DebateGate

General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Universe Prince on March 06, 2008, 04:21:33 PM

Title: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Universe Prince on March 06, 2008, 04:21:33 PM
From the Los Angeles Times:

      Parents who lack teaching credentials cannot educate their children at home, according to a state appellate court ruling that is sending waves of fear through California's home schooling families.

[...]

The appellate panel ruled that Sunland officials' occasional monitoring of the Longs' home schooling -- with the children taking some tests at the school -- is insufficient to qualify as being enrolled in a private school. Since Mary Long does not have a teaching credential, the family is violating state laws, the ruling said.

"Parents do not have a constitutional right to home school their children," wrote Justice H. Walter Croskey in a Feb. 28 opinion signed by the two other members of the district court. "Parents who fail to [comply with school enrollment laws] may be subject to a criminal complaint against them, found guilty of an infraction, and subject to imposition of fines or an order to complete a parent education and counseling program."
      

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-homeschool6mar06,1,4399394.story (http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-homeschool6mar06,1,4399394.story)

This situation seems ripe for the kind of civil disobedience we were talking about a few days ago.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 06, 2008, 04:25:40 PM
This situation seems ripe for the kind of civil disobedience we were talking about a few days ago.

Unfortunately, yep       :-\
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Michael Tee on March 06, 2008, 05:14:12 PM
The kids have a right to a decent education. 

IMHO, home-schooling by a bunch of ignorant fanatics exercising parental rights amounts to child abuse.  They'll grow up dumb as shit and past a certain point there won't be any remedial education that'll work. 

I think it's unfortunate that some parents are good teachers and some aren't, but the state can't afford to get into evaluations which are necessarily subjective to some degree.  Best solution is to outlaw all religious, ethnic and home-schooling, and mandate that every kid without exception attend a regular school week in a regular school year at his neighbourhood public school.  If the parents want to supplement their kids' education, they can do it at home, after school hours.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Rich on March 06, 2008, 05:34:45 PM
Nevermind
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: fatman on March 06, 2008, 05:55:02 PM
That was MT's reply dipshit, not XO.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Rich on March 06, 2008, 06:01:12 PM
Oops, the fat fag pointed out a mistake.

Sorry, I had to acknowledge him because of the mistake. It won't happen again.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: fatman on March 06, 2008, 06:20:49 PM
There you go again.  Pissy that you made a mistake.  Poor lil' guy.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Universe Prince on March 06, 2008, 06:36:55 PM

The kids have a right to a decent education.


The parents have a right to decide what they want that education to be.


IMHO, home-schooling by a bunch of ignorant fanatics exercising parental rights amounts to child abuse.  They'll grow up dumb as shit and past a certain point there won't be any remedial education that'll work.


Um, no. The worst one might honestly say is that they might end up ignorant of certain things. Ignorant and dumb are not the same. And as I understand it, homeschooled children on average perform better on standard tests than public school children.


I think it's unfortunate that some parents are good teachers and some aren't, but the state can't afford to get into evaluations which are necessarily subjective to some degree.  Best solution is to outlaw all religious, ethnic and home-schooling, and mandate that every kid without exception attend a regular school week in a regular school year at his neighbourhood public school.  If the parents want to supplement their kids' education, they can do it at home, after school hours.


Remove from parents the power to choose how and where their children are educated? Then why even bother letting parents rear children at all?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 06, 2008, 06:41:37 PM
Best solution is to outlaw all religious, ethnic and home-schooling, and mandate that every kid without exception attend a regular school week in a regular school year at his neighbourhood public school.[/quote]

Remove from parents the power to choose how and where their children are educated? Then why even bother letting parents rear children at all?

I think that's the whole idea.  Folks like Tee & the Government simply know better than the rest of us schmucks
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Michael Tee on March 06, 2008, 06:46:33 PM
<<The parents have a right to decide what they want that education to be.>>

All rights being subject to reasonable limitations, the parents' right to decide on their kids' education stops short at child abuse and stops short at depriving them of the same educational opportunities as other kids.  They don't OWN those kids, you know.  They still have parental responsibilities and if they don't live up to them, the state will take those kids and put them with someone who will.

<<Um, no. The worst one might honestly say is that they might end up ignorant of certain things. Ignorant and dumb are not the same. And as I understand it, homeschooled children on average perform better on standard tests than public school children.>>

Well in real life the law is never called on to deal with "average" children - - it deals with real kids with real names and decides if Johnny is getting the education he deserves or not.


<<Remove from parents the power to choose how and where their children are educated? Then why even bother letting parents rear children at all?>>

The parents who DO rear their kids must conform to minimal acceptable standards of rearing children and if they don't, they WILL lose those kids.  Don't kid yourself into believing that the state doesn't have the right and the duty to see that kids are reared and educated to at least minimum acceptable standards.  There is no property in a child - - the child has rights and the parent who won't provide those rights won't have that child.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on March 06, 2008, 08:15:38 PM
"They'll grow up dumb as shit"

Statistics show that students educated at home score measurably higher on standardized
tests like the SAT, where homeschoolers were 67 points above the national average.

In 1999, according to the College Board, the average score for home-schoolers was
602 verbal and 550 math. For those traditionally schooled in Pennsylvania, the average
was 498 verbal and 495 math.

(http://www.post-gazette.com/images/20000501HOMESC.GIF)

http://www.post-gazette.com/regionstate/20000501homeschool5.asp (http://www.post-gazette.com/regionstate/20000501homeschool5.asp)

Yeah the government is doing such a wonderful job educating our children.  ::)
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 06, 2008, 08:20:25 PM
Something tells me this appeals court ruling will be stayed. Seems a smart lawyer would question the use of "emergency credentials" in the public schools and challenge why those districts are not in violation of the same laws they are using against the home schoolers. Can you say class action lawsuit?

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Michael Tee on March 06, 2008, 08:22:12 PM
Averages don't mean shit in the eyes of the law.  The law is concerned with doing justice to individuals, not to averages.  Just because the "average" home-schooled kid does better than "the average" public schooled kid has no bearing at all on whether a particular kid whose case is before the court is getting an acceptable education or not.

If the court is called upon to decide whether little Johnny is getting a substandard education or not, all the evidence in the world about the "average" home-schooled kid don't mean shit.  He could be getting home-schooled by a couple of morons - - why should they benefit by what happens to the "average" home schooled kid?

<<Yeah the government is doing such a wonderful job educating our children.  >>

Totally missing the point yet again.  Oh well, what else is new?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 06, 2008, 08:29:07 PM
Mikey,

The case wasn't about whether the Long children were being properly educated. It was about whether the state could legally require homeschool teachers to be certified.

Understand it is common for school districts to issue or have issued emergency credentials for teachers who are not fully qualified. Goose / gander.





Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on March 06, 2008, 08:30:33 PM
You stated "home-schooling by a bunch of ignorant fanatics exercising
parental rights amounts to child abuse. They'll grow up dumb as shit"

Well sorry the facts state your gvt educated students are more likely to grow up dumb as shit.

So again you spew poop and are proven wrong.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Michael Tee on March 06, 2008, 09:04:28 PM
<<The case wasn't about whether the Long children were being properly educated. It was about whether the state could legally require homeschool teachers to be certified.>>

So what?  If the state has a right of oversight to ensure that the kids aren't being short-changed educationally, HOW they go about enforcing that right of oversight on a cost-effective basis that still respects human rights to the extent of not trampling on them any more than is absolutely necessary to fulfilling their mandate is their business.  It seems to me that licensing requirements is one reasonable way to go.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Rich on March 06, 2008, 09:07:30 PM
>>Folks like Tee & the Government simply know better than the rest of us schmucks<<

What other explanation could there be? It' right out of Mao's little red book.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: fatman on March 06, 2008, 09:11:59 PM
What other explanation could there be? It' right out of Mao's little red book.

At least he's literate enough to read it.  You'd probably read it and claimed Hitler wrote it.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 06, 2008, 09:28:31 PM
Quote
So what?  If the state has a right of oversight to ensure that the kids aren't being short-changed educationally, HOW they go about enforcing that right of oversight on a cost-effective basis that still respects human rights to the extent of not trampling on them any more than is absolutely necessary to fulfilling their mandate is their business.  It seems to me that licensing requirements is one reasonable way to go.

One of the guiding principles of justice is that laws be applied equally. How is it fair for the state to issue an emergency credentials when it needs one yet set higher standards for home schoolers.

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Michael Tee on March 06, 2008, 09:49:36 PM
<<One of the guiding principles of justice is that laws be applied equally. How is it fair for the state to issue an emergency credentials when it needs one yet set higher standards for home schoolers.>>

I go along with what you say in general, although I haven't given this the same consideration as the judge did.  He might have figured that there are plenty of safeguards built into the school system already, maybe there is professional supervision of the emergency-credentialled teachers, maybe the emergency credentials are good for limited time only, maybe the standards aren't really higher, just easier for some reason to meet than for homeschoolers - - I don't really know.  If there's no logical reason to discriminate, then obviously they shouldn't discriminate.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 06, 2008, 09:52:14 PM
One of the guiding principles of justice is that laws be applied equally.
How is it fair for the state to issue an emergency credentials when it needs one yet set higher standards for home schoolers.


BINGO 
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Universe Prince on March 06, 2008, 10:53:46 PM

the parents' right to decide on their kids' education stops short at child abuse and stops short at depriving them of the same educational opportunities as other kids.


Neither of which has anyone provided any evidence of having occurred. Until someone does, the argument is without substance.


They don't OWN those kids, you know.  They still have parental responsibilities and if they don't live up to them, the state will take those kids and put them with someone who will.


They still have parental responsibilities? Why, yes, they do. Responsibilities which they are trying to fulfill. If the children were being left wholly uneducated, you might have a point. But they aren't, and you don't.


Well in real life the law is never called on to deal with "average" children


Setting aside for the moment of whether that is true or not, there seems to have been a misunderstanding. I'll try to clarify by rephrasing. Homeschooled children perform, on average, better on standard tests than public school children.

(Aside to Stray Pooch: Shut up. Just don't even think about it.)


The parents who DO rear their kids must conform to minimal acceptable standards of rearing children and if they don't, they WILL lose those kids.  Don't kid yourself into believing that the state doesn't have the right and the duty to see that kids are reared and educated to at least minimum acceptable standards.  There is no property in a child - - the child has rights and the parent who won't provide those rights won't have that child.


Well, gee, that sure seems reasonable, except for the fact that this part of the conversation started with you saying, "outlaw all religious, ethnic and home-schooling, and mandate that every kid without exception attend a regular school week in a regular school year at his neighbourhood public school." You've essentially advocated removing from parents the power to choose how and where their children are educated. How can parents take responsibility for rearing their children when you take the power to effectively rear children away from the parents? And so the question remains, why even bother letting parents rear children at all?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Stray Pooch on March 08, 2008, 06:20:17 AM
(Aside to Stray Pooch: Shut up. Just don't even think about it.)

Why UP, whatever could you mean by that?   :D

The obvious problem with this ruling is that the judge made the statement that parents have no "constitutional right" to home school.  Typical. This is the problem with liberals.  They view the Constitution as a source of rights, instead of a document designed to protect them.  I have always said the most ignorant argument anyone can make about a rights issue is "there is no such right in the Constitution."  I hate to see such an argument coming from a judge.

The problem is that a more coherent and relevant argument can be made.  Although MTs claims of child abuse are typical hyperbole, a more realistic argument can be made with the same practical effect.  Though the right of a parent to teach his children is inherent, the state's interest in education is long since established.  As such, a simple application of the principle of equality established in Brown vs. Board of Education would suggest that home schooling, regardless of outcome, is not equal to public schooling.  The same argument could be equally applied (no pun intended) to private schools.  Competing claims about freedom of religion and expression would be weighed against the state's interest in educating the population.  The bottom line may well be that the state's right to impose educational standards and insure comnpliance supercede the right of a parent to control his child's education.   A legally sustainable conclusion would be that only public education could provide an equal opportunity to all children, as defined by the principles of Brown.

In other words, an unintended consequence of Brown, one of the greatest freedom-enhancing decisions in the court's history, would be to deny freedom to another segment of society half a century later.

There's a Shakespearian quote about lawyers in the back of my mind here . . .
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Stray Pooch on March 08, 2008, 06:47:30 AM
How can parents take responsibility for rearing their children when you take the power to effectively rear children away from the parents? And so the question remains, why even bother letting parents rear children at all?

This line of reasoning with MT fails to consider a fundamental philosophical tenet of communism.  Allow me to quote the non-comedic Marx.


Quote from: The Communist Manifesto:  http://www.anu.edu.au/polsci/marx/classics/manifesto.html
Abolition of the family! Even the most radical flare up at this infamous proposal of the Communists.

On what foundation is the present family, the bourgeois family, based? On capital, on private gain. In its completely developed form, this family exists only among the bourgeoisie. But this state of things finds its complement in the practical absence of the family among proletarians, and in public prostitution.

The bourgeois family will vanish as a matter of course when its complement vanishes, and both will vanish with the vanishing of capital.

Do you charge us with wanting to stop the exploitation of children by their parents? To this crime we plead guilty.

But, you say, we destroy the most hallowed of relations, when we replace home education by social.

And your education! Is not that also social, and determined by the social conditions under which you educate, by the intervention direct or indirect, of society, by means of schools, etc.? The Communists have not intended the intervention of society in education; they do but seek to alter the character of that intervention, and to rescue education from the influence of the ruling class.

The bourgeois claptrap about the family and education, about the hallowed correlation of parents and child, becomes all the more disgusting, the more, by the action of Modern Industry, all the family ties among the proletarians are torn asunder, and their children transformed into simple articles of commerce and instruments of labor.

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on March 08, 2008, 02:29:36 PM
If you want a job done right, you can either do it yourself, or hire a professional. I imagine that most people would hire someone to fix their car AC, for example. Is educating your child more or less important or complicated than a car AC? I'd say teaching the kid is both more complicated and more important. Most people have someone else do their income taxes, which I have found is not hard at all using software on the PC. I'd call this less complicated and more important than educating a child as well.


American schools are a long ways from the best, compared with schools in Europe and Japan.

The way we run schools, with elected schoolboards staffed by non-professionals results in out students knowing considerably LESS than students the same age in the Netherlands, Scandinavia, France, Switzerland and Germany, just to name a few countries that outdo us.

There should be SOME supervision over parents who wish to homeschool their children, They should have some degree of preparation evident. Perhaps the parents need to pass some sort of exam.

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 08, 2008, 03:32:40 PM
If you want a job done right, you can either do it yourself, or hire a professional. I imagine that most people would hire someone to fix their car AC, for example. Is educating your child more or less important or complicated than a car AC? I'd say teaching the kid is both more complicated and more important. Most people have someone else do their income taxes, which I have found is not hard at all using software on the PC. I'd call this less complicated and more important than educating a child as well.


American schools are a long ways from the best, compared with schools in Europe and Japan.

The way we run schools, with elected schoolboards staffed by non-professionals results in out students knowing considerably LESS than students the same age in the Netherlands, Scandinavia, France, Switzerland and Germany, just to name a few countries that outdo us.

There should be SOME supervision over parents who wish to homeschool their children, They should have some degree of preparation evident. Perhaps the parents need to pass some sort of exam.




One of the reasons that the schools in France are better than those in the US, is that they have a predictable and  consistent plan of action from year to year to year. Their system pulls no surprise punches on the community, the educators, or the parents andchildren. The expectations of all involved remain consistent with high standards year after year after year....
The parents know what is expected of the student from year to year. The teacher has a solid plan from year to year. The students are aware of exactly what is expected of them from year to year. Progress!

In our school system, we mess with the tangles in the hair so damned much that wearing a wig is required to walk into the society!!  We tend to cover the mistakes the system is responsible for creating, by blaming those very teachers who have had to endure such comb outs. Some of the educators in the system are bad apples...but NOT ALL. We blame on a daily basis. Schools ON THE NEWS for minor things....like recently in our own city....a speech therapist doesn't get to service a child for just three hours...and she is sued. When in fact, the lack of the three hours comes down to interruptions like assemblies, and other things principals require. But no one looked at that as the reason..the speech therapist is blamed and better make up the hours. 
A school fails to service a bi-lingual program by a mear two hours...and it is ON THE NEWS.. my god!

Change(and not positive changes for the most part) are the only consistent things we can expect from year to year in US schools. I suppose that is par for the course to get on course in any system overhaul.

And of course, change is a good thing; but when there is a turn over of board members and superintendents year after year...... sometimes within the school year.....When there are curriculum switch-a-roos year after year sometimes month after month....when there are demands that teachers become highly qualified by taking a magic bullet test, or a one credit hour in math even if those veteran teachers after having taught for years and well....those types of changes do more harm than good. Inconsistent and damaging to moral, etc. The cure does not fit the illness.

While, I agree that changes are necessary in order to improve schools, it is also damaging when not done right.
The flip flopping of individuals who have the final say in a matter...i.e. board members, superintendents, make for a dysfunctional system if the child has to bear the brunt.

So you ask yourself.....are the French people better educated than we? Or...Do are they better prepared because they have been able to sustain growth through consistent best practices as a whole system?

More intelligent is not necessarily the outcome of such a system.

 NCLB is a good idea. Sure, there I said it..... I have always believed we need such an act to find that sense of consistency ...why? who the hell wants to LEAVE A CHILD BEHIND?
But, I also say that the way we are going about it has a lot more to do with politics than brilliant educators who know and have studied education and who are at the very top of the system ---guiding it into port.

But, we are headed in the right direction at least. I have a better feeling about the whole thing. If we can get through the storm, we might find that consistency and stay the course, if we don't throw the teachers who are good...out with the bathwater. The fear of being good enough is backfiring and leaving some children not only behind but scrambling to learn....THUS HOME SCHOOLING..Who in their right mind wants a child to go without all that can be offered in education? I wouldn't want that for my child. I would want my child to have a well rounded education.

 But, I do have to admit,  I feel more hopeful that through time we might see a solid base for educating our young people in the PS. I hope.  My biggest gripe is that we have had to throw out several vital subjects to make room for three basic subjects..."reading, writing and arithmetic".

When I started teaching, the curriculum included everything. Everything. Perhpas we have cleaned the chalkboard to start over? One step at a time? Bring in the jazz later? Well, god I hope so...or we will see very dysfunctional, culturally and artistically challenged beings in our society.

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Universe Prince on March 08, 2008, 04:40:00 PM

If you want a job done right, you can either do it yourself, or hire a professional. I imagine that most people would hire someone to fix their car AC, for example. Is educating your child more or less important or complicated than a car AC? I'd say teaching the kid is both more complicated and more important.


Possibly it is. That is hardly a reason to ban homeschooling.


There should be SOME supervision over parents who wish to homeschool their children, They should have some degree of preparation evident. Perhaps the parents need to pass some sort of exam.


Why? Is the priority the qualifications of the parent or the education of the student? Let the student take standard tests. If he can pass, say, the same tests local public school children take, then obviously the student is learning as well or better than the students in public school. If we must have standards, the child learning should be the standard since that is the outcome desired, is it not? Or is the desired outcome merely to prevent homeschooling?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 08, 2008, 04:52:50 PM
Let the student take standard tests. If he can pass, say, the same tests local public school children take, then obviously the student is leaning as well or better than the students in public school. If we must have standards, the child learning should be the standard since that is the outcome desired, is it not? Or is the desired outcome merely to prevent homeschooling?

I think you may be on to something there, Prince
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Universe Prince on March 08, 2008, 04:58:55 PM

As such, a simple application of the principle of equality established in Brown vs. Board of Education would suggest that home schooling, regardless of outcome, is not equal to public schooling.


But then, not all public schooling is equal either.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Universe Prince on March 08, 2008, 05:01:40 PM
Quote

Do you charge us with wanting to stop the exploitation of children by their parents? To this crime we plead guilty.


No, I charge you with wanting to exploit children for your own purposes.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 08, 2008, 05:13:03 PM
UP,

You assume that the unsupervised parent is teaching high quality standards.

What if the parent decides to teach the child a radically religious-based curriculum?

What if the parent gives a narrow view of the world through the process of a comfortable "schooling at home"...a view that is biased and prejudicial. Sure, there are extreme examples of white Supremacists who decide to teach their children to hate the government, or to hate- period. A slippery slope? Freedom to teach without standards that are universal to a given society is dangerous.

If, say, a parent thinks it is ok to hit a child for the sake of discipline with the attitude that a "hit"  is a hit is a hit...a pat on the butt is a pat on the butt ...unless, of course that pat comes after the parent has consumed a six pack or two? Then the hit falls into a possible abuse. Slippery slope.

Parents who home school must be held to high and consistent standards. ....and someone has to monitor the parent's methods of teaching, not to mention curriculum.

 Who really knows what goes on behind closed doors.

Then again, should we be allowed to make home visits on parents who home school, and decide to put them on the evening news if they do not hold up to such high standards?

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 08, 2008, 05:25:17 PM
UP,  You are under the assumtion that the unsupervised parent is teaching high quality standards.  What if the parent decides to teach the child a radically religious-based curriculum?  What if the parent gives a narrow view of the world through the process of a comfortable "schooling at home".

Miss Cynthia, with all due respect.......so what?  The point Prince accurately referenced; are the children passing the tests??  If they are, what business is it of yours how they're taught?


Who really knows what goes on behind closed doors.

I seem to recall a rage from Democrats complaining how the GOP supposedly wanted to know what was going on with person's private lives. (Strange how its the left gleefully talking about outing gay people) Are you one those??  If there's abuse, there are mechanisms already in place.  You're advocating not just stepping over those mechanisms, but to remove the parent from parental decisions.  Specifically as it relates to education

Now, you won't find a bigger supporter of teachers than me.  Their job gets no where near the respect and admiration it deserves.  BUT, to usurp parents decisions on how their own child is to be raised, because you need to know what's going on behind closed doors, sounds almost KGB-like.

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Rich on March 08, 2008, 05:48:11 PM
>>Miss Cynthia, with all due respect.......so what?  The point Prince accurately referenced; are the children passing the tests??  If they are, what business is it of yours how they're taught?<<

It's interesting that the first complaint is that they may be being taught a "radically religious-based curriculum."
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 08, 2008, 06:09:06 PM
UP,  You are under the assumtion that the unsupervised parent is teaching high quality standards.  What if the parent decides to teach the child a radically religious-based curriculum?  What if the parent gives a narrow view of the world through the process of a comfortable "schooling at home".

Miss Cynthia, with all due respect.......so what?  The point Prince accurately referenced; are the children passing the tests??  If they are, what business is it of yours how they're taught?


Who really knows what goes on behind closed doors.

I seem to recall a rage from Democrats complaining how the GOP supposedly wanted to know what was going on with person's private lives. (Strange how its the left gleefully talking about outing gay people) Are you one those??  If there's abuse, there are mechanisms already in place.  You're advocating not just stepping over those mechanisms, but to remove the parent from parental decisions.  Specifically as it relates to education

Now, you won't find a bigger supporter of teachers than me.  Their job gets no where near the respect and admiration it deserves.  BUT, to usurp parents decisions on how their own child is to be raised, because you need to know what's going on behind closed doors, sounds almost KGB-like.



So, are you saying that a good education comes down to a test?
What about the socialization factors involved, the spirit, the connection with others...a child's ability to interact and solve problems that can not be measured on a test?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Stray Pooch on March 08, 2008, 06:12:59 PM
Quote

Do you charge us with wanting to stop the exploitation of children by their parents? To this crime we plead guilty.


No, I charge you with wanting to exploit children for your own purposes.

Precisely.  In fact, Marx says pretty much exactly that in that quote.  "The Communists have not intended the intervention of society in education; they do but seek to alter the character of that intervention, and to rescue education from the influence of the ruling class. "  Marx was proud and quite in-your-face about his intentions.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 08, 2008, 06:37:27 PM
So, are you saying that a good education comes down to a test?

Not "a" test, but multiple tests, taken over an extended amount of time as the child grows.  The same standardized tests taken by those in Public School, I do believe.  It they are consistently passing (although I keep hearing how they are predominatly exceeding the students in Public School) said standardized tests, that demonstrate compotence in reading, writing, math, & science, again what business is it yours if they're being taught differently, than how you'd teach them??


What about the socialization factors involved, the spirit, the connection with others...a child's ability to interact and solve problems that can not be measured on a test?

This is the ONLY area where Public school does provide more, that being the ability to socialize.  the problem is that homeschooling does not in any way equate to the child being locked in a room, and prevented from having any source of outside friendship.  it just means they have to meet with their friends AFTER school is out, interacting to their heart's content.  Not sure what the problem is with that either.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 08, 2008, 07:00:34 PM
"Miss Cynthia, with all due respect.......so what?  The point Prince accurately referenced; are the children passing the tests??  If they are, what business is it of yours how they're taught?"

First of all, thanks for the due respect....I have always felt comfortable debating you because of that, Sirs Pc..thanks

Anyway....I realize that it is not my business "what or how the child is taught"...as the home environment is allowed certain privilege of privacy; but I do believe that it is the business of the society to know what is taught and how. Why would the home schooling system be so afraid to allow that window of observation and data collection?

I also think that it is the business of the child to know what and how things are being taught in the "outside world" -----as they will someday enter into that world to interact with others.

I suppose the bottom line, which goes back to the other post I made about the schools in France, -----that consistency of WHAT is taught, is an important key. France has it. Why not we. What are the goals here?
 We are approaching it in a risky way, imo.... if the systems that educate can't come to some sort of agreement as to what is important when it comes to teaching our children. Is passing a multiple choice test on the History of the nation more important than the ability to answer questions with critical thinking, and be able to use such critical thinking to solve problems in the every day?  I am not saying that they are not both important, but the WHAT seems to be very critical as far educating the generations to come and currently we hold no consistency in that matter.

 Why can't  we know WHAT is being taught in the home schooling environment?

In the longrun..and down the road, who's to say that the parent's values, etc that are passed on to the child through a socialization that is provided in the home schooling environment, will someday have a negative affect on us all?

 Subtle values like prejudice against gays, or hate for one religion or another,...these things can not be measured on a test.

Parents have the power to teach such attitudes.

When I was an undergraduate, we learned about "'Values Clarification". We were taught to be very careful not to pass on our  personal values(consciously or subconscously) to children in the classroom.

I believe it is very important to steer clear of passing on such attitudes, biases, and personal values to children while in the mode of learning. Children need to "acquire" critical thinking, facts, skills and an overall unbiased approach while learning.

If we were to study the two ....home schooled kids /vs /non home schooled kids, we might see that both have passed the "tests" with flying colors, but at what cost?

Personal bias. Personal feelings. Those transfer to a child. If a parent holds a particular disdain for another thread of thought.....does he have the right to educate the child.

DOes that child deserve to be taught by that parent? I say no.

I also think that no system is perfect and that we need to be ready to analyze and collect data on just what is happening in every child's life...be it in the home schooling situation, or PS systems.  It's critical to growth and making systems work.

So, I say there needs to be some sort of 'monitoring" of the situation in the home.  
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 08, 2008, 07:10:54 PM
"It they are consistently passing (although I keep hearing how they are predominatly exceeding the students in Public School) said standardized tests, that demonstrate compotence in reading, writing, math, & science, again what business is it yours if they're being taught differently, than how you'd teach them."

Well, as I see it, unfortunately, you are right there, Sirs.......we don't even teach science anymore. For now, that is.

But, I believe as I just posted---at length, redundantly so..( I was a bit wordy)..ha!!

 There are values issues as my bottom line in my  thought here.

There is no quick fix, and there are probably more problems currently in the PS system, but I ask why NOT monitor what is going on in the home schooling situation?

again, That's what I thought I was responding to in XOs post.

Cynthia
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Universe Prince on March 08, 2008, 08:02:18 PM

UP,

You assume that the unsupervised parent is teaching high quality standards.


No, I do not. And I don't know why you think I would.


What if the parent decides to teach the child a radically religious-based curriculum?


Okay, what if he does? If the child can read and write, perform arithmetic, et cetera, what if the parent teaches the child something scientifically wrong, like intelligent design? Even if the child decides to study biology later in life, there is no reason to think he won't be able to cope.


What if the parent gives a narrow view of the world through the process of a comfortable "schooling at home"...a view that is biased and prejudicial.


As opposed to the unbiased view of the world public school offers? You must be kidding.


 Sure, there are extreme examples of white Supremacists who decide to teach their children to hate the government, or to hate- period. A slippery slope? Freedom to teach without standards that are universal to a given society is dangerous.


No, the slippery slope is deciding for everyone else what will be the universal standards to which they must conform.


If, say, a parent thinks it is ok to hit a child for the sake of discipline with the attitude that a "hit"  is a hit is a hit...a pat on the butt is a pat on the butt ...unless, of course that pat comes after the parent has consumed a six pack or two? Then the hit falls into a possible abuse. Slippery slope.


If a government decides that homeschooling children is abusing children, is that a slippery slope to the government deciding that giving religious instruction to children is child abuse?


Parents who home school must be held to high and consistent standards. ....and someone has to monitor the parent's methods of teaching, not to mention curriculum.


Why? Shouldn't the parent be left able to respond to the child's learning needs and decide for himself how best to teach the child? If the child is learning, isn't that what matters? If the child is learning, and perhaps learning well, but the parent doesn't use the same teaching methods used at the local public school, do you really think the child will benefit by someone forcing the parent to stop using those methods or to surrender the child to public school?


Who really knows what goes on behind closed doors.


What business is it of yours? Unless there is actual child abuse, why should you get to disregard someone else's privacy?


Then again, should we be allowed to make home visits on parents who home school, and decide to put them on the evening news if they do not hold up to such high standards?


No, and no.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Universe Prince on March 08, 2008, 08:04:54 PM

So, are you saying that a good education comes down to a test?


Aren't you saying good education comes down to using only approved teaching methods? Anyway, just exactly how do you expect to find out what a child has learned without a test?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Universe Prince on March 08, 2008, 08:07:32 PM

Precisely.  In fact, Marx says pretty much exactly that in that quote.


I am now waiting for JS to show up and explain that isn't what Marx really meant.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 08, 2008, 10:41:11 PM
As opposed to the unbiased view of the world public school offers?

Explain this, please.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 08, 2008, 10:51:24 PM

So, are you saying that a good education comes down to a test?


Aren't you saying good education comes down to using only approved teaching methods? Anyway, just exactly how do you expect to find out what a child has learned without a test?

Yes, we need to have consistent and quality teaching methods. Why not?
Tests reflect just a part of a child's knowledge.
There is so much more to education than testing.
There is observation of the child's key abilities, interests, developmental stages of learning.

Tests are important. Of course..but I am saying that they are not the only thing we use to assess a child's abilities.

 Once again, what is the goal? To have aced a test, or to have made the grade through hard work, quality do-overs in life through practice after failure, and good old determination.....which are important pieces of the puzzle for a child whether that child has passed or not passed a test(s).

A+ kids...can fail in life...as D- kids can change a society.

Social skills are important, too.
Home schooling fail to measure up in that way, imo...

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 08, 2008, 10:55:32 PM
Bethany was a member during the early days of PIC and 3DHS.

She has since graduated from The University of Chicago Law School and is an entertainment lawyer in LA.

http://www.post41.com/members/homeschool.htm

Post41 was a collection of best posts and debates and articles submitted by members back in the day.
Some of the old members might enjoy reminiscing and the new members can see what we are capable of.

The Homeschool Experience

By Bethany Hollister

 

            What is homeschooling like?  I get asked that question a lot; probably many of the people reading this now are also wondering.  It?s always easy to give a laundry list of the basic benefits ? direct parental control, versatility, ease of scheduling ? and potential drawbacks ? lack of social interaction, fewer extracurricular activities, little to no accreditation.  But do these things really tell you anything about homeschooling?  For the cynic, perhaps all that matters are the cold, hard statistics of homeschooling.  What?s there, what?s tangible, what I can plainly see ? these are important things, to be sure, but they don?t get to the real heart of the issue.  The important question is not one of grades or social maturity.  The important question is what is right for your child.  Will homeschooling work for you?  I can?t answer that question.  I can, however, tell you what homeschooling was like for me.  I?ve been asked many times if I wish I had attended public school.  I?ve often wondered that myself.  How well did homeschooling work for me?  As I share some of my thoughts and reflections on my homeschool experience, I hope that they may prove relevant ? or at least interesting ? to those curious about homeschooling.

 

            I remember my first ?classroom.?  It was in the living room of our house in Selmer, Tennessee.  I had a little desk and chair that sat in front of the window, right next to the piano.  My mom sat across from me on the couch and taught me reading and writing, mathematics and science, social studies and history.  My first days of school were short and to the point; we went through my lesson for the day and then I was free to play with my brother and sister or my best friend, who spent afternoons with her grandparents (our next-door neighbors).  Soon my brother, Justin, and my sister, Noelle, joined the ranks of homeschooled children.  Imagine if you will being solely responsible for the concurrent education of three children under the age of ten, each in a different grade, and you may have a picture of what my mom must have gone through.  Still, she persevered and, fortunately for her, Justin and I (and soon afterwards, Noelle) were able to work through most of our school without her help.

 

            Justin and Noelle and I fought plenty, as all siblings do.  But we also developed a close relationship (they would deny this if ever asked).  Since there were a number of days when we would finish school before the rest of the neighborhood was let out, the only friends we had around were each other.  We used to make up all kinds of spy games and dress up in ridiculous clothes and build spaceships out of pillows in our living room.  We always hung out together; we were a team.  We still get along well today (though there were some trying days in our earlier teen years) and, while we don?t do everything together, we always find time to share a meal out or see a movie together.

 

            There was still a lot of room for other friends, though.  When we moved to Colorado Springs, the neighborhood kids were friendly and eager to meet the new people.  There were also friends from church, of course.  In middle school, I suffered some brutal teasing and rejection at the hands of some of the ?nice? church kids.  I guess that made up for missing out on all the ?fun? things kids say about each other in public school.  Later on, another local church began offering part-time classes to homeschooling families (such supplemental schools have been rapidly gaining popularity across the country in recent years).  Through Grace Academy, I was able to take speech, drama, chemistry, Spanish, biology, PE and other classes I may have otherwise missed out on in junior high and high school.  These part-time classes also provided a great place to make new friends ? they even had roughly the same schedule as I did, since we were all homeschooled.  This gave my siblings and me a chance to participate in many of the traditional public school activities home schoolers usually miss out on.  We had school plays, choir performances, art competitions and, of course, ruthless scholastic competition between classmates.

 

            Of course, Grace Academy wasn?t the only place we found to do other things.  When we were younger we took horseback riding, swimming and piano lessons.  We were involved with some local homeschooling groups, like the drama group we performed a play with.  And there were always cultural activities to participate in ? local museums, library book clubs, or whatever else we could find.  Fortunately for me, my parents were incisive enough to recognize that being homeschooled doesn?t mean limiting one?s education to what can be learned from any particular curriculum.

 

            Eventually the day came when my homeschooling ended.  Actually, it came a bit early.  I finished high school a couple of months before my seventeenth birthday ? about a year early by the traditional school calendar.  I made the decision toward the end of my sophomore year to skip my last year of high school and go straight to college.  I only needed about three more credits, so I combined my junior and senior years into one.  I performed well on both the SAT and ACT and was accepted into the local University of Colorado campus.  There were times when I wanted to apply to a better school, but my parents were adamant that I stay at home ? after all, I was only seventeen, and just barely that.  So, in the fall of 1998, I began my studies at the University of Colorado at Colorado Springs.

 

            My freshman year was, admittedly, intimidating.  I didn?t really know anyone at the school and had heard how much more difficult college is than high school.  I had nightmares about missing the first day of class or of forgetting to turn in an important homework assignment.  I soon found out, though, that college really wasn?t that tough.  That?s not to say that keeping my grades up was easy, but it was doable.  I worried at first that maybe I hadn?t been sufficiently prepared; I?d heard some express doubt as to the adequacy of homeschooling in college preparation.  As I look back, though, I can?t detect any deficiencies in my primary and secondary education.  If anything, I think homeschooling may be part of the reason I?ve done well in college ? throughout middle school and high school I was solely responsible for the vast majority of my schoolwork.  College didn?t seem to be so terribly different from high school, except that I attended a lecture every week and my papers were longer.

 

            I?m now beginning my senior year of college.  My class standing is somewhere in the top three percent at my school and I?m student body co-executive.  I?ve participated in various clubs, completed a political internship and volunteered with church and community organizations.  Sometimes I wonder how things would have been different if I?d gone to public school.  Maybe I could have served on student council or participated in sports.  Perhaps I could have earned awards and honors.  Quite possibly, I would have had more opportunities for advancement and scholastic achievement.  But as I think about it, I realize that none of that really matters.  I?m happy with my life and, for better or worse, homeschooling made me who I am.  Maybe I would have more to be proud of if I?d had the opportunities and experiences public school provides.  Maybe not.  The simple fact is that homeschooling worked for me, as it has worked for countless other young men and women across the country.  Would I change anything about my past?  No.  I?m too excited about my future.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 08, 2008, 10:58:21 PM
what if the parent teaches the child something scientifically wrong, like intelligent design? Even if the child decides to study biology later in life, there is no reason to think he won't be able to cope.


I am saying what if the parent teaches a child something like fundamental hatred of another person based on faith.

Coping....is not the point. Directly being taught something is based on one's parental views...does not always give the child a chance to think for themselves.....The genetic code is too close for a parent to objectively teach a child.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 08, 2008, 11:08:19 PM
Hey, that is neat, Bt. A little bit before my time..but I remember hearing about the Post 41.

There are going to be successes and failures in any system...

So, now are we to advocate home schooling all of our children based on her success story?
The odds are that there are going to be fabulous parenting skills, and even not so good parenting skills in the mix.....and children learn in spite of us, too, remember.
 

One has to wonder about the lawyers and doctors and where they attended primary school 30-40 years ago.

Must have been at home.

again...no system is perfect.

Congratulations to Bethany
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 08, 2008, 11:20:24 PM
Quote
So, now are we to advocate home schooling all of our children based on her success story?

I think the debate revolves around choice. The public school system seems to be more concerned with maintaining their monopoly than meeting the challenge of their competition, whether it be private schools, parochial schools, charter schools or home schools.

And that is a shame.



Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 08, 2008, 11:40:23 PM
Quote
So, now are we to advocate home schooling all of our children based on her success story?

I think the debate revolves around choice. The public school system seems to be more concerned with maintaining their monopoly than meeting the challenge of their competition, whether it be private schools, parochial schools, charter schools or home schools.

And that is a shame.









So, is there truth to the argument that the PS system is slowly becoming a full blown socialist institution?
Maintaining their monopoly? Seems that the public schools operate out of a warehouse on that board game.

Ok, explain what is the perfect system for children, BT.
I am listening.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 09, 2008, 12:01:05 AM
I think that there is truth to the statement that public schools do not want to be held accountable to the same standards they require of the competition.

Homeschoolers outperform public schools on standardized tests. Public schools says standardized testing is unfair.

Homeschoolers are now in California required to be taught by credentialed teachers. Public schools issue emergency credentials when needed. Homeschool teachers aren't given that option.

There is no perfect system. To design and enforce a one size fits all template is folly.



Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: fatman on March 09, 2008, 12:03:06 AM
Thanks for that trip down memory lane BT.  I joined in either late 2001 or early 2002, mirstnkim talked me into it.  So many names there that aren't around anymore, where'd they all go?  I remember chat with kim, missus, you and brass, others would pop in once in awhile.  I left for a year or two after I got into it with Hoot, but it wasn't just Hoot, I had a lot going on in my life.  Whatever happened to BSB?

It's amazing to realize that it's been 7 years now, truly.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 09, 2008, 12:28:01 AM
Thanks for that trip down memory lane BT.  I joined in either late 2001 or early 2002, mirstnkim talked me into it.  So many names there that aren't around anymore, where'd they all go?  I remember chat with kim, missus, you and brass, others would pop in once in awhile.  I left for a year or two after I got into it with Hoot, but it wasn't just Hoot, I had a lot going on in my life.  Whatever happened to BSB?

It's amazing to realize that it's been 7 years now, truly.

BSB is married and happily so, from what I know.
He is a good old vet. . .
Boston's blue blood best.

Blessings to David
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 09, 2008, 12:29:25 AM
Homeschoolers outperform public schools on standardized tests.


So, saying so makes it true, BT?

Prove that, please.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 09, 2008, 12:34:13 AM
http://debategate.com/new3dhs/index.php?topic=5682.msg55400#msg55400
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 09, 2008, 12:38:17 AM
http://debategate.com/new3dhs/index.php?topic=5682.msg55400#msg55400

I need more, BT.

Not enough data for proof. 

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Stray Pooch on March 09, 2008, 12:48:13 AM
http://www.post41.com/members/homeschool.htm

This is truly spooky.  I was showing my wife some of my old parodies on amiright and I mentioned Post41.com.  I explained what it was and took her over to look at my old parodies from PIC.  I saw this article and was half-tempted to repost it here in this topic.  I come back here a few hours later and here it is.  Weird stuff.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 09, 2008, 12:56:21 AM
http://debategate.com/new3dhs/index.php?topic=5682.msg55400#msg55400

I need more, BT.

Not enough data for proof. 



http://www.post-gazette.com/regionstate/20000501homeschool5.asp

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2007/06/11/EDGKOP3DE31.DTL

http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.asp


Your turn.

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 09, 2008, 01:45:08 AM
No, still not enough, BT.

You haven't proven public education is not good enough.

You can post all the data you find, I will probably be able to find data that proves that home schooling isn't all it's cracked up to be...or the country would be teaching in the dens and living rooms in every neighborhood.

There are solid public schools in this country, and solid and well trained teachers.

There is so much data out there....I suppose I could find such for my "turn".









Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 09, 2008, 01:55:10 AM
Quote
You haven't proven public education is not good enough.

I believe i said homeschoolers on average outperform public school students. I provided sources which corroborated my assertion.

Perhaps if you have data that proves different, you can provide it.





Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 09, 2008, 03:02:11 AM
Quote
You haven't proven public education is not good enough.

I believe i said homeschoolers on average outperform public school students. I provided sources which corroborated my assertion.

Perhaps if you have data that proves different, you can provide it.

I'll do my best, Bt..but I don't believe your data sources to be the precise and final answer.  There are so many studies on so many elements in the field of education.

 Out perform ps students...in all areas? Ok, if you say so...then why are we not setting up home schooling venues right and left?

Do you really believe that the public schools are that bad?

You seem to believe that the scores are evidence. There are ways around making grades shine, BT.
But, if that data proves your point...I am happy for you.
 







I'll do my best, Bt..but I don't believe your data sources to be the precise and final answer.  There are so many studies on so many elements in the field of education.

 Out perform ps students...in all areas? Ok, if you say so...then why are we not setting up home schooling venues right and left?

Do you really believe that the public schools are that bad?

You seem to believe that the scores are evidence. There are ways around making grades shine, BT.
But, if that data proves your point...I am happy for you.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 09, 2008, 03:26:13 AM
Quote
I'll do my best, Bt..but I don't believe your data sources to be the precise and final answer.  There are so many studies on so many elements in the field of education.

Perhaps it would be helpful if you focus on data and studies that refute the claim. That is the test at hand.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Universe Prince on March 09, 2008, 07:25:42 AM

As opposed to the unbiased view of the world public school offers?

Explain this, please.


Do you think public school teachers have no bias? Do you think textbooks don't have bias? I remember being taught in school that Abraham Lincoln was this great man who was so burdened with his task to free the slaves. Turns out he was not all that concerned with freeing anybody, and he did things like suspend habeas corpus and throw dissenters, not excluding members of the press, into jail. I was taught in school that Franklin Roosevelt saved the country from the Great Depression and helped the country during the time of war. Turns out that Roosevelt's policies were what made the Depression drag on for more than a decade and possibly, just possibly, the man worked to manipulate events to get the U.S. into war. So the cynic in me thinks your concern about bias is entirely one sided and possibly myopic.


Yes, we need to have consistent and quality teaching methods. Why not?


Clever, but not so fast. Consistent and quality teaching methods are necessarily the same as approved methods.


Tests reflect just a part of a child's knowledge.


Of course, but, that isn't the question. The question is: just exactly how do you expect to find out what a child has learned without a test?


There is so much more to education than testing.
There is observation of the child's key abilities, interests, developmental stages of learning.


Yeah. Are you suggesting parents are somehow unable pay attention to these things? Seems to me parents are well suited and situated to pay attention to these things.


Once again, what is the goal? To have aced a test, or to have made the grade through hard work, quality do-overs in life through practice after failure, and good old determination.....which are important pieces of the puzzle for a child whether that child has passed or not passed a test(s).


I thought the goal was to educate the children. Anyway, all these hard life lessons you're talking about, what prevents a child from acquiring that through homeschooling? So far you haven't mentioned anything that cannot be achieved by homeschooling.


A+ kids...can fail in life...as D- kids can change a society.


Indeed. D- children generally according to public school standards, which indicates to me that the public schools were not meeting the educational needs of those people as children. So maybe public school isn't always the best answer?


Social skills are important, too.
Home schooling fail to measure up in that way, imo...


Opponents of homeschooling often say that, but I have yet to see any evidence that all or even most homeschooled children grow up without social skills.


I am saying what if the parent teaches a child something like fundamental hatred of another person based on faith.


Seems to me that goes on even without homeschooling. As best I can tell, your objection amounts to asking what if something bad happens. Bad things happen. Some people are racists. That some people are racists is a really bad reason to object to all homeschooling. Some public school teachers have had sexual relations with students. Bad things happen, but I notice public schools are still operating.


Directly being taught something is based on one's parental views...does not always give the child a chance to think for themselves.....


You mean they might be taught something they later find out isn't so? Like my previous example of Lincoln and FDR? I'm just to cynical about this to accept your version of public school as some great institution of critical thinking. I just don't see the evidence. I'm glad you're concerned about it, but again, there is no reason to assume that homeschooling is devoid of critical thinking lessons. Indeed, the existence of homeschooling is a result of people daring to question the public school system and to find what they believe is a better way. Thinking outside the box, as the saying goes.


The genetic code is too close for a parent to objectively teach a child.


