fighting force on this planet, the United States Marine Corps. And, I retired some years ago.
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Sorry, gyrene (or bogus gyrene, whatever the poo you might really be), but my life does not belong to any damned government, especially a STUPID one that thinks that the US is threatened by a Civil War in some alien land half the world away.
I am proud that I stood up to the stupidity and avoided involuntary servitude in defense of LBJ's or Nixon's "honor".
Instead of getting killed or maimed in an unwinnable, stupid war, I got my degree, and have never been unemployed. I pay my taxes every year and I suggest that we are all better off becauses of that than me getting killed or turned into a vegetable trying to win a Vietnamese Civil War.
Obviously, I didn't go, and I was not punished in any way at all. My participation would not have changed the outcome of that silly fiasco.
LBJ knew there would be no victory. So did Nixon. They knew that over 50,000 Americans died for nothing more than the stupidity of John Foster and Allen Dulles reflected in their foolish policies.
So I do not care even one small rat's ass that you were another numbskull Marine. To me, you were a sucker. And you still are.
That, or a zitfaced teenybopper who has assumed the persona of his grampa.
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What would have been interesting was if the two of them met. I had a next-door neighbour who was one of the British troops that captured the Greek island of Kos from the Italians and was then taken prisoner by the Germans when they in turn invaded the island. I have a very good friend whose dad was one of the Italian defenders of Kos, imprisoned by British forces until "liberated" by the Nazis. I always meant to have them both over to our house at the same time, but it never happened. We didn't socialize with our friend's mum and dad, so there never seemed to be anything to invite them over for.
That is a very interesting story. My Grandfather (paternal) was in the Pacific theater though. His brother fought in France, where my maternal Grandfather's brother was also stationed for the German Army. I doubt they fought though. My Opa's (German for Grandfather) brother was some sort of radio mechanic and stationed in Paris I believe.
Where most of the Nazi atrocities and war crimes were committed. I bet he didn't know anything, did't see anything and didn't hear anything.
No, quite the opposite. My Opa died when my mom was eleven years-old. I never knew him. He returned from the war a much changed man. He became an abusive alcoholic. The only person he would speak more than two words to was his brother (the one in France). The only thing he ever said about him was that "he saw worse than any human ever should." I don't think we'll ever know what all took place, but I have tried to retrace his steps during the war. I do know that at one point his commanding officers simply left the enlisted personnel behind (fleeing from the Red Army).
One thing you might not be considering is that the Nazis would also do harm to one's family if you did not fight.
Whether they actually did or not, the simple threat was probably believable enough. My grandmother (Oma) had a great story about voting one time that I'll have to tell you. "Great" as in horrific and memorable.
That's a valid point. Probably about the most valid one that could be raised in the defence of the bastards. They just didn't know and had no reasonable way of knowing.
It really wasn't until Vietnam that the world was able to see warfare for what it is. I've read Israeli media reports on the 1978 and 1982 invasions of Lebanon - the lies they told their own people were astounding by western media standards. I think 2006 was their first look at how their own country conducts a war, which is why it rapidly sank in popularity.
Cruelty in warfare was a part of how one fought a war before the 1960's shed a great deal of light on the subject (and the Cold War used the UN to magnify each side's tin pot dictators and their cruelties). Don't get me wrong, the Germans took this to an entirely new level in World War II. Yet, as you say propaganda was powerful and all sides engaged in it.
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It is not YOUR determination on whether a conflict is "just" if called up. If called up, you Serve your country. Period. All else is hogwash.
And, no, I was NOT in the Army. I was in the foremost fighting force on this planet, the United States Marine Corps. And, I retired some years ago.
===================================================================
Sorry, gyrene (or bogus gyrene, whatever the poo you might really be), but my life does not belong to any damned government, especially a STUPID one that thinks that the US is threatened by a Civil War in some alien land half the world away.
I am proud that I stood up to the stupidity and avoided involuntary servitude in defense of LBJ's or Nixon's "honor".
Instead of getting killed or maimed in an unwinnable, stupid war, I got my degree, and have never been unemployed. I pay my taxes every year and I suggest that we are all better off becauses of that than me getting killed or turned into a vegetable trying to win a Vietnamese Civil War.
Obviously, I didn't go, and I was not punished in any way at all. My participation would not have changed the outcome of that silly fiasco.
LBJ knew there would be no victory. So did Nixon. They knew that over 50,000 Americans died for nothing more than the stupidity of John Foster and Allen Dulles reflected in their foolish policies.