Ah. Now we come to the quick. The parent is not qualified to teach because the parent is the parent. Forgive my language, but that is just poppycock.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Universe Prince on March 09, 2008, 07:35:23 AM

So, now are we to advocate home schooling all of our children based on her success story?



explain what is the perfect system for children


No one is arguing that we do away with public schools. But sometimes public schooling simply isn't the best answer for a child's education.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 09, 2008, 12:52:57 PM
Of course, but, that isn't the question. The question is: just exactly how do you expect to find out what a child has learned without a test?

Yep....You're right. I really didn't mean to imply that tests are not viable ways to find data and drive instruction based on the data.

and...yes Poppycock on that genetic issue....I just threw that one out there....Now that I have "banked" my hour of sleep....
I'll try to counter .

I am looking into it now...and I might have to conceded on BT's original point. But, I do have some thoughts on this issue.

BRB
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 09, 2008, 02:09:47 PM
Well in real life the law is never called on to deal with "average" children - - it deals with real kids with real names and decides if Johnny is getting the education he deserves or not.

Ok, so I am skipping a spring hour and re reading the entire thread...now that I have time and energy. I was just too late for me last night....so I will begin again..

First off.....I am in agreement with MT on some points, here.

Where are the "average" or even "below average" child's educational needs being met in all of this? Those parents who can afford to be educated or trained and certified to teach in the comfort of home by  a reasonably or very well educated parent, are bound to succeed. But, does that help the nation of children as a whole? PErhaps a few, sure.

If I had the luxury of teaching one or two children at a time, of course test scores would rise through the roof!!( god, I can only wish for such a thing, I could bring back the full load of content and curriculum that is being ripped out of the ps system these days). I sometimes feel the desire to simply jump the PS ship for such luxuries, but I don't and can't let those kids down. I see their faces every day. Perhaps that's why I am in this debate for the long haul.

 How can we provide decent home schooling for THOSE kids across this nation?

Sure, I realize that the scores are higher overall, after reading BT's links and a few of my own here this morning. . I'll give you that BT.

But, I still feel that tests are not the end all of how to evaluate a child. I feel that we need to put effort and money and support back into the Public School system instead of running home to mama to learn.
My goodness, every home would become a one dwelling school house?
When I read MT's post, I was imagining the entire nation supporting the PS system. What a dream that would be. Why kick a "horse" when he's down. Why are people so quick to prove that the school systems don't make the grade.....in order to prove a political point and win and argument? Sure, your original argument was about the test scores. Period. I see the difference, but I also see that the comparison isn't fair nor is it the answer to a very critical problem in this country.
There are little lives that deserve better.

I work in a public school in an inner city type environment. I want very much to see success in the PS system. Yes, I do agree that there have to be choices for parents, and I am not against competition, but that's a fine line to cross at this stage of the game. Who wouldn't want their child to receive the best that's out there? I strongly believe that a lot of unrecognized teachers are well trained and offer the best for children in many schools in this nation...but, the system is weak, and a bit broken, no doubt about it. I see it daily. So, instead of abandoning the system in favor of going home to learn...why not put effort into fixing the problem?

During the past three weeks our kids have been  taking the Standardized tests.(I teach 3rd grade).
The kids are not doing well. I'll be honest.  They are struggling. WHY? Because we are in the midst of throwing out the baby with the bathwater in this nation. We have been told to teach apples and test oranges. That's not the way it used to be. In some ways the schools of the past were fine..never broken compared to today.
And, yes, I do believe it to be the result of punitive reactionary responses from the government agains teachers and systems ....in order to find a quick fix path to success.
 There is really very little  support or training to make this "act" a viable solution. There is no effort to reduce class sizes....
 
 Who's running this ship? Not educators for the most part as XO has stated.  I believe that to be the reason  we are in this mess.....But, be sure to apply pressure instead of support for the teachers in order to bring those scores UP UP UP But, pressure points break, and in the end the child's world is affected and I AGREE HERE WITH MT....they are abused, somewhat.





These are only a few quotes from articles I picked up this morning while googling the issue but I let the issue rest here.

Standardized tests are just one measure of how your child is doing at school. They are not perfect measures of what children can or cannot do. Standardized tests are designed to give a common measure of students' performance. They do help parents, teachers, and schools see how an individual student performs in comparison to other students in the same class, the school, the state, or the nation.
Some children become skilled test takers much faster than others do. Much of the secret lies in knowing how to prepare for tests. It is very important to understand that standardized tests are just one measure of how your child is doing at school
Achievement tests cannot possibly measure everything that students learn and are not a perfect measure of what individual students can or cannot do




Parents: Do Your Homework
Standardized testing -- two simple words that often strike fear for children, teachers, and parents alike. Many states use proficiency testing as a way to assess children and evaluate teachers. In some states, a low score on a proficiency exam is grounds for holding your child back. Whatever the policies are in your state, your job is to prepare your young learner for the testing challenge.


http://school.familyeducation.com/educational-testing/teaching-methods/37502.html?detoured=1


Of course it's the parent's job to help. Of course it's the parents job to prepare. TO fix the problem is to improve the state and the issue of aligning of tests and curriculum.
I feel we will see possibilities for improvement.
We are scattering to the winds currently. I say don't kick us when we are already down. Help fix a broken system that can work for those who don't have the choices.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 09, 2008, 02:21:55 PM
We are scattering to the winds currently. I say don't kick us when we are already down. Help fix a broken system that can work for those who don't have the choices.

Public schools are already funded at a higher rate than any other form of schooling. It's time (possibly past time) for them to start competing for that higher level of funding.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 09, 2008, 02:32:05 PM
We are scattering to the winds currently. I say don't kick us when we are already down. Help fix a broken system that can work for those who don't have the choices.

Public schools are already funded at a higher rate than any other form of schooling. It's time (possibly past time) for them to start competing for that higher level of funding.

Not in our state they are not funded at such a "higher rate", Ami. we test areas we can't even teach because of the mandates from the state. We are now mandated to teach scripted programs in order to make sure the kids can read. But, the tests only analyze one element of the child's life; Reading..but reading; phonics; phonemic awareness, sans the focus on content and knowledge....it's not working out for the kids in the end. . and like I said, that wasn't the case even ten years ago. . .How can one compete on the playing field when one side is really and truly disabled.

I think, in time, Ami, your point will prove well taken and correct. But, not all the schools are there yet. and Ironically, I believe the NCLB act to be a good thing, if it can irons out the wrinkles that are clearly seen by people like myself.

Tests apples and teach apples.

We used to do just that.

I suppose itt's a critical mass time in this country....and in such case, we have to allow for the tide to roll with the ebbing.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 09, 2008, 02:58:58 PM
The system is indeed at critical mass. What the judges decision achieved was to perpetuate the monopoly of state run public education.

When they say that parents must be certified to teach homeschool they took away equal protection rights.

The state can issue emergency credentials for it's own uncertified teachers.

Who will issue such emergency credentials to the home school market?

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 09, 2008, 03:09:43 PM
Not in our state they are not funded at such a "higher rate", Ami.

New Mexico spends about $7,600 per pupil. Most private schools budget quite a bit less than this - they average about $3,500. Only the top end private schools for the children of the rich budget in the vicinity of $10,000 for each student, and many public school systems are approaching this level of budgeting, and several have surpassed it already (NY and CA).

Tests apples and teach apples.

It's up to the state to decide what to test. I think your problems lie with your state administrators. States who feel that the sciences are part of a good education will test sciences as well, such as Minnesota and North Carolina. The goal of NCLB, however, remains making sure that all students learn the "three Rs" - readin' ritin' and rithmatic. Too many functionally illiterate children were graduating from public high schools for too many years.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 09, 2008, 03:23:37 PM
When they say that parents must be certified to teach homeschool they took away equal protection rights.


Why not be certified? Isn't that important?

The state can issue emergency credentials for it's own uncertified teachers.


 
Frankly, the gov. mandates in the opposite direction. . . teachers who are already highly qualified are asked to jump through hoops in order to show a qualification for the satisfaction of the NCLB act. . . I have to say that the government has issued such mandates a heck of a lot more than they have issued such emergence credentials.

Who will issue such emergency credentials to the home school market?


Who will monitor the teachers in teh home schooling market, is my question.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 09, 2008, 03:40:50 PM
Not in our state they are not funded at such a "higher rate", Ami.

New Mexico spends about $7,600 per pupil. Most private schools budget quite a bit less than this - they average about $3,500. Only the top end private schools for the children of the rich budget in the vicinity of $10,000 for each student, and many public school systems are approaching this level of budgeting, and several have surpassed it already (NY and CA).


Tests apples and teach apples.

It's up to the state to decide what to test. I think your problems lie with your state administrators. States who feel that the sciences are part of a good education will test sciences as well, such as Minnesota and North Carolina. The goal of NCLB, however, remains making sure that all students learn the "three Rs" - readin' ritin' and rithmatic. Too many functionally illiterate children were graduating from public high schools for too many years.

Ok, well, perhaps that is true on paper, but in so many ways we don't seem to reap from such  funding, as I see it. We are poor as crap. The schools are forced to rally to pass bond issues in order to fix old and dilapidated buildings....where's the money for all the problems we face? It sure doesn't appear to be a rich source here in our state...
I shot from the hip on that one, Ami....

So, then again maybe we  need more funding. I am not savvy to that end of the details, But thanks, Ami for your feedback. 

As for your second point.

We are mandated by district to teach specific reading and math "scripted programs" in order to help kids improve..sure, that's ok. I agree with it, actually and for the very reasons you've stated.

Not to mention that kids need to be able to read by the end of third grade. As studies have shown ---if kids can't read by then, there is the possibility of a higher drop out rate.
But, then we need to assess what we teach!! The standardized tests assess the areas of the curriculum things NEVER even covered in these quality research based scripted programs. 

You are right on...it is indeed the state administrators who have to catch up, imo.

But, then in the meantime, our kids struggle and feel like crap and so do we...and ----AND..we are put on a sort of probationary action for not measuring up..thus my frustration.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 09, 2008, 04:39:33 PM
Ok, well, perhaps that is true on paper, but in so many ways we don't seem to reap from such  funding, as I see it. We are poor as crap. The schools are forced to rally to pass bond issues in order to fix old and dilapidated buildings....where's the money for all the problems we face? It sure doesn't appear to be a rich source here in our state...

The private schools have the same issues regarding buildings and other problems, and they handle it with a smaller budget.

Personally, I see the administration failing in this regard. In the Baltimore school system, there was about 1 administration person for every 2 teachers. That ratio is ridiculous. In the private school my daughter went to, there were 3 people in the administration for a school with over 20 teachers, and one of those also taught an advanced math class during one period.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 09, 2008, 05:09:55 PM
Quote
Who will monitor the teachers in the home schooling market, is my question.

The standardized tests will set benchmarks. And that will in fact monitor the teachers as well as the home school students.

Unfortunately many in the Public School system feel that it is insulting to use standardized testing to monitor themselves.

Personally credentialing must be a joke because apparently the credentialed teachers in the public schools fear head to head competition from the non credentialed teachers in the home school market.



Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on March 09, 2008, 06:07:43 PM
Personally credentialing must be a joke because apparently the credentialed teachers in the public schools fear head to head competition from the non credentialed teachers in the home school market.

===================================
What evidence is there of this fear? Why do you say this is apparent?
How are the non credentialed teachers evaluated?

If you were a semi truck driver, and suddenly the boss came along and said :"I am going to replace some or all of you guys with guys who will work for less and have never driven a truck", what would your thoughts be?]

The same would be true for a doctor, a lawyer, a pharmacist, a stockbroker. So please.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 09, 2008, 07:02:55 PM
Quote
What evidence is there of this fear? Why do you say this is apparent?

Because all i have read in this forum is that holding teachers accountable for test scores is punitive, that it isn't fair, that teachers are so afraid of losing their jobs they teach to the test and modify the curriculum to game the system.

I haven't seen any reports of this happening in private, parochial or home schools. Yet theses schools  seem to be able to beat the public schools in head to head competition even though public schools are usually better funded and the administrative staff is double that of non state run schools.

The issue isn't credentials. That is just gatekeeping and protectionism.

The issue is who can teach and who can't. And yes, standardized testing is a good way to measure those skills. Isn't that the way the chosen are credentialed?

 

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on March 09, 2008, 07:19:39 PM
I haven't seen any reports of this happening in private, parochial or home schools. Yet theses schools  seem to be able to beat the public schools in head to head competition even though public schools are usually better funded and the administrative staff is double that of non state run schools.

In Florida, the FCAT is not given to anyone except public school students. So there is no comparison between the public and private schools.

Observe that even if the private schools WERE better in that their students scored higher, this is not proof of whom has the best school, because private schools get to choose who attends. They can shut out students with learning difficulties and can throw out students whose behavior is bad.

It is also true that the parents of private school students (a) have more money and (b) tend to care more about whether Junior learns. Parents who don't care will not pay extra. Wealthier parets are usually better educated than poorer ones, and that also makes a difference.

=============
The issue isn't credentials. That is just gatekeeping and protectionism.

The issue is who can teach and who can't. And yes, standardized testing is a good way to measure those skills. Isn't that the way the chosen are credentialed?

Well, no. Credentials depend on passing academic coursework, and this is not normally the result of standardized tests.

Why do right wingers oppose public schoolteachers? Because the NEA and AFT support Democrats, who in turn aee more likely to want to reward teachers for doing a good job.  Republicans are always for giving some sort of prize to the best 1 to 5% of the teachers.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 09, 2008, 07:30:52 PM
Quote
Why do right wingers oppose public schoolteachers?

I don't oppose public school teachers. My sister is one.

What i oppose is generations of public school children who can not meet minimum standards of reading, writing and arithmetic and the litany of excuses that flow from the educational establishment as to why this is so.

I certainly oppose some judge limiting choice for parents who just want the best for their kids.

I certainly oppose the hypocrisy of issuing emergency credentials to public school teachers yet failing to offer the same considerations to those who choose to take direct control and responsibility for their children's education.

I oppose the dumbing down of america. I oppose the Harrison Bergerac method of leveling the playing field.

Hope that helps clarify my position.




 

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: kimba1 on March 09, 2008, 07:50:20 PM
Opponents of homeschooling often say that, but I have yet to see any evidence that all or even most homeschooled children grow up without social skills.

I haven`1t seen any data on that also
But in my personel life I see problems
It`s not homeschool per se thats flaw it`s the parent who teaches them.
My 7yr. old nephew talks like a baby due to the fact he`as rarely is around other kids his age.
academicly he`s super bright,but he has no friends to hang around with to use his vocabulary and match up
I know he`s behind because my ex. son is the same age and he talks way more mature and he`s just a average boy .
social skills isn`t a great priority but it`s still important.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 09, 2008, 07:56:20 PM
In Florida, the FCAT is not given to anyone except public school students. So there is no comparison between the public and private schools.

According to the FCAT site (http://www.fldoe.org/) the FCAT test can be taken by anyone, including home schooled student and those in private schools.

In addition, Florida law requires annual evaluation of all home school students by the local school district to make sure the students are achieving year to year goals. Private schools are required to be accredited by an approved accreditation agency in Florida. Part of the accreditation process involves standardized tests.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 09, 2008, 07:58:40 PM
Why do right wingers oppose public schoolteachers?  

Who the hell is saying that??  I defy Xo, or anyone else to provide quotes in context that make such a claim.  The only thing this RW'er opposes is being denied the CHOICE of a parent to send their child to Public School vs being Home Schooled.  How that equates to opposing public school teachers is beyond me

Again, the supposed "pro-choice" side advocating no choice other than theirs


Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 09, 2008, 10:14:31 PM
Why do right wingers oppose public schoolteachers?  

Who the hell is saying that??  I defy Xo, or anyone else to provide quotes in context that make such a claim.  The only thing this RW'er opposies is being denied the CHOICE of a parent to send their child to Public School vs being Home Schooled.  How that equates to opposing public school teachers is beyond me

Again, the supposed "pro-choice" side advocating no choice other than theirs




BT:

The standardized tests will set benchmarks. And that will in fact monitor the teachers as well as the home school students.

 
Ok, true.  I meant monitoring more of WHAT is taught, not how it is assessed. Sure, I realize that the home school students must and do take standardized tests, and that the parents are required to make certain their children do just that each year.
I believe public education needs to be a high priority in this country. We have every right to have decent PSchools....it's part of the infrastructure just like building roads,etc.

Currently, the private school has fewer teacher student ratio, and more....as Xavier pointed out

 Observe that even if the private schools WERE better in that their students scored higher, this is not proof of whom has the best school, because private schools get to choose who attends. They can shut out students with learning difficulties and can throw out students whose behavior is bad.

It is also true that the parents of private school students (a) have more money and (b) tend to care more about whether Junior learns. Parents who don't care will not pay extra. Wealthier parents are usually better educated than poorer ones, and that also makes a difference.




My sister took her child this past week to enroll her in a very prestigious private school here in the city.  She asked pertinent questions, insisted that her child be assessed before being placed. Normally, one would think that assessing a young 5 year old would be par for the course, but the policy of this private school is any child with a late summer birthday has to attend a pre-K. hands down!! My niece is as bright as they come. The head master of the school offered to do just that....and indeed my niece does not have to attend pre-K! But, one has to wonder why would an institution who has received blue ribbon accolades, skip the assessment part of entering school? Stay on top. Don't fail.
Ok, that's their right. So be that one, but the public schools do not have near the choices and opportunities afforded the Pr.Sc.
I think that's a shame.


Unfortunately many in the Public School system feel that it is insulting to use standardized testing to monitor themselves.

No we don't. Who said that. That never even entered my mind, BT.

Currently the standardized tests do not align with the type of curriculum that we are mandated to teach in our classrooms, BT. MANDATED!!! Scripted!
I have nothing against testing. I have nothing against competition. I have nothing against being held accountable, either.
But the government is PUNITIVE.....to the point where people are stressed to the point of not being able to do a good job. That is not right!! I don't think you realize how bad it is out here in this setting. You jump tot conclusions that we must not want to compete. . .we must not want to be held accountable...NO.

We are treated like crap! Written up for not teaching one minute after a lunch bell from recess. Written up, and warned that we better NOT DO ANYTHING BUT teach RRR's. IF we are caught teaching science, our head roll. IF a kindergarten teacher, for example, is caught letting a child experience play in an early childhood classroom....heads roll! We are on notice to produce at all costs....New reporters, letters to editors, walking into  schools and escorting the entire staff out the door...but what? For not pulling blood out of a turnip. This is not right, BT> Not right! You tend to blame the teacher each and every time this thread comes up.

YOu must see first hand the injustice that is occurring out of the need to avoid the bullet of probationary action. IT is not the same thing as being professionally held accountable for being one of those bad apple teachers....ALL TEACHERS are in the process, being treated as if they are no good.
Good teachers are not rewarded in this system either. The panic and pressure are too great.
I am all for competition...but you tend to imply that teachers are afraid...across the board?? Silly.

 Teach a special needs child. Teach her/him.
But don' require that the 'special needs' child test out at the exact same level as your wealthier, smarter kids at the same grade level. That's not possible! You can argue till the cows come home that it is possible, but your Kool-aid is ripe with blueberry juice.

The issue is who can teach and who can't. And yes, standardized testing is a good way to measure those skills. Isn't that the way the chosen are credentialed?

Sure, ONE GOOD WAY....but not the only way.
Who can teach? I would agree with XO on the truck driver comparison......

In the private school my daughter went to, there were 3 people in the administration for a school with over 20 teachers, and one of those also taught an advanced math class during one period.

Ami, true.....but why can't we attempt to fix that instead of make these ridiculous new rules....mandates to cut out quality in our PS's.
Tell me ---just why do you think your daughter's school offered such a ratio.  3:20. If it were the other way around, you bet tha would never fly with the stock holders of that school--the parents.

They would be willing and capable of fixing the problem.

I guess I am saying here that I just want that same attention paid to the public schools in this country...as a right to offer good schools as part of the infrastruture.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 09, 2008, 10:39:16 PM
Tell me ---just why do you think your daughter's school offered such a ratio.  3:20. If it were the other way around, you bet tha would never fly with the stock holders of that school--the parents.

Mostly because the couldn't afford to have more administration staff. They asked for volunteers among the parents to help with office work. The public schools in that area got about three times as much money per pupil, and a large part of the difference was paid to administration staff - not to people who teach students.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 09, 2008, 11:10:31 PM
Quote
If you were a semi truck driver, and suddenly the boss came along and said :"I am going to replace some or all of you guys with guys who will work for less and have never driven a truck", what would your thoughts be?]

Your analogy is flawed. A better analogy would be the government requiring CDL's to rent a u-haul moving truck.

Public schools are funded based on average daily attendance. They (administrators, teachers and the unions that represent them) are fearful of an exodus from the public schools to more efficient and responsive alternatives.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 09, 2008, 11:11:28 PM
Quote
Currently the standardized tests do not align with the type of curriculum that we are mandated to teach in our classrooms, BT. MANDATED!!! Scripted!

Why not?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Universe Prince on March 09, 2008, 11:17:17 PM

So, instead of abandoning the system in favor of going home to learn...why not put effort into fixing the problem?


Some people are doing that, and being fought every step of the way by teachers' unions and school boards. Some folks would prefer to simply see that their child gets a better education now, rather than fight and fight for improvements that may not come for years. I don't blame them, but I wonder why you do.


In some ways the schools of the past were fine..never broken compared to today.


Schools in the past didn't have federal interference and if a child failed, he failed, none of this passing a child on to protect his self-esteem. Then again, if you back far enough, students if various grade levels were often all taught together and allowed to progress at their own speed. Which is obviously not the way things are done today. But that is really the wrong direction to look. We don't need the past. There are solutions now that can be implemented, but the battle is uphill because there is so much opposition to change.


I say don't kick us when we are already down. Help fix a broken system that can work for those who don't have the choices.


Don't tell us. Tell the teachers' unions that oppose charter schools and school vouchers and school competition. Tell the people who run the school systems that have rules in place that make firing "below average" teachers nearly impossible. Don't tell us we can fix the system. We know we can. We want to. Tell the other people to quit trying to stop us.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 09, 2008, 11:39:57 PM
Quote
If you were a semi truck driver, and suddenly the boss came along and said :"I am going to replace some or all of you guys with guys who will work for less and have never driven a truck", what would your thoughts be?]

Your analogy is flawed. A better analogy would be the government requiring CDL's to rent a u-haul moving truck.  Public schools are funded based on average daily attendance. They (administrators, teachers and the unions that represent them) are fearful of an exodus from the public schools to more efficient and responsive alternatives.  


So, would a more relevent question, taken from an earlier post be "Why do left wingers oppose home school teaching?"  Is it the competition to Public Schools, and ironically inhibiting precisely the incentive to better Public school education??
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on March 09, 2008, 11:46:11 PM
According to the FCAT site (http://www.fldoe.org/) the FCAT test can be taken by anyone, including home schooled student and those in private schools.

The operative word is CAN, not MUST.

In addition, Florida law requires annual evaluation of all home school students by the local school district to make sure the students are achieving year to year goals. Private schools are required to be accredited by an approved accreditation agency in Florida. Part of the accreditation process involves standardized tests.

There are LOTS of private schools that are not accredited and the state does nothing about it.

The only students who are required to take the FCAT are public school students.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on March 09, 2008, 11:58:45 PM
Public schools are funded based on average daily attendance. They (administrators, teachers and the unions that represent them) are fearful of an exodus from the public schools to more efficient and responsive alternatives.
=================================================================
They may oppose an exodus, but it's not because of a "more responsive and efficient alternative".

Private schools have no collective bargaining, teachers can be fired for no reason at all at any time, and make about 3/4 or less as much as public school teachers. Florida is very nearly 50th in salaries paid to public school teachers.

I did not mean to say that all right wingers are against school teachers, but they pretty much always oppose raising salaries or any sort of collective bargaining or tenure.

I recognize that public schools in FL tend to suck. My daughter attended only the last three and one half years of public school. Te rest of her education was in private schools. The local schools she would have been assigned to were pretty awful, and we faked an address so she could go to HS in North Miami rather than Miami Northwestern, because NM was where all her friends attended. Most of them were outside the NMHS district as well.

So I am all for choice. It is really not hard to send your kids anywhere you wish if you are only slightly clever. I don't consider this unethical in the least, because any way you look at it, my taxes paid for all the schools, not just the ones in my neighborhood.

I taught at Miami Jackson for about three months, as a permanent substitute. The bureaucracy and size of the school (1500+ students) and the crappy facilities made a decent education damn near impossible.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 10, 2008, 12:07:01 AM
There are LOTS of private schools that are not accredited and the state does nothing about it.

Then they are violating the law.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 10, 2008, 12:20:39 AM
Quote
Currently the standardized tests do not align with the type of curriculum that we are mandated to teach in our classrooms, BT. MANDATED!!! Scripted!

Why not?

In the effort to improve public schools and make certain that every child read at grade level by 3rd grade......[ "Reading First" schools ].....have  adopted programs that have to be research based.  I like that part of the system, I do. There's nothing wrong with research based programs. Terc Investigations math, Every Day Math, Houghton Mifflin Core Reading and Harcourt Brace Core reading programs are actually a step in a terrific direction...

BUT, these programs share an equally limiting factor.....they are coupled with strict time constraints. 120 minutes to teach a reading program daily...and we better not get caught teaching anything else or losing time on task, lest we join the union...which I am not a member of nor do I want to be!
 Teaching reading also includes time for interventions. A time set aside to help those kids who need more so then you are looking at about 30+ more minutes. After PE, Library, Recess, lunch....we have enough time to squeeze in writing, which deserves another 180 minutes sometimes for these kids in the inner school.
 AND SCIENCE? That's not even in the mix.

The tests assess ALL OF THE above curriculum areas.....

Currently,our staff and administration are at a cross roads, butting heads on that very issue. We live in fear taht we will be observed not following a script that actually anyone who is trained can teach. We are brought down to the level of stepford teachers.
We just can't live in fear of teaching, but because of the constraints we sneak in good teaching whenever we can..that's reality. That's no joke.

  I am afraid more than children are left behind.....complete subject areas and critical elements that are also on the standardized tests.

No one understands that. No one seems to hear that.

The system is very broken right now...and


yet, I have hope that someday it will iron out....but, only if someone steps up and recognized that there is a problem and that we need help. I feel like I'm livin' on top of a roof in New Orleans and Katrina is bearing down fast.

I have been trying o share that problem here on the board.

This is a reality for our district..and I am sure there are others in the nation who have similar issues.


I have taught for too long to watch children cry during a test because they have not been taught the subject matter.

Ok here's an EX: math--made up of much----algorithms, fractions, geometry, and number sense etc...they are all covered on the tests.

But because we have to follow a script in this math program and the fact that we don't teach those very specifics within the math curriculum in time for the SBA test....it makes for a late Feb. test day from hell.
 Instead....in the Investigations math program, we teach  line plots, outliers, medians, data collecting, flips and turns, how to multtiply through mathematicall thinking and exploration etc...and to cover all of these areas takes at least nine months. The tests are given in Feb!!!

I like the idea of constructivist math, don't get me wrong..in fact it's a better method of teaching math to kids imo, but it's not perfectly THERE yet, either. Place value through hands on manipulatives, problems to be solved using more than one strategy...all come in the package of constructivist method...vs...behaviorist method which is memorizatiton of facts, alghorithms ...old time arithmetic.
We are taking baby steps to improve in this nation and the media tends to highlight that we are failing without really understanding what goes on on the front line.  
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Stray Pooch on March 10, 2008, 12:38:30 AM
Quote from: Xavier Onassis
Why do right wingers oppose public schoolteachers?

We don't.  We oppose INCOMPETENT public school teachers who cannot be removed because of powerful unions.  And more importantly, we oppose MANDATED GOVERNMENT education.  We believe that private education is often better quality, in better environments, and free of government-sponsored indoctrination.  That is not to say private schools may not indoctrinate.  Indeed, Christian schools teach Christianity by definition.  It's just that we as parents get to choose which sort of values our children are taught when we get to select their schools.  We get to insure the best possible education is provided, instead of whatever the socialized education system serves up.  If we home teach, we get to be sure of what our children learn, what they are exposed to and how our children are treated.

We do not oppose schoolteachers at all.  We also do not oppose public education.  We simply oppose the government forcing us to send our kids to schools where teachers are NOT accountable and then insisting that parents must be accountable.  

I spent my whole life in a public school and my five kids attended public systems in Maryland, Georgia, Massachusetts and Virginia.  Georgia was a travesty of an education system.  I would rather have had them taught by blind monkeys.  Maryland and Massachusetts were mediocre, although a few schools in Massachusetts were pretty good.  And Massachusetts had school choice, which meant that I had three High School age kids in three different schools serving their individual needs (plus two in elementary school).  Virginia has had an excellent school system - best of the bunch actually, which surprised me.  Then again, NCLB has raised the standards so who knows how the Mass system compares now.  But with the exception of Georgia (and I was only there 6 months with two kids in elementary school) each of the systems we attended had some excellent and some useless teachers.  

What is wrong with rewarding the good teachers and dumping the bad ones?  Every other industry works that way.  And private schools and parents certainly ought to be allowed to teach our children if we so choose.  The children should be tested, to be sure, to be certain that they are learning appropriate skills for their level, but if the parents are doing the job there is no reason to force kids to go to government schools.

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 10, 2008, 12:50:10 AM
Quote from: Xavier Onassis
Why do right wingers oppose public schoolteachers?

We do not oppose schoolteachers at all.  We also do not oppose public education.  We simply oppose the government forcing us to send our kids to schools where teachers are NOT accountable and then insisting that parents must be accountable

What is wrong with rewarding the good teachers and dumping the bad ones?  Every other industry works that way.  And private schools and parents certainly ought to be allowed to teach our children if we so choose.  The children should be tested, to be sure, to be certain that they are learning appropriate skills for their level, but if the parents are doing the job there is no reason to force kids to go to government schools.

A very Plane-like concise answer. 

*golf clap*
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 10, 2008, 12:54:28 AM
"Virginia has had an excellent school system - best of the bunch actually, which surprised me. "

A few years ago, Alexandria was given the honor of being THE BEST city in the nation to raise a child.

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 10, 2008, 12:59:49 AM
Quote from: Xavier Onassis
Why do right wingers oppose public schoolteachers?

We do not oppose schoolteachers at all.  We also do not oppose public education.  We simply oppose the government forcing us to send our kids to schools where teachers are NOT accountable and then insisting that parents must be accountable

What is wrong with rewarding the good teachers and dumping the bad ones?  Every other industry works that way.  And private schools and parents certainly ought to be allowed to teach our children if we so choose.  The children should be tested, to be sure, to be certain that they are learning appropriate skills for their level, but if the parents are doing the job there is no reason to force kids to go to government schools.

A very Plane-like concise answer. 

*golf clap*

....schools where teachers are NOT accountable and then insisting that parents must be accountable




if the parents are doing the job   there is no reason to force kids to go to government schools

But, Pooch, aren't you sort of saying the same thing here ---that parents be held accountable?  ???
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: fatman on March 10, 2008, 01:02:13 AM
A very Plane-like concise answer. 

Where is Plane anyway?  I haven't seen him around of late.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 10, 2008, 01:05:29 AM
Quote
The tests are given in Feb!!!

Who sets the test date?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Stray Pooch on March 10, 2008, 01:18:33 AM
Quote from: Pooch
....schools where teachers are NOT accountable and then insisting that parents must be accountable

if the parents are doing the job   there is no reason to force kids to go to government schools

But, Pooch, aren't you sort of saying the same thing here ---that parents be held accountable?  ???
[/quote]

Actually, though I didn't express it very well, I am saying that BOTH should be held accountable.  If children in a homseschooling situation are not meeting standards, then I would accept requiring them to move into a public school for remediation.  That is the equivalent of firing the parents as teachers.  But if the kids aren't meeting the standards at school, the teachers not doing the job should be required to find new employment.  Of course, rational standards would need to be applied, since no teacher can insure that ALL children under their care will learn appropriately.  But if a teacher is consistently failing to get kids up to standard, no union should be able to save the teacher's job.  

The situation in California is now, of course, that parents have no rights at all.  That's wrong.  The situation throughout much of the nation is that teachers do not need to be competent to teach.  That's also wrong.  Parents should have the right to choose how and where their children are educated - including their own homes - provided that appropriate safeguards are in place to insure an effective education.   Those safeguards should extend into the government education system as well.  Whoever educates our children should be accountable foremost for that education.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 10, 2008, 01:24:01 AM
"We do not oppose schoolteachers at all.  We also do not oppose public education."

But, with all due respect, Pooch, you have mentioned school teachers in your post and not favorably.

The good teachers who work hard, learn new methods, provide the best for kids are thrown into the mix of "bad teachers", because of test scores. I really can not understand why the public has come to the conclusion that if a school produces low test scores, that that equates to bad teachers. Where is the accountability on the part of the system administrators!
It's difficult to teach in this day and age when the government sits back and mandates that we teach what it wants us to teach..... I suppose I could argue the same thing....government, get out of our faces!!
Mandated curriculum with time constraints which removes rich and vital curricula right out of the minds of our children.
In the end it equates to failure and then, out of the shoot....we get the blame.

I say damn the government for imposing such constraints on schools...and then bashing teachers. Leave it to mainstream media for spreading such streams of thought. It leaves out so much that is qualityt, and perpetuates negative thinking.....and is plain jus NO FAIR.

I applaud home schooling. I do. I applaud choice. I do. And I celebrate  parents who want what is best for their children.
Ironically, my posts from yesterday did seem to imply similar sentiments......that there are bound to be bad teachers in the home schooling arena. I suppose I am doing the same thing to make a point. Regulation, accountablility...no, I hate to see a system that should be offered a nation go over the falls...and  Gov. pushing the ship overboard.

I believe there are fantastic public schools in this country. I know there are.

I have yet to come in contact with such incompetence and failure as has been mentioned here on this board. I suppose in years to come there might just be a resistence against private schools or home schooling, but for now, public schools are suffering unjustly, I feel.

 It's a shame that  people never offer what can be done to improve a system for those kids who can not afford the luxury of private schooling or home schooling.

Ok tired and must hit the sack..

Springing forward to another day of facilitating and providing valuable learning possibilities for children who wouldn't get it at home, that's for sure.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Stray Pooch on March 10, 2008, 02:03:47 AM
"We do not oppose schoolteachers at all.  We also do not oppose public education."

But, with all due respect, Pooch, you have mentioned school teachers in your post and not favorably.

Where?   I have no problem with school teachers at all.  Had I not joined the Army I intended to become a music teacher myself.  I am going to have to ask you to provide an example of an unfavorable comment about schoolteachers that I made.  I would be very surprised if I have done so.  Now I have often mentioned teacher's UNIONS as a problem, and I have probably cited specific examples of INCOMPETENT teachers.  Yes, I object to both.  But schoolteachers in general I have a great deal of respect for.  A competent teacher is a valuable asset and a gifted teacher is a treasure.

The good teachers who work hard, learn new methods, provide the best for kids are thrown into the mix of "bad teachers", because of test scores. I really can not understand why the public has come to the conclusion that if a school produces low test scores, that that equates to bad teachers.

For the same reason that a losing baseball team equates to bad players.  It's probably true that in sports more emphasis is placed on dumping the manager because it is easier to do that than dump a lot of overpaid players, but the Orioles suck right now because the players suck.  Earl Weaver wouldn't have been the superstar manager he was without Brooks and Frank Robinson, Jim Palmer, Dave McNally, Mike Cuellar and that crowd.  And he couldn't take this latest bunch above third place in his best season.  (Sorry, sad baseball rant digression.)  Teachers are the front line.  If they are not able to produce results, they are pretty much accountable.  I'll grant that poor adminsitrators, conflicting requirements, ESL challenges and other such issues need to be factored into the mix, but the bottom line is that - all other things being equal - the teachers who produce should be better paid and retained and those who do not should be paid less or replaced.  Like I said, every other industry does it that way.

I say damn the government for imposing such constraints on schools...and then bashing teachers. Leave it to mainstream media for spreading such streams of thought. It leaves out so much that is qualityt, and perpetuates negative thinking.....and is plain jus NO FAIR.

What is wrong with requiring minimum achievement levels?  I agree that we need to have things like music, art and athletics in our schools to round out an education.  But the bottom line is that a person who can't read is not very likely to grasp the concept of metaphor in literature.  A person who can't do basic math is not going to be able to analyze harmony.  A person who can't grasp the basic concepts of English grammar is going to have a tough time learning a foreign language.  And in the end, as important as cultural training and other such quality of life issues are, I can't spend a lot of time appreciating the use of directional force in a painting if I am busy working twelve hour shifts at a low paying job because I lack basic literacy.

Ironically, my posts from yesterday did seem to imply similar sentiments......that there are bound to be bad teachers in the home schooling arena. I suppose I am doing the same thing to make a point.

But that is a perfectly rational point.  There ARE going to be lousy home teachers, and they should be held just as accountable as any other teacher.


I have yet to come in contact with such incompetence and failure as has been mentioned here on this board. I suppose in years to come there might just be a resistence against private schools or home schooling, but for now, public schools are suffering unjustly, I feel.

Oh, I have.  Aside from the aforementioned Georgia school (in Augusta.  They were unbelievable.) I have had some teachers in my life who had no business in the field.  My US History teacher in High School and my Algebra teacher in Jr High come to mind.  Cedar stump dumb.  Rock dumb.  Can't spell your name dumb.  But I was fortunate to have a geography teacher in the 10th Grade who was shocked to find that all the kids from our Jr High knew virtually nothing about Algebra and did double duty teaching us Algebra as we went along.  She and I never got along, because she was a no-nonsense type and I was class clown, but in retrospect she was a great teacher.  I had her again in the 12th and she pointedly asked me to transfer on the first day.  I didn't and we got along for the rest of that year.  And I had some teachers who I would love to meet today and give some kind of award.  My Jr High Biology teacher, my College English Comp instructor, my third-grade teacher who treated me like gold, not to mention a host of music teachers.  But yeah, I've seen some incredible incompetence.  It's out there.


It's a shame that  people never offer what can be done to improve a system for those kids who can not afford the luxury of private schooling or home schooling.

Well, that's what standardized testing is supposed to do.  It makes sure kids are learning what they ought to be. 

Springing forward to another day of facilitating and providing valuable learning possibilities for children who wouldn't get it at home, that's for sure.

Well, that begs the question, but since I don't know the parents involved you may be right. 
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Universe Prince on March 10, 2008, 03:52:54 AM

It's a shame that  people never offer what can be done to improve a system for those kids who can not afford the luxury of private schooling or home schooling.


Oh, but people do. All the damn time. School vouchers. School competition. Charter schools. Here, take a look at this: http://reason.tv/video/show/60.html (http://reason.tv/video/show/60.html). Or this: http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=1500338 (http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=1500338). The point being, there are plenty of people trying to change the system, improve the system, make public school better, but the system fights and fights hard to stop them. You speak of shame, but that people who care just as much as you do about helping the children and are trying to do something better for the children are denounced and fought all the time, imo, that is what is shameful.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 10, 2008, 12:53:43 PM

"Well, that begs the question, but since I don't know the parents involved you may be right."

Trust me, I am right.

But, I understand where you and UP and all are also coming from. So thanks for chance to debate. I learned a lot and had a lot of fun...surprisingly.

 :)

Ciao for now.

Cynthia

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on March 10, 2008, 01:12:02 PM
There are LOTS of private schools that are not accredited and the state does nothing about it.


Then they are violating the law.
====================================================================
Here in Miami-Dade County, there were several schools that were set up to get students, mostly good at sports, to pass their GED exams, and thereby qualify for athletic scholarships. These schools somehow managed to administer the exams themselves, and guess what? even though the classes met for only four hours twice a week at most, EVERYONE passed and got their GED's. The schools were not accredited by anyone and no FCATs were given, though every one of their students failed the FCATS and had been awarded 'attendance certificates' in lieu of diplomas.

Eventually the Miami Herald wrote a series of articles about these, and even though Fredreica Wilson, a Black State Representative perrsonally knew the director of one of these schools and protested greatly, one day, each of these schools closed their facilities, took down their signs and vanished *poof!* just like that.

No one was prosecuted, and nothing happened.

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 10, 2008, 01:31:28 PM
No one was prosecuted, and nothing happened.

Sad that your local prosecutors don't take their jobs seriously.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on March 10, 2008, 01:33:24 PM
A number of young athletes did get their GED's this way, and went on to College for their scholarships.

No graduate of these schools has ever actually graduated from any college. Some of them were actually illiterate.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: kimba1 on March 10, 2008, 01:56:47 PM
But if the kids aren't meeting the standards at school, the teachers not doing the job should be required to find new employment>

sounds like a good idea,but missing One small detail.
teachers are not disposable and cannot be replaced at a whim with or without unions.
there is a reason some teachers are not very qualified .
it`s called a teacher`s shortage.
strangely we`re not addressing how incredibly tough this job is and not once say why more people should become teachers.
AT least my governer want to add combat pay to teacher at poorer performing schools.
he got in trouble for that of course.

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on March 10, 2008, 02:35:21 PM
One truth about education is rarely mentioned. Teaching bright, motivated students is extremely satisfying, and generally pays a LOT more than teaching drudges from the trailer parks, ghettoes and hardscrabble farms of Appalachia.

A full professor at Cal Tech will teach five classes and year and get over $130K. A community College teacher will teach eight or ten classes and get maybe $60, as little as $40K at the smaller private colleges.

The worst thing that can happen to you at a highly rated university is your students will outshine you, and will ask questions you can't answer. At a poor university or college, your problems are buying a home, raising a family, and the usual problems of the declining American middle class.

There are two reasons people choose teaching: money and job satisfaction. Unfortunately the jobs that pay a lot have the highest job satisfaction as well.

Why don't they fire incompetent teachers? Because they are better than the average guy off the street, that's why, and the average guy off the street does not have the degree or the certification. The other problem is determining who is incompetent. Some teachers just don't know the subject matter. Others do not know how to teach it, others do not know how to teach it while dealing with the disabled kid, the autistic kid, the class clown, the smartass, the bully and the pest. It is not an easy chore. Most people can't do it.

What happens to good teachers? Many of them become administrators, because that pays a LOT more, and requires less frustration. No one makes secret farting noises in the principal's office. No one thows spitballs at the Vice principal.

Of course, really good teachers should be paid more and NOT turned into administrators.

In a perfect world, the best teachers should be teaching the most difficult classes, like the guy in the film "Stand and Deliver", for example. This happen so very rarely that they have to make a film of it when it does happen.

I observe that Frank McCourt, who wrote "Angela's Ashes"and "Tis", retired from the NY public schools at age 58.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: kimba1 on March 10, 2008, 03:15:56 PM
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0473389/

don`t forget ron clark

shame he had to give up teaching to develope & support his programs
but he doing serious good.
http://www.ronclark.info/About_Ron_Clark/
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 10, 2008, 11:15:31 PM
Quote
The tests are given in Feb!!!

Who sets the test date?


The State Dept.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 10, 2008, 11:33:44 PM
Quote
The State Dept.

The state school superintendent?

So your beef is with them and not NCLB.

Is that an elected position or a Bill Richardson appointee?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 11, 2008, 12:10:15 AM
"Those safeguards should extend into the government education system as well.  Whoever educates our children should be accountable foremost for that education."

Absolutely. Safeguards will always be a bottom line in this country. We can count on that.

California schools are ahead of the game when it comes to THE NCLB Reading First programs, btw, as are the Penn. schools. I have had first hand experience with several educators from boh states. ... But there is still a great deal of work to do.

I have been in touch with one particular school in Santa Maria Bonita, Calif. for the past year.....they have been very supportive in terms of assisting me with the "reading first" curriculum.   The Core Reading Program.
I have taken the initiative and welcome the opportunity to ask questions in order tto find out just how other school systems approach thenew programs. I have been impressed with the schools in Calif.  


But, then again, like I said the other day.....they, too are subjected to teaching ONLY the 3 R's.
There is a way to integrate curriculum but they are ahead of the game there too....because they have made sure such accomodations are available.


My sister's child is going to attend a private school next year and I've "come to find out" they offer not only science and social studies, but art/music and DRAMA ! The good old days of my career.
I have to admit, I would rather eat Godiva Chocolate' than a bittersweet thin mint any day of the week.  I work in a virtual Junior Mint box these days.

I applaud the home schoolers...I do. I will leave my post at that.
The little beings I teach each day come to school so damn happy to learn something new, it would make you all cry a tear.

So, for now,I 'sneak' in science and social studies, and I try to bring in art and music (I have a double minor in art ed and music ed). I play the piano and the classical guitar. I am an artist.


In the end;
These little ones will never have the luxury of Home Schooling or private schooling....

I want them to have the best..and I will do my best to provide that.

Update:
Just recently, life has changed for the little boy that I posted about last month or so....the one who is raised by "gang members'....well, his step father died of an overdose not too long ago. The S-father had just bitched at me on the phone about "homework" after months of no contact in such regard.  I remember telling the principal about the conversation and that I had some worries about the man's tone and threats against the little boy. The step dad in question actually put "R" ON THE PHONE as a humiliation tactic of sorts....(the boy who has come to trust me and feel comfortable in a school room setting)....Well, the dad" died THAT NIGHT of an drug overdose.
I was so sad for my student. He has never been better! Yes, he is sad for him mom and now that he is living with grandma, the boy is a NEW BEING. I know that is not right of me to suggest that the Step Father's life should not have been lost, but this child is at peace now. My god. What a world. God Bless the man's soul. I pray for him, I do.
 
My student, "R" has had a tougher life than anyone on this board will ever know and he's only 8!

 I am proud to have been a part of his and other children's lives all these years. I hold hope that there is a future for these kids. A chance to find their own  place in the world. So many kids return to me year after year with stories of life.


 Lives can be touched, sure...and as a teacher I have touched so many lives.

 But I want more. I want them to "get" what everyone else gets"....

I believe that UP is right. There ARE AND HAVE BEEN attempts to improve the PS system. I actually see the beginning steps now, and I suppoe we have had to take a couple of steps backward in order to move forward. I have hope. FRance and other European nations who hold a qualtiy education system have been around a lot longer that the USA...we just need time, I suppose and a willingness to meet in the middle.

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Plane on March 11, 2008, 12:18:05 AM
  A sense of mission makes up for a lot of handicaps , haveing no sense of mission would make  teaching just  assembly line work.

   What is the best way to get people to teach with a sense of mission?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on March 11, 2008, 09:51:21 AM
   What is the best way to get people to teach with a sense of mission?

Treat them like the professionals they are.

Please note that professionals set their own salaries.

Giving bonuses to the Teacher of the Year is pretty much like giving out Hero of the Soviet Union Medals or permission to buy a new refrigerator.

Do not confuse a sense of mission with being a dummy who will fall for Crackerjacks prizes, plaques and trophies.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: kimba1 on March 11, 2008, 01:37:49 PM
awhile back my company won the malcolm baldridge award and all of us got these pins that said We won

when ask what I won the only answer i could give was this pin

http://baldrige.nist.gov/

business really need to do better rewards than crackerjack prizes.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on March 11, 2008, 04:21:24 PM
I think Mao would hand out medals, and perhaps front-row tickets to performances of "The White-Haired Girl", about a young Communist who fought so hard for the Revolution that her hair turned prematurely white.

In the USSR, eventually they gave you a chance to avoid waiting a decade for a new Lada or Moskvitch sedan.

We have a variety of 'Best teacher of the Year' Awards, based on student votes, but I never bother to pass out the ballots. I refuse to compete in stupid contests like these.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 11, 2008, 10:38:14 PM
I think Mao would hand out medals, and perhaps front-row tickets to performances of "The White-Haired Girl", about a young Communist who fought so hard for the Revolution that her hair turned prematurely white.

In the USSR, eventually they gave you a chance to avoid waiting a decade for a new Lada or Moskvitch sedan.

We have a variety of 'Best teacher of the Year' Awards, based on student votes, but I never bother to pass out the ballots. I refuse to compete in stupid contests like this.


Crumbs.....throwing crumbs....Teacher Awards are a dime a dozen. I HATE those teacher of the year awards. .  . . not to mention staff member OF THE MONTH? Gezzus.

I'll tell you what.

When a child presents me a note thanking me for teaching him/her...that's all I need.

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: The_Professor on March 12, 2008, 07:46:02 PM
The kids have a right to a decent education. 

IMHO, homeschooling by a bunch of ignorant fanatics exercising parental rights amounts to child abuse.  They'll grow up dumb as shit and past a certain point there won't be any remedial education that'll work. 

I think it's unfortunate that some parents are good teachers and some aren't, but the state can't afford to get into evaluations which are necessarily subjective to some degree.  Best solution is to outlaw all religious, ethnic and homeschooling, and mandate that every kid without exception attend a regular school week in a regular school year at his neighborhood public school.  If the parents want to supplement their kids' education, they can do it at home, after school hours.

Unadulterated feldercarb!

I would move to New Zealand if this were to occur. By your definition, I AM an "ignorant fanatic" and yet my homeschooled daughter earned a 1400 on her SAT and is also well-socialized. If a parent can do the job, by objective standards, then they should be allowed to do so. Either apply the same criteria or don't get in to this arena, I would say.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: kimba1 on March 12, 2008, 08:12:06 PM
my main problem with public school is cost
in most if not all the news the schools say thier near or out of money and the government is the villian for cutting budget.
if you notice nobody except maybe arnold has said too much money has gone to the school .but none is accounted for.

I see alot of money going in but very things being bought for the kids.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: kimba1 on March 14, 2008, 02:04:06 PM
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/03/14/MN6UVJBJH.DTL

and why are we discouraging school alternatives?

that judge maybe in trouble now
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on March 15, 2008, 10:07:59 PM
I see alot of money going in but very things being bought for the kids.

====================================================
The money builds schools and maintains them and pays the electricity.
It pays for the schoolbooks and computers and a lot more stuff.
What exactly do you expect to see bought for the kids?
Why would you assume that you would see evidence of it unless you are inside the schools?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 15, 2008, 10:37:33 PM
"So your beef is with them and not NCLB."

Bt, with all due respect...you don't listen.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 15, 2008, 11:01:55 PM
Quote
Bt, with all due respect...you don't listen.

Cynthia, with all due respect.... I do listen.

For example i distinctly "heard" you state that administering the test in february was idiocy.

That testing for the whole curriculum so early in the year was a setup for failure.

So i dug a bit.

Georgia has their tests in April.

Same with California.

NCLB declares that the states design and implement the tests.

Which means in your case, NM is responsible for your dissatisfaction.

Did i "mishear" you?


Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: kimba1 on March 15, 2008, 11:20:57 PM
The money builds schools and maintains them and pays the electricity.
It pays for the schoolbooks and computers and a lot more stuff.
What exactly do you expect to see bought for the kids?
Why would you assume that you would see evidence of it unless you are inside the schools?

uhm last year at least 3 schools shutdown and several other has barely useable bathrooms and most schools are known to have outdated books.
so I`m pretty sure my statement that the money is not accounted for still stands
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 15, 2008, 11:55:04 PM
Quote
Bt, with all due respect...you don't listen.

Cynthia, with all due respect.... I do listen.

For example i distinctly "heard" you state that administering the test in february was idiocy.

That testing for the whole curriculum so early in the year was a setup for failure.

So i dug a bit.

Georgia has their tests in April.

Same with California.

NCLB declares that the states design and implement the tests.

Which means in your case, NM is responsible for your dissatisfaction.

Did i "mishear" you?




Bt,No, you haven't been reading the entire thread of my argument. I have told you that I take issue with NCLB and  that the "act" is at the heart of what is harming so many public school children in this country. The punitive actions are based on absolute unrealistic expectations, but you refuse to hear that. You interpret those actions to be the natural response to bad teaching, and bad teachers.....in total. No. Not true. Find out more. I am spent here trying to tell you about the expectations that are unreasonable.

I have seen the difference in the classroom and you refuse to listen to what is happening.  There are just too many problems with the "act".

Testing is part of any school system...home schooling included, of course. That goes without saying. I am not necessarily arguing with that. I am arguing with you on the point that testing alone is not a complete measure of a good education. Not all.....I am not saying testing or assessments are worthless. There is more to a child than a test.

I was wrong about the fact that homeschooling produces higher scores than the PS system of today. I was in the dark ages and I disagree with MT on that now. There is no abuse if the parents are qualified and do a damn good job of educating their children. In fact, the way things are going in the PS's I think they are doing a better job. When I taught kindergarten in the late 70's, we gave our children all the hands on learning, enriched experiences and plenty of opportunities to grow. That's not teh case now. Stepford kids are being told to sit for 90 minutes (age 5) in order to chime letter sounds.....there are fewer and fewer E.C.E classrooms on the docket these days.

 The fact is that the home is an environment rich with all that is comforting, literate  and 'hands on', which is what we have offered children in the PS until the NCLB act came about.  We are now mandated by the trickle down effect of the NCLB ACT to teach scripted programs. There is no more 'engagement" in the curriculum. They children must repeat after me....."sound" ai...ay...."sound" when I put my finger on a letter cluster you repeat after me....GO!. Our district has taken away so much, BT.
We are not even allowed to go on field trips anymore.---too risky. Law suits.  We can't teach social studies, science and the arts. Why? Not just Richardson, that's for sure.

Home schooling is a better solution and I even agree with that now...and if for nothing else, it offers a lower student teacher ratio right off the bat.

If I were a parent, I wouldn't have the courage to send my child to a public school today.

But, the children who do not have that luxury of being home schooled or attending a private school, have every right to a complete and well rounded education. They are losing that more now than ever. I see it!!! You might disagree on a political stance, but I see it first hand. You can't tell me that the issue isn't up there as a major one for no reason at all, BT. come on....otherwise, my argument would not hold water...as it would be based on Richardson's croonies. BUt no.

YEs, IT IS the NCLB act that is at the heart of all that is wrong with education in teh public sector today.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 16, 2008, 12:32:23 AM
Why would you not have a problem with the state dept of education.

They are the ones who schedule and design the test. And design and scheduling seems to be your biggest complaint.


Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on March 16, 2008, 12:53:38 AM
uhm last year at least 3 schools shutdown and several other has barely useable bathrooms and most schools are known to have outdated books.
so I`m pretty sure my statement that the money is not accounted for still stands
==================================================================
I don;t think that is adequate proof. Perhaps there was not enough money. Perhaps it was spent unwisely.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 16, 2008, 01:18:19 AM
Quote
Bt, with all due respect...you don't listen.

Cynthia, with all due respect.... I do listen.

For example i distinctly "heard" you state that administering the test in february was idiocy.

That testing for the whole curriculum so early in the year was a setup for failure.

So i dug a bit.

Georgia has their tests in April.

Same with California.

NCLB declares that the states design and implement the tests.

Which means in your case, NM is responsible for your dissatisfaction.

Did i "mishear" you?




Bt,No, you haven't been reading the entire thread of my argument. I have told you that I take issue with NCLB and  that the "act" is at the heart of what is harming so many public school children in this country. The punitive actions are based on absolute unrealistic expectations, but you refuse to hear that. You interpret those actions to be the natural response to bad teaching, and bad teachers.....in total. No. Not true. Find out more. I am spent here trying to tell you about the expectations that are unreasonable.

I have seen the difference in the classroom and you refuse to listen to what is happening.  There are just too many problems with the "act".

Testing is part of any school system...home schooling included, of course. That goes without saying. I am not necessarily arguing with that. I am arguing with you on the point that testing alone is not a complete measure of a good education. Not all.....I am not saying testing or assessments are worthless. There is more to a child than a test.

I was wrong about the fact that homeschooling produces higher scores than the PS system of today. I was in the dark ages and I disagree with MT on that now. There is no abuse if the parents are qualified and do a damn good job of educating their children. In fact, the way things are going in the PS's I think they are doing a better job. When I taught kindergarten in the late 70's, we gave our children all the hands on learning, enriched experiences and plenty of opportunities to grow. That's not teh case now. Stepford kids are being told to sit for 90 minutes (age 5) in order to chime letter sounds.....there are fewer and fewer E.C.E classrooms on the docket these days.

 The fact is that the home is an environment rich with all that is comforting, literate  and 'hands on', which is what we have offered children in the PS until the NCLB act came about.  We are now mandated by the trickle down effect of the NCLB ACT to teach scripted programs. There is no more 'engagement" in the curriculum. They children must repeat after me....."sound" ai...ay...."sound" when I put my finger on a letter cluster you repeat after me....GO!. Our district has taken away so much, BT.
We are not even allowed to go on field trips anymore.---too risky. Law suits.  We can't teach social studies, science and the arts. Why? Not just Richardson, that's for sure.

Home schooling is a better solution and I even agree with that now...and if for nothing else, it offers a lower student teacher ratio right off the bat.

If I were a parent, I wouldn't have the courage to send my child to a public school today.

But, the children who do not have that luxury of being home schooled or attending a private school, have every right to a complete and well rounded education. They are losing that more now than ever. I see it!!! You might disagree on a political stance, but I see it first hand. You can't tell me that the issue isn't up there as a major one for no reason at all, BT. come on....otherwise, my argument would not hold water...as it would be based on Richardson's croonies. BUt no.

YEs, IT IS the NCLB act that is at the heart of all that is wrong with education in teh public sector today.

http://www.nea.org/esea/overhaul.html

BT. This is my stance. Period. I know you are probably biased against the NEA as a link source, but this link and all that it provides, rings true for me and so many teachers.....
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 16, 2008, 01:22:14 AM
If testing in February is not the problem, then why did you bring it up?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 16, 2008, 01:32:30 AM
There are many problem areas in this system, BT.

February testing is just one of them. Of course there is a problem with that, as well. I am not saying that that alone is the culprit. We have tested in early spring for years now. The car needs a major overhaul and those tires were flat years ago.

There are so many 'problem areas' in this thing, BT.

 

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 16, 2008, 01:35:28 AM
Quote
The fact is that the home is an environment rich with all that is comforting, literate  and 'hands on', which is what we have offered children in the PS until the NCLB act came about.

What utter nonsense. Public schools have been in trouble since Carter. Why do you think there is a cabinet level Secretary of Education.

But you are correct about one thing. The problem seems to have mushroomed since schools got away from their core mission and implemented a whole slew of new methodologies around the beginning of the 70's.




Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 16, 2008, 01:47:48 AM
Quote
The fact is that the home is an environment rich with all that is comforting, literate  and 'hands on', which is what we have offered children in the PS until the NCLB act came about.

What utter nonsense. Public schools have been in trouble since Carter. Why do you think there is a cabinet level Secretary of Education.

But you are correct about one thing. The problem seems to have mushroomed since schools got away from their core mission and implemented a whole slew of new methodologies around the beginning of the 70's.






You know it was President Woodrow Wilson who had "his way with education" back in the 1920's. He is the one who decided that the lower class folks would learn to compute math in the algorithmic fashion -keeping them stupid, but productive, -----while the upper class folks were provided the quality education--constructivism. He was responsible for shifting that class education into action, unfortunately
The constructivist method was the primary and  the best method of teaching at the turn of the last century.

But, the public schools have stuck with Wilson's turn of events---the behaviorist mentality ever since. Thus the birth of the public school system....way before the 1970's.

Ironically,  we are on a new horizon in terms of constructivism in the teaching of mathematics.
I think it's a wonderful way to teach young children..... instead of memorizing facts, spitting out dates, and thoughts that come from the teacher instead of within the child.

It's a hard job to teach in teh constructivist viewpoint, but I think, in the end, children will learn to think and .........

perhaps be terrific debaters on teh 3DHS board someday.... ;)

Good Night
 

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 16, 2008, 12:05:30 PM
Quote
The fact is that the home is an environment rich with all that is comforting, literate  and 'hands on', which is what we have offered children in the PS until the NCLB act came about.

What utter nonsense. Public schools have been in trouble since Carter. Why do you think there is a cabinet level Secretary of Education.

But you are correct about one thing. The problem seems to have mushroomed since schools got away from their core mission and implemented a whole slew of new methodologies around the beginning of the 70's.






"What utter nonsense. Public schools have been in trouble since Carter."
No, btw, that is not utter nonsense.
 Early Childhood Education classrooms in the PS held high standards in terms of providing quality "hands on experiences" for children. The E.C.E. method of instruction was solely based on the developmental needs of children, not to mention a direct and precise individualized instruction for each child. The kindergarten classrooms in our school provide quite the opposiet----a 90 minute blocks of time where the students must sit down and chime letters as a large group.

 The PS is becoming a one size fits all education system.
Things have changed. Homeschooling probably offers more of an Early Childhood approach based on the differentiated instruction, opportunities for direct and quality engagement between the child and the curriculum. Parents have the same opportunity to provide such quality. We once had the same luxury.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 16, 2008, 09:11:03 PM
Please explain how promoting illiterate children all the way through high school is providing quality education for children.

Its not about the children. It's about the jobs.

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 16, 2008, 09:50:06 PM
Its not about the children. It's about the jobs.  


BINGO!!
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 16, 2008, 10:07:15 PM
Please explain how promoting illiterate children all the way through high school is providing quality education for children.

It?s not about the children. It's about the jobs.



Well, first of all, I never said that I support promoting children  to first grade, let alone to H.S, especially if they are illiterate! The students in our schools in the 70's and 80's  were given a quality well rounded education and went on to graduate. I know because I have taught in the same community for that long. It does take a village to raise a child in a way...I hate to quote Hillary, but it's  true. It takes so many elements to bring a child through to the end these days. If one piece of the puzzle fails, then the child is dented, if not damaged for a long time.

Jobs are also more sophisticated in scope than 30 years ago. Yet, there are so many illiterate people working in the work force today...AND not necessarily because of their schooling. There are so many factors..... rotten parenting, social issues, mental issues, drugs, peer influence, etc. It's a stressful time to be a kid.

You throw a child into any classroom setting, even a private school---- without quality behind the scenes support, the child will more than likely fall behind, if not fail. I believe that to be true...for some, not all.
Children in our school district received a heck of a lot more in years past than they do now. In fact, the children of today are failing and falling behind more so than ever before.  I have at least three children who need to be retained because they are not going to make the grade...and I mean the 1st grade-grade. They are THAT behind. They came into the classroom, functioning at a 1st grade level. (I teach 3rd grade).  These particular children have severe learning disabilities. They can not be placed in special education.  Why?  Special education has gone through some pretty profound changes, as of late, and the push is to mainstream all students---all kids in one classroom...no matter what they need. You put 25 children with varying levels in one classroom coupled with a quality program that addresses all their needs, and you have a "fighting chance" to help them through to the next grade.  But, you add  3-4  severely low functioning students-students who  are barely able to read into the same classroom, with only one teacher/ no assistant, no assistance??...You see failure.

Things have changed so much in the public school system that your point of promotion to H>S> holds water BT...holds water for todays kids...not the kids of the past.  

It's about the children getting the jobs. It's about the quality of the child's life. There is shame in the system that assumes that ALL children are capable of learning at the same rate. You don't see that, I DO! I have never seen it before now, btw.

This is a man who speak for me.
Teach Like Your Hair's on Fire...by Rafe Esquity

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 16, 2008, 10:28:27 PM
Cynthia,

This isn't about you. I am sure you are a fine dedicated teacher doing the best under difficult circumstances.

But you have to admit that most of the resistance to the accountability that comes with programs like the NCLB seem to be more concerned with protecting their turf than improving the lot of the kids they are charged with educating.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 16, 2008, 11:32:16 PM
Cynthia,

This isn't about you. I am sure you are a fine dedicated teacher doing the best under difficult circumstances.

But you have to admit that most of the resistance to the accountability that comes with programs like the NCLB seem to be more concerned with protecting their turf than improving the lot of the kids they are charged with educating.

But, Bt...it is about me and all good teachers.

When someone like you and Sirs makes a comment about NOT BEING ABOUT THE CHILD ..and instead BEING ABOUT JOBS? >>>I can't sit back, I cringe.
I know that I am a good teacher, Bill. I have taught for 32 years of my life. That's more than half of my life. My goodness. ...but I have NEVER seen such a blatant and fractured system since the NCLB act came into being. The premise was / is a good one, don't get me wrong. Please don't get me wrong. I am all for every single thing that has been posted on this thread if it means a betterment of children's education and our job culture, etc.

My thoughts, my experiences ,  my expressions, and frustrations speak for all educators out there, BT.

No, I don't think you can broad stroke and say that MOST/ALL OR even some teachers are trying to protect their TURF.  NOT ONE teacher that I know of does that. Not one.

I would venture to guess that I represent many educators in this new "world of education"..why?
 Becuase of the unjust regulations against good schools and decent teachers and in the end....children's lives. I posted a link about such things yesterday. But, the idea that it comes from teh NEA is going to outrage most conservatives...But, to make a point....it's not about unions...it's about children.

OF COURSE there have been bad ass apples in the system. Of course there are going to be those who bitch about accountability....But, my goodness, it isn't in our blood to complain about whether or not we HAVE TO BE SUDDENLY ACCOUNTABLE.

On average, teachers who love this job go into it because they want to. So many teachers have had to put up with a hell of a lot more than a rush to panic over THE NCLB act...i.e. community struggles, kids on drugs, the society that doesn't give a damn...etc etc etc....and yet, why the heck would those teachers whine and bitch about accountability?? This job is hard enough as it is!  I disagree with your assessment in total, Bt.

Ok let's look at the facts...just the facts. Read the link that I posted yesterday. Those are hard facts against the act itself. There are problems. Period. My goodness....so why sweep those issues under a rug? Let's fix them. STop blaming.

Sure, you've presented homeschooling studies and factual information recently. Gosh, I see now that they are spot on. I think that we are in such a damn critical mass time in education BECAUSE OF THE BUSH administration...and the Kennedy and the CLinton...whomever started this broken bandaid.
But, to say that the teachers AS A WHOLE are complaining about having to be accountable is just not true. You speak in terms of ALL...BT. You do...you stroke the canvas as a Republican and be damned the personal and experienced details that decorate teh landscape that is education in this day and age.

The NCLB system is not supportive. It is a dictatorship of sorts. The NCLB act is not good enough. That is all I am saying.

 I have never seen such a willingness to cut throat, to pressure, not to mention threaten to take out individuals who have worked so hard. This is crazy behavior. There is something wrong with this picture.

I have tried to outline the results of such actions as I see them.

Point:
There is no time to teach science.... No more to teach social studies. No time to teach art/music. Now NOW....NO time to teach bi-lingual ed. ( I can only speak for our school district)

Omgoodness. Bill....you must see it to believe it. In fact, I can't believe that any Republican is at the heart of all of this fiasco.

I am the first one to say that we need help to make certain that no child is left behind...but my goodness, what I am seeing is horrific, Bill. The students are suffering ..and for what? The political stance of one president and his own cronies? Not right. Not accurate. Not good enough. Peter the Principal has risen to the plate of injustice.
If you look at the facts, you see that there is an unreasonable expectation coupled with a punitive action against schools/teachers/districts/and eventually children..and it  has nothing to do with one or two egos bitching about having to be "accountable".

It has everything to do with pressuring schools to make the grade and beat out other corps. HOw? By taking away??

That's all I am saying here, Bill.
I disagree wtih the way it is being handled. NCLB is a good idea. But, the children are falling more behind.



Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 17, 2008, 07:49:44 AM
I disagree.

The problem is not with NCLB. All that does is set standards are require accountability.

The problem is with how states are implementing NCLB.

Curriculum changes are state driven. Teaching to the test is state driven.

The states are attempting to game the system. While screaming to the rafters that they are being held accountable.

Let's look at another example of federal standards.

Let's say the feds decide that all domestically produced vehicles attain a minimum standard of 40 mpg in city driving. The law leaves it up to the manufactures to determine how they will meet these standards. However if they can't meet the standards their vehicles will no longer be allowed on the roads.

The aims of the legislation are good. Reduce consumption and therefore reduce emissions and dependency on foreign oil. Foreign manufactures are already meeting these goals.

Ford is having trouble meeting the requirements. So the first thing they do is say they can't meet the standards because the fed hasn't funded the mandate. Then the unions get into the act because they fear the loss of jobs if the standards aren't met. So they fund studies that show that increased Cafe standards are a bad thing and are discriminatory against minority and ESL workers because they are incapable of the increased quality control necessary in the manufacturing process to achieve the goals.

Meanwhile the board of directors in fear of reduced revenues concentrates all their efforts on the engine, drive train and fuel delivery system. They cut R&D on brakes, electrical and safety featured.

Sound familiar?

Yet that is not the letter nor the spirit of the law.







Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 17, 2008, 12:19:14 PM
The problem is not with NCLB. All that does is set standards are require accountability.

Yes, it sets standards that require accountability, as it should. I agree with that, but BT, there are critical flaws within the act. As those flaws get ironed out, I do believe that the NCLB act will support everyone involved.


Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 17, 2008, 08:39:48 PM
Quote
Sirs, Explain why you think, Bingo...please.

Strangely the post I was trying to respond to wasn't working, but I happened to have kept the particular post on my computer to more properly respond to it when I could

Let me again reference my substantial respect for teachers, both in the Public & Private sectors.  You couldn't pay me enough to put up with the "stuff" they have to, be it from the kids, the parents, and/or their own administrators. 

Now, to focus on the query, minus all the "nuance", the teacher's unions, as exemplified by both the NEA & the CTA, .....and perhaps that's too vague, let's say the leadership of those unions, have made it crystal clear that children are not their priority, education is not their priority, job security is.  Whether its teachers, assistant principals, or principals.  One can easly come to that conclusion based on the pervasive efforts made to both stifle any competition that would in turn facilitate even better efficiency & teaching ability, at all grade levels, and in making it nearly impossible to fire incompotent or worse, predatory teachers/principals.  I heard a story just today in the LA Unified School district who blew millions of dollars on a payroll computer system, that's still sending checks to dead teachers, a YEAR LATER.  You also have this Principal (http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-principal13mar13,0,1739968.story) who instead of being fired for his prior conduct or at minimum kept away from any & all children, had some form of "must be placed" designation, and placed at Watts Middle School, where neither teachers nor administrators were told of his background, and now he's alledged to have sexually assaulted a 13year old girl. 

It should have never gotten that far, Miss Cynthia.  But his job apparently was more important than the children he was going to be put in contact with.  That's just 1 of a whole host of examples as to why I "bingo'd" Bt's post
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 17, 2008, 11:03:21 PM
Quote
Sirs, Explain why you think, Bingo...please.

Strangely the post I was trying to respond to wasn't working, but I happened to have kept the particular post on my computer to more properly respond to it when I could

Let me again reference my substantial respect for teachers, both in the Public & Private sectors.  You couldn't pay me enough to put up with the "stuff" they have to, be it from the kids, the parents, and/or their own administrators. 

Now, to focus on the query, minus all the "nuance", the teacher's unions, as exemplified by both the NEA & the CTA, .....and perhaps that's too vague, let's say the leadership of those unions, have made it crystal clear that children are not their priority, education is not their priority, job security is.  Whether its teachers, assistant principals, or principals.  One can easly come to that conclusion based on the pervasive efforts made to both stifle any competition that would in turn facilitate even better efficiency & teaching ability, at all grade levels, and in making it nearly impossible to fire incompotent or worse, predatory teachers/principals.  I heard a story just today in the LA Unified School district who blew millions of dollars on a payroll computer system, that's still sending checks to dead teachers, a YEAR LATER.  You also have this Principal (http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-principal13mar13,0,1739968.story) who instead of being fired for his prior conduct or at minimum kept away from any & all children, had some form of "must be placed" designation, and placed at Watts Middle School, where neither teachers nor administrators were told of his background, and now he's alledged to have sexually assaulted a 13year old girl. 

It should have never gotten that far, Miss Cynthia.  But his job apparently was more important than the children he was going to be put in contact with.  That's just 1 of a whole host of examples as to why I "bingo'd" Bt's post


Well, you haven't won the bingo game just yet, Sirs. Recall time.

"I heard a story just today in the LA Unified School district "

 So many times, we base our thoughts, reactions, and feelings on an issue based on what has been "heard" in the media ....and it seems to me that most, if not all of those "stories heard", are negative and do a good job of selling news(papers). Sure, that doesn't mean that some of those stories are not news "worthy", but that's all .

I have yet to see anyone publish all the thousands of wonderful things that occur on a daily basis in classrooms across this nation. ....and yet, in my direct world, I have seen them first hand and A LOT. I am privy to them from the elementary level to the University level, and for YEARS. not just last week's news.

Anyone who says that because ONE element of the system has been stained , then all the rest must also be a failure. ... the NEA for example. My gosh, they stand up for the many, many good teachers, Sirs.   You and BT continue to make broad stroke statement against such unions, as if they are in some sort of self serving bastards who want nothing else but to save the bad apple's asses.(jobs)
Wow, that's all you have to offer?


We as a culture drag good people and good working systems through the mud. There are many stories in tHE naked city...and hey, there just might be one GOOD ONE....ya think?

Why is it we base our "truth" or our debate on the most negative piece of news we can find....

ok...Sure, Catholic priests have harmed kids. Sure, some educators have harmed kids.....but you have to be kidding me if you want to erase all the rest of the population of such dedicated individuals in order to make a point?! Do you know how many thousands of good systems there are in this country? Private, Public, Charter, Homeschooling etc.

YEs, hundreds of thousands of people TEACH on a daily basis and yet we hear about the ONE IN your neck of the woods AND it  just happened to be published. Go figure.


You are not in the classroom...nor are you in the system...nor are you a member of any NEA union....You know for sure that they are ALL BAD?
 

Job security??   Oh give me a break. Sirs, did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe all systems, be they  PS school systems, or law firms, or Fruit Basket markets down 12th stree..... are filled with few bad apples?

More times than not, the NEA is there to support a good teacher who is being railroaded by a reaallly bad leader.

Sure, there are really stupid principals. There are many crazy administrators...but there are also very dedicated ones, as well.

And.... if such a  "Peter Principal" is in charge and your job is on the line... often times because of such ineptness, You're job and your integrity are just plain toast. That's horrible, but it's the nature of human beings who want POWER!
I, for one, have seen that happen. . and if it werent' for the union, some of those great teachers would be out.


Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 18, 2008, 12:15:52 AM
Cynthia,

If you were omnipotent, what changes would you make to the education system that provided for competency at grade level for all students as well as school system wide accountability?

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 18, 2008, 12:48:13 AM
So many times, we base our thoughts, reactions, and feelings on an issue based on what has been "heard" in the media ....and it seems to me that most, if not all of those "stories heard", are negative and do a good job of selling news(papers). Sure, that doesn't mean that some of those stories are not news "worthy", but that's all .  I have yet to see anyone publish all the thousands of wonderful things that occur on a daily basis in classrooms across this nation.  

Miss Cynthia, with all due respect, most people acknowledge the wonderful things that do happen in the classrooms.  In fact, most people acknowledge how hard teachers have it, and how difficult their job is.  I think you have this mindset that it's us vs them.  It's not.  It's US, as in ALL of us, Public Schools, Private Schools, AND Homeschooling.  You seem to be both denying the successes of Home Schooling, AND advocating how they basically aren't reliable nor credible, since they don't have the proper amount of state sponsored acredidation.  In essesnce, your pushing for precisely what you seem to be argueing about.  Do you not see that?


Anyone who says that because ONE element of the system has been stained , then all the rest must also be a failure. ...  

And who the hell is saying that??


My gosh, they stand up for the many, many good teachers, Sirs.  

They stand up for ALL teachers & Union members, the incompotent and predatory ones as well.  and there in lies my problem with the NEA (& CTA)


You and BT continue to make broad stroke statement against such unions, as if they are in some sort of self serving bastards who want nothing else but to save the bad apple's asses.(jobs)  Wow, that's all you have to offer?

Naaaa, they (the NEA) do it for me


ok...Sure, Catholic priests have harmed kids. Sure, some educators have harmed kids.....but you have to be kidding me if you want to erase all the rest of the population of such dedicated individuals in order to make a point?!  

Again, what's with this us vs them???  Who's trying to rid the world of Public school teachers, that you seem to be so stick on??


Job security??   Oh give me a break. Sirs, did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe all systems, be they  PS school systems, or law firms, or Fruit Basket markets down 12th stree..... are filled with few bad apples?  

Absolutely.  And in nearly every other job, the incompotent bad apples are weeded out & fired, where as in the Public Education sector, they're simply relocated, if anything.



Sure, there are really stupid principals. There are many crazy administrators...but there are also very dedicated ones, as well.  

Yea........and?  Let me make this is clear as possible (& please excuse the capital letter tone) NO ONE WANTS TO RID THE COUNTRY OF THE PUBLIC EDUCATION SYSTEM & NO ONE WANTS TO GET RID OF THE VERY GOOD DEDICATED TEACHERS THAT MAKE UP THE SYSTEM.  What I advocate is to allow other avenues of education, THAT WORK AS GOOD, IF NOT BETTER than the Public School system, continue withOUT unnecessary overregulation, AND to allow for the easier firing of the incompotent & predatory teachers & principals.  You'll note that does NOT equate to my support that the Public School system be destroyed, or to abolish all the great teachers.  Do you grasp the difference??

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 18, 2008, 01:30:00 AM
Your post was negative, Sirs.
That's what I was responding to......you see things differently than I.

I just don't agree.

Cynthia
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 18, 2008, 02:21:00 AM
Don't agree with what?  The emphasis the NEA and unions place on job security for even the incompotent teachers, Principals, & Administrators??  The overt effort of the union to stifle any competition that happens to exist in nearly every other enterprise, perpetuating their effort to monopolize the education system??  That MOST teachers are excellent dedicated individuals, who deserve our support in every way possible??  What is it you don't agree with?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 18, 2008, 02:41:34 AM
Cynthia,

If you were omnipotent, what changes would you make to the education system that provided for competency at grade level for all students as well as school system wide accountability?


First of all, let me say that ....
The NCLB act has a great many good points. I do believe that..to answer your query.
But, is isn't fully operational as I see it--- nor is it open to allow for healthy growth in a fashion that supports children. ...ALL CHILDREN. ALL CHILDREN.


SURe...I would expect every child to have to read on grade level across the board --- BUT if that child is diagnosed, and is simply capable of such a "benchmark"....Those expectations are at the weakest link in the NCLB, imo.

The weakest link in all of this, imo...is about an unrealistic accountability to bring every child to the same platform.  I am talking about the children who need so much more help/expertise from specialized and qualified teachers. Now as it stands, those kids are expected to function, read, write, compute, and progress at the same rate as their peers who are not diagnosed with such a learning disability-- L.D.

I believe that all children must be given a chance to learn.
Each human's brain learns is a unique way. My god.  The business of education is not just about numbers, or funding, or teacher's jobs on teh line......it is about individuals.


I would support the teachers instead of punishing them and the schools for what are unrealistic goals.

Ok sure... THE AYP (adequate yearly progress) is also a good idea, but the way it is handled is unjust. Schools can not possilby expect to rise to such a level as the regulations are currently organized.
There is little room for such perfection or progress when a school must show growth in the next school year based on mandatory growth

Ex; A school receives a grade of 97% overall on a nationally standardized test this year ( which is exemplary). That school MUST reach  a 98% or better the following year or their AYP is NOT MET.

So then, that same school receives a 96%(still exemplary)score the following year. The school is put on probation because it did not make APY!!! Punitive without representation.
 Not fair..not right..not productive.

I would make sure that good teachers are appreciated. As it stands, because of the ugliness and mess that is the "tabloidish NCLB scene"....teachers are quickly blamed and/or tarnished.

 Sure, I would reward schools based on test scores. and, and... It's ok to kick out the bad teachers. But, I think that one has to get down into the system to interview, observe, and ask pertinent and intelligent questions of teachers/schools---- instead of some sort of "team visit" (bureaucratic attempt to change teh system because the suddenly the government has decided one size fits all.)

I would assess each school individually as it has progessed. Fair assessments..... as sort of differentiation of academic improvements per school....

Ex:
If a particular school happens to be centered in an economically wealthier area of town, and therefore capable of providing more for the students vs another school that is barely staying a float, scrapping the barrel, surrounded by poverty and violence and "war zones"...---- I would give support accordingly. I would not expect one to be the same as the other and do so....TOMORROW!!!

I feel that the NCLB act is doing just that. Trying to force schools to improve based on irrational comparisons. ONe size fits all mentality with little funding and inaccurate accountability on its part.

Tweak the NCLB and it will work magic. I believe that to be true.



  

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 18, 2008, 02:44:13 AM

"The emphasis the NEA and unions place on job security for even the incompotent teachers, Principals, & Administrators??  The overt effort of the union to stifle any competition that happens to exist in nearly every other enterprise, perpetuating their effort to monopolize the education system??  "


YEs, I disagree with your statement, here, Sirs.

With all due respect. I have written my reasons in a previous post.

Good night. It's late. I am tired...

Good discussion, though. Perhaps things will iron out in this nation...we shall see.

The NCLB is broken but not trashed...so dont' get me wrong on that.

NEA is not as bad as you portrait.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 18, 2008, 03:17:38 AM
Student A passes the competency test for grade three.

Student B does not.

Should student b be promoted to grade 4?

If not, why not?

If so, why so?

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 18, 2008, 03:46:23 AM
"The emphasis the NEA and unions place on job security for even the incompotent teachers, Principals, & Administrators??  The overt effort of the union to stifle any competition that happens to exist in nearly every other enterprise, perpetuating their effort to monopolize the education system??   "

YEs, I disagree with your statement, here, Sirs.  

Miss Cynthia, you yourself have referenced over and over the NEA's support at protecting teachers, and not once have you made reference to the incompotent & predatory teachers & principals that they also support and protect.  It'a almost as if "well, in order to protect the good ones, we have to protect all of them"    :-\

And Competition is the facilitator of ever improving standards and strategems.  It helps promite improvement in every facit it exists.  Yet, it's the NEA and company that will fight tooth and nail to prevent school choice for parents who would jump thru firey hoops at the opportunity of getting their kinds into better schools, not to mention the efforts they've put forth in inhibiting home schooling.  Every step of the way, where Children's education could be made better, there's the NEA making every effort to hold on to what monopolizing power they still have........always with the hallmark that it's "for the children"

You can disagree all you want, but your wrong about the efforts and priorities of the NEA and its leadership



Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on March 18, 2008, 06:47:30 AM
Yeah, you realize that teachers are grossly underpaid, subject to a ponderous bureaucracy, and restricted from using their own minds, and yet you want to take away the only power they actually have, the NEA.

You think that the NEA should rat out people you think are bad teachers, when all it wants is the right to a comprehensible due process system that will encourage mediocre teachers to become better teachers.

Without the NEA and similar organizations, teachers would have no job security at all and even more pitiful salaries and would lose all claim to being professionals.

So screw you. And the horse you rode in on. You have no concept of the problems teachers face.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: kimba1 on March 18, 2008, 02:00:50 PM
uhm
underpaid doesn`t cover it
pay is not the only factor
due to all the lawsuits schools tend to get from parents
teachers are soo responsible to the student that the title teacher simply doesn`t cover it anymore.
this is one of the factors teachers are leaving.
if I sound like I`m blaming parents for the teacher shortage
your correct
remember all those chaotic policies are made as response from some parent
government do not make up rules
government only reacts

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 18, 2008, 03:54:55 PM
Yeah, you realize that teachers are grossly underpaid, subject to a ponderous bureaucracy, and restricted from using their own minds, and yet you want to take away the only power they actually have, the NEA.

You think that the NEA should rat out people you think are bad teachers, when all it wants is the right to a comprehensible due process system that will encourage mediocre teachers to become better teachers.

Without the NEA and similar organizations, teachers would have no job security at all and even more pitiful salaries and would lose all claim to being professionals.

So screw you. And the horse you rode in on. You have no concept of the problems teachers face.


BINGO, XO!!

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 18, 2008, 04:01:41 PM
So screw you. And the horse you rode in on. You have no concept of the problems teachers face.

BINGO, XO!!

And apparently you 2 have no concept of how the NEA's priorities of job security trump children's education.  I'll forgo the unnecessary insultive barb though
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on March 18, 2008, 04:13:01 PM
If the teachers did absolutely EVERYTHING that you think they should, they would not get paid one dime more unless they had an organization to do battle for them.

You have never belonged to the NEA, you have never been a teacher. So your opinion is worth exactly zilch.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 18, 2008, 04:19:17 PM
If the teachers did absolutely EVERYTHING that you think they should, they would not get paid one dime more unless they had an organization to do battle for them.

Yea, they would.  In a competative market place, the better employees are rewarded with better salaries, while the incompotent ones are fired


You have never belonged to the NEA....

And I NEVER will (have any intention of EVER being part of a Union)


You have never belonged to the NEA.  So your opinion is worth exactly zilch

so then "obviously" your opinion on the war is worth zilch too, since you've never belonged to the military.  Is that the route you plan on taking, Xo?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 18, 2008, 06:39:18 PM


"And apparently you 2 have no concept of how the NEA's priorities of job security trump children's education.  I'll forgo the unnecessary insultive barb though."

So, tell me Sirs, how many years have you been teaching in a classroom?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 18, 2008, 06:52:27 PM
So tell me Miss Cynthia, how long have you been a member of the military & war in Iraq?  You do seem to be criticising it ever so frequently now, and membership is apparently required to be able to do that, right??

(And FYI, I did teach for 2 years, before I got into PT school, and while I was a Physical Therapist, I spent about 3 years working in the school system.    >:( )
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on March 18, 2008, 06:56:43 PM
Teaching is not in any sense a competitive economy, nor should it be.

Competition does not make for good education. It makes for an environment in which only one is a winner and all the rest are losers.
A good education requires cooperation, not competition. It is not and never will be a race to see who knows more than whom.
Education can be measured against only one standard: ignorance.


As a professional educator, I know that the only place in a school for competition is possibly varsity sports, and that only in the sense that it builds a loyalty to the institution for some people to whom a ball is the only thing they understand. Sports are mostly good exercise, though some (basketball, track, soccer) are far superior to others (hockey, football, in which serious injuries and expensive equipment costs can outweigh the benefits of exercise) and baseball, in which over half the players are required to just loiter around and wait rather than exercise.

A teacher who is told he will be fired unless he does everything in some prescribed way, which is what happens when some bozo decides on "standards", will never try any new techniques and no one who is constantly threatened with being fired will be able to teach in any effective way.

My main objection to war is that it is exceedingly costly in lives and treasure. I make no claims to  being an expert in strategy, unless it is really obvious, as was Rumsfeld's insufficient force resulting in disaster. The real pros already knew this, and told him so.

If you would not join a union, this tells me that you are incapable of cooperating in any meaningful way with your fellow me, and definitely do not belong in education.

Even an army requires cooperation. Actually, an army demands cooperation. But Armies are about brute force and destruction, and education is about training each person to realize his highest potential. Brute force and destruction are rarely a part of any sort of decent education.

One example would be General Petraeus, who dared to actually think what he was doing through in Iraq, and managed to cooperate with the locals, rather than just do the easy thing and scare the crap out of them. He used his head. The other officers did only as they were told, and enjoyed little or no success. The army is not a place where creative thought is generally considered a positive thing.

I would say that by and large, our best officers are far better at getting their goals accomplished than our dummy politicians. The only trouble is that like Colin Powell, Shalikashvili and the Admiral Fallon, they are too often thrown out for being too competent.


Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 18, 2008, 07:38:32 PM
Teaching is not in any sense a competitive economy, nor should it be.

That's your opinion

Competition does not make for good education.

Wrong.  I can't tell you the frequent comptetions I was in as a student, wanting to better my best friend.  And what the hell do you call a Spelling bee competition??  or Math Competitions??, or Science Fair Competitions??.  Testing is in and of itself a competition with yourself.  You can make all the rationalizations you want on perseverating the status quo, and continued degradation of the Public School system.  The point is, where competition is allowed to flourish, greatness occurs.  When monopolies are maintained......well we see those results all to frequently as well


It makes for an environment in which only one is a winner and all the rest are losers.

OR, it makes ALL winners, by prompting EVERYONE to do a better job, from teachers to principals to administrators


Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 18, 2008, 07:54:11 PM
Quote
A teacher who is told he will be fired unless he does everything in some prescribed way, which is what happens when some bozo decides on "standards", will never try any new techniques and no one who is constantly threatened with being fired will be able to teach in any effective way.

A teacher is hired to teach. And at the end of the school year his charges should be able to perform at a certain level. That level is ascertained by sampling and averaging and sooner or later becomes a standard.

Holding a teacher accountable for reaching those standards in no way inhibits innovation and new techniques as long as the results meet the prescribed standards. What has changed is that all the children in that class must attain the level prescribed. The challenge is issued. The question is whether the educational force is up to it.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 18, 2008, 08:01:11 PM
Holding a teacher accountable for reaching those standards in no way inhibits innovation and new techniques as long as the results meet the prescribed standards.  

PRECISELY
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: kimba1 on March 18, 2008, 08:46:22 PM
in no way inhibits innovation and new techniques

but that`s the real question
are teachers allowed to use new techniques?
note all the talk to push students to do better by raising the bar,but none about whether teacher are allowed freedom to try methods to met it.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 18, 2008, 08:54:13 PM
One would think that when presented with such a new and exciting challenge as to make sure all their students are prepared for the next level, that new and innovative approaches would be tried.

Necessity is the mother of invention, dontchaknow.

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on March 18, 2008, 08:59:36 PM
Holding a teacher accountable for reaching those standards in no way inhibits innovation and new techniques  as long as the results meet the prescribed standards. 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Well see, there is the problem. We don't really KNOW how people learn the most effectively. If you experiment with a new technique, it might not work at all. Most likely, it will be effective for some, but not others, since not ever person learns the same way.The people at the forefront of learning theory are not Doctors of education, but Doctors of Brain physiology, and they have yet to apply their findings in any effective way to serious educational theory and/or experimentation.

The purpose of any experiment is to see what works and what does not. If the teacher tries something and it does not produce better results than the previous method, he has succeeded as a scientist, but failed as a teacher to the degree that his hypothesis did not work out. And he will no doubt catch hell for trying something new.

If his hypothesis works, then he is a hero, of course.

As for competition, the very WORST example is in high school sports. The kids that make the team are only a small percentage of all the students for whom physical exercise is advantageous. The kids who really needs physical training--the fat kids, the wimpy kids, the scrawny nerds--never make the team. They sit on the benches even during PE class, And the kids who need physical training the very least make the team and nearly all the money is spent on them.

This may aid in producing a few professional athletes, but it shortchanges at least 90% of the student body even in the smallest high schools.

Spelling bees in ONE class might be useful to the students. It becomes less and less useful as the total group becomes larger. Eventually we end up discovering that one 12 year old Southeast Asian girl is the only human in the nation who can spell everything, at which point it is a lot more a freak show than an educational exercise.


And, no, in most schools the teachers are far too overworked to try innovative techniques in any scientifically useful way. Not following the prescribed lesson plan is going to get any beginning teacher fired for sure. Your best chjance is to teach in a school everyone considers hopeless, like the Chicano Garfield High in the film Stand and Deliver.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: MissusDe on March 18, 2008, 10:14:05 PM
Quote
Well see, there is the problem. We don't really KNOW how people learn the most effectively. If you experiment with a new technique, it might not work at all. Most likely, it will be effective for some, but not others, since not ever person learns the same way.

Actually, we do know howpeople learn the most effectively. The best teachers I know use this as a guideline for designing lesson plans which address the differing learning styles of each of their students:

http://www.wcupa.edu/_ACADEMICS/sch_cas.psy/Career_Paths/Educational/subfield3.htm (http://www.wcupa.edu/_ACADEMICS/sch_cas.psy/Career_Paths/Educational/subfield3.htm)
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 18, 2008, 11:49:13 PM
So tell me Miss Cynthia, how long have you been a member of the military & war in Iraq?  You do seem to be criticising it ever so frequently now, and membership is apparently required to be able to do that, right??

(And FYI, I did teach for 2 years, before I got into PT school, and while I was a Physical Therapist, I spent about 3 years working in the school system.    >:( )

Ok, maybe that wasn't fair of me to ask you that loaded question, Sirs...sorry bout that....
It is obvious that you have not seen the front lines of a PS system.
I admire your desire to debate this issue, but I can only share what I believe to be my truth. I believe you are wrong. I know you are wrong . You have not seen both sides of the NEA issues..you are not able to step out of a  black and white box.