So I do not care even one small rat's ass that you were another numbskull Marine. To me, you were a sucker. And you still are.
That, or a zitfaced teenybopper who has assumed the persona of his grampa.
With wimps like you, it is amazing this country still exists. I can see it now: every draftee analyzes whether they should actually go based upon THEIR OWN evaluation of whether the conflict they MAY NB headed toward is justifed in their own eyes. Horror personalified.
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With wimps like you, it is amazing this country still exists. I can see it now: every draftee analyzes whether they should actually go based upon THEIR OWN evaluation of whether the conflict they MAY NB headed toward is justifed in their own eyes. Horror personalified.
But on the other end of the spectrum, you'd be a Burmese soldier firing on unarmed monks?
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With wimps like you, it is amazing this country still exists. I can see it now: every draftee analyzes whether they should actually go based upon THEIR OWN evaluation of whether the conflict they MAY NB headed toward is justifed in their own eyes. Horror personalified.
In fairness to XO, I'm pretty sure what ever deferments he received were legal and above board.
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But on the other end of the spectrum, you'd be a Burmese soldier firing on unarmed monks?
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You bet your sweet patootie he would, and he would shoot them PROUDLY for his country.
Strangely, I always thought that the French Foreign Legion was the foremost fighting unit on the planet. Or the Special Forces. Or the Navy Seals.
Perhaps the Muhrines might be in fourth place.
But first in self-promotion. They are extremely good at that. That and brainwashing their recruits. It's almost as if Pride were not one of the Seven Deadly Sins with them.
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Perhaps there is an unawareness as to why they had to, yes had to abolish the draft. It was because it didn't work during the Vietnam War. Draftees were called, but they did not report. They went to Canada, to Sweden, hid out or just ignored it completely.
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I didn't actually have a deferment. I failed an Army physical in 1961, and they should have given me a different classification, but they didn't, so I harrassed them for it about every six months for six years and eventually they sent me an invitation for a physical, but I was in Mexico and they sent it regular mail, so I didn't get it until after the date was passed. Then I sent them copies of all the previous letters about the physical I had already taken and they just gave up.
But I didn't think they had the right to tell me that I had to go halfway around the world to fight in someone else's civil war, and I still don't.
And I have the absolute right to do whatever the Hell I want with my own body. Maybe they could make me, but that would involve catching me first. And I can be quite nimble, despite the allergies that they failed me on the physical for. It's a bit of a family tradition. No one in my lineage has fired a shot in anger since the Revolutionary War.
My Civil War ancestors were doctors and medics. My grandfather was a preacher and my father was too old for WWII and was needed at his job for a paint company, where he did the accounting on govt. contracts.
They threw a very few in jail for draft avoidance in Vietnam, but that did not add to the total number of soldiers.
If there were a draft today, there would be major rioting and civil disobedience, much worse than anything that happened in Vietnam. You can't tell people that they are free and then force them into uniforms and into combat in the US. This was done by Stalin in the USSR, but it didn't work there, either. Of course, the USSR was being invaded, which is quite different.
My guess is with about two million demonstrators, someone would yank Cheney and Juniorbush out of their cushy limos and offices and drown their sorry asses in the Reflecting Pool if they got the timing right. Could happen, but not without a draft. And maybe a court ruling that women were not exempt from the draft.
It might be considered a braver deed to do this than to go off and die in Iraq for their stupidity, arrogance and incompetence.
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Strangely, I always thought that the French Foreign Legion was the foremost fighting unit on the planet. Or the Special Forces. Or the Navy Seals.
Delta.
They do the Navy SEALS 6 week training program in *one* of their training weeks (they call it "Hell Week").
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My guess is that is the draft were reinstituted and was done by lottery with few to no exemptions or deferments there would be about 95% compliance, especially if state issued privileges like drivers licenses and student loans or attendance at govt funded institutions of higher learning were predicated on compliance.
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Strangely, I always thought that the French Foreign Legion was the foremost fighting unit on the planet. Or the Special Forces. Or the Navy Seals.
Delta.
They do the Navy SEALS 6 week training program in *one* of their training weeks (they call it "Hell Week").
SAS
SASR
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My guess is that is the draft were reinstituted and was done by lottery with few to no exemptions or deferments there would be about 95% compliance, especially if state issued privileges like drivers licenses and student loans or attendance at govt funded institutions of higher learning were predicated on compliance.