I speak for myself. I work in a system which hangs by a thin thread and could break apart if not for the NEA, not to mention and ironically so....the help from the GOVERNMENT.  Ok, yes, the  NCLB has a lot to save this broken system, it does. But it needs a major overhaul.

That's how I feel.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 19, 2008, 12:33:42 AM
 It is a well known fact among educators that individuals learn in a variety of ways.
The link you provided is spot on.
THe issue we face currently in the PS system centers around the push for educators to teach all children in the same way using the same method, same book level, (with varying degrees of differentiation).
Stepford kids! No real learning curve, no realistic understanding of how children learn. Nada.


 what and how to teach use a scripted type program, basal books by a company Houghton Mifflin, or Harcourt Brace....making them a lot of money by the way..and in no way do these companies address those styles of learning.

As a young college student, I received all of the best practices in terms of such knowledge and more. Piaget, Vygotsky to name a couple.  (side bar:. When I was in Geneva in 1974 on my honeymoon, I was minutes away from meeting Jean Piaget in his office at the University of Geneva in Suisse. That would have been like meeting  Freud for a student of psychology ....ha)

 I would have to say that that is the crux of the problem in our schools today. We are not encouraged to use such knowledge. 
The push to get scores up and have everyone read,no matter what,has brought  a clash between what the Universities and Colleges teach and what the schools perform.

 The professors in the Ed. Dept. at UNM or the College of Santa Fe are completely at odds with the public schools here.  ON the one hand they provide such a classic knowledge base in terms of child development, learning styles etc, but when a student teacher enters any classrooms in the system these days, time is spent of ironing out their confusion.
I had a student teacher last year. She was caught between a rock and a very hard place, indeed.


"Well see, there is the problem. We don't really KNOW how people learn the most effectively. If you experiment with a new technique, it might not work at all. Most likely, it will be effective for some, but not others, since not ever person learns the same way" XO

IMO, when a school system decides to "experiment" with new techniques, as is the case in our district with the HMR programs, we really don't know if it is going to "work" and quite frankly, to forcue us to teach by using an experiemental new scripted program with no regard to learning styles..... is a slap in the face. Sure, there has to be some sort of minor awareness or background of such things on teh part of the text book companies, but there is a front end element that spells out teach all with very little empasis on the individual.

So then, the COE graduates might just as well take a few "training sessions" to learn how to teach....that is waht we are MANDATED TO DO. I mean mandated. We can't budge an inch or a minute lost on scripts...lest we get pulled into the office for a write up. 
 
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 19, 2008, 12:53:02 AM
Holding a teacher accountable for reaching those standards in no way inhibits innovation and new techniques  as long as the results meet the prescribed standards. 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Well see, there is the problem. We don't really KNOW how people learn the most effectively. If you experiment with a new technique, it might not work at all. Most likely, it will be effective for some, but not others, since not ever person learns the same way.The people at the forefront of learning theory are not Doctors of education, but Doctors of Brain physiology, and they have yet to apply their findings in any effective way to serious educational theory and/or experimentation.

The purpose of any experiment is to see what works and what does not. If the teacher tries something and it does not produce better results than the previous method, he has succeeded as a scientist, but failed as a teacher to the degree that his hypothesis did not work out. And he will no doubt catch hell for trying something new.

If his hypothesis works, then he is a hero, of course.

As for competition, the very WORST example is in high school sports. The kids that make the team are only a small percentage of all the students for whom physical exercise is advantageous. The kids who really needs physical training--the fat kids, the wimpy kids, the scrawny nerds--never make the team. They sit on the benches even during PE class, And the kids who need physical training the very least make the team and nearly all the money is spent on them.

This may aid in producing a few professional athletes, but it shortchanges at least 90% of the student body even in the smallest high schools.

Spelling bees in ONE class might be useful to the students. It becomes less and less useful as the total group becomes larger. Eventually we end up discovering that one 12 year old Southeast Asian girl is the only human in the nation who can spell everything, at which point it is a lot more a freak show than an educational exercise.


And, no, in most schools the teachers are far too overworked to try innovative techniques in any scientifically useful way. Not following the prescribed lesson plan is going to get any beginning teacher fired for sure. Your best chjance is to teach in a school everyone considers hopeless, like the Chicano Garfield High in the film Stand and Deliver.



The kids who really needs physical training--the fat kids, the wimpy kids, the scrawny nerds--never make the team. They sit on the benches even during PE class, And the kids who need physical training the very least make the team and nearly all the money is spent on them.


This is where I stand as liberal as they come.....as I am reading this, XO, I find it interesting that the "bottom line" for most adults in this country is about power, money, money and ...money.
Oh, and looking better than anyone else in the world...even though we look like fools most of the time.
Sometimes, I feel that America is so focused on that bottom dollar line that we are willing to let a lot more than kids sit on the side lines .... (buidling up fat, pondering poor habits, and bashing the hell out of self esteem)

Be damned the kids who need to be helped. Be damned if it means success at all cost. Mission accomplished.
The same goes for our new focus on making the grade in education/school/ classrooms etc.

Be damned the child who can't learn the same way as Jose or Idell, we MUST LOOK GOOD. We must compete at all cost.

Side lines? I see those kids struggling and having to sit through entire lessons ...and you know what? They fall asleep sometimes because of lack of good parenting. Pure and simple.

And BT has the nerve to say that it is all about a "challenge" to teachers?
Crap bull crap!

Your post is very good, Xavier. Damn.I appreciate that you have an insight into teaching at all levels not just the college level. For that, I thank you. You have always impressed me as a damn good educator...not because I agree with you necessarily, but because you are not afraid to speak up for those teachers who work their asses off at any level. ..and for the sake of the children who deserve more.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 19, 2008, 01:12:38 AM



"Holding a teacher accountable for reaching those standards."

Ok...who the heck said that teachers should not be held accountable. Damn, most working class, educated people are accountable in some way or another.  Perhaps there are other factors that hender or hold back a child from learning? You think?



Sometimes, I feel that this issue is politically driven, and yet...NO ONE WILL CARE about the solution to the problem after the election. Not really.

We all want and deserve accountability in our world. I find this bashing and arm chair arrogance against teachers in this country sickening.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 19, 2008, 01:18:41 AM
Yes competition exists. And the schools are charged with preparing future generations with meeting that competitive challenge and it doesn't matter if the graduate competes with their neighbor or someone half way around the world.

It's criminal that some high school graduates (not drop outs) can't fill out job applications. It's criminal that a large number of incoming college freshmen are required to take remedial courses ( XO has testified to this).
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 19, 2008, 01:24:12 AM
Yes competition exists. And the schools are charged with preparing future generations with meeting that competitive challenge and it doesn't matter if the graduate competes with their neighbor or someone half way around the world.

It's criminal that some high school graduates (not drop outs) can't fill out job applications. It's criminal that a large number of incoming college freshmen are required to take remedial courses ( XO has testified to this).

It is not alway the teacher's fault, BT.

You don't seem to understand that.

It is not just about said child having had a bad teacher..lest they have had 12 years of bad teachers?

Perhaps there's more to the story. Come on , man think....

there are so many other elements in play here.

How about the pressures in the world of the young teen today....etc.

In the old days, working at Dairy Queen or Mac Dee's helped a young buck or lass step up into the world.

Now, you are either a wall street broker, or you're nobody. That's stretching it a bit, but I do believe that the pressures are greater in the world today. It's not all about teachers, or systems. Not all.

Times have changed, and it is just possible that the times in which we live have affected young people.

 


Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 19, 2008, 02:02:01 AM
Quote
It is not alway the teacher's fault, BT.

Never said it was. The problem is systemic. Parents, teachers, students, administrators and the government.

Every part of the equation needs to be examined . Hard.

It's no time for excuse. It's past time to fix the problem. NCLB is a start. It isn't the complete solution.

A combination of strategies would work, Vouchers, charter schools, magnet schools, vocational tracks for the academically disinclined, schools to handle behavior problems and even home schools.


Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: kimba1 on March 19, 2008, 02:33:07 AM
my nephew told me teachers grade in a curve and understand that it encourages poor performance since if one students is extremely bright it would lower everbody elses grades and discourages performance but if everyone gets average or less than everybody benefits.

the theory was to encourage better performance ,but somehow never factor in students get discouraged with fluctuating test scores
ex. 85% =b today ,c+ tommorow

what is the logic for the bright student to raise test score and hurt everrybodies grade
when he still get the same grade doing average.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 19, 2008, 02:51:04 AM


"Never said it was. The problem is systemic. Parents, teachers, students, administrators and the government. "


I beg to differ...you are constantly complaining that teachers need to be accountable and not once have I read these words from your end, BT..with all due respect.....The problem is systemic. Parents, teachers, students, administrators and the government. "


Ok, then, you know for a fact that charter schools are better than public schools? Private schools offer more, I agree, but some Charter schools are no better than Public Schools, in our city.

 In fact, where I live, they are dumping grounds for many behaviorally challenged kids. Sure the Charter Schools promote and promise to offer only the best education. The main issue will come down to clear and precise studies of  the differences among all the choices of schools...This is true.

Charter schools promise such things as quality education, individualized attention, computer lap tops for every child!!! Oh, that's a real attractive bait.....

But, in the end, will they really offer any more than other institution? I have heard back from parents who enrolled their child in a charter school that offered such attractions, and they were severly disappointed.

 I do agree that home schooling is becoming a truly attractive element these days...but I am also broad stoking  a bit here, based on the lack of freedom I have as a teacher. If we take into consideration that the parent is well qualified and educated  in education ...i.e. child development, curriculum and "learning styles".
Home schooling?
Why not?
Give a child the chance to experience learning first hand as he/she is allowed to be immersed and directly engaged in the learning process one on one, at home,  at the zoo,  in a museum, at the local Explora science museum,........... not to mention visits to quality libraries--all clear and precise targets for a quality education, sans the  social interaction and feedback from other young minds, which is also important.


My point?   Charter, Vouchers, Private, ...who's to say ...who's to PROVE that the "grass is greener on the other side"?

I suppose in the end, it will come down to things proven through data and  evidence, through time and honest assessments of all systems in question.

We'll see.

For now, all we can hope for in the PS is a richer attention paid to the NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND ACT! A richer attention, indeed. Make it work.

Pray for rain.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 19, 2008, 02:52:44 AM
my nephew told me teachers grade in a curve and understand that it encourages poor performance since if one students is extremely bright it would lower everbody elses grades and discourages performance but if everyone gets average or less than everybody benefits.

the theory was to encourage better performance ,but somehow never factor in students get discouraged with fluctuating test scores
ex. 85% =b today ,c+ tommorow

what is the logic for the bright student to raise test score and hurt everrybodies grade
when he still get the same grade doing average.

Kim,
We are doing away with grade averaging in our system. We are headed into a standard-based reporting system.

It is a good idea.

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 19, 2008, 06:29:52 AM
Quote
My point?   Charter, Vouchers, Private, ...who's to say ...who's to PROVE that the "grass is greener on the other side"?

And my point is that if more time were spent improving the public school product instead of protecting public school jobs, maybe , just maybe , we wouldn't be in this mess.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 19, 2008, 01:50:56 PM
Quote
My point?   Charter, Vouchers, Private, ...who's to say ...who's to PROVE that the "grass is greener on the other side"?

And my point is that if more time were spent improving the public school product instead of protecting public school jobs, maybe , just maybe , we wouldn't be in this mess.


I believe that more time, money, attention should be spent on what is already working well in the public schools. Protecting jobs is protecting children in the end. There's nothing wrong with having good job security. We disagree with one point vehemently. ....we are in a mess, currently because of the lack of best practices on the part of the NCLB ACT.
The NEA has done more for children than you believe, BT. We will probably never agree on that issue.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 19, 2008, 02:00:19 PM
Protecting jobs is protecting children in the end.

So, protecting this guy's job (http://www.wsoctv.com/news/15629955/detail.html) will protect students?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 19, 2008, 02:23:00 PM
Quote
My point?   Charter, Vouchers, Private, ...who's to say ...who's to PROVE that the "grass is greener on the other side"?

And my point is that if more time were spent improving the public school product instead of protecting public school jobs, maybe , just maybe , we wouldn't be in this mess.

I believe that more time, money, attention should be spent on what is already working well in the public schools. Protecting jobs is protecting children in the end.  

NOT, when your protecting ALL jobs, including the incompotent and predatorial folk.  That then is at the detriment of the child.  Again, what's the priority??  Job security trumps the children??  And lest we all be reminded, the amount of money we already pay per pupil is incredible.  To continue the mantra we need more money, when it's been shown there is no direct correlation to more money = better education, is also a diservice to the education of the children, and simply seeks to perpetuate the status quo


Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: kimba1 on March 19, 2008, 03:15:51 PM
sir`s I understand what your saying
remove the job security and make it performance base and natural selection will weedout the bad teachers.
the problem is it punishes the good teachers by living a unstable life and that teacher can never try new methods for risking the job.
also how does this attract good teachers?
keep your job is not a incentive to hire people.
people forget thier place in regard to teachers
bad teachers need tenure to work good teachers can go somewhere else to work
ex.I posted a few years ago a coach taught college level courses to his team to get them college credits.
he got fired for it but he got work the next week
seriuosly what school wouldn`t want him.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 19, 2008, 03:33:16 PM
Quote
I believe that more time, money, attention should be spent on what is already working well in the public schools.

If it were working so well there would be no need for NCLB, remedial courses in college and teacher fears of being held accountable.

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 19, 2008, 03:43:26 PM
Quote
I believe that more time, money, attention should be spent on what is already working well in the public schools.

If it were working so well there would be no need for NCLB, remedial courses in college and teacher fears of being held accountable.



I believe the NCLB is a good idea.....and it might just provide a better ps system..I have said all along that it is flawed.

That has been my point from day one.

We are not afraid of being accountable, BT. I don't hear/see that where I work.

Perhaps the educators in your community feel that way.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 19, 2008, 03:45:24 PM
sir`s I understand what your saying, remove the job security and make it performance base and natural selection will weedout the bad teachers.

close....I'm not saying do away with it, I'm saying do away with making it near impossible to fire a teacher.  A distinct difference, since the good teachers are not in jeapordy of being fired for.....doing good work, which in and of itself would be counter productive to both the school and to the children's education


Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: kimba1 on March 19, 2008, 04:03:49 PM
but how about attracting good teachers?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 19, 2008, 04:12:05 PM
How about it?  What's the dissentive, that doesn't exist in any other job market, trying to attract potentially good employees?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Brassmask on March 19, 2008, 05:10:33 PM
but how about attracting good teachers?


The problem you run into is there is no way to factually discern who is and isn't a "good" teacher.

Bad teachers can pass poor students.

The way to solve the teaching situation is to have classrooms run by two teachers of equal years of service but do NOT increase class sizes.  In fact, lower them even more.

Also, we must increase the base pay of every teacher across the country and make the positions more desirable in terms of compensation to people who might like to do the job but don't want to work for pennies and get shot and deal with 40 teenagers all day.

Education should be priority A1Prime.  Every other issue should come like 5th after education four times.  It will cost more money and more money and more money.  Get over it.  Do without a few more bombs to kill kids in other countries.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 19, 2008, 05:12:49 PM
Also, we must increase the base pay of every teacher across the country and make the positions more desirable in terms of compensation to people who might like to do the job but don't want to work for pennies and get shot and deal with 40 teenagers all day.

Interestingly enough, teacher pay in private schools is lower than that in public schools, and there are teachers fighting to get jobs in those private schools.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 19, 2008, 05:29:37 PM
but how about attracting good teachers?

The problem you run into is there is no way to factually discern who is and isn't a "good" teacher.  Bad teachers can pass poor students.

But not pass standardized tests.  That will FACTUALLY help demonstrate who is and isn't a good teacher

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Brassmask on March 19, 2008, 05:38:31 PM
but how about attracting good teachers?

The problem you run into is there is no way to factually discern who is and isn't a "good" teacher.  Bad teachers can pass poor students.

But not pass standardized tests.  That will FACTUALLY help demonstrate who is and isn't a good teacher

Well, as we've seen with [Every Poor] Left Behind, that means that teachers can or must then spend every day teaching kids how to pass those standardized tests so they either A) don't lose their jobs or B) don't risk their school losing some kind of funding rather than having their kids just learn and discuss and grow.

But you have to be worried about that ten cents your out each month, right?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 19, 2008, 05:41:30 PM
 ::)
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on March 19, 2008, 05:50:54 PM
The main problem with declining performance in US schools is NOT the fault of the teachers. By and large, teachers are better qualified than ever, textbooks are better written, school libraries have lots more books, and pretty much every school and every student has access to the Internet.

The problem is that never before in the history of the planet has everyone had access to entertainment 24/7 via cable, dish or even network TV. This not only drains students' time, it prevents them from getting exercise as well as studying, and it also causes them to think that EVERYTHING they do should be entertaining. I think that, while learning vocabulary words in English or a foreign language can be sort of entertaining for some people, but not nearly as entertaining as watching teevee.

Now pretty much all kids have a cellphone, ostensibly to make them safer, but in reality,they use these to gossip with one another constantly about trivialities even more than they did when they had to wait to get home to chat on the phone.

The consumer society gives them tons to talk about: did you see him wearing FUBU? Doesn't he know that's for BLACK kids? Do you think he's turning into a wigger? Et cetera,  et cetera, et cetera, blah blah blah. In the 1950's kids studied on the schoolbus. Now they chat on cellphones.

The consumer society may be good for business, but it sure as Hell is not good for producing children and adults who think for themselves, or even think at all.

Parents are also occupied with being entertained 24/7, and surely spend a lot less time helping kids with their homework than by father and mother helped me. We got our first TV when I was 13, but my sister and I were banned from watching it after 8:00 PM, and my parents watched it mostly on weekends,

I recall spending most of the day in the summers cycling around town with my friends and most of the evenings reading all sorts of stuff: all the Hardy Boys mysteries, most of the Nancy Drews, tons of comic books, the Book of Knowledge and even a couple of Victor Hugo novels translated into Spanish. This was after I liberated myself at the age of 13 from (ugh!) Vacation Bible School, an activity expressly invented to ruin kids' summers.

During the school year, I also spent a lot of time reading and riding around.
Many of my students at the University do not seem to have ever read a single bool for amusement. I am sure some have never read a book for any reason from cover to cover.

I suggest that this is NOT the fault of teachers or the NEA, and that those who think it is have their heads firmly lodged where the Sun don't shine.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on March 19, 2008, 06:11:57 PM
Interestingly enough, teacher pay in private schools is lower than that in public schools, and there are teachers fighting to get jobs in those private schools.
=====================================================================
Here in Miami, the only ones fighting to teach in church-run public schools are those who do not have the credentials to teach in the public schools. The public schools start at around $28K, but some of the private schools pay less than $20K.
Florida is very near the bottom in pay, and Miami-Dade County has the highest cost of living in the State.

My daughter went to a private Cuban-run school through the third grade. The turnover was usually yearly: no one taught there for more than a year. No one was even halfway good at teaching math, by which I mean simple arithmetic, such as the multiplication tables. After that she went to Holy Cross Lutheran. I don't think anyone teaches there for more than a couple of years. It might be a more pleasant teaching experience. I know from my three months teaching at Miami-Jackson HS that the public schools are bloody nerve-wracking. But it is also difficult to get by on $2K a month when your rent  (forget buying a home!) is $1,100 to $1,300 a month, and now gas is $3.50 a gallon.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 19, 2008, 07:46:41 PM
Quote
We are not afraid of being accountable, BT. I don't hear/see that where I work.

Perhaps the educators in your community feel that way.

Nonsense. You have claimed repeatedly that the act is punitive in its accountability provisions. That it is unfair. That standardized tests are the problem.

So how do you measure performance other than testing?


Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 19, 2008, 07:50:44 PM
Quote
We are not afraid of being accountable, BT. I don't hear/see that where I work.

Perhaps the educators in your community feel that way.

Nonsense. You have claimed repeatedly that the act is punitive in its accountability provisions. That it is unfair. That standardized tests are the problem.

So how do you measure performance other than testing?



No, there's a difference. The WAY the act punishes is wrong. Not THAT the act punishes.

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 19, 2008, 07:58:48 PM
What would be the right way?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: fatman on March 19, 2008, 08:31:50 PM
But you have to be worried about that ten cents your out each month, right?

Ten cents?  I'm looking at my property tax statement from last year, and the portion dedicated solely to education is $1600.  That's a chunk of change in my book.  I don't feel that it's unfair to demand accountability when it's my money going to fund something, whether it's government, charity, whatever.

I went to trade school for two years, this was 7 years ago.  While I was in my classes, the instructors would run the students through remedial math, because as a welder/fitter, you need to have a good understanding of math to be successful in that field.  I kid you not Brass, there were a number of students in there who couldn't a) couldn't do anything with decimals (add, subtract, multiply, divide), it makes me wonder how the hell they balance a checkbook, and b) couldn't do anything with fractions, which is an integral part to this line of work.  If you can't read a tape, then you're up shit creek with no paddle.  That these people were passed out of high school, or awarded a GED, is ridiculous.  This is math that I learned in elementary school, not calculus, trig (which we were also expected to learn), geometry, etc.

That's just inexcusable.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: kimba1 on March 19, 2008, 08:48:48 PM
well actually
if you don`t actively use those math skills
it will go away
I forgot alot of math myself
but I retained enough to be ahead of most folks
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: fatman on March 19, 2008, 09:23:10 PM
You can use decimals and fractions every day if you so choose.  Balancing your checkbook yourself, rather than relying on a bank statement or online bank statement.

How do you plan a budget without fractions?  How do you know what 30% of  your take home is, the money that you should never pay more than for housing (or so I was taught to believe).  I'm not too sure that it's too far of a stretch to think that at least some part, and maybe a large part, of the subprime mess is because some people couldn't do some simple math, or calculate some interest.

How can you go through life that way?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: kimba1 on March 19, 2008, 09:35:05 PM
quite true
a secretary was using a caculator  to figure out 3% of 3k and she freaked when I said $90 right away.
and she has a bachelor`s degree
but It does confirm for me most folks simply dump whatever knowledge they gain unless they actually use it.
the calculator is like the spell checker it`s killing our basic skills
I rarely ever use a calculator
at least writing it out helps me work out the math.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 20, 2008, 12:13:08 AM
Also, we must increase the base pay of every teacher across the country and make the positions more desirable in terms of compensation to people who might like to do the job but don't want to work for pennies and get shot and deal with 40 teenagers all day.

Interestingly enough, teacher pay in private schools is lower than that in public schools, and there are teachers fighting to get jobs in those private schools.

Teachers are fighting to get into the public schools in our city, Ami.

Hmmm, so there ya go...can't broad stroke every situation.

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 20, 2008, 12:14:44 AM
but how about attracting good teachers?

The problem you run into is there is no way to factually discern who is and isn't a "good" teacher.  Bad teachers can pass poor students.

But not pass standardized tests.  That will FACTUALLY help demonstrate who is and isn't a good teacher



No, sirs, it will NOT demonstrate who is and who is not a good teacher. It's obvious you are not a teacher. You have not clue, with all due respect.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 20, 2008, 12:34:34 AM
 

What would be the right way?


Actually, even though the word has been used to describe what the NCLB has set into motion for teachers across the board...good or bad....I don't like to use the word( punishment ) when it comes to holding teachers accountable.

 I believe the word would be accountable....or you're out.
There are those teachers who read during class, sit at their desk and chew gum while the kids throw spit wads at each other etc.. Of course then there are those young women who rape young men. Ok....sure I would punish them in varying degrees.

I believe that the NCLB has gone overboard. The fact that ALMOST ALL teachers are negatively affected because of the act is, in reality punitive and helps very few.

The fact that principals are being pressured to get blood out of a turnip through assinine demands and threats, lends itself to the trickle down effect which also harms more than helps.
The premise of the NCLB act is a good one..I still believe that teachers who are BAD APPLES need to be exited chop chop.
I would not PUNISH ....I would simply set up a system to deal with the points that are indeed broken, assist in revamping those broken elements, as the act is trying to do...quite honestly...but I would be realistic and work with common sense.

As it is, the NCLB has been responsible for many good teachers taking a hike, many children left in the dark, and people at one another's throats within the job. The pressure to make that AYP is so great and so unreasonable, that it is PUNITIVE in nature..not proactive...reactive.

BT, there is nothing wrong with holding anyone accountable. The NCLB has not met up to it's progess report,  and with the outrageous expectations THAT I HAVE POSTED before, it simply needs adjusted.

I say, listen to teachers who know how to teach! Hire people to revamp the NCLB act that know what it means to teach a child. In the past 25 years, the school system was a hell of a lot better than it is today..sadly.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 20, 2008, 12:41:35 AM
Quote
I believe the word would be accountable....or you're out.

Sounds punitive.

And again, how do you measure performance without testing?

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 20, 2008, 01:17:47 AM
Quote
I believe the word would be accountable....or you're out.

Sounds punitive.

And again, how do you measure performance without testing?



And again, measuring performance with testing is key.
The fact that children who are not capable of making the same "grade" as some of the peers, is at the heart of the reaction of the act.
To hold ALL CHILDREN accountable to read at grade level no matter what is not reasonable.

So, we disagree in so many aspects of this, BT.

You will not hear me on this issue....and you don't have to.

Your life hasn't been drastically impacted by the outrageous pressures to make a system 'better'.

when ..in fact....it has pressured good teachers to the point of forcing them to leave...punitive?
Not fair. Not right.

teh AYP needs to be adjusted in order to support teachers.....

There is a clear irrational reaction--call it punitive or call it punitive...it's unrealistic, and unjust.

No, perhaps I shall call the act...unjust.
There's a word....

Totally unjust, BT.
I do believe you are not in a place to throw stones, but you will anyway. Frankly, Bill, you will never truly  understand the injustice that occurs. You are not in the classroom. You are not directly affected by the illogical expectations coupled with the similarly outrageous unjust stones that are thrown at teachers who are doing the best damn job they can in the public sector.

But, you go ahead..you, Sirs and Ami...throw those stones based on a stance you hold true.

I am not going to try to explain this to you any longer, dear men. You choose to refrain from understanding me or learning about the very severly broken pieces of the NCLB act..
So...we agree to disagree..

Thanks for the chance to share my passion.

Cynthia
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 20, 2008, 02:00:25 AM
Quote
To hold ALL CHILDREN accountable to read at grade level no matter what is not reasonable.

What do you do with those that fail?
Pass them on to the next teacher or hold them back until they master the subjects?



Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 20, 2008, 02:15:46 AM
but how about attracting good teachers?

The problem you run into is there is no way to factually discern who is and isn't a "good" teacher.  Bad teachers can pass poor students.

But not pass standardized tests.  That will FACTUALLY help demonstrate who is and isn't a good teacher

No, sirs, it will NOT demonstrate who is and who is not a good teacher.  

I did not say it was the ONLY means of demonstration.....simply a significant one.  Hard to pass failing students and then have them pass standardized testing, and call yourself a "good teacher"


It's obvious you are not a teacher. You have not clue, with all due respect.  

Then, I would expect no further criticizing of Bush and the war in Iraq, since its obvious you're not in the military and apparently have no clue, with all due respect
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 20, 2008, 02:32:36 AM
Sirs,

with all due respect....again.

That's silly.

Ok....you don't understand teaching....or any real" element within the culture that is education, educating...and the schooling of children.

I find your stance on this issue to be blatantly transparent in terms of political ignorance. Your reactionary views hold no validity for me.  Your biased opinions towards anything to the political "left" aren't necessarily true. They are your opinion. I speak from fact and experience.

So, I do not have to agree, Sirs..with all due respect. Your views are not correct. You know nothing about the situation, nor do you even make sense, dear man. In terms of what is really happening in the world of teaching, you would have to stop and see that not all teachers are BAD. You seem to have such a negative thread of thougth against the public school educator. hmm, really? does that even make sense?

It does if one is so blatantly prejudiced and ready to gang up on the media driven battle scarred "little guy".

My sense of you  is that you make judgements or assume,  based on your conservative stance, that the NEA, the PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM are down for the count. Hands down..no intelligent and worthy discussion within the ranks that could possibly shed light on the issue.

 My gosh, man....why do you think that the issue is so black and white? Is your political prejudice that blind?

War is not the issue here....but you go ahead and make your silly comparisons.

But, I do respect your faith in God. Of course, this is a debate club...sandwiched in between the egos that try to rise to the occassion, but we do agree on some platforms. So, there you go....this isn't about agreeing or not agreeing..it's about one's truth. I stand strong that the NCLB ACT IS FLAWED. Period.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 20, 2008, 04:31:02 AM
Ok....you don't understand teaching....or any real" element within the culture that is education, educating...and the schooling of children.  

And you don't understand military tactics, strategies, or any "real element within the culture of war, fighting a war, and counter moving to the tactics of the enemy".

So, that must mean any criticism you have on the war is largely null and void??  Ignorant even??  You tell me, which is it? 

Why you've adopted this "one must be a teacher in order to properly opine on the education system or dare criticize the NEA", is what's obviously transparent Miss Cynthia.  In fact, I could even argue that my position of critiquing is far more objective than yours on the education system, because I'm not so intimately intertwined with both the system and its union.  Does my objective OPINION trump your professional OPINION?  Of course not.  But neither does yours trump mine



Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 20, 2008, 07:52:48 AM
Teachers are fighting to get into the public schools in our city, Ami.

Hmmm, so there ya go...can't broad stroke every situation.

Must have changed a lot in the last few years since this article (http://web.abqtrib.com/archives/news01/022001_short.shtml) was published.

Quote
SANTA FE -- New Mexico's teacher shortage -- already a major concern from Albuquerque to Zuni -- continues to worsen, with rookies dropping out, unqualified people manning more classrooms and increased turnover from year to year, according to a report released today.

And poor, rural schools, many of them already on probation for inadequate academic performance, suffer the most, says the report by the state Department of Education.

"What is true in New Mexico and is true nationally is the kids who need them (good teachers) the most, often end up with the least-qualified teachers," said Peter Winograd, a University of New Mexico professor who managed the report.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on March 20, 2008, 10:39:24 AM
The thing is that when there is a teacher shortage (or even a shortage of good teachers), both the state and private schools simply let anyone in. The way a market economy is supposed to work is that when someone with a particular skill is in short supply, you pay more. This doesn't work with teachers, because the state gets to decide who is qualified.

Too few teachers? Just make provisional certificates easier to get. If that isn't enough, Let substitutes work a higher percentage of the time. Anything but actually paying the teachers a decent salary, the kind that might enable them to buy a house where they work, for example, or to have a middle-class standard of living like other professionals,

You can't do this with airline pilots: unqualified pilots would destroy the equipment, themselves and the customers. You can't do it with garbage truck drivers: they'd destroy the trucks, then garbage would pile up on the curbs.

But teachers? they can't crash the school, and the students can't tell the difference between a good one and a bad one, and even if they do, they are not believed.


Teaching is an art, not a science. This means that you can't distinguish between a good teacher and a better one, or a mediocre one and a good one. You can eliminate the alcoholics, the sex offenders, the insane and the totally careless, but standardized tests and multiple choice tests cannot distinguish nuances.

Something similar is also true of learning.

On a multiple test exam, you can't distinguish between a person who has memorized 1000 facts, and someone who knows not only the facts, but how they relate to each other and the big picture.


Good teachers are smart. They realize that they'd be better teaching at Beach High than Ghetto City, even though the Ghetto City kids might need him more. They also realize that being a vice principal pays a lot more than being a classroom teacher, and also is a lot softer gig, filling out a few forms rather than 100 awful essays per week.


.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 20, 2008, 11:59:50 AM
Quote
Too few teachers? Just make provisional certificates easier to get. If that isn't enough, Let substitutes work a higher percentage of the time.

The judge said that was a no-no

Oh wait that only applied to home schools.

So we come full circle.

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 20, 2008, 12:10:23 PM
BINGO !!
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on March 20, 2008, 01:03:57 PM
Too few teachers? Just make provisional certificates easier to get. If that isn't enough, Let substitutes work a higher percentage of the time.

The judge said that was a no-no

Oh wait that only applied to home schools.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Home school teachers don't need certification.
The judge at most would have an effect in one of 50 states.

I was referring to the discussion of teachers in schools, not home schools taught by parents. They have no real effect on salaries of teachers or their competence.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 20, 2008, 02:52:58 PM
How much of an increase to your property taxes are you willing to shoulder in order to pay teachers what you think they are worth?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on March 20, 2008, 03:03:59 PM
How much of an increase to your property taxes are you willing to shoulder in order to pay teachers what you think they are worth?
==========================================================================================
I would need to see the figures, actually. What the total revenues are, what percentage goes to the teachers, etc.

Recently they gave the teachers a modest raise, then socked them with a new medical insurance policy, which had much higher copays and  fewer benefits, and they have been demonstrating.

About half of the $850 I pay in property taxes pay for schools, which includes an excessive number of highly paid administrators. According to the ads, profits from the State Lottery also mostly pay for schools.

I had exactly one daughter in the public schools, which she attended for a total of 3? years. I don't think I am undertaxed considering that.

I am not sure that property taxes are the best sort of taxes to pay for education. The state would be better off with some other taxes. We did have an intangibles tax on investments, but when Florida was prosperous several years ago, Jebbiebush abolished this tax, and cut back on a bunch of others.  He is increasingly seen as a bad governor, and I don't see him becoming a candidate for president, which is a good thing. Bushes suck as politicians.

They will never actually allow me to decide how much I pay for government services, so this is an entirely moot point.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 20, 2008, 03:09:19 PM
Most schools systems are funded by property taxes, and most school systems claim they are underfunded. You are correct in that a careful analysis needs to be made of how that funding is spend, whether administration is top heavy for example, but if it is being spent wisely and the teachers are still underpaid, then what?

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on March 20, 2008, 04:04:10 PM
Then. of course, they have to pay them more. We should see what they do in Europe, Taiwan, Japan and Korea, where their students score higher than ours.

Also, it is companies that benefit most from having educated employees, and perhaps they should pay a greater share, as well as taking a greater role in educating them.

It is obvious that many technical fields, auto electronics is one example, that require more intellectual skills than many college subjects. These are very poorly dealt with in trade schools. As a rule, high schools train students for pre college, or for nothing in particular. It would be best to train everyone for at least one career., in addition to basic skills that are no longer taught, such as geography, basic electronics, use of tools and such.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: kimba1 on March 20, 2008, 04:58:36 PM
 We should see what they do in Europe, Taiwan, Japan and Korea, where their students score higher than ours.


I question that hese country really do better than the U.S.
I don`t doubt the higher scores ,but I do doubt they have better education than the U.S.
A friend of mine lived in england for 2 years and said at least in the U.S. most people have the chance to get a community college education and gain skills for a better or different job
in europe that is not the case
those high score are from the top schools from children more likely of some privilege.
we hear that the U.S. illiteracy is %20 and that`s bad
but does the european countries  have it better?
it`s funny nobody ever talked about the fact  the u.s. used to be most worst than %20

it`s actually quite rare today to know somebody who can`t read nowadays
when I came to this country I knew quite a few,now only a couple.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Brassmask on March 20, 2008, 05:01:57 PM
I'm looking at my property tax statement from last year, and the portion dedicated solely to education is $1600. 

SO?  Do you want even more uneducated people working around you?

That's a chunk of change in my book.  

Not a big enough chunk since kids can't read when they leave school be caus ehtere are 40 students per student.

I don't feel that it's unfair to demand accountability when it's my money going to fund something, whether it's government, charity, whatever.

Don't you vote?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: fatman on March 20, 2008, 05:25:03 PM
SO?  Do you want even more uneducated people working around you?

No.  I want the people around me to have an adequate education, which evidently at least some are not getting from public schools.  If they choose to further their education through college, trade school, or an apprenticeship, they should feel free to do so.  The means are there.  However, if they can't do basic math or read a book, that kind of limits their options.  Why should I have to continue to support failure with my tax dollars?  Isn't that one of the many reasons people are against the Iraq War?

Not a big enough chunk since kids can't read when they leave school be caus ehtere are 40 students per student.

I've never bought into the rationale of class size.  When I was in elementary school in the mid to late 80's, the school had four classrooms, with four teachers and roughly 150 students.  Classroom I was first and second grade, Classroom II was second and third grade,   Classroom III was fourth and fifth grade, and Classroom IV was fifth and sixth grade.  Most of us that went to that school graduated.  Some didn't.  I'll tell you one thing though, if you couldn't read the material or do the math, you didn't get passed.  Period.  Having an oversized classroom is no more of an excuse for passing a student unable to meet the requirements of that grade than it is for a Child Protective Services caseworker to let a kid die of neglect due to a large caseload, or for a murderer to go out and kill again because his Parole Officer had too many people on his caseload.  The argument doesn't fly.  The accountability at the school is with the teacher and the Administration.  Sometimes that's unfair, but that's the system.  When there are people out there with High School diplomas who can't read or add, the blame is rightfully going to fall onto the teachers.

Don't you vote?

Yes, and while I usually vote in favor of school levies (for education), I almost always vote no for bonds (buildings and maintenance).  Voting is not the only way to expect accountability, especially for a bureaucracy like most school systems have become.  I have had very good teachers, and I have had extremely lousy ones, the ones that stick in my mind are the ones that the students knew the course material better than the teacher did.  Teaching has become something much like the armed forces, a sacred cow that can't be criticized or accountability expected of, lest you harm the reputation of soldiers or teachers (that's an extremely broad stroke, but I think you'll understand what I'm getting at).
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on March 20, 2008, 07:12:54 PM
I question that hese country really do better than the U.S.
I don`t doubt the higher scores ,but I do doubt they have better education than the U.S.
A friend of mine lived in england for 2 years and said at least in the U.S. most people have the chance to get a community college education and gain skills for a better or different job
in europe that is not the case
those high score are from the top schools from children more likely of some privilege.
================================
The scores given are not for he entire population, but just those that are still i school to be tested. So those in school do better, but we have more in school, where they are mostly mediocre students. I have been teaching mediocre students for 30 years.

I can attest to the fact that foreign languages are taught better in Western Europe than in the US.

English language instruction in Japan is a joke. Japanese English teachers seem to speak 'Eengrees', a type of English only spoken by other Japanese teacher of English. Those who really want to speak English well in Japan and Taiwan go to "Cram schools" with British, American and Canadian teachers who force them to pronounce English intelligibly.

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: kimba1 on March 20, 2008, 07:31:16 PM
have you seen the show 30 days?
it by the guy who did supersize me
in one episode they had a guy go to india to work in a call desk
the trainer spoke not just english ,but perfect american english
those guys in india are speaking better american than us.

about western europe
it kinda makes people will learn multiple language.since the countries are so small they have a greater need to know other languages
the only place with a need to speak another language in the U.S. is the southern borders
but unfortunately not all of those place are willing to learn.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 20, 2008, 11:55:33 PM
but how about attracting good teachers?

The problem you run into is there is no way to factually discern who is and isn't a "good" teacher.  Bad teachers can pass poor students.

But not pass standardized tests.  That will FACTUALLY help demonstrate who is and isn't a good teacher

No, sirs, it will NOT demonstrate who is and who is not a good teacher.  

I did not say it was the ONLY means of demonstration.....simply a significant one.  Hard to pass failing students and then have them pass standardized testing, and call yourself a "good teacher"


It's obvious you are not a teacher. You have not clue, with all due respect.  

Then, I would expect no further criticizing of Bush and the war in Iraq, since its obvious you're not in the military and apparently have no clue, with all due respect

 
And I would expect NO further criticism or praise in the direction of the public schools, teachers and the NCLB act since it is obvious that you know nothing about the details within. .with all due respect. I am a good teacher.  Your tactic to throw a low blow in my direction is childish, and frankly, shows your lack of taste, Sirs.  I am surprised at your comment.

People  seem to be stuck on one element that stains the thread throughout their carpet of posts.....and that is....if the child is not retained, or if the student  fails to pass a test, or if a young teenager does not graduate from High School, that it is the fault of the teacher, solely?.   Not always accurate.

I suppose my argument is this;
Such failures are not necessarily about bad teaching. Your leap of bias and your very transparent political stance, only project your lack of knowledge on the subject. The NCLB act has made a decent attempt to help children become literate and viable citizens in this country. I see that. But, why? There is a great need to heal the PS system.  But, the unrealistic and unjustly punitive points stemming from the act itself have not helped the situation, as I have seen it. In fact, it has caused the system to take several steps back on the chalk line.  I would love to see our school system "work" better for all.
Some European schools have a consistent and manageable system in place, because they have stayed the course. They obviously use tried and true, highly operational programs that have apparently worked for all. The support of the community, the expectations, the fact that all teachers are respected and are already good enough make for a good lookin place to hang one's pencil and pad. 
Within the public school system these days, the only thing constant is the change in methodology, theory, and practice. Change is fine, don?t? get me wrong, Doctors must learn the newest methods for healing in order to save lives, But in this system we change the way we approach educating our children sometimes few months!!...oh, and not to mention the amount of paper work we must fill out for the sake of the NCLB.

We are trained in something called Baldrige, (a business management system), then a few months later trained to teach using Balanced Literacy and/or Four block, then in math, we are trained in Terc Investigations one year, Everydaymath the next, or/and Wilson and the Fundations program..... and on and on---all within a two year period of time, and sometimes the changes come within a trimester.

Ok, well and fine. Good programs, viable, usable and rearch based.
However, the challenge is that we are not encouraged to use such programs for any length of time to make a difference.
  Soon there will be another new program to learn! All of this continues to be based on a mandate of the NCLB (reading first schools). One change after another, one more regulation after another---- year after year.  I have seen this for at least 8 years in a row now..
The schools are revamping, changing and doing the best they can to catch up..and you all knock us down for a job not well done. Not fair. Unjust, and wrong...


The newest regulation;  teachers must teach only 3 children at a time for 30 minutes a day for a differentiated instruction time. Those 3 children need the most help.
The idea sounds great. Who wouldn?t want to have a smaller student-teacher ratio? But the devil's detailing is in the timing; 30 minutes a day servicing only 3 kids!! period. We have only so many "minutes" a day to service all kids in all subject areas..and those other subject areas must also provide differentiated instruction time in groups of 3. (math, writing).
Ok, then, how do we meet the needs of the other 4-10 challenged kids? They deserve an education. They need one on one instruction with fidelity to program via quality intervention.

BUT... instead? ThEY FALL BEHIND!
In the past, we were able to teach 5-6 kids at a time. We were allowed to use the best methods we learned in college. Those were the days. The good old days when taught all children, all of the time, in all subject areas.


All of these crazy and  unreasonalbe regulations stem from the trickle down effect of the NCLB act. Period.

So, Who's at fault? Who's to blame for changing our path to do it the NCLB way or the highway? Not the teacher's fault! There are so many details within our daily routine that people are not aware of, Sirs.

 We have had to put aside all the best practices in order to meet a grade. My god, it's unreasonable.
No one wants to hear such details.

Who?s at fault? I still maintain, not the teacher.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 21, 2008, 03:30:04 AM
It's obvious you are not a teacher. You have not clue, with all due respect.  

Then, I would expect no further criticizing of Bush and the war in Iraq, since its obvious you're not in the military and apparently have no clue, with all due respect (since it is obvious that you know nothing about the details within)

And I would expect NO further criticism or praise in the direction of the public schools, teachers and the NCLB act since it is obvious that you know nothing about the details within.  

Ok, so that's the deal right?  You're not to criticize the war any further and I'm not to criticize public education any longer.  Deal?


Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 21, 2008, 12:58:43 PM
It's obvious you are not a teacher. You have not clue, with all due respect.  

Then, I would expect no further criticizing of Bush and the war in Iraq, since its obvious you're not in the military and apparently have no clue, with all due respect (since it is obvious that you know nothing about the details within)

And I would expect NO further criticism or praise in the direction of the public schools, teachers and the NCLB act since it is obvious that you know nothing about the details within.  

Ok, so that's the deal right?  You're not to criticize the war any further and I'm not to criticize public education any longer.  Deal?





Oh, and by the way you are not in Iraq-fighting for our freedom, so you can't say squat in that dept either.
 ;)
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 21, 2008, 01:15:59 PM
This sums it up.
Cynthia


Making lemonade from NCLB lemons
By Monty Neill
As the impact of the "No Child Left Behind" (NCLB) legislation continues to unfold across the country, educators and child advocates face the difficult task of explaining how NCLB hurts schools instead of helps them. NCLB is the current version of the longstanding federal Elementary and Secondary Education Act (ESEA), first implemented in the 1960s.
Many education reformers, including FairTest, the group I work for, believe that NCLB is a fundamentally punitive law that uses flawed standardized tests to label schools as failures and punish them with counterproductive sanctions. It must be transformed into a supportive law that really promotes school improvement and makes good on the promise to leave no child behind. The legislation must be reconsidered and rewritten, particularly in the areas of assessment and accountability. But given the current political climate, this won't be a simple task.
Educators and advocates concerned about this law need to do three things. We need to sharpen and popularize our critique of the law's faults, develop a clear model for a new law, and build a powerful grassroots campaign that will persuade Congress to overhaul ESEA.
While opinion polls suggest most people know little about NCLB, key promises within the law have wide support. For example, the law authorizes the federal government to increase funding for the education of low-income students. It mandates that states eliminate the academic "achievement gap" that exists between different groups of students, paying particular attention to the progress of students who historically have not been well served. It also requires states, districts, and schools to find ways to educate all students successfully.
Such promises have played a key role in winning support for NCLB from some political and civil rights groups who do not share the Bush administration's agenda of privatization and hostility to public education. Understandably, some child advocates and school reformers, long frustrated with the quality of education for poor students, viewed NCLB as a potential tool to force schools to improve. Clarifying the reasons why NCLB, as currently written, will be unable to fulfill its lofty promises is a key to building a coalition that can force Congress to make changes in the law.
Sharpening the Critique
In this critique I will focus on three fundamental problems with the law: underfunding, testing, and school improvement. (Several others, like the provisions on improving teacher quality and on promoting "scientific" approaches to reading also deserve attention, but are beyond the scope of this article.)
 Underfunding . NCLB's unfunded mandate to eliminate all test-score gaps in 12 years assumes that schools by themselves can overcome the educational consequences of poverty and racism. Not only has the federal government failed to meet the social, economic, and health-related needs of many children, but NCLB itself does not authorize nearly enough funding to meet its new requirements. The Bush administration has sought almost no increase in ESEA expenditures for the coming year. The current education appropriations bill before Congress would underfund the already inadequate authorized spending levels by $8 billion. Meanwhile, states are suffering their worst budget crises since World War II and cutting education as well as the social programs needed by low-income people.
 Testing . The one-size-fits-all assessment requirements-annual testing in reading and math and periodic testing in science-and the accountability provisions attached to them are rigid, harmful, and ultimately unworkable. They will promote bad educational practices and deform curricula in significant ways. In the end, they will lower, not raise, standards for most students. For example, the assessment requirements will lead to further devaluing of non-tested subjects like social studies, music, and art. NCLB focuses on large-scale testing, which is a poor tool for diagnosing individual students' needs and for assessing higher-order learning. The provisions of the law are turning large numbers of schools, particularly those serving low-income children, into test-prep programs. The testing regime punishes the teachers who choose to work in the nation's most under-resourced schools and fosters the inaccurate view that most of the nation's public schools are failing. In the end, NCLB will enforce lower standards, not high quality learning.
 School improvement. Estimates by groups such as the National Conference of State Legislators suggest some 70 percent of the nation's schools will be declared "in need of improvement" before the decade is over and thus be subject to escalating sanctions. Florida reported that 87 percent of its schools and all of its districts failed to make "adequate yearly progress" (AYP) in 2002-03. NCLB's punitive test-and-label approach to accountability is the foundation for an equally ineffective approach to school improvement. The first step toward improving schools, according to NCLB, is to allow parents to transfer their children to a school with higher test scores. But it does not guarantee that classroom seats will be available. In Chicago, 240,000 students are in schools "in need of improvement," but the district says it has only 1035 spaces. In part, this is because a majority of Chicago schools are not making AYP. In districts where some schools are labeled "failing" and some are not, the new law may force increased class sizes by transferring students without creating new capacity. The Bush administration has said overcrowding does not matter. NCLB does not invest in building new schools in failing districts, nor does it make rich districts open their doors to students from poor districts. The transfer regulations are designed to manufacture a demand for alternative school placements and ultimately to transfer funds and students to profit-making private school corporations through vouchers. For those left behind, the next step is to "reconstitute" the school. Among the list of options in the law are to turn it into a charter school or privatize its management. These marketplace "solutions" to the difficult and complex problems of schooling will not improve the public school system, but may lead to dismantling it.
A New NCLB
Any response to the punitive nature of the NCLB must be balanced by recognition that there is a genuine need for helpful school accountability, particularly for those schools that serve communities of color and economically disenfranchised families. Opposition to NCLB doesn't mean opposing any and all forms of accountability. Rather, the law should be used to advocate for a way to develop genuine accountability that supports improved student learning and schools.
Advocates must work on several levels to move accountability beyond punitive tests and toward authentic forms of assessment that support teaching and learning practices that genuinely engage students. This can best be done at the school level through teachers and students collaborating with parents and communities to implement portfolios, exhibitions, student-led conferences, and other assessment strategies that promote real improvements in teaching and learning. Most importantly, teachers must use powerful "formative" assessments that can provide precise, useful feedback to each student. While this will be a difficult task in the face of high-stakes testing, there are schools and districts around the nation working in this direction.
On district and state levels, it can mean finding ways to use more authentic performance assessments that evaluate students on what they are capable of doing instead of how well they fill in a bubble sheet. The states of Maine and Nebraska are currently devising state assessment systems that will incorporate local assessments and minimize the role of state standardized testing. NCLB does allow such state assessment programs. By including local, particularly classroom-based data, much richer and more useful information will be included in accountability programs. While even these assessments can be misused in a wrong-headed accountability structure, they are worth exploring.
Ultimately, efforts at the local and state levels to make the best of a bad situation are unlikely to succeed unless Congress overhauls the federal law. Education reformers must work to amend ESEA or demand a new law that truly supports high-quality education for all. We must insist that federal and state governments provide equitable funding to all students. And we need a law that does not punish schools, educators, or students for problems they cannot resolve alone.
The law must change from one that relies primarily on standardized tests to one that encourages quality assessments and promotes better instructional practices in classrooms. Congress should cut back the amount of mandatory testing, prohibit the use of high-stakes testing for graduation or grade promotion, and encourage schools to focus on the use of multiple forms of assessment (as the law calls for but the Bush administration ignores). It should appropriate money to help teachers improve their classroom assessment practices.
Participatory democracy-local parents, educators, students, and other residents working together to make policy decisions about the school-should be at the heart of public school accountability systems. Ideally, information about student achievement would come primarily from student classroom work. This data would be combined with other important academic and non-academic information (including limited standardized testing) about schools to make decisions about school programs and student progress. Teachers and parents would collaborate to determine the areas on which to focus improvement efforts.
Similarly, there must be fundamental changes in NCLB's sanctions and school improvement strategies. En-couraging parents and students to flee schools and closing some down will not improve education. At the same time, we need to accept that schools that have adequate resources and are not doing a good job even with extra support should not be allowed to continue to miseducate children.
Keeping pressure on low-performing schools will undoubtedly raise a vast array of thorny issues: Even if funding is not adequate, cannot many schools still do better? How much better? Can accountability procedures avoid blaming schools for things they do not control while holding them responsible for what they can do? At what point and with what evidence should decisions to intervene in a specific school be made? If inflexible numerical triggers lead to "interventions" that undermine real education, will the absence of such triggers allow schools, districts, and states to continue to miseducate some children? Is there a way to pressure states to foster real equity without scapegoating local schools and districts? What should the role of the federal government be in promoting school improvement, and how much money should the federal government be contributing to education?
We already know a lot about how to create socially supportive and intellectually engaging environments for teachers and students. It takes hard work and resources. School communities need to have unity around goals and teaching practices. And schools need quality teachers, adequate support staff, engaging multicultural curriculum, useful assessments, adequate planning time and staff development, significant parent involvement, small class sizes, quality before- and after-school programs, early childhood education, and quality leadership.
 
 
Building a Reform Campaign
If there's any chance of changing this law in the next several years, we will have to build a powerful national alliance among education and civil rights organizations and strengthen our public engagement. Advocates can start by recognizing there is wide public concern around some key components of NCLB:
 The one-size-fits-all nature of testing.

 The unfairness of making decisions about individuals or schools based just on test scores.

 The danger of teaching to the test.

We can demonstrate that the choice between historically inadequate education and test-driven "reform" is a false choice because there are other, better options.

Several national education groups are already focusing on these issues. For example, the American Association of School Administrators opposed NCLB in Congress and continues to work for changes. The annual representative assembly of the National Education Association (NEA) passed a series of resolutions opposing high-stakes testing and calling for changes in NCLB. The organization has endorsed legislation that would reduce some of NCLB's more harmful impacts. The NEA also is proposing a lawsuit against NCLB because it is an unfunded mandate.

But education organizations cannot do it alone. Individual teachers must take an active and prominent role in educating the public about the law and its negative impact. Public opinion surveys, such as the respected Phi Delta Kappan annual poll, conclude that teachers are the most respected voices in education.

Teachers can help mobilize the public to support change. Educators especially need to reach out to parents, who are likely to turn to teachers for information. Parents can speak credibly in public. In non-union states, where teachers who speak out can more easily be fired, the public role of parents may be more important. Because parents are only occasionally well-organized, educator groups may need to provide support to parents, while allowing parents to retain their autonomy.

Civil rights groups also can be a powerful force for changing NCLB. Some spoke out against NCLB when it was in Congress. Recently, the Children's Defense Fund (the creators of the slogan, "leave no child behind") has raised concerns about the overuse and misuse of tests in NCLB. The educational platforms of the National Conference of Black Legislators and the NAACP both oppose high-stakes testing for individuals and warn against teaching to the test. Few members of the Congres-sional Black and Hispanic Caucuses voted for the new law. Virtually all civil rights groups oppose privatization, and they call for increased funding and equity.

To be sure, the civil rights community remains somewhat divided on NCLB. Support from some civil rights activists, such as the Citizens Commission on Civil Rights, was important to passage of NCLB. Some view the new federal law as a powerful step toward ensuring that states and districts address long-ignored educational needs that have led to weak education for many students. Sanctions, they say, are necessary to force action. High-stakes tests for schools and districts appear to guarantee some sort of results.

The members and constituencies of education and civil rights groups are the people most affected by NCLB and have the most to gain from changing the law. But a successful campaign will require overcoming what are, at times, very different perspectives on the use of tests in high-stakes school accountability.

Over the next few years, an ESEA reform alliance will have to work to resolve these differences. There will need to be intense discussions with not just the national leaders of education and civil rights groups, but with classroom teachers, parents, and community activists. A key question remains unanswered: How best should the federal government intervene to help build a school system that serves to build a multiracial democracy in this country?

NCLB is a time bomb ticking at the center of the public education system. Unless we want to find ourselves standing amidst the rubble, we need to get to work.

Monty Neill (monty@fairtest.org) is the executive director of the National Center for Fair & Open Testing (FairTest) in Cambridge, Mass. See www.fairtest.org for more information.

Fall 2003



http://www.rethinkingschools.org/special_reports/bushplan/nclb181.shtml
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: kimba1 on March 21, 2008, 02:07:04 PM
funny part about NCLB if there is some really good budgeted programs in it
for the poor performing student it has a alotted budget for tutoring.
but strangely the setup encourages school to not use it for fear the budget will be lost.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 21, 2008, 02:11:04 PM
More excuses.

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 21, 2008, 02:12:04 PM
Oh, and by the way you are not in Iraq-fighting for our freedom, so you can't say squat in that dept either.  
 ;)

Yep, you're right.  I won't criticize the war either.  So, deal?

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 21, 2008, 02:37:55 PM
NCLB needs to be fine tuned. Period.

I rest on that point.

Maybe Obama will be the president to resolve such issues, if not Obama, then Hillary.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 21, 2008, 02:49:11 PM
And meanwhile the children will be cheated as the status quo is protected.

And so it goes.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 21, 2008, 02:53:39 PM
And meanwhile the children will be cheated as the status quo is protected.

And so it goes.

No, not right.

The children will be given more. Not cheated, BT.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on March 21, 2008, 03:16:44 PM
Does anyone really think that this discussion will have any effect on education anywhere?

I tend to think it won't.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: kimba1 on March 21, 2008, 03:25:14 PM
maybe alittle
as we all talk about this were learn more about it
this talk has confirm and disprove certain aspects on the subject for me
it`ll definately effect how I`ll vote
and since less and less people vote ,My vote has more weight than it really deserves.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 21, 2008, 04:08:58 PM
Quote
No, not right.

The children will be given more. Not cheated, BT.

Yeah right. None of the expert articles with which you wholeheartedly agree offers any alternate solutions to the problems.

So yes the children suffer while turf is protected.

 
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on March 21, 2008, 04:22:37 PM
Just because there is a problem does not mean that there IS a solution.

Remember, it is okay to give tests that suggest that Asian kids outperform White kids, or even that Jewish kids outperform Catholics and Protestants- that would require fiddling with the data and pulling old the GoldXXX and the XXXBergs-, But we don;t want to see data that Black kids do worse than other kids.

Even though they do. Why seems to be unknown, but if the data shows this, then it won't be accepted.
And it will show this. So they fiddle with the data until it shows less of this, and then the solutions don't work, and we are back to Square One.

The most probable reason is that Black kids, regardless of social class, don't read books and have tiny vocabularies and therefore do not understand the tests. That is my hypothesis, based on years of teaching and seeing what people have to sell in yard sales. You want books- go to Jewish neighborhoods. You want action movies, then it's Black neighborhoods.

Gay gentrified neighborhoods are an exception: there is no racial difference, other than Black people have a lot more books about and by Black authors.

There are not enough Chinese or Indians selling in yard sales to come to any conclusions abou what they read or how much.

If we really wanted a solution, we'd check out to see what they do in Canada, France, Italy, and perhaps the Netherlands and Germany.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 21, 2008, 04:27:30 PM
There are not enough Chinese or Indians selling in yard sales to come to any conclusions abou what they read or how much.

You need to go to the local Asian markets and look in the used items section.

If we really wanted a solution, we'd check out to see what they do in Canada, France, Italy, and perhaps the Netherlands and Germany.

You do realize that several of those spend less per pupil than the US does? What if checking these other countries brings people to the conclusion that we spend too much on our school system?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 21, 2008, 04:34:29 PM
Does anyone really think that this discussion will have any effect on education anywhere?

I tend to think it won't.

Not when people like Sirs and BT turn a blind eye to what is happening on the front lines.

Children are being left behind more so than ever.

NO amount of beating a dead horse will help them to see this.

I have a feeling that their need to debate this issue rises from a need to flex some sort of ego muscle. hmmm...passionate about education?
I know they are not.

So, they will rebuke and fight back in order ....to have a last word...which I will let them both have. BUt they are wrong. Very very wrong.
I see right through them both. ...hard core debaters? I suppose so.

Ok boys, pack up your guns and head back to the bar. You're going to want the last word, I am sure.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 21, 2008, 04:40:47 PM
If we really wanted a solution, we'd check out to see what they do in Canada, France, Italy, and perhaps the Netherlands and Germany.

You do realize that several of those spend less per pupil than the US does? What if checking these other countries brings people to the conclusion that we spend too much on our school system?

 :o   Wash your mouth out with soap, Ami
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on March 21, 2008, 04:46:24 PM
You need to go to the local Asian markets and look in the used items section.

There are no local Asian markets in Miami: there are a few mainlanders selling new schlock at several flea markets.
Chinese are maybe 50,000 Taiwanese, HongKongers and Mainranders in the area. Indians cannot have more than 10,000.

Quote from: Xavier_Onassis on Today at 03:22:37 PM
If we really wanted a solution, we'd check out to see what they do in Canada, France, Italy, and perhaps the Netherlands and Germany.

You do realize that several of those spend less per pupil than the US does? What if checking these other countries brings people to the conclusion that we spend too much on our school system?

I suspect the teachers are better paid, but the administrators are paid less, there are more trade schools, and less is spent on school maintenance, because the buildings are better built in the first place.
I question that cutting everyone's salary would actually improve schools. It's what teachers DO and KNOW that is important.

Most Swedish and Dutch teachers know English well, for example.
Japanese English teachers are largely unable to communicate with any English-speaking person. They do teach how to write English, but as for speaking it, they are pretty much hopeless. Only rarely have they attended a cram school.

Teachers get a lot more respect in Europe.

I insist that the entertainment industry ad the way we tend to worship even stupid celebrities is a major detriment to education in the USA.


Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on March 21, 2008, 04:49:57 PM
You do realize that several of those spend less per pupil than the US does? What if checking these other countries brings people to the conclusion that we spend too much on our school system?

=============================
I'd wager that the PRC's suppression of Tibetans will be a far cheaper and far less time-consuming activity than our current supression of insurrectionists in Iraq or even Afghanistan.

But does that mean that if we just cut funds by half, we'd be more successful?

If this is a statistic, it is a meaningless one.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 21, 2008, 06:08:04 PM
Does anyone really think that this discussion will have any effect on education anywhere?

I tend to think it won't.

Not when people like Sirs and BT turn a blind eye to what is happening on the front lines.

Children are being left behind more so than ever.

NO amount of beating a dead horse will help them to see this.

I have a feeling that their need to debate this issue rises from a need to flex some sort of ego muscle. hmmm...passionate about education?
I know they are not.

So, they will rebuke and fight back in order ....to have a last word...which I will let them both have. BUt they are wrong. Very very wrong.
I see right through them both. ...hard core debaters? I suppose so.

Ok boys, pack up your guns and head back to the bar. You're going to want the last word, I am sure.


Once again, this isn't about you.

It is about the kids and the future of this country that they will inherit.

Try to focus.

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: kimba1 on March 21, 2008, 06:48:08 PM
I can only answer why asian kids have good grades maybe
they don`t have much downtime.
the ones who have good grades have no social life .
most kids with good grades have afterschool activities to tie up their free time
hang out with up to no good friends is not an option .
I had tons of freetime in my youth and it`s a miracle I never got arrested
I came close too many times.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on March 21, 2008, 07:58:20 PM
Once again, this isn't about you.

It is about the kids and the future of this country that they will inherit.

Try to focus.

===================================
Well Jeez, I AM focusing.
But I can't make TV inaccessible to kids until they have read books ands studied.

If I had absolute power, I could Guar-un-tee better results, but I am sure I would piss a lot of people off, and of course, no one is going to grant be any power, let alone absolute power.

Education in this country, which has always been anti-intellectual, is going down the tubes.
The 1.2 billion people of China will eventually dominate this planet because (a) they will master their problems before we master ours, and (b) there are four times as many of them, so only 1/4th of them need to beat all 300 million of is. This will take a long time, and it isn't all bad. We will end up like Germany is now, large, but not dominant.

Being dominant is probably not good for anyone, not us or even the Chinese/
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 21, 2008, 08:03:16 PM
On a completely unrelated tangent, I have to wonder if this thread is coming close to the all time leader in postings and/or viewings     8)
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 21, 2008, 08:06:16 PM
Quote
Well Jeez, I AM focusing.
But I can't make TV inaccessible to kids until they have read books ands studied.

Actually you have offered suggestions and pointed out what was different when you were coming up.

Then again you haven't posted essays from the NEA that are high on criticism but short on alternatives.

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on March 21, 2008, 08:21:44 PM
I am not a member of the NEA. I teach in a private college and they don't allow us to be represented by any union. I work for peanuts, because as an Anglophone Spanish professor in a field dominated by "minority" Hispanics, that is my lot. So I save all the money I can, invest it, and shall soon retire with enough to live as comfortably as I choose.

I favor unions, and tried to start one for 13 years, but it si not f*cking allowed in this country for me to be represented by any union. My colleagues are gutless and refuse to strike, and so we are screwed. Professors ands teachers need to be organized and need to talk to one another about what the future of this country is going to be. But many are as wrapped up in mortgages, debts greedyass wives and consumerist kids as everyone else, and this rarely happens. No ees mi fault.

I have elaborated what the problems are. The consumer society, 24/7 entertainment, kids that have no desire to read, parents that also have never read a single book, ad a culture that is decidedly anti-intellectual, and think of intellectuals as someone like Dr. Emmett Brown, the weirdo character of Back to the Future, with wild hair and raving dialog no one can understand.

If you really want to know what the NEA wants, ask them, not me. I have not been a member since we lost the union without one damned contract in 1988.

Perhaps I have better solutions than them, but I am just one guy and I am going to retire. There are many of them, though I doubt there are enough. About a third of the country has bee co0nvinced by assholes like Rush that the NEA is the devil incarnate.

 
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 21, 2008, 09:40:28 PM
Quote
If you really want to know what the NEA wants, ask them, not me. I have not been a member since we lost the union without one damned contract in 1988.

perhaps you missed the post. Cynthia has been posting the essays.And you apparently didn't read my entire post to which you replied, because then you would have noticed that i responded to Cynthia as well.

The observation that it isn't about you seems to apply to you as well.

BTW I haven't listened to Rush in quite a few years maybe pre-oxycontin.

I'm sure some people listen to him because he is still on the air. It ain't me babe. I have no drive time. I telecommute.

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 21, 2008, 09:44:04 PM
On a completely unrelated tangent, I have to wonder if this thread is coming close to the all time leader in postings and/or viewings     8)

I was wondering the same thing, Sirs. ;) :D ;D 8)
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 22, 2008, 12:23:41 PM
These are just a few examples of why the NCLB needs "work".
And why it works.

Secretary of Education Dr. Veronica Garc?a?s Remarks
2007 AYP Announcement
August 3, 2007
Painted Sky Elementary School Cafeteria
3:00 pm
 Thank you Principal Woodard and CONGRATULATIONS to Painted Sky Elementary for your tremendous
achievement.
I would, again, like to recognize your incredible staff, the parents, and students. In addition to Painted Sky
Elementary, Alamosa and MaryAnn Binford Elementaries also came off of designation making three for the
West Mesa Cluster!
? New Mexico had a total of 14 schools that came off of designation by making AYP two years in a
row. Please help me in congratulating the following schools:
? Painted Sky Elementary
? Alamosa Elementary
? MaryAnn Binford Elementary
? Freedom High School
? B.T. Washington Elementary, Hobbs
? La Promesa Elementary, Belen
? Tularosa Elementary, Tularosa
? Apache Elementary, Farmington
? Alcalde Elementary, Espanola
? Desert View Elementary, Gadsden
? Arrey Elementary, T or C
? A:Shiwi Elementary, Zuni
? Newcomb Elementary, Central Consolidated
? Sunset Elementary, Roswell
? I also want to congratulate every student, teacher, parent, principal, superintendent, and Board of Education
member of schools that made AYP in 2007.
? Schools achieving AYP met requirements in up to 37 areas including higher student proficiency.
? As you know, proficiency requirements increase each year as we move toward 100% student proficiency in
2014.
? New Mexico?s education reform efforts support student achievement. In 2007, the Fordham Foundation
ranked New Mexico 2nd in the nation for education reform.
? We now have 94% of all core courses taught by Highly Qualified Teachers.
? We will continue efforts to improve teacher support. This year we received over $6 million from the 2007
legislature for teacher support and professional development programs.
? New Mexico has also been nationally recognized for our high academic standards by the Fordham
Foundation, the American Federation of Teachers, Education Week, and Newsweek.
? Most recently, the U.S. Department of Education conducted a comparative study of the National
Assessment for Educational Progress and state assessments. New Mexico standards and cut scores
ranked in the top ten overall.
? Unlike some states, New Mexico did not play the game of setting low proficiency levels in order to increase
numbers of schools making AYP.
? When New Mexico students achieve proficiency in Math, Reading, and now Science on our Standards
Based Assessment, they are nationally competitive and can succeed not only in New Mexico but
nationwide.
? In 2007, approximately 42% of our schools made AYP. We commend these schools and communities
and will be looking to them to identify successful strategies.
? It is also important to note that 84 schools missed meeting AYP by only one of up to 37 indicators. That
means that these 84 schools could have missed just the participation requirements in only one subgroup.
? It is important to hold schools accountable but I do not believe that AYP measures are the best way to do it.
? The Spirit of No Child Left Behind is admirable.
? Unfortunately, its implementation lacks fairness.
? Some schools missed AYP due to student proficiency numbers. Others may have had just one student that
did not complete the test causing the school to miss participation requirements.
? A school with low enrollment may have met proficiency but did not make AYP because one senior
graduated over the summer.
? For example, the following 13 schools met or exceeded proficiency targets for all students and still
did not make AYP including :
? Montessori of the Rio Grande, Albuquerque
? Twenty-First Century, Albuquerque
? Animas High School, Animas
? Vista Nueva High School, Aztec
? Dixon Elementary, Espanola
? Walatowa Charter High School, Jemez Valley
? Lake Arthur High School, Lake Arthur
? Mosquero High School, Mosquero
? Mountainair High School, Mountainair
? Quemado High School, Quemado
? Taos Cyber Magnet, Taos
? Tatum High School, Tatum
? Wagon Mound High School, Wagon Mound
? It is critical for schools, parents, students, and communities to understand that AYP status does not give a
complete picture of school success or improvement.
? Community members, I ask that you focus on student proficiency rates at your schools. Parents, I ask that
you focus on your individual children rather than the potentially misleading AYP designation.
? No Child Left Behind falls short.
? A Pass/Fail AYP designation does not adequately describe a school?s success especially when a school is
making forward progress with student proficiency.
? No Child Left Behind measures schools on a single assessment that only targets math and reading. New
Mexico has added a science assessment. But this still risks narrowing curriculum.
? No Child Left Behind does not recognize growth. For example, we compare one third grade class to the third
grade class the following year. Comparing classes of different students does not allow us to track individual
student or cohort progress from one year to the next.
? Finally, No Child Left Behind does not appropriately recognize factors impacting English Language
Learners, Special Education students, or our bilingual students.
? For example, New Mexico?s English Language Learners must take the math test their first year. New
Mexico?s high math standards require the reading of word problems, analysis, and proof of work.
? We can also not deny the incredible impact of poverty on student learning and the severe lack of funding for
the implementation of No Child Left Behind.
 The Governor, I, and New Mexico?s education leaders are hopeful that the reauthorization of No Child Left
Behind will address these issues.
 Again, student proficiency in math, reading, and science are the most important part of the AYP
announcement. Please be in contact with your schools on the progress each school is making in student
proficiency.
 Parents and community members, your involvement is key to improving student achievement in New
Mexico. I encourage you to discuss your school?s AYP status with your teachers and principals.
 Focus on student proficiency and work closely with teachers, principals, and school boards toward
educational excellence in your communities.
Regardless of the issues with No Child Left Behind, New Mexico will continue to hold schools accountable,
to set the bar high for our students, to work toward an aligned system, and to ultimately ensure that all New
Mexico students are prepared for success in college or career when they graduate from a public school.
 I want to assure you that despite the technical difficulties we experienced with the report formats and data
displays; neither the data quality nor the student work was compromised.
 I want to thank the districts, schools, communities and the media of New Mexico for their patience.
 Thank you for your support.

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 22, 2008, 12:44:20 PM
Community organizing creates a new form of accountability
Test scores are just one tool to hold schools accountable

by Eva Gold and Elaine Simon

"Accountability" is the rallying cry these days for many concerned about improving public schools. But what are people talking about when they use that term?

Behind the idea of accountability are a few key questions. Who is supposed to make sure that student achievement improves? To whom are those people responsible? What are the consequences if students or schools succeed or fail?

As researchers who have studied community organizing groups addressing urban school reform, we have identified an approach to accountability that we call public accountability. Community organizing has developed strategies for bringing school stakeholders -- parents, teachers, students, principals, community members, district and elected officials -- together in a public dialogue where they commit to take action to improve urban schools. Because commitments are publicly made, participants can hold each other accountable.
Other accountability models

However, public accountability is not the form that most people refer to when they talk about accountability. Almost all current accountability systems are based on what is called a bureaucratic model. This is a top-down approach in which the personnel of a school (teachers and principal) are accountable to the school district, state, or, with the enactment of the No Child Left Behind legislation, the federal government.

The bureaucratic model typically relies on high-stakes testing. Improvement or success are defined in terms of student outcomes on standardized tests, and accountability is enforced by rewarding or sanctioning schools (and sometimes teachers and students) depending on both absolute levels of test scores and changes over a period of time.

Another model, which is incorporated to varying degrees in current accountability systems, has been called professional accountability. The accountability of professionals can be seen when a principal takes a strong role as an instructional leader, when teachers meet to agree on standards for student work, when teachers receive in-class coaching. These kinds of activities enable a school staff to develop a collective sense of responsibility for children's learning and a shared commitment to high standards.

The professional approach relies on internal motivation. The consequences for educators are in answering to one's peers about students' success and the reputation of the school.

Although each of the predominant ways of viewing accountability can make important contributions to an accountability system, the bureaucratic and professional models, even when combined, are not sufficient for solving the problems of urban schools. These models are limited because they view schools in isolation, failing to take into account the complex social and political contexts in which schools function.

Public accountability, in dealing with the complex realities that influence student learning, broadens the range of stakeholders that contribute to school improvement.
Public accountability in action

Since 1999, Research for Action (RFA), in collaboration with the Cross City Campaign for Urban School Reform, has been studying community organizing groups across the country that are working for school improvement in low-income communities.

As an example of public accountability in action, take the organizing process that brought about a dramatic turnaround at Zavala Elementary School, which serves a very low-income Hispanic community in East Austin, Texas. Until 1990, Zavala was consistently at the bottom of district rankings on standardized test scores.

When a parent expressed anger about the discrepancy between students' low scores on state tests and the A's and B's they received from their teachers, the principal invited the parent to read the test scores aloud at a PTA meeting to raise the issue publicly. He also invited to the meeting Austin Interfaith, a community organizing group that was beginning to develop a track record for its work in schools. The confrontation provoked angry feelings among both parents and teachers, but Austin Interfaith succeeded in using the situation as an opening to start building parent and teacher involvement in Zavala.


Gradually, Austin Interfaith helped to build parent/teacher connections and brought attention to parents' concerns and ideas for school improvement. The turning point in building a collective community of action came when large numbers of parents mobilized around the urgent need for a preventive health clinic at the school. After parents developed a proposal, teachers and parents together attended countless meetings and rallies with public officials, won financing from city council, defeated opposition from the school board, and made the clinic a reality.

As Austin Interfaith continued its organizing work, other successes followed. Over the next few years, Spanish-speaking parents became more involved as the school adopted a bilingual communication policy; teachers implemented more challenging curricula such as the "Young Scientists" enrichment program; and a tutoring program and city-funded afterschool activities were put in place.

Student scores on standardized tests also rose and in 2000, Zavala was placed on the state's list of "recognized" schools, one level below the top ranking of "exemplary." In order to sustain these gains, the Zavala community continues to organize, monitor programs, and look for further ways to improve.
Communities add resources and power

The work of Austin Interfaith helped the Zavala community to build "public accountability," in which goals and priorities came from the most immediate stakeholders -- parents and teachers, in this case -- and these stakeholders developed the power to win commitments from public officials.

In this model, parents and guardians, community members, students, educators, school and district administrators, city and state elected officials, and civic leaders can all be involved in determining how "success" is measured and working to ensure that schools are moving toward greater success. Because public accountability involves the participation of large numbers of people, it also has the potential to build political will for necessary changes in policies and funding.

Locally, parent, student, and community organizing groups are building public accountability to bring improvements to schools and also joining with advocacy and other groups in citywide coalitions, such as the recent campaign by Philadelphians United to Support Public Schools.

Although "public accountability" is not a widely understood concept, we feel that it is essential for improving urban public schools. Broad-scale, collective responsibility increases and diversifies the resources available for improving schools and also permits new voices to participate in defining when a school is "successful."

http://www.thenotebook.org/editions/2003/spring/organizing.htm

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 22, 2008, 12:51:02 PM





Richardson: A teacher will be Education Secretary
There's a lot wrong with current education policy, and Gov. Bill Richardson (D-NM) unveiled one tremendous solution in his address to yesterday's RA.

Watch a video clip of Richardson's speech.

"I commit right here, I will name a teacher to be Secretary of Education," Richardson declared. After the assembly erupted into applause, Richardson asked: "Anybody interested?"

  
 
Gov. Bill Richardson (D-NM) said elected leaders cannot ignore the voice of NEA when setting education policy.
RA Today photo by: Calvin Knight  
Richardson made clear that he wanted substantive involvement from educators to address his concerns around ESEA/No Child Left Behind in its current form. High on the list is the unfair penalization of schools and the focus on testing as a means of educating children. In New Mexico, one high school failed to make adequate yearly progress because two of its students could not take the required standardized tests on the appointed day, Richardson said. "This is unfair and this is crazy," he said. "It's got to stop." NCLB "can be improved, it must be improved and when I'm elected it will be improved or it will be abolished," Richardson said.

He specified that elected leaders cannot ignore the voice of NEA when setting education policy. That means heeding NEA calls to get rid of the pass-fail model of adequate yearly progress. Also, schools must receive the financial resources they need?including professional pay for teachers and support professionals.

"If a school isn't doing well, we should help that school, not hurt it," Richardson said. Such sound decisions will only come if educators are respected, he said. There must not only be "teachers at the table, but teachers in the cabinet. We need to create educational policy from the bottom up, and not the top down."

Eradication of programs like the arts and physical education to accommodate NCLB demands must end, too, Richardson said. "Our nation's school reform has made our schools look more like reform schools with all the mindless testing and bureaucratic regulations," he said. Included in his education platform: money to improve children's health, fighting vouchers, and funding for parental involvement programs.

http://www.nea.org/annualmeeting/raaction/07richardsonspeech.html
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 22, 2008, 12:51:41 PM
http://www.abqjournal.com/opinion/guest_columns/585709opinion08-12-07.htm

Ok..that's all.

I've said my piece for now.

Peace to all.

Happy Easter.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 22, 2008, 12:56:40 PM
Gov. Bill Richardson (D-NM) said elected leaders cannot ignore the voice of NEA when setting education policy.

Sure we could......but the millions in $$$ they take from their Union members to help get certain (D-XX) Democrats elected, tends to remove that option....unfortunately for the kids.  What was all that grief we always hear about the Energy companies meeting with elected leaders in helping to shape energy policy again??


Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 22, 2008, 01:05:02 PM
Sirs,

I rest my case....the NCLB act simply needs to be fixed. I hope you read every word. There are facts in those articles that point to the broken pieces. PEriod.

I think that Obama just might be the next best president to fix what is broken.  Ironically, Richardson might be a bit of a jerkto others in his administration here in NM, but he does support major changes in the NCLB act. He's not so bad afterall, in my book.

I hope to see a democrat in the white house, frankly. Perhaps there will finally be some positive changes in education. It's time for the dems to shine in this nation.


Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 22, 2008, 01:10:45 PM
Sirs, I rest my case....the NCLB act simply needs to be fixed.

I don't have a problem with it being modified to be more effective, either.  I do have a problem with the accountability requirements being trashed, especially as it relates to the teachers.


I think that Obama just might be the next best president to fix what is broken.  

Hint, it's not "more money" that'll fix it.  Been tried already, year after year after year after year after year.



Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 22, 2008, 01:29:51 PM
Well, I hope we can see improvements all the way around.

The children deserve it.

This has always been about the children, year after year.

So, we shall see. Something has to give.

Something has to change for the sake of the kids who are being left behind as we speak, Sirs.

You don't see that. You refuse to see that. That's ok. You have every right to turn a blind eye.

But, I have tried to show the weakness that is in this act. That's all. The idea is a good one...please don't get me wrong.

It's just unjust, unfair and really don't more harm than good.

Cynthia
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on March 22, 2008, 04:32:06 PM
Hint, it's not "more money" that'll fix it.  Been tried already, year after year after year after year after year.


Yeah, sure. Teachers can't even afford to buy homes in the communities in which they live.
The money they pay teachers does not even keep up with inflation.
I have never gotten a raise of more than 4% in thirty years. Once we got 4%. all other years it was in the 1-3% range.
There wwere five years we got no raise at all. You, sirs, are full of crap.Hint, it's not "more money" that'll fix it.  Been tried already, year after year after year after year after year. You do not know what the hell you are talking about. Really.

You long for the day when you could prevent the NEA from even existing, and we can go back to awarding one Best Teacher of the year a WHOLE THOUSAND DOLLARS/
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 22, 2008, 04:42:13 PM
Hint, it's not "more money" that'll fix it.  Been tried already, year after year after year after year after year.

Yeah, sure. Teachers can't even afford to buy homes in the communities in which they live.

Well, then let's let them keep more of the money taken from them by the Unions, increase the size and scope of the Bush tax cuts, and at the suggestion of those who say CEO's need to take pay cuts to give more to their employees, let's have the Union heads take some substantial pay cuts, and spread out their $$$'s for the down-on-their luck teachers.

and we won't even start touching on the egregious waste and abuse of monies they already get.  I referenced a story just released recently about the LA Unified school district's hopelessly broken computer payroll system, where some teachers who have died, are still getting pay checks.....a year later.  Fix those things 1st, then come back to  we tax payers for still more money



Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Universe Prince on March 23, 2008, 12:40:38 PM

The money they pay teachers does not even keep up with inflation.
I have never gotten a raise of more than 4% in thirty years. Once we got 4%. all other years it was in the 1-3% range.
There wwere five years we got no raise at all. You, sirs, are full of crap.Hint, it's not "more money" that'll fix it.  Been tried already, year after year after year after year after year. You do not know what the hell you are talking about. Really.


No, actually he is correct. More money in the system is not the answer. That teachers should be paid more does not mean the system needs more money. For example here in my local school district, they have been getting extra money from the federal government because the school system here is one of the worst in the country, and they have been spending and spending on fancy new schools all over the place, and then they complained that they don't have enough money left to provide books for every student. The problem isn't a lack of funds. The problem is money management. The department of education here has spent so much money on things like coat hooks and architectural details that they've lost focus for what they really need to be doing. As best I can determine, this is a systemic problem with education in this country. Provide more money, and rather than spend it on teachers and education, it gets spent on administrators and swimming pools and tangential details. And states that spend more per student, like say New York, are not producing better educated students than other states, like say Utah. So the answer is obviously not more money.

By the way, last I checked, the average teacher salary for public schools was somewhere between $40,000 and $50,000. And last I checked, that is not poverty. From where I sit, $40,000 looks pretty good.


You long for the day when you could prevent the NEA from even existing, and we can go back to awarding one Best Teacher of the year a WHOLE THOUSAND DOLLARS/


I can't speak for Sirs, but while I would not try to prevent the NEA from existing, I wish I could prevent them from continuing to be part of the problem.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Universe Prince on March 23, 2008, 01:04:08 PM
Another reason more money isn't the solution, because it won't stop nonsense like this:

      To soothe the bruised egos of educators and children in lackluster schools, Massachusetts officials are now pushing for kinder, gentler euphemisms for failure.

Instead of calling these schools "underperforming," the Board of Education is considering labeling them as "Commonwealth priority," to avoid poisoning teacher and student morale.

Schools in the direst straits, now known as "chronically underperforming," would get the more urgent but still vague label of "priority one."

The board has spent parts of more than three meetings in recent months debating the linguistic merits and tone set by the terms after a handful of superintendents from across the state complained that the label underperforming unfairly casts blame on educators, hinders the recruitment of talented teachers, and erodes students' self-esteem.

[...]

Joseph Burke, Springfield superintendent, said that while he is not crazy about any label, he would prefer "priority one," because "It sounds nicer."

[...]

"When schools are labeled as underachieving, I don't see what it serves other than just to call them out," he said. "And it creates this antagonistic nature of, 'Well, you did something bad, and we're going to punish you for it.' . . . When the town hears underperforming, the average person thinks these students are underperforming."

But the reality is that Randolph students are underperforming, according to state benchmarks. More than half of third-graders are not proficient in math and reading. More than 40 percent of 10th-graders don't perform at grade level in English and math.
      

Whole thing at http://www.boston.com/news/education/k_12/mcas/articles/2008/03/22/seeking_a_kinder_word_for_failure/ (http://www.boston.com/news/education/k_12/mcas/articles/2008/03/22/seeking_a_kinder_word_for_failure/).

Is it just me, or would it make more sense to help the self-esteem of students by focusing on getting them educated rather than making sure they don't get their feelings hurt?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 23, 2008, 01:13:01 PM
Oh good gravy    >:(
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Universe Prince on March 24, 2008, 11:43:43 PM

Oh good gravy


Okay, but remember, you asked for it: http://www.gourmet-food-revolution.com/brown-gravy-recipe.html (http://www.gourmet-food-revolution.com/brown-gravy-recipe.html).
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: fatman on March 24, 2008, 11:48:14 PM
Quote
Okay, but remember, you asked for it: http://www.gourmet-food-revolution.com/brown-gravy-recipe.html.

That doesn't look that good.  Good gravy is made with pan drippings, reux, and beef/chicken/turkey base.  I've never put jelly in gravy, that's just too odd for me.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Universe Prince on March 25, 2008, 12:04:19 AM

Quote
Okay, but remember, you asked for it: http://www.gourmet-food-revolution.com/brown-gravy-recipe.html.

That doesn't look that good.  Good gravy is made with pan drippings, reux, and beef/chicken/turkey base.  I've never put jelly in gravy, that's just too odd for me.


I did a quick search for gravy that uses stock. If doesn't start with stock, it isn't gravy; it's just sauce. And it does use the drippings. It just leaves them in the pan. Though I'm not sure why the recipe says to drain off the fat. Why would anyone want to get rid of the good stuff? My guess is the redcurrant jelly is to add some sugar and fruit, which some people like. I can live without it.

A tip for eliminating lumps from gravy or white sauce, take the pan off the heat when you add in the flour. I don't understand why this works, but it does. Add small amount of flour at a time, with the pan off the heat source, and the flour blends with the fat and liquid much better.

Now if I could figure out a decent way to make a decent cheese sauce with swiss cheese, I'd... what? I'm off the topic? Oh.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 25, 2008, 12:26:51 AM
 :D

Cheesy!

Still more to the subject than a armchair dip and chip view.

Feeling good, valued teachers, valued children's level of performance and MOST OF ALL


Good old fashioned.....engagment with teacher/student/subject.

UP...I think you are wise beyond your years....You're quite the old timer in this land of debate gate arena....but the bottom line is what really happens with in the classroom. When you critcize "feeling good" about self and eduation..that isn't to be laughed at. There is a critical element in the teaching science that is only enhanced with such a reality. Children who do not feel good about themselves, sink ...fast. You would never have risen to your level of a debate champ without that boosted self esteem, I guess.
IT's a joke ..urban legand to think that "feeling good" is a crock. It's not.

Ok, I am not going to ask you this...Have you been in a classroom setting, lately?
But, I ask you...Have you..ok I ask you.
I will fight against all who sit and project their "idea" of education when, in fact, they have no idea of all the factors involved.
There is a "front line" in the classroom. I found that out about ten years ago. There are grunts, there are leaders, and there are arm chair generals.

But, make cheese. Make Queso...I love a good cheesy inference.

I'm all for the dippin' fun.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 25, 2008, 12:34:21 AM
It's amazing some of the tangents that can spring forth from one of these threads
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 25, 2008, 12:35:33 AM
It's amazing some of the tangents that can spring forth from one of these threads

I agree.
Keep weaving, Sirs.
 :D
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Universe Prince on March 25, 2008, 02:06:31 AM

UP...I think you are wise beyond your years....You're quite the old timer in this land of debate gate arena....


Thank you.


but the bottom line is what really happens with in the classroom. When you critcize "feeling good" about self and eduation..that isn't to be laughed at. There is a critical element in the teaching science that is only enhanced with such a reality. Children who do not feel good about themselves, sink ...fast.


That is not what I criticize, though I can see why you might think so. I am all for students feeling good and having good self-esteem. And I do understand that is important in the education process. What I criticize is not caring about the self-esteem of students, but the apparent placement of self-esteem ahead of education in priorities. The student should gain some self-esteem in the education process not gain a little education in the self-esteem boosting process. School should be about education, not about preventing students from feeling bad. If Johnny can't read on a 10th grade level when he graduates from the 12th grade, the school failed him regardless of how high his self-esteem might be.


You would never have risen to your level of a debate champ without that boosted self esteem, I guess.


Oh you might be surprised.


IT's a joke ..urban legand to think that "feeling good" is a crock. It's not.


I don't think it's a crock. I do think it should not be the top priority for schools, though it seems increasingly to be so. Many schools do not allow the game of tag any more because it supposedly hurts students' self-esteem. Many schools have non-competitive sports, where no score is kept and therefore no one looses (but then, by my reckoning, no one actually wins either) because loosing is supposedly harmful to the students' self-esteem. I see this as bass ackwards. Trying to prevent students from learning what it means to lose sometimes does not help them as people or help their self-esteem. It establishes a false notion that failing at some task is always and necessarily bad, and it removes from students' self-esteem the support that comes from learning to get over a loss or a failure and move forward. It's a detriment to children and to the learning process in general. So no, feeling good is not a crock, but it not what the end goal of school should be either.


Ok, I am not going to ask you this...Have you been in a classroom setting, lately?


Not in public school, but yes, I have.


But, I ask you...Have you..ok I ask you.


Uh, okay, so, um, huh?


I will fight against all who sit and project their "idea" of education when, in fact, they have no idea of all the factors involved.


I've experienced more than a couple of different forms of education. And I've talked to people who teach in various formats (school teachers, home schoolers and so on), and I have some idea of the factors involved. I'm not saying any part of teaching is easy. It's a difficult job, and I know full well that there is more to it than showing up from 8:00 to 3:00 every day. But when I see that something like 40% (I don't know the current percentage of the top of my head) of 12th graders were unable to pass a 10th grade English test, I think there is something seriously wrong with the education system. And I honestly do not think more of the same is the way to fix it. I don't believe we need the federal government to establish standardized tests and all that stuff. I believe we need innovation in schools from the ground up, not regulations from the top down.

I believe we can improve schools, improve education, and improve the self-esteem of the students, but not without some real effort to open the system up to innovation. What I see, and your perspective may be different, is that school boards and teachers' unions are, in general, opposed to innovation and any any change that doesn't give them more power. And that, more than any other single thing is at the root of the problem.

School boards and teachers' unions, and the like, in general seem to want to take power away from parents and any one who wants to improve the schools. This is why we see from school boards and teachers' unions such strong opposition to school vouchers, to school competition, to charter schools, to homeschooling, et cetera. This is 180 degrees from the way things ought to be, imo. The school boards and the teachers' unions should be the vanguard for ideas of innovation about schools, for making sure that schools are pushed to be the best centers of education they can be, and making sure parents have all the power to decide where their child goes to school.

I'm not saying all or even most teachers are bad. I'm saying the system is broken and resistant to the change it so desperately needs. I'm not saying self-esteem is unimportant. I'm saying teach the children so that they learn, and the self-esteem will follow. I'm not saying let's give up on public schools. I'm saying let's get them to do more than coddle and enforce the status quo. Passing Johnny who hasn't learned to read at his grade level because we don't want hurt Johnny's self-esteem is ultimately going to do both Johnny and his self-esteem more harm than good. I don't say you shouldn't fight as you explained, but I'm also not going to apologize for looking at a system that seems clearly to be in much need of repair and calling it broken. I'm not, however, trying to fight against you. I think we could and should be on the same side.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Universe Prince on March 25, 2008, 02:15:14 AM

It's amazing some of the tangents that can spring forth from one of these threads


Tangents? It's all connected, brother. We're all connected. Everything is all connected. It's, like, all a big ocean of life, brother. Learn to accept it, man, for what it is. Peace, brother. Groovy. Hoopy. Grok it.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 25, 2008, 03:38:15 AM
Ummmm, ok

LOL
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 25, 2008, 04:40:01 AM
Sirs,

You will never know what's what in all of this, because you refuse to see.

You are in the dark...and yet You continue to bark.