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Not even close. First, there would be hundreds of lawsuits. Then there would be thousands of internet blogs on how to fail the physical and how to get rejected.
Not that it will ever happen. The draft is dead, barring Chinese marching across the Bering Straits. But wait: Global Warming would make the ice rotten and we would be safe.
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My guess is that is the draft were reinstituted and was done by lottery with few to no exemptions or deferments there would be about 95% compliance, especially if state issued privileges like drivers licenses and student loans or attendance at govt funded institutions of higher learning were predicated on compliance.
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Not even close. First, there would be hundreds of lawsuits. Then there would be thousands of internet blogs on how to fail the physical and how to get rejected.
Not that it will ever happen. The draft is dead, barring Chinese marching across the Bering Straits. But wait: Global Warming would make the ice rotten and we would be safe.
I've got to agree.
As long as there is a priveleged class (and there most certainly is) there will not be anything close to 95% compliance.
The "best and brightest" have to remain. Or as many Young Republicans mentioned at the 2004 RNC convention, they have to remain and fight the fight here against abortion and higher taxes!
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Not even close. First, there would be hundreds of lawsuits. Then there would be thousands of internet blogs on how to fail the physical and how to get rejected.
And for every lawsuit and every failed physical there would be deeper draws into the lottery. Instead of 66 being a safe number 166 might be. and you don't think the picks in danger wouldn't put a little peer pressure on the slackers?
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The "best and brightest" have to remain. Or as many Young Republicans mentioned at the 2004 RNC convention, they have to remain and fight the fight here against abortion and higher taxe
How do these best and brightest avoid the draft when there are limited deferments and exemptions?
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The "best and brightest" have to remain. Or as many Young Republicans mentioned at the 2004 RNC convention, they have to remain and fight the fight here against abortion and higher taxe
How do these best and brightest avoid the draft when there are limited deferments and exemptions?
Their fathers, uncles, politicians they support with massive donations, etc... will be writing the law, that's my guess.
I'm not dismissing your idealism Bt, I respect it. I just don't think it will work in a society where class is as important as it is. Realistically, the children of the Bush and Kennedy families aren't going to fight beside the children of the families' from Dalton, GA or Unicoi, TN. I think you know that.
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Their fathers, uncles, politicians they support with massive donations, etc... will be writing the law, that's my guess.
And do you think the voters would put up with that crap. Not this time around. No student deferments, no gender exemptions, and i'm not sure certain disabilities would be exempted in this day and age of ADA. Can always use support personnel.
Luck of the draw.
If anything enlistments in the safer branches would skyrocket.
I served beside many from the upper middle and lower upper classes, either in the enlisted or officer sides of the divide.
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nd do you think the voters would put up with that crap. Not this time around. No student deferments, no gender exemptions, and i'm not sure certain disabilities would be exempted in this day and age of ADA. Can always use support personnel.
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The voters will put up with whatever crap is shat in their direction. Observe how they put up with Juniorbush and Cheney's inane antics.
Do you think that they would ever fire Blackwater and the rest of the mercenaries, considering how profitable they are for all concerned?
Not a gonna happen. No draft unless the country is faced with armed invasion.
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So Lanya's whole meme about the armed forces being broken is just idle chatter.
No real concern?
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If you are called to Serve, you Serve. It is for your superiors to decide the matters of which you describe.
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not quite true
if I were allowed to serve I would be a conscientious objector
I`m not capable of taking a human life
I know some folks think I`m a traitor and a coward for this and I say have fun having kids with your mom.
but besides that I`ll serve my country as a medic which does not even require me to carry a gun.
many has serve thier country without being in the front line and are hardy less valuable
if that`s a problem tough.
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The "best and brightest" have to remain. Or as many Young Republicans mentioned at the 2004 RNC convention, they have to remain and fight the fight here against abortion and higher taxe
How do these best and brightest avoid the draft when there are limited deferments and exemptions?
Their fathers, uncles, politicians they support with massive donations, etc... will be writing the law, that's my guess.
I'm not dismissing your idealism Bt, I respect it. I just don't think it will work in a society where class is as important as it is. Realistically, the children of the Bush and Kennedy families aren't going to fight beside the children of the families' from Dalton, GA or Unicoi, TN. I think you know that.
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In some cases, people would send their kids to study abroad (like Joe Lieberman's son). In others, I imagine there would be churches that required several years of missionary service that kids could belong to.