Your passion to prove wrong only hurts our children., hands down.

Just today ---
David McCullough on PBS today...one of the brightest authors or our day. He has written so many books.

He told Charlie Rose on his program  that if this country loses sight of teaching the arts and music/drama and dance to its youth in the public schools....there will be a severe injustice.

Gary...currently, we are NOT ALLOWED TO TEACH SUCH THINGS in the public schools. Nor are we "allowed" to teach science and social studies. I posted that point..and the fact that it is not just in New MExico.
You refuse to hear me.

That's just the tip of the ice berg, dear man.

The NCLB ACT has managed to do away with quality. Bottom line.

You are not in the classroom. You bash the PS system, and you rest on some sort of past evidence that has nothing to do with the crap that goes on in our system.... and yet every one of our young minds be they in the ghetto or inner city enviromments and behond, all deserve better.

They are getting less and less of a quality education each month...as long as the act continues as is. The mandates force teachers to teach only what the powers that be...feel important. RRR's

I am announcing right now...that it must be altered for the better. That's all.

I want QUALTIY education to return to our children.

Currently, the way it is set up..that is not happening.

You can argue all the damn night and day, but you will never understand what is really happening in the classrooms of many cities in this nation. You refuse. That's your right.

YOu are arrogant and lately, you are rude. You are petty and you are not going to understand. I frankly, don't give a damn anymore. 


I am here to tell you that there are situations that prevent..PREVENT children from learning because of that act.Not support children....keep children from moving forward.


and...and it has NOTHING to do with teacher's jobs, as much as you and BT want that to be your platform. You go ahead and make your stupid argument. You will be wrong. That's a shame. You stand tall on some sort of rhetoric and you REFUSE to hear me out.

The issue is the pressure to make our children land on ONE SIZE FITS ALL platforms. NOt possible. The issue is that teachers are made to conform to a one size fits all standard of teaching only what the government wants.....and nothing else. I have worked too long to see this system fail. 

So, I will not stop that fight> I WANT THE NCLB TWEAKED. PERIOD. I don't want to stop the competition. I dont' want to see a healhty system shoveled aside. I want it all. Currently, it isn't happening, according to THE ACT at hand.

If it changes, and I see that our kids are given back what they once OWNED and deserved as they "right to all" in terms of a full education in the PUBLIC SCHOOLS..the system that is a part of our infrastructure.....I'll be the first to compete. I'll be the first to say, bring it on.

It is weak...that's all I have been saying and I rest my final case on that.

Help the system work. DOn't bash the hell out of the players within.

The children are as varied and individual as your patients who come for care..seeking help in their time of need.

Ok, I'm spent.
But I will fight for what is right.

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 25, 2008, 10:41:51 AM
No Child Left Behind Act (NCLB)
Executive Summary

 

PREMISE: All students will reach proficiency or better levels of achievement by school year 2013-2014.

Standards and Assessment
Accountability and Adequate Yearly Progress (AYP)
Corrective Action
Staff Qualifications
Parental Involvement
Standards and Assessment

    * States must adopt challenging academic standards that apply to all children
    * Standards must specify what children are expected to know and be able to do
    * Standards must describe advanced, proficient, and basic levels of achievement
    * Standards for math, reading, and language arts must be in place by July 1, 2002
    * Standards for science must be in place by school year 2005-2006
    * Yearly academic assessments in math, reading and language arts must be administered at least once between grades 3 and 6, grades 7 and 9, and grades 10 and 12
    * Beginning 2005-2006 annual assessments must be given every year between grades 3 and 8
    * Beginning 2007-2008, assessments must be given in science
    * Students with limited English proficiency (LEP) must take their reading/language arts assessment in English if they have attended schools in the United States for three consecutive years
    * All students with LEP must take an annual English proficiency assessment beginning in 2002-2003

Accountability and Adequate Yearly Progress (AYP)

    * States must develop a single statewide accountability system that applies to all public schools and all students regardless of participation in the Title 1 program
    * AYP is the minimum level of improvement that school districts must achieve every year
    * The state will develop a definition of AYP (In PA 45% will achieve proficiency(p) in reading/language arts(r/l), 35% will achieve proficiency(p) in math for the year 2002-2003; 54% p in r/l, 46% p in math 2004-2006; 68% p in r/l, 62% p in math 2007-2009 )
    * AYP is reported for each school as a whole and broken out into the following subgroups:
          o economically disadvantaged students
          o students from major racial or ethnic groups
          o students with limited English proficiency
          o students with special needs
    * Each state will determine the number necessary to qualify as a subgroup(in PA N=40)
    * At a minimum, schools must meet two requirements to make AYP. Schools must ensure that 95% of students take the assessments and the school as a whole and each subgroup must meet the measurable objectives established by the state(in PA 45% p in r/l; 35% p in math) and meet one other factor established by the state (in PA attendance rate in elementary and middle; graduation rate in high school)
    * Schools and school districts can still make AYP if they achieve safe harbor, reducing by 10% the number of non-proficient students and meeting the threshold for the other indicators ( in PA attendance or graduation rate)

Corrective Action

    * Schools that fail to make AYP for 2 consecutive years are identified for corrective action
    * The family is offered the option to transfer to another public school of its choice within the district
    * The district must pay for transportation
    * The lowest achieving students from low-income families must be given first preference
    * Lack of capacity does not excuse an LEA from operating a choice program
    * Supplemental educational services from an approved list of providers are arranged if the school fails to make AYP for 3 years
    * Providers are exempt from certain requirements applicable to schools such as ?highly required? requirements
    * If a school fails to make AYP for 5 years, the Lea must restructure the school and if the school fails to make AYP for a sixth year, alternative governance must be implemented

Staff Qualifications

    * Teachers of core academic subjects must earn state certification or achieve the qualifying score on the appropriate content test
    * All public school teachers teaching core subjects must meet these requirements no later than the end of the 2005-2006 school year
    * A paraprofessional must have completed 2 years of higher education, earned an associate?s degree or passed a formal state or local assessment
    * NCLB increases its emphasis on professional development

Parental Involvement

    * Families must be given more information about the achievement of their children
    * Families must be given more information about the performance of the schools
    * Families must be notified when the children are taught for more than 4 weeks by teachers who are not highly qualifies
    * The families have the right to demand information about the credentials of the teachers
    * Families of LEP children must be promptly notified when their children are recommended for inclusion in language instruction programs
    * Families have the right to opt out of language inclusion programs at any time

http://www.asha.org/about/legislation-advocacy/federal/nclb/exec-summary.htm
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 25, 2008, 10:51:59 AM
Quote
Gary...currently, we are NOT ALLOWED TO TEACH SUCH THINGS in the public schools. Nor are we "allowed" to teach science and social studies. I posted that point..and the fact that it is not just in New MExico.
You refuse to hear me.

That's just the tip of the ice berg, dear man.

The NCLB ACT has managed to do away with quality. Bottom line.

Please point to the part of the  NCLB that sets curriculum. Seems that is a state function. Perhaps your ire should be better placed there.

Previously you blamed NCLB for assessment tests taking place in February. Further investigation showed that to be a state function.



Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on March 25, 2008, 10:54:24 AM
Teachers here do not make $40,000, and the average house costs well over $300K.
$40,000 might be a princely sum in whatever podunk place you live in, but life in any city costs a lot more than that.
I have colleagues i my university that have PhD's that cannot afford even a condo.

Perhaps they piss away too much on the physical plant, perhaps they have too many administrators, perhaps they pay administrators too much, but there is no way that teachers can live a middle class existence on what they are paid, and they leave after a few years.

Your opinion is that they should be banned from paying union dues (as if $300 a year is enough to buy a house with) and the teachers unions should be powerless to assist the teachers in making a decent salary. You have no such right, and should be given no such right.

If poor education could just pile up, rot in the street, and smell to high heaven like garbage, teachers could just strike and wait for the situation to become intolerable. It's pretty much what the school boards deserve for running schools so poorly.

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 25, 2008, 11:01:36 AM
Nor are we "allowed" to teach science and social studies. I posted that point..and the fact that it is not just in New MExico.

Actually, NCLB mandates the teaching of science; it's one of the required testing areas.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 25, 2008, 11:10:58 AM
Teachers here do not make $40,000, and the average house costs well over $300K.

Average teacher's salary in Florida is $45,296.

Miami-Dade averages, broken down by degree level:

Bachelor's: $44,004
Master's: $52,908
Specialist: $61,646
Doctor's: $62,191
Total Average: $49,191
Source (http://www.teachinflorida.com/Portals/0/Documents/tchsal06.pdf)

Median house price in Miami is $295,000. However, the 25th percentile is under $200,000 (1/4 of the houses available are below $200k). A house costing $200k is well within the range of someone earning over $40k/yr.
Source (http://www.housingtracker.net/askingprices/Florida/Miami-FortLauderdale-MiamiBeach/)
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: fatman on March 25, 2008, 11:30:40 AM
Median house price in Miami is $295,000. However, the 25th percentile is under $200,000 (1/4 of the houses available are below $200k). A house costing $200k is well within the range of someone earning over $40k/yr.

Wow, that's a hell of a lot better than Seattle.  It's not too bad out where I live (about 80 miles from Seattle) but I know that in Seattle it's awful.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 25, 2008, 11:47:19 AM
Sirs,  You will never know what's what in all of this, because you refuse to see.  You are in the dark...and yet You continue to bark.  Your passion to prove wrong only hurts our children., hands down.

Now, let's replace the subject of education, with the subject of the Iraq war, and instead of children, will replace that with our U.S. Soldiers and Iraqi civilians

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 25, 2008, 01:44:58 PM
You still don't have any idea what you are talking about, Sirs, but you go right ahead and jump around play the chess game with checker rules. Children need and deserve better.

The war was not supposed to be a WAR as we see it. Bush promised in and out quick feet....sweet tweet...
instead..we have an occupation and blood all over the place for what?

.....an "oops" on the part of Bush?
Let's call him Judas, betraying the spirit of all children---   who deserved the Trillions of dollars spent.
They are our future, and yet, they will suffer because of such lust for blood and power. I would rather provide a child with a book than with a gun. We are so quick to do the reverse in this country. Support war at all cost?!
Oh, and the world is ahead of us there, as well. hmmmm Should we try to compete with the Islamic factions that teach their children to kill? Now, there's a way to provide vouchers! Let's put the pressure on the military to sign up every young person for war in the near future.

Bush betrayed this country.

We are never going to get back the precious dollars we could have spent here at home.

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 25, 2008, 01:59:06 PM
The war was not supposed to be a WAR as we see it. Bush promised in and out quick feet....sweet tweet...
instead..we have an occupation and blood all over the place for what?....Bush betrayed this country.  

Bought into the DNC talking points I see.  Hmmmmmmm   :-\   And just validating the accusation, you've been trying to level at me, regarding education.

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: kimba1 on March 25, 2008, 02:01:55 PM
but is a 200k house near a crack house ?


there is a cost to low price homes
is it really a good idea for a teacher to live in such a house ?

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 25, 2008, 02:11:14 PM
The war was not supposed to be a WAR as we see it. Bush promised in and out quick feet....sweet tweet...
instead..we have an occupation and blood all over the place for what?....Bush betrayed this country.  

Bought into the DNC talking points I see.  Hmmmmmmm   :-\   And just validating the accusation, you've been trying to level at me, regarding education.




Consider yourself.... 'LEVELED"... ;)
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 25, 2008, 02:18:31 PM
but is a 200k house near a crack house ?

I seriously doubt 25% of Miami houses are near crack houses.

If they are, Miami has a much more serious drug problem than they let on.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 25, 2008, 02:19:38 PM
The war was not supposed to be a WAR as we see it. Bush promised in and out quick feet....sweet tweet...
instead..we have an occupation and blood all over the place for what?

Actually, Bush said that it was going to be a long war. Just because many did not listen, does not mean he didn't say it.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: kimba1 on March 25, 2008, 02:22:56 PM
maybe not all are near
but when houses cost that low
there are factors that sometimes go into effect
crime, poorly made house,small house ,powerlines or simply it`s a low cost house
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on March 25, 2008, 02:35:51 PM
The cheapest houses here are not houses at all, but condos, and the condo price does not include the maintenance fees, which are geerally upwards of $200 per month. Public transportation is inadequate for most people to travel to work.

Recently, the School Board gave a raise, and then hit the teachers with a huge increase in what they had to pay for their healthcare and copays.

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Universe Prince on March 25, 2008, 02:37:16 PM

Teachers here do not make $40,000, and the average house costs well over $300K.


Amianthus' post indicates otherwise.


$40,000 might be a princely sum in whatever podunk place you live in, but life in any city costs a lot more than that.


A lot more than $40,000? Well, I guess it could, and I'm sure in places like New York City it does. But teachers there are also paid more on average, I'm pretty sure.


Your opinion is that they should be banned from paying union dues (as if $300 a year is enough to buy a house with) and the teachers unions should be powerless to assist the teachers in making a decent salary.


The hell it is. You're just making up nonsense. I have not once said teachers should be banned from paying anything or that teachers unions should be powerless.


You have no such right, and should be given no such right.


Here's a clue: I don't want that "right". What I wish I could do is stop teachers' unions from being part of the problem. I wish I could somehow give a speech that turned them all around into supporters for school vouchers and school competition and focusing on finding the right education for each child. But I can't.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 25, 2008, 02:54:46 PM
"Recently, the School Board gave a raise, and then hit the teachers with a huge increase in what they had to pay for their healthcare and copays."



Those increases have hit our system as well, Xavier. The "raise" ends up being a clutch for scraps.

And, teaching assistants (EA's) get hit even harder each year.

They work so hard right along side the teachers. As it is, educational assistants are used as substitutes when the "Sub Well" dries up. 
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 25, 2008, 02:56:49 PM
Those increases have hit our system as well, Xavier. The "raise" ends up being a clutch for scraps.

Can you name any business where employee health care costs have not risen?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 25, 2008, 03:06:11 PM
The war was not supposed to be a WAR as we see it. Bush promised in and out quick feet....sweet tweet...
instead..we have an occupation and blood all over the place for what?

Actually, Bush said that it was going to be a long war. Just because many did not listen, does not mean he didn't say it.

I guess we can consider Miss Cynthia.... "leveled"      ???
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: kimba1 on March 25, 2008, 03:18:32 PM
health insurance is a tricky thing
people think businesses pay for the insurance and the co-pay is the only thing that needs payment.
but legally companies don`t have to pay insurance so alot of people pay for it thought their company plan .
ex. pitney bowes employees pay over 110% of thier insurance till they work enough years for the company to be worth it for the company to cover it
I know because I used to work for them
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 25, 2008, 03:26:07 PM
ex. pitney bowes employees pay over 110% of thier insurance till they work enough years for the company to be worth it for the company to cover it
I know because I used to work for them

Explain why anyone would pay more to the company for insurance than if they could get it themselves cheaper?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on March 25, 2008, 04:02:03 PM
Can you name any business where employee health care costs have not risen?

=====================================
Naturally, the fact that everyone is getting screwed royally means that it is somehow fair.

Fair like an earthquake or hurricane is fair.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 25, 2008, 04:03:57 PM
Naturally, the fact that everyone is getting screwed royally means that it is somehow fair.

Fair like an earthquake or hurricane is fair.

So, do you think that health care workers do not deserve periodic raises? Should they be required to work for you for free?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: kimba1 on March 25, 2008, 04:32:30 PM
well at the time my company was taken over by pitney bowes so my benefits change accordingly .
but the answer would be most folks don`t have that much of a choice if they want to work for that company or to get insurance with a pre-existing condition.
I quit when it happenned
I just got a raise and was actually losing money
my boss told me she got hired for higher pay but got less take home pay so after a year she quit also.
pitney bowes is a revolving door
I`ve yet hear good things about it .
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 25, 2008, 04:50:03 PM
but the answer would be most folks don`t have that much of a choice if they want to work for that company or to get insurance with a pre-existing condition.

You are not required to get your health insurance through your employer.

And California (as well as most states) has laws requiring health insurance companies to cover pre-existing conditions.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 25, 2008, 04:51:31 PM
And California (as well as most states) has laws requiring health insurance companies to cover pre-existing conditions.

Sorry, that's a lie.

It's a Federal law so it applies in all states.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: kimba1 on March 25, 2008, 05:04:06 PM
I`m not saying required
but it really makes things easier to have then through your job
and insurance didn`t really deny people with pre-existing conditions
they just charge them alot more.
when your making just 22k/year
those factors are really noticeable
note I said I quit that job and my boss also
some companies have high turn-overs and never really understand why this is happenning and never change to fix it for decades
ex. pillbury,madison&sutro
for decades they had a extremely high turnover
only 5 years ago they figured this is costing them money in the fact they are having trouble getting new hires.
attorneys flinch when I said I used to work for them.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 25, 2008, 05:12:21 PM
I`m not saying required
but it really makes things easier to have then through your job

Not if they're charging you more than the insurance costs them. And I'm pretty sure that's illegal anyway.

and insurance didn`t really deny people with pre-existing conditions
they just charge them alot more.

That's illegal as well for group coverage.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on March 25, 2008, 05:23:31 PM
So, do you think that health care workers do not deserve periodic raises? Should they be required to work for you for free?
=========================================================
That is not the point.

The percentage of health insurance of most people's salaries have risen MUCH FASTER than the salaries.

The copayments have also gone up and up.

This extra money is not going to the workers...they are not making enough th keep up with their health care insurance, either.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 25, 2008, 05:46:34 PM
That is not the point.

The percentage of health insurance of most people's salaries have risen MUCH FASTER than the salaries.

The copayments have also gone up and up.

This extra money is not going to the workers...they are not making enough th keep up with their health care insurance, either.

I'd like to see the statistics that support this. Because I've worked for four companies in the last 2 years, and none have followed that.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: kimba1 on March 25, 2008, 06:48:47 PM
not sure it`s illegal for bussiness to charge more  since they use staff to process it so admin cost go into play.
but if it is pitney bowes maybe in trouble or already is
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 25, 2008, 07:21:18 PM
not sure it`s illegal for bussiness to charge more  since they use staff to process it so admin cost go into play.

Processing is done by the insurance provider.

Not even consulting groups charge more than the insurance premiums - and they're the ones who would do so if they could get away with it. That leads me to think it's illegal.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: kimba1 on March 25, 2008, 07:26:38 PM
oops
gonna have to call some old friends to see if anybody is still working there.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Universe Prince on March 26, 2008, 02:41:24 AM

Ok maybe you're not a fool...but UP??


Wow. I went from wise beyond my years to maybe not a fool. But you're right, maybe I'm not. I'm not sure either.


If you were to rule the school system, competition would be the least of your problems.


Perhaps. I would certainly hope so.


You want THE RIGHT EDUCATION for all?

Stop blaming the people who sweat and work hard to provide such.


I'm not blaming them. And if you'll remember back to the beginning this thread, of the two of us, I was the one defending the parents who sweat and work hard to provide such. You know, homeschoolers. And if you'll go back the article that was the start of this thread (http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-homeschool6mar06,1,4399394.story (http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-homeschool6mar06,1,4399394.story)), the teachers' union agreed with the ruling against homeschooling. I'm not blaming the people who sweat and work hard to provide the right education to children. I'm blaming the people who stand in the way of those who want to sweat and work hard to provide the right education to children.


Vouchers will provide a place to run and find a new chance?

You think?


I do think. Thanks for asking. And I think vouchers will allow parents more control over where and how their children are educated. I happen to also think that would be a good thing. If you think that is wrong, please explain why.


Pay the teachers more. Raise the standards for the parents and see how much of a 'chance' your future children will have then.


I'd be happy to do so, provided we can have tests to see whether the students are actually learning and then fire teachers who are not doing their job. That will raise standards. Do you object?


What are your qualifications to lecture about the system that fails a child?


Well, for one, I'm a product (at least in part) of the system. For another, being maybe not a fool, when I see the reports that a large percentage of 12th grade students fail a test of 10th grade English, it indicates to me the system has major problems. Kinda like if the eggs at the market stink of sulfur, I don't have to be an oologist to know there is something wrong with the eggs.


Sit in on a classroom where the child is hungry. Sit in on a classroom where a child has been beaten blue and no can prove it. Sit in on a classroom where a child struggles to smile and find peace of mind.


I'm curious as to how you expect to solve those problems by paying the teachers more. Do better paid teachers care more?


Damn you people who think VOUCHERS are the answer.

I call you fools.


No need to hold back. Say what you really think.

Seriously though, you can call us fools all the damn day long, but that does nothing to prove us wrong. What was that you said about sit in a classroom "where a child struggles to smile and find peace of mind"? Tell me, Cynthia, the parents who want vouchers so they can send their child to a different school, what do you think they want? Do you think their goal is to screw the public school system, or to try something to get a better education in a better environment for their child? Is that foolish? I think it is not. You tell me I should not be "blaming the people who sweat and work hard to provide" the right education for children. Providing that is exactly what parents who want vouchers are trying to do. That is not foolishness. But in many cases it is desperation because many of those parents have no other way to get their child out of a bad school. You say to me, "You have no idea of what the down and dirty struggles run amuck in this world of 'learning'". Well, those parents who want vouchers, they know it all too well. And they are looking for a way out. Those parents are hunting, praying, begging for a solution that will help their child, and people like you want to berate them for fools? You'll get no sympathy from me there.


I get pissed when I read such words.....IF YOU could RUN things??...BUt YOU CAN'T??


Not what I said. I never claimed to want to run things. Go back and read what I said.


God, thank God you can't. UP.
 

I probably would make a very poor administrator. But in any case, you haven't made a decent anti-voucher argument, Cynthia. You haven't really made any anti-voucher argument. And if the best you have to offer is "pay teachers more", then you haven't got a solution. I suggest you stop blaming and damning the people who do.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Universe Prince on March 26, 2008, 02:45:12 AM
Um, excuse me, but where did Cynthia's post go? She had reply #303. That post is gone and my reply to her is now reply #303. What happened?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 26, 2008, 03:37:59 AM
she has the ability to delete her own posts. i suspect that is what she did.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Universe Prince on March 26, 2008, 03:59:35 AM
Huh. Okay.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 26, 2008, 12:27:49 PM
Huh. Okay.

I did delete them, after thinking I probably have spoken too much on the issue here.

I felt it was time to bury that dead horse.

BUt, thank you for replying to the post, UP.
I am passionate about this issue.

I do not feel there is anything wrong with vouchers.

If a voucher helps a child get a better education, I suppose tbat's fine.
As for paying a teacher more. I think that is important, but my direct stand on this whole issue has not been on pay for teachers. My gripe is more about the punitive actions based on the need to pressure all in teh system to meet a one size fits all mentality for the gov.

I believe we need to focus more on how we assess schools and teachers. I feel strongly that we need to bring back a quality of education that has been taken out because of the extreme focus on test scores and the ramifications there in.

I know for sure that the educators in my "village" have always aimed for the highest and best expectations.

 But, becasue of the unjust "expectations" of the NCLB act, I see the difference in the quality of education we are forced to give our kids than ever before. THere is the irony of the 'act'.  We are forced to teach only the subject areas that will bring test scores up. Many schools across the country are pressured instead of provided with support.... and for what? So the schools are not put on probabtionary action, restrictive action, etc?  That's a shame. No wonder vouchers are going to fly off the top shelf. No wonder homeschooling is coming into its own. No wonder people feel that education and PS's are lacking. The issue I have with the ACT is basically the devil in the details.

  Currently, the pressure to make a grade that in based on such unjust measures, is doing more harm than good for the kids. I posted those unjust details of the NCLB act a while back. I will find more again on this today, as I am on spring break and have time to devote to this.
I had written another post last evening to Sirs which was a sort of apology (long winded in tone, however ha!)....so I deleted it. But, I do admire Sirs and you for your stance on this issue.

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Universe Prince on March 26, 2008, 12:56:37 PM

I am passionate about this issue.


Nothing wrong with that.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 26, 2008, 01:13:27 PM

I am passionate about this issue.


Nothing wrong with that.

Hey, UP...I just posted more read up. THanks, dear.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 26, 2008, 01:32:56 PM
I had posted this article in a previous post around Easter weekend. The reason I posted it is because it supports my point in this argument. The issue I have is not totally with teacher accountability or teacher pay or whether or not families have the right to home school or take advantage of vouchers. I was the first to admit that homeschooling is actually not such a bad idea. Our schools are forced in the public sector to teach to tests. I know that sounds crazy, but we are on that hot seat and it is more like an electric chair.

The issue I have is based on some of the "provisions" within the act itself. Public school teachers are  limited in what they can teach.  Reading, and Math. That's a crime! We used to teach it all! That's my beef!  I believe that "crime" to be the fault of an unreasonable and unjust pressure to score high OR HIT THE ROAD mentality.





'No Child' Act Needs Improvement

By Michael DeWitte
Chairman, N.M. Business Roundtable for Educational Excellence
    The New Mexico Business Roundtable for Education Excellence supports the lofty and laudable goals of the No Child Left Behind Act.
    However, under the auspices of "continuous improvement," we believe that there are a few changes that must be made as Congress addresses the reauthorization of the bill's provisions.
    We applaud the bill's provisions requiring that student achievement data be disaggregated and reported by student subgroups as well as for all students at a grade level as these requirements have made school and school district performance more transparent than ever before. This benefits teachers, administrators, parents and communities.
    Yet some provisions of NCLB may do a disservice to schools and to the students and families they serve.
    We asked officials at Rio Rancho Public Schools to present us with their thoughts and recommendations as to NCLB and found their approach and candor refreshing and logical. We have adopted those shown below and have shared them with the U.S. Department of Education. We now share them with our communities.
   
Students whose cognitive abilities do not match their chronological age are stressed and frustrated by having to take tests that, through no fault of their own or of their teachers, they cannot pass. The way in which assessments are administered to students with disabilities and the grade level at which students are assessed should be driven by the student's Individualized Education Plan, as required under the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act. The percentage of students with disabilities allowed to take alternate assessments should be increased and driven by the number of students in a district that qualify as opposed to an artificial "cap."   
English-language learner programs are severely underfunded and under-supported. NCLB has no provisions for students to be tested in mathematics with assessments in their home language, which means these students are tested with an English-language math assessment. This greatly handicaps non-English speakers who may understand the mathematical concepts but have limited fluency in English.
   
NCLB requires all schools to demonstrate 95 percent participation of all students and all subgroups on all sections of the required assessments. No "rounding" or tolerance is allowed in calculating participation. In terms of whether a school or district makes AYP? adequate yearly progress? participation is weighted equally with academic factors. It is important that some flexibility be allowed in determining if schools and districts have met the intent of the law before imposing sanctions based solely on the participation rate.
   
A single student's score can be counted in up to five of the nine subgroups recognized by NCLB in New Mexico. This can create a skewed picture of how well or poorly a school performs and weights the scores of some students more than others when determining school ratings. Each student should be counted in only one subgroup of which the student is a member for the purpose of determining whether a school makes AYP.
   
NCLB should require the delivery of test data to schools and school districts in time for it to be used to change instructional practices before the next school year? preferably before the end of the school year in which the test is administered.
   
Each state develops its own tests and its own criteria, within the federal law, for determining what makes or does not make AYP. Therefore the results might earn a school sanctions in one state while it would make AYP in another. There is an inherent inconsistency in the implementation of NCLB procedures by the U.S. Department of Education. Also, the current system makes it very difficult for the public to appropriately compare schools and districts. If an "exception to policy" is granted to one state on a matter applicable to most (if not all) states, then the same "exception to policy" should be granted to all states without individual states having to submit their requests and in-depth documentation to justify their requests.
   
The label "AYP Not Met" tells the public little about whether schools are truly failing. Schools that fall short in just a couple of areas receive the same label as those with issues across several subgroups and academic disciplines. A more comprehensive means of rating schools would help the public better understand how those schools are performing and not demoralize hard-working teachers, administrators, parents and students who overall did well, but missed AYP in just a couple of categories. Schools and districts could be assigned a grade or other designation based on objective criteria, such as a percentage of data points on which the school made AYP.
    These suggestions would only improve the implementation of NCLB with a sense of reality and fairness to all
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Universe Prince on March 26, 2008, 01:36:50 PM

My gripe is more about the punitive actions based on the need to pressure all in teh system to meet a one size fits all mentality for the gov.


A one size fits all mentality being exactly what I'm arguing against, which is why I support vouchers, school competition and homeschooling.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 26, 2008, 01:39:48 PM

My gripe is more about the punitive actions based on the need to pressure all in teh system to meet a one size fits all mentality for the gov.


A one size fits all mentality being exactly what I'm arguing against, which is why I support vouchers, school competition and homeschooling.

Well, then I agree, UP.

My passionate stance here is WHY CAN'T WE FIX THE PS system so families that can not homeschool, or move their children around the city (vouchers) can still get the best??
I say we need to support what is already part of a great infrastructure. Teh Public Schools. The way the government is going about it, isn't good enough. That's my beef.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Universe Prince on March 26, 2008, 01:48:32 PM

My passionate stance here is WHY CAN'T WE FIX THE PS system so families that can not homeschool, or move their children around the city (vouchers) can still get the best??


We can. And there are people trying. But there is a lot of opposition to change by the established order, which is to say school boards and teachers' unions.


I say we need to support what is already part of a great infrastructure. Teh Public Schools. The way the government is going about it, isn't good enough. That's my beef.


The way the federal government goes about it will never be good enough, imo. It shouldn't even be meddling in the issue. Education at the local level needs local solutions.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 26, 2008, 01:53:01 PM
"The label "AYP Not Met" tells the public little about whether schools are truly failing. Schools that fall short in just a couple of areas receive the same label as those with issues across several subgroups and academic disciplines. A more comprehensive means of rating schools would help the public better understand how those schools are performing and not demoralize hard-working teachers, administrators, parents and students who overall did well, but missed AYP in just a couple of categories. Schools and districts could be assigned a grade or other designation based on objective criteria, such as a percentage of data points on which the school made AYP.
    These suggestions would only improve the implementation of NCLB with a sense of reality and fairness to all."


This quote from the news article speaks for me, UP. The article doesn't bring in how to fix the problem, necessarily. I would LOVE TO read such an article!

We need to hear more from candidates on this problem, imo. This issue is not going to go away. The playing field for the homeschooling venue vs the public schools is simply not fair.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 26, 2008, 01:57:44 PM

My passionate stance here is WHY CAN'T WE FIX THE PS system so families that can not homeschool, or move their children around the city (vouchers) can still get the best??


We can. And there are people trying. But there is a lot of opposition to change by the established order, which is to say school boards and teachers' unions.


I say we need to support what is already part of a great infrastructure. Teh Public Schools. The way the government is going about it, isn't good enough. That's my beef.


The way the federal government goes about it will never be good enough, imo. It shouldn't even be meddling in the issue. Education at the local level needs local solutions.

The local gov. is what I am also referring to, though UP>

We need help with this problem.
I guess I don't see the issue of the union being against anyone in all of this. If you are referring to the union making sure bad teachers stay on the job...that's not enough, UP. . .with all due respect. It's not just about that.

The problem lies more in THE NCLB ACT, as I stated in the post above. (in bold font).

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 26, 2008, 02:28:54 PM
The issue I have is based on some of the "provisions" within the act itself. Public school teachers are  limited in what they can teach.  Reading, and Math. That's a crime! We used to teach it all! That's my beef!  I believe that "crime" to be the fault of an unreasonable and unjust pressure to score high OR HIT THE ROAD mentality.

That is not true.

As a matter of fact, science is one of the mandatory tests under NCLB.

And the curriculum is decided by the states, not by the federal government - it's not mandated in the NCLB act AT ALL.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 26, 2008, 05:12:12 PM
The issue I have is based on some of the "provisions" within the act itself. Public school teachers are  limited in what they can teach.  Reading, and Math. That's a crime! We used to teach it all! That's my beef!  I believe that "crime" to be the fault of an unreasonable and unjust pressure to score high OR HIT THE ROAD mentality.

That is not true.

As a matter of fact, science is one of the mandatory tests under NCLB.

And the curriculum is decided by the states, not by the federal government - it's not mandated in the NCLB act AT ALL.

Ami,
I am not saying that the NCLB act is responsible for dictating what we teach. Sure, in our district
the SBA does test Science, although the scores in that area of the test do not count  in terms of meeting AYP or not meeting AYP.
But, when a principal and/or a district adopts a new reading program that has been "proven" to work, as is the case in our school district and many across the nation,(especially in Reading First schools) it comes with a price. We are mandated to teach 120 minutes in reading and 120 minutes in math, with a bit of writing on the side. There is no time for a richness in the other subject areas, as there once was in our schools.

 Well and fine. I am all for new programs that work,et etc etc...I like the one we have chosen. It's really a great way to teach phonics, phonemic awareness, etc. Not to mention the new math programs (constructivisim at its best).
But, there is a unreasonable pressure to make sure that every child reads at the same level by a given date OR ELSE... And, along with that pressure, our hands are tied when it comes to teaching quality subjects like science, social studies, music, art and believe it or not, bi-lingual ed. (yes, bi-lingual ed in OUR STATE??). Believe it.

I blame the NCLB act for that. The act is not a bad idea. I have said that before, but what has come out of the whole thing, as I posted earlier today with regard to unreasonable expectations and punitive actions, is simply not right nor is it supportive. It's not good enough, Ami.
The NCLB act is a great idea, sure. Leaving no child behind is the only way to go! The funding seems to be an issue, as well.


Sure, get rid of bad teachers. I am all for that too. I am not arguing that. I am concerned that the states are under an unreasonable stressful pressure, which eventually trickles down to the child...and why? So we don't leave children behind. The system needs work, that's all I am saying, adn have been. My biggest gripe is what it is doing to the schools. You don't see what I see. In theory, all is of course going to sound so right on. I have a feeling our little school in our little village is not any different from a great number of schools in a great number of villages around this  country. It's a shame and in so many ways, NCLB's is to blame.   

I am in contact with a couple of districts in California that are experiencing the similar problems. Sure, the mandates come from local gov.  The bottom line is that the NCLB act has within its own bottom line unreasonable expectations and unjust punitive actions.

In my school for example, we were told NOT TO TEACH SCIENCE this year for the first time. WHAT? Why? Because if we don't get those scores way up....we are punished. My god. Does the government really believe that it comes down to bad teaching? There is so much more. There is financial support, reduction of classroom sizes, the list goes on and on....

We have critical issues within our school community. Those issues probably do not exist in your average middle income or above groups or subgroups. Even if they do, the reactions on the part of any government should not interfere with the process of a good education.

Mandates beget mandates and someone loses in the end..if those mandates are not reasonable. How is the act directily going to help the average public school kid?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 26, 2008, 05:27:58 PM
I am not saying that the NCLB act is responsible for dictating what we teach. Sure, in our district
the SBA does test Science, although the scores in that area of the test do not count  in terms of meeting AYP or not meeting AYP.

Starting with this school year (07-08), the NCLB mandates science testing. And the definition of a school's "meeting AYP" is, again, defined by the state, not the NCLB.

We are mandated to teach 120 minutes in reading and 120 minutes in math, with a bit of writing on the side. There is no time for a richness in the other subject areas, as there once was in our schools.
But, there is a unreasonable pressure to make sure that every child reads at the same level by a given date OR ELSE...

So, what has the state decided your "or else" is? Again, this is a state-defined action, not part of NCLB.

I blame the NCLB act for that. The act is not a bad idea. I have said that before, but what has come out of the whole thing, as I posted earlier today with regard to unreasonable expectations and punitive actions, is simply not right nor is it supportive. It's not good enough, Ami.

What "punitive actions" does the NCLB act require? All I can see is that if the school does not meet it's AYP two years in a row, it's required to allow parents other options - vouchers, homeschooling, allowing students to transfer to other schools, etc. Why do you consider competition (especially competition to enrich the student's education) to be "punitive"?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 26, 2008, 05:29:22 PM
But, there is a unreasonable pressure to make sure that every child reads at the same level by a given date OR ELSE...

Oh yeah, BTW, this is an incorrect statement anyway. NCLB mandates a three tier level of achievement for students, not a single standard.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 26, 2008, 05:40:01 PM
I am not saying that the NCLB act is responsible for dictating what we teach. Sure, in our district
the SBA does test Science, although the scores in that area of the test do not count  in terms of meeting AYP or not meeting AYP.

Starting with this school year (07-08), the NCLB mandates science testing. And the definition of a school's "meeting AYP" is, again, defined by the state, not the NCLB.

We are mandated to teach 120 minutes in reading and 120 minutes in math, with a bit of writing on the side. There is no time for a richness in the other subject areas, as there once was in our schools.
But, there is a unreasonable pressure to make sure that every child reads at the same level by a given date OR ELSE...

So, what has the state decided your "or else" is? Again, this is a state-defined action, not part of NCLB.

I blame the NCLB act for that. The act is not a bad idea. I have said that before, but what has come out of the whole thing, as I posted earlier today with regard to unreasonable expectations and punitive actions, is simply not right nor is it supportive. It's not good enough, Ami.

What "punitive actions" does the NCLB act require? All I can see is that if the school does not meet it's AYP two years in a row, it's required to allow parents other options - vouchers, homeschooling, allowing students to transfer to other schools, etc. Why do you consider competition (especially competition to enrich the student's education) to be "punitive"?


There is nothing wrong with punitive actions if they are reasonable.

There is nothing wrong with offering vouchers and home schooling.

But, do the expectations from the NCLB act fit the punishment?

I think not.

I also say that not all children can skip across town because the school they are attending has not met AYP. Hell, MOST schools are not meeting AYP. There is a reason for this. The expectations ARE NOT YOUR USUAL EXPECTATIONS that can be reached, Ami! Your argument also seems to imply that it comes down to

a) why not just punish bad schools? 
b) why not offer a better education somewhere else?

Too easy. Yet a perfect argument. But not in this case, Ami.
 

I have posted the facts you ask for here before, and I am going to find the stats on this, Ami.

I'll be back. 
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 26, 2008, 07:19:28 PM
But, do the expectations from the NCLB act fit the punishment?

I think not.

What punishment are you talking about, and what expectations from NCLB are being punished?

Hell, MOST schools are not meeting AYP. There is a reason for this. The expectations ARE NOT YOUR USUAL EXPECTATIONS that can be reached, Ami!

Then New Mexico must have a lot of problems; most of the schools in Minnesota met their AYP.

And again, the "expectations" are set by the state, not the NCLB act. Perhaps your state should set more reasonable expectations?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 26, 2008, 07:37:01 PM
On Jan. 8, 2002, President Bush signed into law the No Child Left Behind Act of 2001. This new law embodies his education reform plan and is the most sweeping reform of the Elementary and Secondary Education Act (ESEA) since it was enacted in 1965. The new law redefines the federal government's role in kindergarten-through-grade-12 education. Designed to help close the achievement gap between disadvantaged and minority students and their peers, the new law will change the culture of America's schools so that they define their success in terms of student achievement and invest in the achievement of every child. The act is based on four basic principles: stronger accountability for results, increased flexibility and local control, expanded options for parents, and an emphasis on teaching methods that have been proven to work.

This sounds so fantastic, on paper. It may have been designed to help, but I have yet to see a helpful or supportive element arise. . It was designed to close the achievement gap between disadvantaged and minority students and their peers. Oh ok. Fantastic! The new law will CHANGE the culture of America?s schools. Designing something to close any gap is just that---a design. That doesn?t make it a complete and viable finished project.   

The first principle of accountability for results involves the creation of standards in each state for what a child should know and learn in reading and math in grades three through eight. 

Reading and Math in grades 3-8?.. Clear and precise statements that we, as educators are ?encouraged? to teach just the basics?
And it appears to, and I do believe completely originated from  the NCLB act.
Again, what a great idea on paper. Creating standards as if we never had those standards before?  


With those standards in place, student progress and achievement will be measured according to state tests designed to match those state standards and given to every child, every year.

?Those standards have always been in place?. But, again that sounds good on paper. I like reading it again as I did the first time. 
Ah ...it's so refreshing to read that our president cares so much about children and their education no matter the socio-economic status. Not all kids can voucher their way to a home school. But, that sure sounds good on paper.
OH and by the way, as long as the NCLB act has been on the books, we have yet to see all State tests align to the standards.  Why aren't they aligned? Well, we are told that that little problem is being ?fixed?.
 So, when we do not make AYP even though the problem lies elsewhere, it is ----you guessed it, it becomes the fault of school districts, schools, and teachers.  Hmmm, something is not right in this picture, but who knew?
 Who is going to tell the public that the state just hasn?t fixed that minor problem. (in our state these past few years the problem has been with the alignment in mathematics).

Like all good teachers, and nurturing folks, we are told to be patient.   In the meantime, schools are put on probation, and eventually on placed restrictive action. Why? If we do not meet AYP by one point, the first year and again by another 10+ points the following year to make up for the lost one point. The point system accounts for more than just a test. There is the area of attendance. One sick kid could put us as a school over the top to R1.

By goodness, we were more focused on teaching all the standards before the act made its way into our lives.  Yet, now we see more and more classrooms scrambling to post standards on walls, to teach kids to repeat the standards before every lesson,so that when the state dept walks in, we are not written up AGAIN. If people only knew the half of it. No wonder folks are running like hot cakes to the nearest HOME SCHOOL.  We are losing out ability to teach.  


The new law will empower parents, citizens, educators, administrators and policymakers with data from those annual assessments.


Annual assessments?. We test weekly, bi weekly, monthly and each trimester,r depending on the demand. The demand to show scores to parents in the hallway, the demand to prove growth to the State dept. The fulfillment of the required  EPSS. The amount of testing/assessing that happens in your average PS class  would blow your mind. It also takes  up precious teaching time.  


When President Bush delivered his education reform proposal to Congress last year, he said, "We must confront the scandal of illiteracy in America, seen most clearly in high-poverty schools, where nearly 70 percent of fourth-graders are unable to read at a basic level." The National Assessment of Educational Progress has found that average reading scores for 17-year-olds have not improved since the 1970s. In 1998, 60 percent of 12th-graders were reading below proficiency. Perhaps even more distressing is that this trend of low performance by our schools reaches back more than two decades, during which time the taxpayers have spent $125 billion on elementary and secondary education.

Ok, so this NCLB act is going to make things better? Seems to me that such a scandal of illiteracy began just about the time when PACMAN was born, ::) and the rest is Game boy history. Come on. Can we not at least be honest here?  Look at some other crucial factors beside a big jump to blame the teacher/school system, alone. Ok, maybe we should have made more home visits to "encourage" children to read more at home. Oh wait, we did that too. hmmm We still 'encourage' kids to read, read, read...instead of watching the tube. Our bad. While I can?t argue with data, I can argue that the data does not necessarily prove that the children can?t read based on a failing system. But, that is what is being argued here and in the national media.  


 For years we have been measuring success in schools by how many dollars we spend, how many computers and textbooks we purchase, and how many promising programs we create. Too many of our nation's schools have not measured up because our measures for success have been ineffective.

Oh ok, well, then let?s just TAKE AWAY ALL OF THE ABOVE AND SEE how the system copes.  Hmm, great idea.
 Measuring is Key, if a system wants to solve a problem, sure. I agree.  But what collection of data t shows that we have been spending TOO MUCH? What can the system do without books, computers, and choice programs. The government is sure spending a lot of money on training teachers in these NEW PROGRAMS now.


That's why under the No Child Left Behind Act of 2001, which passed the U.S. Congress with strong bipartisan support, states are required to use a method of measuring student progress that teachers use in their classrooms every day?testing.

And, man oh man, do we test kids!  


We need to test children on their academic knowledge and skills for the same reason we take them to the dentist to see whether or not they have cavities?because we need to know. As caring adults, we want the children in our lives to have healthy teeth because we know that their teeth have to last a long time. If the dentist finds that their teeth are not healthy, then we get the cavity filled, and we teach them how to brush correctly, to use dental floss and avoid too much sugar. Children don't like going to the dentist, and we don't like the expense, but we do it because it's the right thing to do

Ouch. That hurts my root canal. Stop it, you?re making me laugh! Get the gas. Get the gas!

Under the No Child Left Behind Act, each state retains the responsibility to decide what their students should learn in each grade. States are to develop rigorous academic standards (most are already doing this), and those standards should drive the curriculum, which, in turn, must drive instruction. Annual statewide assessments will be aligned with the curriculum to provide an external, independent measure of what is going on in the classroom, as well as an early indicator showing when a student needs extra help.
The results of these tests can be used to direct resources, such as after-school tutoring or summer school, toward those who are falling behind. Extra help is not a punishment. It is a responsibility that enables students to catch up and to increase their chances of success during the next school year.

UNDER the NCLB act, not above it, not beside it, not around it?.big bear hunt. UNDER IT!
We assess kids to drive instruction all the time, and frankly, that is a good thing.  In reality, the previous paragraph sounds good on paper, but there?s again more to the story.. We provide kids with extra help as much as possible. Ironically, we had more time and the funds when by offering tutoring and summer school in our district during the years before the NCLB act than we do now.


Successful public schools are not only in the best interest of students, parents and teachers, but they are also important to a strong economy and viable communities.

Yes, they sure are. I concur!

Employers need to have confidence that a high school diploma means something, that a graduate has the knowledge and skills needed to succeed. Members of a community need to have confidence that with each high school graduation, a new group of educated, productive citizens is on its way to taking on important roles in society.


Will they have such confidence when the they find out that the public schools have decided to alter the curriculum in order to appease the NCLB act?s demands to raise reading and math test scores, solely? The children are not getting enough in the current system?and I blame the original act.  There are more children being left behind, because they do not have a competitive edge of their home schooled peers.
Wouldn?t you want your child in public school to have the best?
Well, as it is, they are only receiving a fraction of the best compared to other school systems. I see the only difference being the amount of pressure to make all children to make the ideals that only on paper, a reality.  



Life is full of exams, judgment calls and forms. By the time most people reach the age of 20 they have already taken a driving test, filled out a credit card application, signed a lease, and submitted a W-2 form to the IRS. None of these activities is fun. All can be stressful, but they are all part of a life that we accept. In order to provide a quality education for every child in America, we must first test them to find out which children are not learning at the level or pace necessary to keep up.
U.S. Secretary of Education Rod Paige said, "Anyone who opposes annual testing of children is an apologist for a broken system of education that dismisses certain children and classes of children as unteachable."


Well, thank God I am not against testing. I am very much against  not being able to test what we are mandated to teach. Yes, that is one thing that I will not apologize for.   http://www.ed.gov/nclb/accountability/ayp/testingforresults.html
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 26, 2008, 07:59:29 PM
Yea, that rant......I mean objective analysis really focused on what reforms are necessary, along with suggestions and plans of implimentation   


 ::)
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 26, 2008, 08:05:22 PM
The Theory Behind No Child Left Behind Is Straightforward: The Federal Government Will Ask For Demonstrated Results On The Investment It Makes In Education. Local schools will remain under local control, but instead of just sending checks from Washington and hoping for the best, we are measuring results and holding schools accountable for teaching every student to read, write, add, and subtract.

The fact that the Feds are making it "straightforward", "allowing the local gov to take control", "holding schools accountable for teaching every student to read write and compute.....supports my very point. No wonder there is such a push to only teach the basics. It's right there in print.  My point all along has been that we aren't encouraged to teach a child everything he/she deserves. That is just not acceptable to me. Science and social studies, art, music and second language learning are on the back burner our schools lately. WHY?
Its right in the act. The pressure on public schools from even the State government's point of view...THE PED is to make schools accountable or what?
The What is; PRobationary actions that support NO ONE.
So, natually, school systems are not going to want to teach anything else.


We Must Improve Options For Parents. We must do more to help parents use their options when their children are trapped in struggling schools. We will work with school districts to provide parents with more timely and useful information about their transfer options and, especially in big cities, to help more students take advantage of the free intensive tutoring offered under NCLB.

Get out the "trap remover"! Holy crap! The kids are in danger. Such wording. Give me a break.

We Must Improve Teacher Quality. Bringing every student up to grade level requires a quality teacher in every classroom. President Bush worked with Congress to create a Teacher Incentive Fund that allows States and school districts to reward teachers who demonstrate results for their students and who make the tough decision to teach in the neediest schools.[/b]

That would be ME! Where's my 'incentive, Mr President?


The No Child Left Behind Act Is Changing More Than The Law - It Is Changing A Culture. We are leaving behind the days when schools shuffled children from grade to grade, especially minorities and children who do not speak English at home. We are making it clear that every child can learn, and every school must teach. There can be no compromise on the basic principles of NCLB: Every student must read, write, add, and subtract at grade level - that is not too much to ask.

As I see it, based on what is happening in our New Mexico school district, Bi-Lingual ed. is becoming a way of the past. Sadly. But, you go Mr. Pres. You tell it like it is! The system was a hell of a lot better before you tried to fix it. I am broad stroking here, too, btw, as I do belive that an ACT that is set up by law to help children is a good thing. This NCLB is flawed. Period. I have hope that the new administration will see that schools are running out of options instead of being given more. Isn't that what Bush wants? A better system. We aren't all seeing that. My point.


http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/10/20061005-2.html.

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 26, 2008, 08:27:45 PM
But, do the expectations from the NCLB act fit the punishment?

I think not.

What punishment are you talking about, and what expectations from NCLB are being punished?

Hell, MOST schools are not meeting AYP. There is a reason for this. The expectations ARE NOT YOUR USUAL EXPECTATIONS that can be reached, Ami!

Then New Mexico must have a lot of problems; most of the schools in Minnesota met their AYP.

And again, the "expectations" are set by the state, not the NCLB act. Perhaps your state should set more reasonable expectations?

 When the NCLB act was first enforced and set up in such a way(state handled or not) to meet certain unreasonable expectations the problems began. The NCLB act from it's birth stated that all children no matter what level, or ability, disability must be at the same point/grade level by a particular year. Blood out of a turnip. Water out of a rock.
and sure,
I applaud all the good things I hear and see, sure. The act itself isn't the problem, it is the flawed areas that particulary drive absurd instruction techniques and expectations to win at all costs..

If not, then instead of supporting the schools, teachers, the local governments were ENCOURAGED" to make sure that schools were going to suffer the consequence, with no regard to the details of what goes on in said schools....>There were and still are threats to cut funds, take away good teachers. There is a side bar of punitive actions...indirect, if you will.....when administrators mandate that we only each the basics. That punishes a lot of folks, especially the kids.
Directly or indirectly, NCLB is flawed, Ami.

BTw

Good for your school system, Ami. Kudos. Yes, NM'ican kids are not your typical MN type of kid.
 I am not going to deny that. We do have problems that most of the nation does not.(Mississippi? I guess) So, I speak from my own situtation here. I do. I also have some good things to say about the NCLB act.... but my focus is on those problems I see...problems that have trickled down the pike becasue of teh original act as I see it in the classroom, directly.


 Those problems will not be fixed by simply pressuring schools to only teach the basics. What happened to providing all kids the best, no matter their problems?


Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 26, 2008, 08:29:32 PM
Yea, that rant......I mean objective analysis really focused on what reforms are necessary, along with suggestions and plans of implimentation   


 ::)

YEs, Sirs.....I am waiting to hear from Hillary or Obama on that one.

I'll keep you informed.

Rantin' on, in the meantime.

Your excuse? I mean your excuse for your rants..ha ha....
Foot in mouth again.... ::)

Hey, btw, I apologized to you for playing with your head recently. I was wrong to make fun of you.

You're a good guy.

I just disagree with you on this one.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 26, 2008, 08:33:55 PM
With all due respect Miss Cynthia, listen to yourself.  School is SUPPOSED to teach the basics.  That's its PRIMARY FUNCTION.  At least it used to be.  All the pie in the sky stuff is cool, and sounds great, but NOT at the expense of teaching the basics.  And trying to inhibit that goal is an absolute detriment to the children

And if you hadn't noticed, I wasn't ranting.  I've consistely referenced suggestions that should be implimented and highligted entities trying to derail such.  So, so much for the "leveling" charge, whatever that was supposed to mean
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 26, 2008, 08:42:50 PM
Basically, boys, this is how I see things.

The NCLB act is the bastard father of a good attempt to father a good kid.

Nothing wrong with bastards.

But, there is something wrong with arrogance and blatant disregard for a child's education.

My main gripe is this;

See to it that the schools in question get more support and less punishment.
See to it that when you say annual testing, YOU MEAN ANNUAL testing.

The rhetoric that fills the lines in teh NCLB act is sickening.

The reality in our school lately is crystal clear;

We are encouraged, and down right asked to only teach the basics.

Ok, so take us all back to the years of the one room school house.

Take away quality and hold up a sign that reads;
Come to OUR school little children....we can offer you more. COme home to the factory where all is well, but don't bring too many other kids with you. Home is where ONLY ONE HEART is raised at at time.

Tongue in cheekie...dental work needed here.
Oh yeah that was in the document I posted..hmmm, clever of the GOV.

Vouchers, etc quick fixes?
Not necessarily true. But the fact that choice is on the table in such a seductive way during such a republican administration...you conservatives are going to jump all over this as if you are in the right.

Right? No, just ignorant. Bush made a few promises for change during his time in the big house.


Oh but then in the wake, all the kids who live in teh real world can take a hike.

I just don't see any magic fix here.

And then here comes the BIG BAD WOLF blowing down the houses of the little schools that coulda woulda ...who wanted to build up a strong structure...but couldnt' stand a chance with the bulldozer that plowed them over.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 26, 2008, 08:55:24 PM
With all due respect Miss Cynthia, listen to yourself.  School is SUPPOSED to teach the basics.  That's its PRIMARY FUNCTION.  At least it used to be.  All the pie in the sky stuff is cool, and sounds great, but NOT at the expense of teaching the basics.  And trying to inhibit that goal is an absolute detriment to the children

And if you hadn't noticed, I wasn't ranting.  I've consistely referenced suggestions that should be implimented and highligted entities trying to derail such.  So, so much for the "leveling" charge, whatever that was supposed to mean

Ok, sirs, I was flippant with you the other evening.
You aren't ranting. Ok you are not.

I am posting what I believe to be my truth and my opinion and based on many facts.

The discussion is a good one.

I listen to myself. I hear that children used to be given many opportunities for learning ALONG SIDE the basics. Hmmm, didn't hear myself say that we  shouldn't teach the basics.

Music for example, is valuable to the brain.
Art is critical.
Science...what child wants to grow up and not learn about the planets, how liquids change and why, how the damn sun works and much more.....
Social Studies.....who in this society wants to send a kids to middle school without any knowledge of what a map is, or how history has changed their own lives. (family is culture, is history, is Social etc)
Who said we should stop these other critical areas of the curriculum?
Many school districts in teh country.

Ok, sirs, if you want that, then fine. You talk about competitiveness. How is a child going to be able to compete in a world if they were not given the chance to understand what they experience in their daily lives; how ice melts, why. How the entire world around them operates?
If you think that the kids can do without...then you have very little idea of the development of a child's mind.

The push right now is that we do away with everything but the basics. I think that is fundamentally wrong.

These days because of an idiot NCLB act, we are in danger of losing a lot more than we thought. I see it. I didn't see that before. I have taught for years, and nothing has changed in terms of high standards. Who the heck thought suddently that the standards were not high enough. If so, then why not work on a way to bring all the elements in full view...in order to work.
I have never seen such a rush to push for a gold ring. WHY? TO PLEASE Bush, that's why. He had to do something as a sitting president, so he jumped on the NCLB act along with Kennedy...and hey. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.

I say that's wrong. Fix the act, let it work, but don't take away.....provide a better way....
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 26, 2008, 09:03:28 PM
When the NCLB act was first enforced and set up in such a way(state handled or not) to meet certain unreasonable expectations the problems began. The NCLB act from it's birth stated that all children no matter what level, or ability, disability must be at the same point/grade level by a particular year. Blood out of a turnip. Water out of a rock.

No, it does not.

As I already said, each state is supposed to define THREE LEVELS of achievement for each grade. And each state is supposed to set REASONABLE expectations. If your state has set unreasonable expectations, that is a problem with your state, not the NCLB act, which mandates REASONABLE expectations.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 26, 2008, 09:09:33 PM
No, they do not.

The NCLB act insists that ALL children read at grade level by a particular year.

Period.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 26, 2008, 09:16:48 PM
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080325083329.htm

http://www.annalsnyas.org/cgi/content/abstract/1060/1/219

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 26, 2008, 09:26:29 PM
No, they do not.

The NCLB act insists that ALL children read at grade level by a particular year.

Period.

Please quote the section of the NCLB act that says that.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 26, 2008, 09:28:42 PM
 Making Sense of Assessments       | Print |
By Candace Cortiella

During the past decade, federal and state education reform efforts have dramatically increased both the use of and attention to student assessments. Commonly referred to as "testing," assessing student learning through the use of a standardized format can provide valuable information for schools, parents and policymakers. Used inappropriately, these same tests can have serious negative implications for students, particularly those with learning disabilities (LD).

High Standards, High-Stakes

Seeking to move student learning to new heights, states have adopted challenging academic content standards. Today, almost all states have instituted statewide testing programs to measure student achievement against its content standards and 20 states have added "high-stakes" to their statewide assessment systems. Decisions to adopt policies that attach high stakes for students, such as grade promotion and/or awarding of a standard high school diploma, to student performance on statewide assessments are made by state departments of education, boards of education and state legislatures. Such systems have generally undergone years of development, public input, and phase-in before students are held to the requirements.

Results on statewide assessments can help guide systemic changes and improvements in teaching and learning. Results can be used to compare achievement across schools, districts and various racial, ethnic, income and other important subgroups of students. And, unlike less standardized forms of measurement, like grades and teacher-made tests, performance on statewide standardized testing gives parents a true picture of how their child is progressing. This is especially important for parents of students with learning disabilities, since recent findings of a large-scale survey of special education students reveal that grades given to students with disabilities at the secondary level have no correlation to real academic functioning. (Source: Youth with Disabilities: The Achievements of Youth with Disabilities During Secondary School. Reports from the National Longitudinal Transition Study-2 (NLTS2) 2003). Unfortunately, many states have allowed students with disabilities to be excluded, or exempted, from participating in statewide assessments, routinely administered out-of-level assessments (intended for students in lower grades), and/or have failed to report the scores of students with disabilities as part of the performance data.

While testing to determine achievement of required skills and knowledge based on high academic standards can provide important information about both teaching and learning, when the score on a single test is used to make high-stakes decisions about individual students, a host of issues emerge. For students with LD, high-stakes testing can lead to increases in grade retention, drop-out and the awarding of alternate types of diplomas that compromise postsecondary opportunities.

No Child Left Behind

While state-driven education reform activities have been underway for well over a decade, the past few years have also brought about major change in federal education policy. Ushered in by enactment of the No Child Left Behind Act of 2001 (NCLB), states are now required to administer statewide standardized assessments to all students in certain grades and content areas annually.

However, unlike state accountability systems, the testing requirements of NCLB serve only as a mechanism for school accountability. Assessment results, for both total school populations as well as subgroups of students such as those with disabilities, are used to identify schools that need to make substantial improvements in their delivery of instructional services and resulting student achievement. Once identified, schools engage in the development of improvement plans and a range of corrective actions designed to help improve achievement for all students.

Unfortunately, there is a growing misunderstanding that NCLB involves high-stakes decisions for students. This confusion is compounded by the fact that several states are using the same tests to both satisfy NCLB requirements and make high-stakes determinations. Currently 19 states are using the same test for NCLB and graduation and this number is likely to increase. However, such state practices should not lead to the conclusion that NCLB requires high-stakes. In fact, NCLB states that "nothing in this part shall be construed to prescribe the use of the academic assessments described in this part for student promotion or graduation purposes." [20 U.S.C. § 6311 (l)].

And, while states have allowed exemptions for students with disabilities, NCLB allows no such exemptions. Schools, districts and states are required to test all students and report the results. Test results must also be broken out by critical subgroups of students, such as those with disabilities, limited English proficiency, and the economically disadvantaged. This additional requirement has focused new attention on the underperformance of these historically poor performing groups of students.

Conclusion

As parents, educators and policymakers continue their important work of improving the academic achievement of all students and closing the achievement gap for so many who have failed to thrive, it is critical to understand the difference between state-imposed tests that may or may not carry high-stakes for students versus the testing requirements of NCLB. Many states have chosen to implement high-stakes testing for students, most frequently as a requirement for graduation, while NCLB testing carries consequences for schools and school districts. While high-stakes testing can have serious unintended consequences for students with LD, performance on such tests can provide a real picture of true student achievement and help improve instruction.


http://www.ncld.org/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=543

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 26, 2008, 09:35:53 PM
      Flexibility in implementing No Child Left Behind (NCLB) has been made available to states since the law was passed, but there are also firm deadlines and required actions. In April 2005 Secretary Spellings defined the ?bright lines? of NCLB, which cannot be compromised.  These include:
 
  
Performing annual assessments in reading and math for all students in grades 3-8, and at least once in high school.
Maintaining disaggregated data on student achievement by subgroup. The data must be provided in a timely manner to parents and the public in clear and understandable school and district report cards.
Meeting state standards for proficiency in reading and math by the 2013-14 school year. States must include all students in school accountability systems and set targets for all students to reach proficiency.Cultivating highly qualified teachers: States are responsible for implementing a rigorous system for ensuring that teachers are highly qualified, and providing support for recruiting and retaining the best and brightest teachers.
Providing options for families? especially those with children attending persistently low-performing schools -- including access to tutoring services, charter schools, and transfer options to better performing schools.

http://www.ed.gov/nclb/overview/intro/edpicks.jhtml?src=ln

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 26, 2008, 09:36:27 PM
No, they do not.

The NCLB act insists that ALL children read at grade level by a particular year.

Period.

Please quote the section of the NCLB act that says that.

I just did.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 26, 2008, 09:40:48 PM
I just did.

No, actually, you did not. You quoted from an overview, not the act itself. And besides, the section you quoted just says what I've been saying - the states are required to set reasonable goals.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 26, 2008, 09:51:33 PM
I say that's wrong. Fix the act, let it work, but don't take away.....provide a better way....

And I have no problem with fixing things that are flawed.  But saying you simply need smaller class sizes & more money (standard Democrat/Union talking points), when our $ per pupil is already higher than many other nations demonstrating far superior results in their childrens education, all the while making it virtually impossible to fire incompotent &/or predatorial teachers & administrators perpetuates precisely the status quo you're all so up in arms with
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 26, 2008, 10:11:55 PM
Reminds me of folks who blame the cop when they get a speeding ticket.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Just to be clear from the beginning, this is not a story about a few rotten apples. In a society seduced by the individual, our cultural referees often conclude that ?bad people? make bad choices. The proffered solution is to sack the bad people or to enlist sanctions so these amoral calculators decide that the ends do not justify the means.

Rather, this is a story of how systemic incentives in the No Child Left Behind Act (NCLB) lead educators to adopt a series of educational triage practices, practices that in many ways undermine equity.1 By educational triage, I refer to the process through which teachers divide students into three groups - safe cases, suitable cases for treatment, and hopeless cases - and ration resources to those students most likely to improve the school's scores.

The metaphor of triage, a practice usually employed in dire circumstances like the battlefield or the emergency room, poignantly captures the dynamics of many schools' responses to NCLB. In the name of improving schools' scores, some students must inevitably be sacrificed. The stakes are high for schools, which face serious sanctions for failing to meet adequate yearly progress targets; for students, who increasingly face retention if they do not pass state tests; and for teachers, who are judged by the number of students they ?save.?

A Hopeless Case

While this is a story about the broader consequences of NCLB on day-to-day life in schools, it is also a story about Javier, age eight and three-quarters, who has been deemed a ?hopeless case? by his teacher.
?Please! The one about the jumping spiders!? Javier squeals with an excitement typically reserved for kickball and Jolly Ranchers and a miniature girl named Esmeralda. Having traded in his fascination with Ralph S. Mouse for spiders, particularly those of the jumping variety, no other book will do. The educational platitude of our times - ?no child left behind? - seems strangely irrelevant in moments like these, where nothing could be more important than what spiders eat, and if they have teeth, and whether they bite, and, if so, how hard.

Yet every contour of Javier's third grade year was shaped by his elementary school's attempt to succeed within the confines of the Texas Accountability System. At the beginning of the school year, students were given a practice test of the Texas Assessment of Knowledge and Skills (TAKS). Teachers then divided their students into three groups: those who would pass, those close to passing (the ?bubble kids?), and those requiring significant remediation. Javier's reading score placed him in the remedial category. While the bubble kids in his class received extra attention in class, tutoring from the reading specialist, and tutoring after school and on Saturdays, Javier did not.
   

Two other benchmark tests were given during the school year. Javier still scored below the bubble. So it was little surprise that Javier failed the third grade reading test, which Texas students must pass to be promoted to the fourth grade.

And so began Javier's downward spiral. Though he was earning Bs and Cs until he failed the reading test, he now pulled Ds and Fs. His teacher lamented that he developed confidence issues that were impeding his performance. In a lunchtime conversation, Javier confided that he worried about staying in the third grade. I asked, ?When you worry about it, what do you think about?? Javier, eying his sneakers, softly replied, ?That I'm gonna stay there forever.?

Javier's Teachers: Living with Educational Triage

The teachers at Javier's school had worries of their own. Every teacher interviewed talked about the intense pressure she felt to increase her students' scores. The majority of teachers, in discussing this pressure, spoke emotionally about an annual faculty meeting at which a chart was revealed that listed each teacher's pass rate next to her name. In other words, a competitive economy where the sole currency was test scores was established within the confines of the school. It was a competition of which teachers were painstakingly aware. In these interviews, some teachers focused their comments on the negative self-valuations that resulted from their students' poor scores. As one teacher said:

    [Last year] I was so upset when their scores came back. They did real good on reading, but only 55% of my kids passed the math. And we went to this faculty meeting and they put every teacher's scores and pass rates up on the transparency, and I just wanted to cry. I felt so bad, like I had done something wrong, like I was a bad teacher.

Other teachers emphasized that their colleagues make judgments about their professional competence based on these scores. According to this teacher:

    Everything rides on it [the test]?.You can't be a teacher who deviates from the average-you know, the average for the school. They pass out this paper with everyone's scores and they put your scores up on a transparency, so if you're on the lower side, people think you're a terrible teacher and you're doing something wrong, and if you're on the higher side, everyone says, ?Oooo, he's doing something right.? The thing is, even if you are a terrible teacher and you get high scores, that's all that matters.

Finally, other teachers simply expressed outrage that this practice occurred. As this teacher related:

    I guess they're trying to humiliate us into getting their scores up?.It's all accountability, accountability, accountability. Why don't they just strip you naked and make you stand on a table? That's the same thing as putting your scores up there.

Yet this is the favorable outcome proponents of high-stakes accountability desired, not a malfunction of the system. A teacher's professional competence is now showcased by her students' test scores. If these teachers don't want to be labeled as ?bad teachers,? it is argued, then they should work harder to become ?good ones.? But the only measure of good teaching in this system is the percentage of students in a teacher's class who pass the test. Any other notion of good teaching has been displaced. To the detriment of the students below the bubble, teachers, using a series of educational triage practices, strive to become ?better teachers.?

The Bubble Kids

Administrators in this school district often credited improvements in test scores to recently instituted systems of data-driven decision making. But rather than being used to address the individual needs of every student, data were employed to target some students at the expense of others. The district required teachers to use each benchmark test to set a passing target for the next text. The formula for setting this target assumed that bubble kids would become passers. Focusing on the bubble kids was official district policy, and teachers thus felt persistent pressure to focus disproportionate attention on these students.

Teachers did not describe the bubble kids in technical terms, but in a vocabulary of triage. The following were teachers' typical responses to the question, ?Who are the bubble kids??:

    The ones that will pass with a little more help. With the [the remedial kids], it's really a lost cause. They must have fallen through the cracks somehow.

    Those are the ones that you can count on to pass if you move them up a little bit. They're the ones we do one-to-one with and small group instruction in class.

    The ones who miss by one or two points-they just needed a little extra help to pass so we concentrate our attention on that group. The bubbles are the ones who could make it.

    They are your first priority, the ones whose folders you move to the top of your pile.

Theoretically, the bubble keeps moving down, and teachers eventually get to everyone. However, a kid like Javier can stay below the bubble for two-thirds of the year before he is deemed a suitable case for treatment (if he ever is at all). Ironically, the lowest-scoring children are given the least attention during the course of the school year. At this school, the number of students languishing below the bubble was sizeable. By the final benchmark test, 35% were still below the bubble.

Teachers often spoke of the need to focus on those students for whom we can have hope. Given the imperative of annual improvement, hope can be kept alive only for those students close to passing the test this year. As one teacher summed up:

    If you have a kid who is getting a 22, even if they improve to a 40, they won't be close-but if you have a kid with a 60, well, they're in shooting range. Bush says that no child should be left behind, but?the reality in American public schools is that some kids are always going to be left behind. Especially in this district, when we have the emphasis on the bubble kids. Some are?they're just too low.

There is something profoundly troubling about a law that leads dedicated educators to discard hope for children who have yet to turn nine years old in the service of saving those who have a better shot at passing this year's test.

Perverse Incentives

How did educational triage affect Javier? Javier hovered below the bubble throughout the entire year. As a result, he was denied access to the scarce educational resources reserved for the bubble kids. He failed both the first and second TAKS reading tests. Undeterred, he agreed to go to summer school to prepare to take the third and final test. He passed. But his grades had plummeted after he failed the first test, and his teacher decided not to promote him. His mother, who spoke only halting English, did not contest his teacher's decision.

In the period between the first and second tests, I once asked Javier what the worst thing about staying in the third grade would be. Javier, never one to waste words, did not hesitate.

?You got to take the test all overs again.?

It would be simple to blame educational triage on teachers. But sanctimonious exhortations that teachers are behaving badly will not stop educational triage. Nor will anemic defenses predicated on the notion that NCLB does not formally require teachers to triage their students. Perverse incentives to focus on those closest to passing are woven throughout NCLB. It is these incentives, not ethically-challenged educators, that are the problem.

When I concluded this study in 2003, NCLB was not yet fully implemented. I hoped that NCLB would not impel the diffusion of educational triage beyond state boundaries. Unfortunately, I have since received letters and emails from educators in more than 20 states lamenting that educational triage is occurring in their schools. Educational triage is not an isolated problem, but a widespread response to systemic pressures.

Without exposing the lived realities of schools grappling with the demands of NCLB, its narrow conception of accountability emerges unscathed, if only because test scores continue to rise. A closer examination of these trends reveals that the cost of these increases is the unequal treatment of children unlucky enough to find themselves below the bubble. These students, as young as eight years old, are the casualties of NCLB.

http://nochildleft.com/2005/nov05triage.html
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 26, 2008, 10:21:58 PM
I just did.

No, actually, you did not. You quoted from an overview, not the act itself. And besides, the section you quoted just says what I've been saying - the states are required to set reasonable goals.


 The states are REQUIRED to do what ever they are doing BASED ON BECAUSE OF the NCLB act. That's what I have been saying here.
The original ACT was set up to threaten and provide more punitive actiosn than support. Why? For those who felt and still feel that vouchers and homeschooling are the only way to go in this arena? You all tend to complain more about that point than anything else. I don't hear you speaking up about the fact that Bush/Kennedy..whomever wanted ALL KIDS TO READ AT THE SAME LEVEL AT THE SAME TIME.


What a way to make a run for the bank of more private schools, vouchers, charters, etc.

Any school or home environment-classroom can always benefit from improvements. Of course.



 

My argument is that there seems to be a push to keep the public schools from becoming a total and working system.  There is no microscope focused on how to make such improvements and still assure best practices in terms of a well rounded education. The point is that the GOVERNMENT be it the local governemtn or the  FEDERAL government is at the root of this dental problem....Talk about needing a good endodondist. The ACT stated so...at least it did in the beginning. Oh, and you are going to shed light on the fact that it has healed and become one with all??

In the formative years of the NCLB act, it was clear to many that the expectations were that all children, no matter the level, or need, or disability must read at a certain level and by a particular date.



Perhaps it has loosened such expectations and listened to teachers overall. I hope this is true. Good for Bush's team. This one for the gripper slipper of BS that has slowly made its way into the mainstream.  ha. Ok trying to make a bit of light.
Sirs, btw, I would never have "teased you", if you hadn't made a personal remark to me much earlier in this thread which I found to be insulting.
I'll keep it at that.
 We are IN DANGER OF losing children?s minds and creativity.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 26, 2008, 10:26:34 PM
The original ACT was set up to threaten and provide more punitive actiosn than support.

Please quote the section of the act that defines the "punitive actions" to be taken.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 26, 2008, 10:28:12 PM
I say that's wrong. Fix the act, let it work, but don't take away.....provide a better way....

And I have no problem with fixing things that are flawed.  But saying you simply need smaller class sizes & more money (standard Democrat/Union talking points), when our $ per pupil is already higher than many other nations demonstrating far superior results in their childrens education, all the while making it virtually impossible to fire incompotent &/or predatorial teachers & administrators perpetuates precisely the status quo you're all so up in arms with

Ok, well then you stand on that premise, Sirs. IT's all about the unions and the dems. NOT.

I can see right through your need to put people in a box in that regard, and you proved me right.

OUR $$'s I thought this wasnt' about money. I thought this was about bad teachers and getting rid of academic second class subjects like EVERYTHING THAT IS NOT BASIC?

Your need to switch thoughts in the midst of a thread is only showing your need to prove a conservative point of view...You still do not have a clue, but I dont' expect you too.

We agree on one point here....our system can not able to compete in the world...not at the rate you are driving the car. We need more, not punishment, not rhetoric like I read on the government website. We need visionaries who understand when  system isn't working.
Professors, teachers, and many in the community see the broken system as it has turned out to become....full of the BASICS? NO...we are falling away from the basics when we insist that our kids stepFORd up to the plate....
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 26, 2008, 10:39:49 PM
Quote
Professors, teachers, and many in the community see the broken system as it has turned out to become....full of the BASICS? NO...we are falling away from the basics when we insist that our kids stepFORd up to the plate....

Hard to build a house without a solid foundation.

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 26, 2008, 10:49:53 PM
Quote
Professors, teachers, and many in the community see the broken system as it has turned out to become....full of the BASICS? NO...we are falling away from the basics when we insist that our kids stepFORd up to the plate....

Hard to build a house without a solid foundation.



The house is built with the professional efforts of all, BT. When ALL come together with the same realization taht children are not engaged enough in the learning process, there is a weak house ...only the big bad wolf can win.

Perhaps, HE has. I hope not.

Cynthia

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 26, 2008, 10:52:24 PM
The original ACT was set up to threaten and provide more punitive actiosn than support.

Please quote the section of the act that defines the "punitive actions" to be taken.

There are leading "suggestions" that each State take it upon itself to make SURE these scores are reached....thus the basis for the NCLB punitive implications, Ami.

That has been clear from the getgo.

Hey, btw, feel better. Get rid of that cold.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 27, 2008, 12:59:49 AM
http://www.emsc.nysed.gov/deputy/nclb/parents/facts/eng/eng-sini.html


This is one of the many sites I have 'visited' this evening in the genre of NCLB. It seems that schools all over the country are experiencing the same sort of thing. AYP.  I am convinced now, more than ever, that the Republican adminstration wants to push for something "other than Public school system". Ok, ironic as it is...I am all for teaching children about God. I am all for bringing back prayer in schools. But, could this be about that? Could this be about the RIGHT" agenda to privatize schooling in order to teach faith in a God?
Ok, it's a stretch, but I am going to wonder about that one.

 
As for the NYC SCHOOLS HERE...I might be wrong, but the rhetoric seems to be the same across the board, here.

I see now why people on the "outside" come to such a quick judgement of the system, overall.

With such demands and unwillingness to offer "time for change", I see that this issue of AYP and a rush to punish is at the forefront.  


If your child?s school is receiving Title I funds and is in need of improvement, you may have new choices.

How sad. How sad that the nation's only "offering" of a quality education for the masses is as such;  "If Your child's school is receiving Title I funds AND IS IN NEED OF IMPROVEMENT, you may have choices??

 Well, now I see what Sirs and others have been promoting. The idea that it's time for a private, homeschool,magic charter school to step up and win that plate.

 I work with kids who deserve more. I work daily with kids who's parents will not transfer at a whim, and move over to the homeschooling genre. Give me a break.
 
That is so very unfair. Private schools equate to $. Homeschools equate to $. Charter equate to $. Of course, now I see. Reduce the public schools to so much of nothing, that THERE IS NO OTHER CHOICE.

The masses do not matter. There are too many "masses" of underprivileged kids who do matter, though. Send them on to a neighborhood school where they will GET A BETTER DEAL and all will be fine?
Sad, and not realistic.


Your child may be able to transfer to a better school in your school district (public school choice) if your child attends a Title I school in need of improvement.

And let me make this clear. When any public school on or off AYP status decides to be trained in a research-based program  in order to make that AYP, the most people do not realize one minor fact in this big matter; that it takes several (2-6 years depending on the program) to show improvement in test scores.

When we adopted the Terc Investigations math program, for example,we were reminded that it might take at least six years to show improvement in scores. SIX YEARS! The schools in PA have already experienced such a challenge. Our reading program; The Houghton Mifflin Core Reading program(while it is fabulous in scope,in so many ways) can not promise such improvement in scores for at least six years!
THE NCLB ACT WANTS improvement yesterday....or we are on probation.
Sure, let the year 2014 come up soon enough, but that's not good enough for the gov. We must make that grade NOW.
Who has time for that when we are to make the AYP in one year!? There are so many details in this process.


Your child may be able to receive extra help, known as supplemental educational services, if his or her school is a Title I school in need of improvement for one year and fails to make adequate yearly progress.

 The NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND (NCLB) ACT of 2001 is a federal law to improve education for all children. It holds schools responsible for results, gives parents greater choices, and promotes teaching methods that work. This fact sheet will point out a part of the law that is important for parents to know.
All schools must make Adequate Yearly Progress. 


The NCLB law requires every state to set high academic standards and yearly goals for achievement. By 2014, by law all children should be performing at the proficiency level in reading, language arts, and math, and science. Adequate yearly progress (AYP) is the minimum level of performance school districts and schools must achieve every year to meet this goal.

Ok, so by the year 2014, these programs will have made a difference in the area of child's ability to read and compute. This is the first time I am reading that science matters. But, in one year?    


Title I schools that fail to show adequate yearly progress for two years in a row in the same subject and grade are considered in need of improvement.



A clear example of reaction vs  procactive. So then what?



Title I schools in need of improvement must develop a plan for improvement and involve parents in the plan. The New York State Education Department and the local school district or charter school board will help the school get resources and improve teaching.

New York, New Mexico.
Chicago, St. Paul...no difference.  





Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 27, 2008, 01:15:29 AM
Quote
Well, now I see what Sirs and others have been promoting. The idea that it's time for a private, homeschool,magic charter school to step up and win that plate.

I doubt you do see.

Because you aren't seeing the converse. If the school isn't receiving title 1 funds and isn't in need of improvement then all is well and there is no need to intervene and offer viable options to the children attending underperforming schools.

What NCLB offers is hope.

No different than the hope that you have that Hillary or Obama will magically step in and fix the system.

Except NCLB offers a bit more concrete hope that children aren't forever abandoned to the soft bigotry of low expectations, because it offers alternatives.



Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 27, 2008, 01:16:01 AM
http://blog.mlive.com/taking_notes/2008/02/clinton.html


I hope so.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: kimba1 on March 27, 2008, 01:16:17 AM
whoa
we hit level 24!!

bt this gotta be a record
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 27, 2008, 01:17:03 AM
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4309891

again, I hope so.

http://edwize.org/kennedy-obama-and-nclb

Hmmm, ok.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 27, 2008, 01:25:51 AM
Quote
Well, now I see what Sirs and others have been promoting. The idea that it's time for a private, homeschool,magic charter school to step up and win that plate.

I doubt you do see.

Because you aren't seeing the converse. If the school isn't receiving title 1 funds and isn't in need of improvement then all is well and there is no need to intervene and offer viable options to the children attending underperforming schools.

What NCLB offers is hope.

No different than the hope that you have that Hillary or Obama will magically step in and fix the system.

Except NCLB offers a bit more concrete hope that children aren't forever abandoned to the soft bigotry of low expectations, because it offers alternatives.





I don't doubt that you see, I know you don't see, BT.

NCLB offers very little hope when it comes to abandoning the overall education for all children.

Low expectations?
That's what you think?

You have not been listening.

It's not about lower expectations.

My god, Man.
Do you not read?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 27, 2008, 01:28:54 AM
But of course YOU READ.. You read what you want to read into this.

You just don't see the facts as they are laid out here.

You rest on your rhetoric and low expectation stance, and refuse to see that there is a dumbing down of sorts happening to children under the veil of No children left behind?
You do not read the details in this.

I pray that OBAMA wins this election.

You are not in the classroom, BT.

You are in your armchair, sad to say.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 27, 2008, 01:31:34 AM
Have you studied how a child learns?

I ask you that, BT.


Do you know how to teach a child.

Don't bring in your sister as a crutch.

Do you know how a child learns?

Answer that simple question, please.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 27, 2008, 01:52:46 AM
Quote
Do you know how to teach a child.

Yes.

I have taught a child, mine.

I taught him to brush his teeth.

I taught him how to ride a bike, throw a baseball, saw a piece of wood.

I taught him how to mow a lawn, how to sell a service and how to run a business.

I taught him how to read, how to detect the influences of the Byrds on REM. I taught him how to debate either side of an issue.

I taught him how to drive, when accelerating is better than braking, why defensive driving is better than aggresive driving.

And all the time i was teaching him, he was teaching me.



Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 27, 2008, 02:01:33 AM
whoa
we hit level 24!!

bt this gotta be a record

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close!
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: kimba1 on March 27, 2008, 05:23:02 AM
give it time we`re not exactly slowing down
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 27, 2008, 08:24:57 AM
There are leading "suggestions" that each State take it upon itself to make SURE these scores are reached....thus the basis for the NCLB punitive implications, Ami.

Please quote the section of the act.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on March 27, 2008, 10:26:57 AM
I think we all have an idea of how to teach some things.

We know that people do not all respond in the same way to the same stimuli: some people are visual, some are auditory, some learn best with pictures, others with the spoken word, others with text.

What actually happens in the brain- the electrochemical events that put an idea or concept or system of actions into the memory- these are things that are rarely dealt with in education classes. They are still in the process of development, and are mostly studied in the branches of medicine that deal with brain disfunctions due to disease and accidents.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 27, 2008, 12:03:04 PM
Ok BT, perhaps that was an unfair question.

But, children deserve more than they are getting these days in the public schools.

When Bush set up the NCLB act I do believe he wanted children in the public schools to receive the best education possible. Somehow through this whole process, the argument has "trickled down" to
a)vouchers
b)home schooling
c)charter schools.


I find that interesting. So, perhaps those behind the NCLB act wanted such a "discussion" to occur all the while.

Nowhere do we read that children are actually offered MORE in their learning day. Not by a long shot. Instead the argument turns to punitive reactions, harsh criticism, etc.

When a teacher dedicates his/her life to educating others, more often than not, there is a valuable plan of action involved.

But, all of a sudden we see/read that teachers are
a)bad apples
b)whining about accountability
c)asking for more money


I think the nature of this country (or perhpas this message board for the most part) lends itself to the antithesis of such progress. This administration has taken a decent 'act' and made it into a scene of nothing but hardship and struggles--for who?

The children.
They are going to lose out.

Now, otoh, if the act is reviewed and corrective action in a positive way is 'leveled' in its direction, perhpas we can see the Public Schools and the purity of education for all children, come back to life again.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 27, 2008, 01:15:27 PM





Rewards Schools and States That Narrow the Achievement Gap. Schools and states that make significant progress in closing the achievement gap will be honored with awards from a "No Child Left Behind" school bonus fund and an "Achievement in Education" state bonus fund.



Puts in Place Consequences for Failure. States that fail to make adequate yearly progress for their disadvantaged students will be subject to losing a portion of their administrative funds. Sanctions will be based on a states failure to narrow the achievement gap in meeting adequate yearly progress requirements in math and reading in grades 3 through 8. Progress on state assessments will be confirmed by state results on an annual sampling of 4th and 8th grade students on the National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) in math and reading.


Protects Homeschools and Private Schools. Federal requirements do not apply to home schools or private schools. Protections in current law would be maintained.


Then we read that Home schools and Private schools ARE PROTECTED? Well, of course they are protected. Of course.

Our school has met AYP since the inception of the NCLB act some 6 years+.  The ?rewards? Bush talks about here come in the form of an ?honor? an ?award? and a bonus fund?  Ok, if you say so Mr. President.  If its there, hasnt affected us one bit.
Otoh, the ?consequences for failure? really pack a mighty punch, which is right up the alley of the Bush administration. He has invaded another country, so why not do the same here in this country, in the form of invading a child?s right to receive a well rounded education.  Now, I see why the ?consequences for failure? outlined below seem to be packed with reprimands and SANCTIONS.
But no one sees what goes on behind the scenes of this act. ?. Leaders (in the form of human beings) who have an honest and genuine desire to help children, but who are  pressured to make sure TEACHERS (also in the form of human beings) make that grade-YESTERDAY.



 I don?t see your typical private school teaching only the basics, btw. I don?t see your typical Home school doing that. But, most of the children in this nation attend Public Schools. Yet, they are given LESS because of the SANCTIONS AND PUNITIVE REACTIONS.
And, while  I do not disagree with the bottom line of anything called a NCLB act; an act that wants to ensure  that all kids can learn to read, write and compute in math. I believe that to be cheating our kids out of more. The curriculum is boiling down to ONE SIZE FITS ALL curriculum as I see it daily in my classroom. We must teach all kids from the same book, with very little time to differentiate instruction. That's not the way it used to be. Education in the form of today's reading first schools fail to understand child development.
I will say it again, there?s nothing wrong with change, improvement and a desire to help a child learn. But, as I see it daily in my work place, schools are unjustly being pressured, kids are pressured to the point where they are not making the grade. I believe the idea of all for one, by a said time is what is wrong with the act.

The system was actually doing quite well before, and the goals were very much attainable. Perhaps those goals were never met to be attained by the Bush administration. I wouldn?t put it past him to nudge the Public Schools completely out.

Children are not given ENOUGH, and isn?t that what the NCLB was set up to do; provide more for children. It isn?t happening that way, as I see it---except in the private sector. hmmm.




Supplements Reading First with an Early Childhood Reading Initiative. States participating in the Reading First program will have the option to receive "Early Reading First" funding to implement research-based reading programs in existing pre-school programs and Head Start programs that feed into participating elementary schools. The purpose of this program is to illustrate on a larger scale recent research findings that children taught pre-reading and math skills in pre-school enter school ready to learn reading and mathematics.


Kindergarten children are forced to sit for 90 minutes to chant, repeat, memorize letters and sounds. SIT FOR 90 MINUTES?....which is  mandated by the State which supports the reading first reading program, btw.Trickles DOWN FROM THE ORIGINAL ACT, I might add.
Kindergarten children need to experience the world around them. The brain demands it. A basic ECE philosophy is not even considered within this ACT, apparently.  That?s why I ask if you, BT, if you know anything about child development.
The NCLB act needs to be reorganized to support the child.  ?and yet people complain that it is the teachers who are not willing to give and provide. That is nonsense.  The children are losing out. That has been my assertion all along.









The Administration is committed to ensuring that every child can read by the third grade. To help meet this goal, a new program will be established known as the "Reading First" initiative.
Ok, I'll say it again. READING FIRST, sure ok..there's nothing wrong with that. But, the children deserve more. Oh and btw, they were already reading well before the act (where I teach, anyway). Now, they are provided with less of an education, because of the mandates and restrictions of this Reading First innitiative. There are critical time issues- not enough time to teach other subjects, too many assessments given to appease the adminitration. There is no time for anything else. The kids are going to be the ones who lose out.


 
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/reports/no-child-left-behind.html#3
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: _JS on March 27, 2008, 01:35:00 PM
Quote
The curriculum is boiling down to ONE SIZE FITS ALL curriculum as I see it daily in my classroom. We must teach all kids from the same book, with very little time to differentiate instruction. That's not the way it used to be. Education in the form of today's reading first schools fail to understand child development.

I think you hit the nail on the head Cynthia.

Also, how does it make sense to pull resources from a school that is not meeting standards? Do we have a system of inspectors as in the UK, like OFSTED, that goes to the schools and gives some sort of in-depth analysis as to why a school is failing? The NCLB would seem to demand such a program.

I'm the first to admit that I am not an expert in early child development or education. I have two young children, one of whom is in school (second grade). I want all children to receive the absolute best education possible no matter their race, gender, or class. To me it isn't about the future of this country, but the future of this world, of future generations,  - of humanity.

I have not heard or read good things about NCLB. Not from teachers, not from administrators, not from the governors of states who are forced to implement it. If a project is failing then we need to go back to the drawing board and either alter it, or start from the beginning. The bottom line is: is NCLB a success or not? Don't measure it by its own standards either. We can use independent performance measures and judge it by those criteria.

If a new law is written, lets use the experts and their expertise to do it. The educators and experts in early childhood development are the one's who know. It would be folly to ignore them.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 27, 2008, 01:41:22 PM
Also, how does it make sense to pull resources from a school that is not meeting standards? Do we have a system of inspectors as in the UK, like OFSTED, that goes to the schools and gives some sort of in-depth analysis as to why a school is failing? The NCLB would seem to demand such a program.

Actually, the NCLB mandates that states INCREASE funding to schools that perform poorly, until they fail to meet PROGRESS goals (not an absolute milestone) for three consecutive years. And after that, the administration budget is reduced - not the teaching budget - because the state is mandated to take over control of the school, and the state has it's own budget for that.

I find it interesting that people keep on bringing in editorials about what the act does and does not do, rather than quoting from the act directly. I guess it's because if they quoted from the act directly, they would contradict their own arguments.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 27, 2008, 01:59:26 PM
Kimba,

What does #24 mean?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 27, 2008, 02:03:19 PM
Quote
But, children deserve more than they are getting these days in the public schools.

Precisely.

They don't need to be taught to the test, they don't need to be triaged, they don't need to be pawns in school administrators attempts to game the system so they can protect their turf.

They need to taught building  upon a solid foundation of reading, writing, arithmetic and the sciences.

And the results should be measurable.

If one quarter of the energy was spent doing just that instead of playing blame games, and making excuses we wouldn't be having this discussion and the public school monopoly would be safe.

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 27, 2008, 02:05:09 PM
I find it interesting that people keep on bringing in editorials about what the act does and does not do, rather than quoting from the act directly. I guess it's because if they quoted from the act directly, they would contradict their own arguments.

Hit the nail on the head, with that one Ami
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: kimba1 on March 27, 2008, 02:10:45 PM
it`s how many pages so far about this subject
right now it`s 25
it`s indicated on top
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: _JS on March 27, 2008, 02:15:11 PM
Also, how does it make sense to pull resources from a school that is not meeting standards? Do we have a system of inspectors as in the UK, like OFSTED, that goes to the schools and gives some sort of in-depth analysis as to why a school is failing? The NCLB would seem to demand such a program.

Actually, the NCLB mandates that states INCREASE funding to schools that perform poorly, until they fail to meet PROGRESS goals (not an absolute milestone) for three consecutive years. And after that, the administration budget is reduced - not the teaching budget - because the state is mandated to take over control of the school, and the state has it's own budget for that.

I find it interesting that people keep on bringing in editorials about what the act does and does not do, rather than quoting from the act directly. I guess it's because if they quoted from the act directly, they would contradict their own arguments.