If people don't feel now that they're obligated to pay taxes at a rate proportionate to their income, if they don't feel they should pay for the war NOW, why on earth would anyone expect any of them to give up their lives or their children's lives?
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In some cases, people would send their kids to study abroad (like Joe Lieberman's son). In others, I imagine there would be churches that required several years of missionary service that kids could belong to.
I'm guessing there is not a clear understanding of what no deferment, no exemptions means.
If your number is drawn plan to be gone a couple of years. End of story.
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In some cases, people would send their kids to study abroad (like Joe Lieberman's son). In others, I imagine there would be churches that required several years of missionary service that kids could belong to.
I'm guessing there is not a clear understanding of what no deferment, no exemptions means.
If your number is drawn plan to be gone a couple of years. End of story.
Amen!
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If there are no deferments at all, then the way to beat the system is to fail the physical and mental tests. With the internet at hand, the ways to do this will be all over the place.
But this is an entirely moot point. There won't be a draft. Not for Iraq & Afghanistan.
It would mean that Blackwater & all the private mercenary companies would be thrown out of fat, juicy contracts, so the GOP won't back it, and it's friggin involuntary servitude, so the Democrats won't either.
That would leave, like, Joe Lieberman?
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Look, it is not rocket science. Your number gets called. You take a physical, barring any issues like religious objections and such, you go wherever you're told or you go to jail. Simple. No college deferments, no "I don't wanna go" or "I don't want my baby to go". Your parents income status means zip. You go or take the consequences.
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what about folks who can`t kill like me
I already stated I`m will ing to serve just not in that way.
am I going to jail?
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Wanna be a medic?
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This continues to be a totally moot point.
There will be no draft.
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I will do any job that does not require me to take a life
I used to kill pigeons with my bare hands,but now I can barely get rid of the mice in my own home.
as i get older I`m just can`t bare the thought of taking any kind of life anymore.
don`t get me wrong I still eat meat.
ok I`m starting to eat less and less
but the thought doesn`t give me joy.
I won`t even touch pigeons anymore.
insects are still fair game for now
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insects are still fair game for now
And many of them can be good eatin'
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What bugs, arachnids, arthopods and other creepy crawly, yet delicious, critters have you snacked on recently?
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What bugs, arachnids, arthopods and other creepy crawly, yet delicious, critters have you snacked on recently?
Hell, I eat arthropods nearly daily. I love shrimp, crab, crawfish, etc.
Been a while since I had any arachnids or insects - other than what everyone ingests from packaged foods. Also, fresh fruit nearly always has insect life within it (much of it microscopic). Where do you think fruit flys come from? They emerge from the fruit after it sits in your house for a few days.
Next year, I'm taking a trip to central America and Mexico, I expect to eat ants, caterpillars, and grasshoppers on the trip. I always eat local delicacies while traveling.
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i love eating crawdads
I`m more than willing to eat insects
but can`t find any commercials grade stuff
I won`t eat the yard stuff
no telling what those have eaten
but I`ve eaten at least a ton of all kinds of snails
san jose has a whole mess of asian buffets that serve snails
and I`ve eaten both kinds escargot(french and italian)
Italian is better of course.
and I rarely turn down oysters
prefer steamed ,better texture to me
alaskin kind crab is probly the only thing I won`t eat
I just don`t like the taste
either flavourless or too salty
shame it has alot of meat
too bad I`m too poor to ever try those catsize lobster
they look deliscious.
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I can agree with you about crabs. I don't like the flavor of any of them that I have tried.
Lobster is okay in a bisque. Not too bad in the traditional boiled recipe.
Langostino al mojo de ajo is much better. Hard to find, except on the W. Coast of Mexico.
I am very fond of shrimp.
I have eaten grasshoppers in Mexico, but they don't have any flavor, unless you consider "crunchy" a flavor.
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I can agree with you about crabs. I don't like the flavor of any of them that I have tried.
Lobster is okay in a bisque. Not too bad in the traditional boiled recipe.
I love the taste of crabs. Any variety. Lobster is rather tasteless, it tends to take on the flavor of what it's cooked in.
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In love langostino
i use it on eggs
littlen lobster tails
people think they are
In get them at trader joes
but they might of ran out by now
the really good stuff tend to stop being sold
like baskin and robbins apple pie ice cream
my most favorite food
which they stop making over 20 years ago
and almost all my other favorite tend to be discontinued.
too good to last