As I said, I'm no expert. As I also said, if the NCLB is meeting independent performance measures and therefore a "success" then it should be kept.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 27, 2008, 02:28:52 PM
Who Do You Believe? Me or Your Lying Eyes?
Published by Robert Pondiscio on January 18, 2008 in Curriculum, Opinion and Testing. Tags: accountability, narrowing of the curriculum, NCLB.
I respect and admire eduwonk, but I have to strenuously disagree with his characterization of the impact of testing and No Child Left Behind as ?hysterics.? I wholeheartedly support accountability, and I don?t have a problem with standardized tests. Really, I don?t. But one cannot blithely dismiss the narrowing of the curriculum that has occurred in schools ? especially struggling inner city schools ? in order to beef up test scores. It?s literacy, math and not much else, despite compelling evidence that content knowledge is the key to reading comprehension. We?re serving students in our most challenged schools a thin gruel that doesn?t meet any reasonable standard for an education. We simply have to do better, not dismiss the critics. The NY Times highlighted a few schools that are aiming higher, but to suggest that this shows testing concerns are overblown is a curious conclusion.
It bothers me to hear a well-respected policy analyst take such a stance, for I fear it could invite other less serious observers to downplay the deleterious impact of testing culture, rather than do the hard work of creating and implementing an accountability strategy that resists being gamed, dumbed-down, or measures only the thinnest slices of school performance. ?All that test prep isn?t that bad,? it will be argued. ?At least they?re learning something.? Isn?t it pretty to think so?
Make no mistake. There are classrooms where students go weeks, months, an entire school year without social studies, science, art and music. I?ve seen them, been in them, and worked with teachers who, despite great misgivings, felt pressured to run them. It?s neither hysterics nor hyperbole. It?s a legitimate issue that left unaddressed or blithely dismissed, could ultimately stop reform dead in its tracks. The very worst thing that can occur is if people believe the accountability cure is worse than the disease. ?Drill and kill? is not the issue. It?s kids who can decode, but can?t comprehend. It?s kids who get to high school and college without the functional knowledge they need to succeed in higher education and as full participants in society. It?s complacency that kids who score on grade level are being educated, when all they?re doing is stepping over a hurdle that is conveniently lowered year after year.
Dismiss it at your peril. It?s real. I?ve seen it, lived it. I?ll introduce you to the students who?ve been damaged by it. Accountability was designed to help them, not do further harm. Good enough is not good enough.
Oh, my. I?m having a Hillary moment?.I just don?t want to see us fall backwards.
Update: The redoubtable eduwonk thinks I doth protest too much. Perhaps so. But why use two words when ten will do?
Update II: eduwonkette has my back.

http://www.coreknowledge.org/blog/2008/01/18/who-do-you-believe-me-or-your-lying-eyes/



Ami,
You?ll enjoy this one!
What we're quibbling about is who's responsible for cutting social studies and science - NCLB or teachers/schools. According to Barone, it's the schools, stupid. Because all schools don't narrow their curriculum post-NCLB, NCLB does not provide incentives to narrow the curriculum.
http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/eduwonkette/2008/02/social_studies_science_and_ncl.html

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 27, 2008, 02:36:02 PM
What a shock.....more editorials vs pointing out the exact provisions of contention within NCLB      :-\
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: _JS on March 27, 2008, 02:49:17 PM
What a shock.....more editorials vs pointing out the exact provisions of contention within NCLB      :-\

Sirs, you might try contributing to the debate in a meaningful way as opposed to negatively attacking people who are trying to make positive contributions. I seriously doubt your last two posts are what Bt had in mind when he asked for the level of debate to be raised.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 27, 2008, 02:51:33 PM
http://www.cta.org/issues/esea/Compelling+NCLB+Stories.htm


stories....tied to test.

Release us from the ropes of wrath.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 27, 2008, 02:53:08 PM
Js, if you'd bother going back in the thread, you wouldn't look so weak in this attempt to minimize my criticism.  FYI, I have contributed substantial commentary and suggestions, all rebuffed because "I'm not a teacher, I can't possibly know what I'm talking about"
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 27, 2008, 02:53:58 PM
Counting up...counting down....
Go!
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 27, 2008, 02:55:22 PM
#376
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 27, 2008, 02:55:55 PM
Sirs, you might try contributing to the debate in a meaningful way as opposed to negatively attacking people who are trying to make positive contributions. I seriously doubt your last two posts are what Bt had in mind when he asked for the level of debate to be raised.

Actually, in a way his comments were meaningful. He was pointing out how I have asked for quotes from the act to support various claims, and have yet to see ONE SINGLE QUOTE from the NCLB act in hundreds of responses.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 27, 2008, 02:56:08 PM
BIngo!
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: _JS on March 27, 2008, 03:11:59 PM
Js, if you'd bother going back in the thread, you wouldn't look so weak in this attempt to minimize my criticism.  FYI, I have contributed substantial commentary and suggestions, all rebuffed because "I'm not a teacher, I can't possibly know what I'm talking about"

*sigh*

Obviously you can post what you like. I'm not trying to attack you or your character Sirs. You're probably as fine a person as anyone who posts here.

My point is that such posts do nothing to help.

And in fairness, are you a parent? Maybe one doesn't have to be a teacher, but I do think it is difficult to understand the education of a child until one is a parent. (In fairness I never understood that until I had children and one of mine started school.)
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 27, 2008, 03:31:15 PM
Js, if you'd bother going back in the thread, you wouldn't look so weak in this attempt to minimize my criticism.  FYI, I have contributed substantial commentary and suggestions, all rebuffed because "I'm not a teacher, I can't possibly know what I'm talking about"

*sigh*

Obviously you can post what you like. I'm not trying to attack you or your character Sirs. You're probably as fine a person as anyone who posts here.  My point is that such posts do nothing to help.  

Actually they do.  They reinforce a particulary important point that was made


And in fairness, are you a parent?

Ahhh......so, in fairness, are you in the military?  Are we going down that tract again, where unless you're in X or do X, you can not critize X??    ::)

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: _JS on March 27, 2008, 04:45:52 PM
Did I say you could not criticize, or even have an important voice?

I said, "it is difficult to understand the education of a child until one is a parent."

I'm not attacking you in every post Sirs. Take it easy.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 27, 2008, 05:24:19 PM
Did I say you could not criticize, or even have an important voice?  I said, "it is difficult to understand the education of a child until one is a parent."

Well, with all due respect, understanding the education of a child, also requires understanding the current trend of education efforts, incl what's working and what's not. 

No one is argueing that parenting and educating a child is child's play.  But to bring up query's like "Have you been a teacher?", or "Do you have children?", is an apparent overt effort to not only deflect some of the criticisms being raised, but to even try to shield one from such criticism.  And for some then falling back to the standard DNC talking points of how all we need are "smaller class sizes" & "more $$$".

Ami, Prince, & Bt have done an outstanding job of demonstrating how the criticisms of NCLB are largely rhetorical, that no one criticising it can bring up any specific provisions within it to say "see, right there", and instead pull up op-ed after op-ed, many from the NEA or other Democratic driven organization, full of how terrible NCLB is, and how instead we just need to "invest" more in the Public Education system


I'm not attacking you in every post Sirs. Take it easy.

Never implied you were.  You were just trying to shield you and Miss Cynthia from some substantive criticism.  She's already tried that tact.  So, no need to get defensive
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: _JS on March 27, 2008, 06:37:19 PM
Did I say you could not criticize, or even have an important voice?  I said, "it is difficult to understand the education of a child until one is a parent."

Well, with all due respect, understanding the education of a child, also requires understanding the current trend of education efforts, incl what's working and what's not. 

No one is argueing that parenting and educating a child is child's play.  But to bring up query's like "Have you been a teacher?", or "Do you have children?", is an apparent overt effort to not only deflect some of the criticisms being raised, but to even try to shield one from such criticism.  And for some then falling back to the standard DNC talking points of how all we need are "smaller class sizes" & "more $$$".

Ami, Prince, & Bt have done an outstanding job of demonstrating how the criticisms of NCLB are largely rhetorical, that no one criticising it can bring up any specific provisions within it to say "see, right there", and instead pull up op-ed after op-ed, many from the NEA or other Democratic driven organization, full of how terrible NCLB is, and how instead we just need to "invest" more in the Public Education system.

I've heard some very substantive discussions from Governor Richardson, then Governor Dean, and others on the NCLB. I would certainly suggest looking at what the different governors who have had to implement the law have had to say.

Moreover, the actual wording of the Act and the effects of a law are not always identical. Unforeseen consequences often happen with legislation, especially new legislation that makes significant changes which is why I asked about OFSTED and independent performance measures to which I've only received a brief reply from Ami about one small segment of my post, to which I'm more than happy to say I was mistaken.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 27, 2008, 06:46:17 PM
So, in the mean time, until we actually have specific provisions in NCLB pointed to, in order to validate some of the criticisms that have been largely refuted, such as no science to be taught, funds to be cut (when the bill mandates increased funding), 1 size fits all (when there are 3tiers that have been referenced), and most notably, how it's up to the states themselves to set their own reasonable standards of how to achieve their results, all we have is the status quo of op-eds, largely by teachers' unions and Democrats (who not so surprisingly get scores of $$ contributions from the teachers' unions), minus of course the prequisate specifics, but loaded to the brim with accusatory claims
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 27, 2008, 08:24:54 PM
This is not going to make any sense to you all, but

PLAY IS A CHILD'S WORK.

It's too bad that the focus is less on what the child needs and more on what a society needs....i.e. a president NEEDS.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 27, 2008, 08:38:58 PM
Tried and true methods for teaching have been on the "books' for decades and decades....Piaget, and so many others....Professional men and women who have taken the time to devote THEIR LIVES to educating children.

Then, in one swoop. An idiot president comes along and decides that teachers know nothing!

I'll tell you another thing about all of this;

Perhaps we live in a new world ...a world when we must adjust to the televison, video games, face the music with "A book is the new dinosaur" mentality.
Perhaps this world of the child is at a critical mass we just have to do what the BOSS demands.

Be damned the intense research and massive professionalism that has gone into the soup of education..
BY DAMN, WE ARE THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA...
WE MUST BE THE BEST.

WE MUST OFFER VOUCHERS.

WE MUST KICK ASS and leave so many kids behind.


Ok, I'll calm down...but this is an outrage.....Bush is an IDIOT.

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 27, 2008, 08:53:22 PM
Then, in one swoop. An idiot president comes along and decides that teachers know nothing!

Funny, the NCLB act requires states to formulate the requirements by getting input from teachers.

What part of that means "teachers know nothing"?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Lanya on March 27, 2008, 09:04:35 PM
I agree with Cynthia on quite a bit (not a McCain supporter, but that's about it).

I almost feel as if someone mandated that every classroom have a shiny new yardstick, and every pupil had to grow a certain amount every week.

The yardstick is the NCLB.  The children are not going to measure exactly what you want them to measure; their growth and development vary and it's just not going to happen, mandate or no.

And if the President and Congress are so very concerned with children meeting educational standards, then why are private and home schools exempt?
Do they not also teach children?
Are some children more equal than others?
Is it presumed that private and home schools are "good" and public schools are "bad"?

Before I forget:

New Braunfels teacher alleges death threat over scores
   CBS 42 Reporter: Alexis Patterson

Last Update: 3/26 11:01 pm

   New Braunfels Teacher Alleges Threat
New Braunfels teacher Anita White made the allegation that a principal issued a death threat over test scores.
New Braunfels teacher Anita White made the allegation that a principal issued a death threat over test scores.
Related Links


A Central Texas teacher claims she got a death threat over test scores. Her principal adamantly denies the claim.

A woman who used to work at New Braunfels Middle School told CBS 42's Alexis Patterson that the principal threatened to kill teachers if test scores didn't improve -- a claim now under investigation by police.

Anita White used to teach science at the middle school.

She claims during a meeting in January, the principal said -- if test scores didn't meet his standards -- he would kill teachers, then himself.

"We were just sitting there in shock," White says. "And then, the next statement was, 'you just don't know how ruthless I can be.'"

The district issued a firm statement: "While police investigate a complaint, New Braunfels Middle School officials deny a teacher's claim that she was threatened to enhance test scores."

White says another teacher approached a board member, but nothing happened until mid-March. White said at that time, the New Braunfels Middle School principal was again unhappy with scores and reassigned her to the alternative campus after 18 years at the middle school.

"I couldn't understand," she said. "If I had the highest test scores, and you're wanting high test scores -- what's up with that? His last statement to me was 'I told you I was ruthless,' and that just brought back the threat of killing us."

White began writing her statement, and her husband filed a police report a few days ago.

"I'm in a better place now that I'm not there," she said. "And I guess that's why I felt comfortable coming out with this and taking the next step after going to a board member twice."

The district characterizes her claim: "The complaint comes on the heels of a New Braunfels Middle School science teacher being reassigned to the district's alternative school campus. Principal John Burks says all personnel decisions are made with the best interests of students in mind."
Copyright 2008, Four Points Media Group LLC. All Rights Reserved.
http://www.keyetv.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=a61e90a0-9465-43ee-9c20-ca0a2451fca3&rss=909

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 27, 2008, 09:34:03 PM
I almost feel as if someone mandated that every classroom have a shiny new yardstick, and every pupil had to grow a certain amount every week.

The yardstick is the NCLB.  The children are not going to measure exactly what you want them to measure; their growth and development vary and it's just not going to happen, mandate or no.

Except that the NCLB says that states and local school districts are to determine what the growth rate is, so it's a yardstick that can get longer or shorter as needed.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 28, 2008, 10:26:38 AM
And if the President and Congress are so very concerned with children meeting educational standards, then why are private and home schools exempt?
Do they not also teach children?
Are some children more equal than others?
Is it presumed that private and home schools are "good" and public schools are "bad"?

Let's correct that little problem right now!

You call your Congress Critters and I'll call mine.

I'd love it if private and home schools got some of that money!

Oh wait, I bet you just want them to meet the standards, but not get any of the money that's given to the schools to help them meet the standards, right?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 28, 2008, 11:24:16 AM
D'OH
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Universe Prince on March 28, 2008, 01:24:54 PM

And if the President and Congress are so very concerned with children meeting educational standards, then why are private and home schools exempt?
Do they not also teach children?
Are some children more equal than others?
Is it presumed that private and home schools are "good" and public schools are "bad"?


What silly questions. Tell me, Lanya, do home schools get funding from the federal government? Are private schools in your state run by your state's department of education?

Are some children more equal than others? Don't ask us. Ask the people who fight against school competition, condemning many children to poor schools.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Lanya on March 28, 2008, 01:46:18 PM
Schools are accredited by the state, aren't they? Even if they get no federal funding. At least that's what I've always understood.
"Fighting against school choice" ?  I wasn't doing that. 
If public school students have to meet these criteria (the standardized testing) then so should all schools. Otherwise there would be a lot of underperforming schools, and we can't have that. Children's education is too important.
Isn't it?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 28, 2008, 01:48:02 PM
Schools are accredited by the state, aren't they? Even if they get no federal funding. At least that's what I've always understood.

It's not required.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Universe Prince on March 28, 2008, 01:59:36 PM

Schools are accredited by the state, aren't they?


Not generally private schools, so far as I know.


"Fighting against school choice" ?  I wasn't doing that.


I didn't say you were.


If public school students have to meet these criteria (the standardized testing) then so should all schools. Otherwise there would be a lot of underperforming schools, and we can't have that. Children's education is too important.
Isn't it?


What you're missing here is that private schools, usually while spending far less per student than public schools, generally do a much better job of education than public schools.

"Children's education is too important." This is why I support school competition. How about you?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 28, 2008, 02:35:59 PM
Competition is fine. The playing field is not conducive to a fair game.

The Public Schools are rushing like mad chilis to make sure all children can read at the same level by a particular date. There's nothing wrong with that.

Sure, Ok, why not set a program in gear that gives kids MORE. I see nothing wrong with helping a child learn to read, compute and more. (although,we were doing just fine in that dept pre NCLB btw) But, I'll continue with the description of the playing field.

While they (we) are rushing to make that grade lest we suffer sanctions, we have also had to adopt new  reading and math programs. Again, nothing wrong with that. But, we are teaching only reading and math for the most part.....
the kids in the Public school system are actually getting "less" than they were previously.

Now, on the other side of that playing field you see private schools,home schools, charter schools with no restrictions, no rushing to make sure kids read all at the same time, at the same level, etc. Basically, they have a get out of jail free card. They don't even have to GO TO JAIL.

Ok, so how is this a fair competitive field? HOw?

One school teaches less...the other school teachers much more.

I am saying that we need to level the playing field, an make it so that the children who are being educated in the public sector, get more! Of course, parents are going to send their kids to "other" institutions. Who wouldn't.

Ami, I know you want to hear me say that the NCLB act does not line out in detail THE EXACT PUNITIVE ACTIONS.....the EXACT METHOD FOR IMPROVEMENT ETC...of course they have sent that pigeon messanger to the individual states. So what?

That isn't the issue. The issue is that in writing the act mandates that all children will read by the a particular year. All well and fine. But, it also stipulates that states must find a way to "punish"...sanctions, etc.. Who the hell cares if the act itself doesn't state those punitive actions...My god, man, it's OUT THERE...it's on the books.....the states must find a way or the states hit the highway....Did you read the post I sent the other day?
Rewards vs Sanctions...oh and the private schools aren't touched in the same way.

My point is;

Provide time for programs that are MANDATED to work. And according to their own research, these program do not magically work within one year's time. It takes at least 5 years (K-5).

But, the way the law is set up, the schools must meet AYP NOW. THe sanctions, the probationary actions, the restrictive #1 and #2 ...they are slapped on us NOW. I say that is not right.

I also believe we should be able in that  time, find a way to provide kids the same amount of education (science, art, music) as offered by private schools.

This issue keeps coming up....COMPETITIVE for or against.

It seems that you don't hear the issue that I have been trying to argue here. But you and Sirs and others keep ranting your rage about this one element. I am NOT AGAINST competition. I aAM AGAINST an unfair playing field. I AM AGAINST what is happening in the school AND to our kids as a consequence.

Ok, I thought I would not come back to this issue, because you guys keep looping the same crap, and I have a nice two week vacation here. So, I will get back to it now.
I work in a year round school, and our "breaks" come throughout the year----we have a shorter summer.

Later,
Cynthia
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Universe Prince on March 28, 2008, 02:42:58 PM

Competition is fine. The playing field is not conducive to a fair game.


That depends on what one considers a fair game.


Now, on the other side of that playing field you see private schools,home schools, charter schools with no restrictions, no rushing to make sure kids read all at the same time, at the same level, etc. Basically, they have a get out of jail free card. They don't even have to GO TO JAIL.

Ok, so how is this a fair competitive field? HOw?


Exactly. We need less regulation and more competition. This is what I've been saying for some time now. I'm glad to see you're coming around.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 28, 2008, 04:28:11 PM
Provide time for programs that are MANDATED to work. And according to their own research, these program do not magically work within one year's time. It takes at least 5 years (K-5).

But, the way the law is set up, the schools must meet AYP NOW. THe sanctions, the probationary actions, the restrictive #1 and #2 ...they are slapped on us NOW. I say that is not right.

The act was signed into law in 2001. It mandates full compliance in 2014. By my math (and I know it's a bit old-fashioned) I figure that gives 13 years - a tad bit more than 5 years. Your results might vary, I haven't done the "new math" yet.

And AYP is a PROGRESS goal - that's what the "P" stands for. You have to achieve a certain amount of PROGRESS each year, not 100% compliance. In other words, if your progress goal for reading is 5% each year, and last year you had 40% reading at grade level (defined by the state, incidentally) this year you should have 45% reading at grade level. And nothing stops the state of New Mexico from deciding that their students are dumber than those in, say, New York and setting an appropriately lower reading goal.

And those sanctions you're worried about? If you miss your AYP, you get MORE MONEY, which should be targeted at meeting your AYP next year. Only schools that miss their AYP three consecutive years lose money, and then it's only in the administrative budget, because the state is required to take over administration.

Now, if I were an ADMINISTRATOR, I would be worried.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 29, 2008, 12:39:37 AM
UP,

If you were A CHILD in this system, YOU would be crushed....not worried. You are not a child in the system. You are a political message board member who THINKS he knows what is best.
Ok. i'll give you that for now.

If you were in the classroom, what would YOU DO? Do you know what it is like to be on the front lines of a classroom setting? Do you?
Take moment before you answer that if you will, please. Don't jump to a rush to assume anything.
Ok, you are a teacher in a classroom. You have been trained, with a Master's Degree in education. You have affected many lives in the past. You have studied all there is to study in terms of how a child learns.

You have applied all that you know....AND you have done so in a setting where there are 24 kids in one room, kids with issues, kids with problems that you couldn't even begin to imagine. Ok...step back....reflect. . . Don't rush yet.
You have learned all there is to learn about how a child learns....How to best teach a child...years of study...years of work....years of experience and worthwhile results.


You respond in a moments notice to a thread of posts on a message board on the DHS debategate...suddenly YOU KNOW best. Suddenly, SIRS knows best. hmmm, Ok....why?
Because you believe to be truth that the facts play out....not good enough in terms of test scores. A ha. . . THEREFORE all schools in the entire system of the USAmerican schools is a failure...and I am going to post that "I would be worried"?

This "argument"...This "discussion" is fine ON PAPER. This rhetoric is fine as political debates play themselves out.

I speak from experience and knowledge. I will never give that up.

I think it's time that we all listen to the history books not only in terms of what goes on in education, but what the world has experienced in terms of WAR,  ECONOMIC GROWTH, ECONOMIC FAILURES ETC ETC ...
etc.

ONE freaking size in this nation of ours....DOES NOT FIT ALL.
Now, I see. Now, I see the truth that is the failure in the thread of America.

This message board has brought forth a lot more than a simple debate, for me.

I am suddenly  aware that there is so much more to this nation than we SPELL OUT.

There is so much more to the dynamics and the depth of what happens in this world of ours.

To stand on ONE platform and to make JUDGEMENTS based on a single "platform" politically is dangerous, to say the least.

Individual lives are at stake here. A simple law, act, or position to make things better is


BULLSHIT.

I will always remember this discussion for the fact that we haven't learned anything...not really...unless we take time, understand the facts that are not published, and have patience to see that we are not rushing to action in order to be reactive, not proactive.


This administration has been simply reaction...not proaction.


Airlines, Airports, safety measures are a crock...if we don't all pull in and see to it that the details are well managed.
Terror is going to show its ugly head when we aren't looking...It has, and always will.

No different in the life of a child.

Support.
Support.
Stop resting on the bench that is political rhetoric that makes the individual win.
America----we have to win mentality?
Wrong. Too easy.


Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Lanya on March 29, 2008, 12:55:32 AM
What I'm getting from some posts here is that punitive measures should be exacted upon schools, school children, and school teachers and principals in part because the schools are funded by tax dollars.

Do I have this right, or did I take away the wrong impression?


Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on March 29, 2008, 01:57:15 AM
What you should be taking away from this discussion is the overwhelming sense that the failure to educate the youth of america will no longer be tolerated, mitigated or excused.


That a third grader should be able to read at third grade level at the end of the third grade school year.

Is that really too much to ask?

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Universe Prince on March 29, 2008, 03:22:51 AM

UP,

If you were A CHILD in this system, YOU would be crushed....not worried.


Possibly. That hardly makes anything I said incorrect.


You are not a child in the system. You are a political message board member who THINKS he knows what is best.
Ok. i'll give you that for now.


I'm a political message board member who sees serious problems in education in the U.S. Is that a problem? Am I not supposed to be concerned because I'm not a child or not a teacher? I'm an adult,, and I see a problem, and I see reasonable proposals of and efforts at solutions being fought against because they do not enhance the status quo operation of the system. So I should not speak up on this matter because I'm not you?


If you were in the classroom, what would YOU DO? Do you know what it is like to be on the front lines of a classroom setting? Do you?
Take moment before you answer that if you will, please. Don't jump to a rush to assume anything.
Ok, you are a teacher in a classroom. You have been trained, with a Master's Degree in education. You have affected many lives in the past. You have studied all there is to study in terms of how a child learns.

You have applied all that you know....AND you have done so in a setting where there are 24 kids in one room, kids with issues, kids with problems that you couldn't even begin to imagine. Ok...step back....reflect. . . Don't rush yet.
You have learned all there is to learn about how a child learns....How to best teach a child...years of study...years of work....years of experience and worthwhile results.


Well, here's part of the problem: the assumption that someone with a master's degree in education knows all there is know about how a child learns and/or all there is to know about teaching children.


You respond in a moments notice to a thread of posts on a message board on the DHS debategate...suddenly YOU KNOW best. Suddenly, SIRS knows best. hmmm, Ok....why?


I cannot speak for Sirs, but I don't believe I claimed to know best. I gave my opinion and supported it.


Because you believe to be truth that the facts play out....not good enough in terms of test scores. A ha. . . THEREFORE all schools in the entire system of the USAmerican schools is a failure...


I never said that.


and I am going to post that "I would be worried"?


Flattered as I am that you seem to have confused me with Amianthus, that was not my comment.


I speak from experience and knowledge. I will never give that up.


No one is asking you to do so.


I think it's time that we all listen to the history books not only in terms of what goes on in education, but what the world has experienced in terms of WAR,  ECONOMIC GROWTH, ECONOMIC FAILURES ETC ETC ...
etc.

ONE freaking size in this nation of ours....DOES NOT FIT ALL.


I am fairly certain I have already agreed with you that one size does not fit all. Hence my support for school competition and homeschooling, et cetera.


Now, I see. Now, I see the truth that is the failure in the thread of America.


I have no idea what you mean by that.


Individual lives are at stake here. A simple law, act, or position to make things better is


BULLSHIT.


Oh, come on, admit it. You're libertarian, aren't you?


I will always remember this discussion for the fact that we haven't learned anything...not really...


That is only true if you let it be.


Airlines, Airports, safety measures are a crock...if we don't all pull in and see to it that the details are well managed.
Terror is going to show its ugly head when we aren't looking...It has, and always will.

No different in the life of a child.

Support.
Support.
Stop resting on the bench that is political rhetoric that makes the individual win.
America----we have to win mentality?
Wrong. Too easy.


No idea what that means either.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Universe Prince on March 29, 2008, 03:24:47 AM
We got 400 posts. We got 400 posts. What? No, I'm not gloating. I'm just saying...
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Universe Prince on March 29, 2008, 03:34:38 AM

What I'm getting from some posts here is that punitive measures should be exacted upon schools, school children, and school teachers and principals in part because the schools are funded by tax dollars.

Do I have this right, or did I take away the wrong impression?


Punitive measures because they funded by tax dollars. Um, not quite. I believe the idea is to do something about the poor state of public education. If there punitive measures to be taken in that regard, they should be meted out to public schools and public school systems, rather than say, private schools or home schools. Since the government, at various levels, funds and essentially runs the public schools, then the government solutions (if such a thing could truly be said to exist) should apply to public schools. Is there something about that you find unreasonable? Perhaps you think problems that arise at, say, a government run day care facility should result in you being punished in how you rear your child at home? If there are problems that arise within, say, the police department, should the private security guards  at the bank also be punished?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 29, 2008, 03:57:48 AM
You respond in a moments notice to a thread of posts on a message board on the DHS debategate...suddenly YOU KNOW best. Suddenly, SIRS knows best. hmmm, Ok....why?

I cannot speak for Sirs, but I don't believe I claimed to know best. I gave my opinion and supported it.

Nor have I claimed I know best either.  Though I should point out, a certain someone who happens to be a teacher sure seems to lay the foundation that she knows best......and yet what she knows sounds dangersously similar to teachers' union talking points, minus any assemblence of ideas to address the egregiously worsening education of our children outside of more money & smaller class sizes...oh, and stop picking on the teachers, where apparently requiring accountability is tantamount to declaring war on the Public Education System    ::)

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 29, 2008, 08:30:11 AM
ONE freaking size in this nation of ours....DOES NOT FIT ALL.

Which is why EACH STATE comes up with it's own standards.

In addition, each state is supposed to come up with THREE standards for each grade level - advanced, proficient, and basic.

So, it seems to me that are 50 X 3 standards, or 150 standards.

But, of course, that's my "old math" talking. I'm sure someone will explain how 50 X 3 is actually "1".
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 29, 2008, 08:31:51 AM
What I'm getting from some posts here is that punitive measures should be exacted upon schools, school children, and school teachers and principals in part because the schools are funded by tax dollars.

Do I have this right, or did I take away the wrong impression?

What punitive measures?

Giving under-performing schools more money is a punitive measure?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 29, 2008, 08:36:17 AM
and I am going to post that "I would be worried"?

Funny, I thought you said that you were a teacher, not an administrator.

I said that ADMINISTRATORS should be worried, because it's their budget money and jobs on the line, not the teachers.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 29, 2008, 10:37:21 AM
OK, now I'll give you some objections to NCLB are based on actual fact, not protectionism of the NEA.

It DOES NOT apply a "one size fits all" standard, which is it's actual flaw. And it punishes ADMINISTRATORS ONLY for not achieving the state mandated standards.

Quote
Let?s look at one example of how the public is being misled. In 2003, Texas reported that 85 percent of its 4th grade students had achieved proficiency in reading as measured by its state assessment. If I lived in Texas, I?d be feeling pretty good about an 85 percent proficiency rate. In fact, it was third highest in the nation.

Wyoming, however, reported that only 44 percent of its 4th grade students had achieved proficiency as reflected by their state assessment. If I had children in school in Wyoming, I?d be upset. Most of the general public, and parents in particular, see that Texas has almost twice as many 4th grade students reading proficiently. By far, Texas is more successful. The question must be asked, ?What is wrong with our schools in Wyoming?? ?What is Texas doing that we should all be doing??

Now, add another bit of data, the National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) reading proficiency results, and the entire fa?ade of accountability comes crashing down. Texas, reporting 85 percent of its elementary students proficient in reading, shows only 28 percent of its students proficient as measured by the NAEPs. Wyoming, which administered the same NAEP exam to its students, reports more than 35 percent achieving proficient in reading. When both states use the same exam to measure reading proficiency Wyoming outperforms Texas.

And...

Quote
The gaps between state assessments and NAEP assessments calls into question the entire process of cerifying which states, districts, and schools are meeting NCLB standards and who are not. How can states be held accountable if there is no standard method of measuring? I could be on an NCLB list of under-performing schools in Wyoming that are actually outperforming schools that are considered meeting NCLB standards in Texas. NCLB has turned into a competition to provide positive and impressive data; data that hides the reality of the state of learning in our schools.

If the scandal of overblown and misleading reading proficiency data isn?t enough; there is even a larger scandal, for, whether measured by state standards or NAEPs, the state of reading proficiency in this country is mind boggling.

?First, in several (seven) states fewer than half the students meet the state proficiency standards, and in no state do even half the students meet the NAEP national literacy standard of proficiency.? Achieving State and National Reading Goals a Long Uphill Road - Rand

Let me repeat, IN SEVEN STATES FEWER THAN HALF THE STUDENTS MEET STATE PROFICIENCY STANDARDS?

and, if we use the NAEPs as our measure, THERE IS NO STATE IN AMERICA WHERE EVEN HALF THE STUDENTS MEET THE PROFICIENCY STANDARD.

More at Misleading Data Hides NCLB Scandal (http://www.districtadministration.com/pulse/commentpost.aspx?news=no&postid=18519).
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 29, 2008, 11:11:36 AM
ONE freaking size in this nation of ours....DOES NOT FIT ALL.

Which is why EACH STATE comes up with it's own standards.

In addition, each state is supposed to come up with THREE standards for each grade level - advanced, proficient, and basic.

So, it seems to me that are 50 X 3 standards, or 150 standards.

But, of course, that's my "old math" talking. I'm sure someone will explain how 50 X 3 is actually "1".

OUCH
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on March 29, 2008, 12:35:26 PM
Well, this is true. ha. Math counts for something.

Anyway, standards are important...and we are supposed to teach all standards, Ami.

Those standards do indeed include every subject.

So, tell that to our principal. Seems she and others in the district have forgotten that one little thing...but of course everyone is under the gun. Jobs are on the line. Yes, jobs. Principals can be fired and invited to reapply, as are teachers......that's here in our little village... and possibly in many little villages in the country...can't say for sure yep...or nope ..for mathematical certain)

 :-X
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 29, 2008, 12:56:38 PM
So, tell that to our principal. Seems she and others in the district have forgotten that one little thing...but of course everyone is under the gun. Jobs are on the line. Yes, jobs. Principals can be fired and invited to reapply, as are teachers......that's here in our little village... and possibly in many little villages in the country...can't say for sure yep...or nope ..for mathematical certain)

Of course, ADMINISTRATION jobs are on the line.

But the NCLB does not punish teachers that fail.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on March 29, 2008, 02:21:55 PM
We got 400 posts. We got 400 posts. What? No, I'm not gloating. I'm just saying...

Way to go Prince....your topic beat my prior leading one.  Good subject, good debate    8)
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Lanya on March 29, 2008, 02:45:09 PM
What seems to be forgotten here is that even if administrators are the ones who are threatened with job loss, crap rolls downhill.
In other words, a principal in a school that's under the gun can make life hell on teachers. 
My son had a great teacher who was affected by this. She was told to change answers (she didn't)  and she didn't kowtow enough so her contract wasn't extended. 
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 29, 2008, 02:47:07 PM
What seems to be forgotten here is that even if administrators are the ones who are threatened with job loss, crap rolls downhill.
In other words, a principal in a school that's under the gun can make life hell on teachers.

That's why the state takes over administration.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Lanya on March 29, 2008, 04:12:18 PM
<<That's why the state takes over administration.>>

But before that happens, a lot of people are made miserable: teachers and little kids.  And if a principal is ruthless enough, she/he doesn't lose the school.
She/he changes answers and doesn't extend contracts to teachers who want to teach and not cheat.   
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on March 29, 2008, 04:24:54 PM
But before that happens, a lot of people are made miserable: teachers and little kids.  And if a principal is ruthless enough, she/he doesn't lose the school.
She/he changes answers and doesn't extend contracts to teachers who want to teach and not cheat.   

So, you're saying that the outcry about the NCLB is actually about saving jobs and the status quo?

Finally, some common sense.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Lanya on March 29, 2008, 10:53:34 PM
Lanya:But before that happens, a lot of people are made miserable: teachers and little kids.  And if a principal is ruthless enough, she/he doesn't lose the school.
She/he changes answers and doesn't extend contracts to teachers who want to teach and not cheat.   

Ami:So, you're saying that the outcry about the NCLB is actually about saving jobs and the status quo?

Finally, some common sense.
_______________________
No, that's not what I'm saying.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on April 01, 2008, 12:35:22 PM
http://www.news4jax.com/news/15755299/detail.html

Yikes!  :o
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Lanya on April 01, 2008, 01:14:57 PM
Wow. Third-graders??
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on April 01, 2008, 01:50:40 PM
(http://www.iri.org/newsarchive/images/news-WashingtonTimes.png)

High school graduation called 'coin toss'
By Amy Fagan
April 1, 2008

A teenager living in one of the nation's 50 largest cities has about a 50 percent chance of graduating high school, a new report finds.

"Our analysis finds that graduating from high school in America's largest cities amounts, essentially, to a coin toss," stated the report, which is being highlighted today by America's Promise Alliance (APA), a national collaborative supporting the well-being of children and youths.

Education Secretary Margaret Spellings also is expected to make an announcement today about high school graduation rates.

Only about 52 percent of students in the main school systems of the nation's largest cities complete high school, according to today's report, which was prepared by Editorial Projects in Education Research Center with help from APA and the Gates Foundation.

The same groups conducted a report last summer that found the national graduation rate was about 70 percent ? lower than previously thought.

High school graduation rates have been a hot topic in recent years, and with the education community has sparred over how to measure them. A few years ago, the nation's governors agreed on a common definition for their high school graduation rate, but implementation has been slow, said Marguerite Kondracke, APA's president and CEO.

"This is a national crisis," said Mrs. Kondracke, adding that the United States is at risk of losing its place as a world leader. The solution, she said, must involve everyone, from parents to businesses to schools, and must include added support for at-risk students, including mentors and after-school programs.

Findings for the principal school districts in the 50 cities ranged from a 77 percent graduation rate in Mesa, Ariz., to about a 25 percent graduation rate in Detroit, which was among four cities ? Baltimore, Cleveland and Indianapolis were the others ? that had average graduation rates under 40 percent. The District ranked roughly in the middle of the list, at 58 percent. The average graduation for all 50 areas was 51.8 percent.

To give a fuller picture, the report also examined urban-versus-suburban districts in each of the metropolitan areas. It found the suburban graduation rates were on average 17 percent higher than urban rates. The metropolitan areas with the sharpest urban-suburban gap were in the Northeast or Midwest, the report found. Baltimore and Columbus were the worst, according to the report.

Today's report used information from the Department of Education and calculated graduation rates for spring 2004 using a method that essentially tracked that class from the ninth grade on. The analysis focused on the largest or most central school district serving each city ? termed "principal school districts" ? but also examined surrounding metropolitan areas.

http://washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080401/NATION/190153679/1001 (http://washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080401/NATION/190153679/1001)
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on April 02, 2008, 12:27:00 AM
Wow. Third-graders??

Go figure, Lany :(
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on April 04, 2008, 08:49:41 PM
http://www.koat.com/video_legacy/15200144/index.html

http://www.koat.com/video_legacy/15258522/index.html

These students have embraced Science with all their passion.

It's a shame that the NCLB is encouraging that schools back down from teaching science.

Public School science students rock.

I have to give kudos to the Koat News for such a segment each Friday.

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: BT on April 04, 2008, 09:17:26 PM
Quote
It's a shame that the NCLB is encouraging that schools back down from teaching science.

How do you know this to be true, Cynthia?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on April 04, 2008, 09:30:12 PM
Given the clarity that you, Ami, and Prince have provided Bt, regarding what NCLB does mandate, and how the States are allowed to do whatever it is they deem they need to do, I was wondering the same thing
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on April 05, 2008, 12:58:56 AM
Given the clarity that you, Ami, and Prince have provided Bt, regarding what NCLB does mandate, and how the States are allowed to do whatever it is they deem they need to do, I was wondering the same thing

Ok, guys, let me start over.

I sort of planted that statement in order to prove a point.

My point is a question.

Is the NCLB act truly at the heart of what has changed in this nation in terms of education, or is it truly the State's call?

If you look at the NCLB ACT, do you read anything that offers suggestions of how to teach a given subject(s)in order that all children make progress in all areas of academia?

Do you read anywhere in the act where teachers are encouraged to teach a child according to their expertise and training in how a child learns?
No, you see none of that.

As the State's responsibility, eventually you will read that there are mandates to use scripted, hot off the presses programs published by huge companies such as Houghton Mifflin and Harcourt Brace on the forefront that has come to be known as research based programs. These are our new college courses. . .our newest form of training.

Do you read anywhere in the act where the focus is on a well rounded education for all? No. Nor do you read anything about curriculum, per say. You read....rulings. expectations. What else is new? There have been expectations since the dawn of time in education.


You read that States must see to it that we see to it that kids can READ..and that's about it..oh and construct math. Nothing wrong with either.

Now, while I do not disagree with Ami's assessment of the NCLB act in scope, and detailing...I do wonder if anyone knows what it is like to have to teach a child to read NOW or yesterday. No in between.


I am here to ask you all .....have you been in a classroom setting in a public school in the last ten years?
The last five years?
The last one year?

I have seen so much in my years of teaching.

And only recently, have I seen that bi-lingual education has been taken AWAY from our own district in order to make sure we are not put on probation for not teaching every child to read!! period.

I have seen that science, social studies and art, music are no longer a part of OUR curriculum. I have read about many districts across the country that are in fear of losing critical subject areas of the curriculum.


I have a fear. I have a concern.

IS it the NCLB act?
Probably not, in the end.

But, who's at fault for this?

If you think it is it the individual State's problem, then WHY?

When did the individual states decide to stop teaching such areas of curriculum just to satisfy the NCLB act?



Ironically, since those restrictions have been put into place, there are fewer quality areas of curriculum being taught in the public schools, sad to say.
So, I really don't care if the debate ends up with the NCLB act being the good guy in all of this. I agree that we must never let a child be lost behind...left without care....kept from his/her right to learn IT ALL.

But, something is wrong. IF it is the State's problem, then that's a shame. I don't care. I'll fight for the child.

But, who is the parent in all of this mandate?

Is it the NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND act?

Ami is a very, very intelligent man, btw. I will listen to him any day of the week. I trust him that much.

I want to know more. I want to know why?

Why can't we fix this problem?

AS I go back to work on Monday, and I am so excited to do so.....I will be on the front lines of a battle that is education. I will touch lives, educate to the best of my ability, and I will wonder what will be taken away from my students next?
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on April 05, 2008, 02:03:42 PM
This is what I have been trying to say all along.


"Too much focus on a narrow curriculum
NCLB's focus on just math and reading scores could have a profoundly undemocratic effect upon a generation of students in poorly performing schools, as schools may strip away much of the broad education that is their birthright in order to elevate scores on just two indicators.
Students in affluent schools with good scores may continue to enjoy a full range of subjects including art, social studies and science, while disadvantaged students are condemned to a second class education putting "Reading First" at the expense of a complete education. This preoccupation with LITERACY over all else sets up an increasingly two class society, with one group condemned to a lean diet of basic skills and the other getting the more complete diet associated with power and success in this society.
The goal of elevating the performance of all students is laudable, but the change in performance must be across the board on all subject areas.
In this respect, NCLB poses a major threat to states that have elected to test student performance in all areas, as those states will get no credit under NCLB for improvements made in other subject areas and they will soon feel the pressure to narrow their focus."


http://nochildleft.com/2003/jancov03.html
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Universe Prince on April 05, 2008, 02:55:55 PM
Here's an interesting one for you, Cynthia, http://www.nctaf.org/ (http://www.nctaf.org/). The site was recommended to me by someone I know who works in the department of education here in South Carolina. And that site tries (though they don't give a direct link) to point to this, http://www.teachnm.org/overview.html (http://www.teachnm.org/overview.html), about a 3-Tiered Licensure System that has apparently been adopted in New Mexico.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on April 05, 2008, 10:15:56 PM
Here's an interesting one for you, Cynthia, http://www.nctaf.org/ (http://www.nctaf.org/). The site was recommended to me by someone I know who works in the department of education here in South Carolina. And that site tries (though they don't give a direct link) to point to this, http://www.teachnm.org/overview.html (http://www.teachnm.org/overview.html), about a 3-Tiered Licensure System that has apparently been adopted in New Mexico.

UP, Thank you so much for your kind and sincere attention to this subject and my quest. I do appreciate it so very much. I was wrong to bring up this topic in 3DHS board. I know that there is more to this story that is education in the public school system. Especially in my direct world.
Ironically,  BT made the best point of all and I have to give him credit for that......My situation is clearly a difficult one..Sirs, on the other hand, is like an ambulance following lawyer who will do anything to make a POINT TO WIN.

Sad. He used to have more "give and take" when it comes to points

 in an argument. Now, he seems to want to win..and he'll piss everyone off doing so.

 I maintain that I have valid and accurate points in my stance of this act.

This board is too willing to play a battle game, and that's the very reason why I like the place. ha.

It's a fun game room.

Ok, well, I have no more time to share here.

Universe Prince...you are gracious and kind and I will always admire you.

Thank you for giving this teacher your time on this board that is bad ass when it comes to "outsiders" like me.

I welcome any type of discussion and , once again, I am not afraid to speak up.....

I will read this link in more depth. I read part of it this evening.

I am a three tiered teacher. I have taught for 32 years. Those young teachers, who have to skip through hoops and jump over fields in order to 'MAKE A PROVEN' statement of their qualification...well, I feel for them....

Hear me now....this is not the nation for educating young minds in the poorest neighborhoods. IT IS however, a fabulous place to educate the wealthy and those who can afford to change schools, etc.

Most families want to educate their little children....and that's where I will alway come in....

I have shown my emotional side on here, and have also quickly deleleted such posts.... because I do not feel that they were valid in a place where too many "guests" read for the point of  tabloid gossip. ha.

But, I will take my passion for education to another arena....the classroom and the official board room.

I might even take it to the State legislature.

Richardson wasn't that bad for teachers, btw. He just has a big bad ego..and a temper to boot....
Yuk
 :P
..but he will soon leave us in NM and find himself in the winning ticket's backyard.

Naturally.

He is a seasoned politician. He is no dummy...ha.


Ok,
Thank you UP. Thank you so much.

I'll keep in touch here on the board. I look forward to seeing my students on Monday.

This has been challenging but good in a way...I have met new pals and I have found my sense of self in the harsh world of opinionated folks.


Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Universe Prince on April 06, 2008, 12:30:30 AM

he seems to want to win


Thank you much for the kind words, Cynthia. I would like to point out though, everyone here wants to win, and I feel safe in saying that includes you. You tenacity on this subject, I believe, indicates that quite clearly. That is not a bad thing. It just happens to be the nature of this forum. It's partly why bother to keep coming back. Iron sharpens iron, as the saying goes.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Universe Prince on April 06, 2008, 01:23:24 PM

I have already told some people that you are a saint...a "prince of a saint".


I appreciate the complement, but a saint I ain't.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on April 06, 2008, 01:30:18 PM

I have already told some people that you are a saint...a "prince of a saint".


I appreciate the complement, but a saint I ain't.

I have decided to keep my posts shorter and sweeter...So, pardon my deletes. I am going to focus more on facts and less on being sensitive...xxxx'ing fingers.

Yes, UP You're a saint. A grand poster, indeed. And I have to say so are most folks on here....even Sirs...aw shucks.
ok end of a wonderful thread.....but, I will address the 18% issue on the post about drop out rates as soon as I hear back from the woman in the RDA dept. I emailed her Friday. She has already had some interesting things to say. I'll get back, then.

I'll leave it at that.

What a thread this has been...a ride to beat the Disney Dude.

Gracias....all
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: jimellisboyd on April 07, 2008, 12:26:45 PM
"Parents do not have a constitutional right to home school their children,"

This is the typical crap that comes out of CA. Here in NM, of course you can educate your own children... THEY ARE YOUR CHILDREN.... NOT THE GOVERNMENTS. Having been a former teacher myself, I have meet many well educated people that were home schooled.

It is the constant crazy stuff like this that goes on in CA is the reason I would never live there.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on April 08, 2008, 04:05:10 PM
The 18.4% figure comes from the Cohort Status Report: Graduation and Dropout Status for Students in the Classes of 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004.   The figure represents the percent of Dropouts for the cohort class of 2004 districtwide.  This report has not been done for subsequent years. RDA consultant APS


This is the email I received today from the woman in RDA dept. She had not even heard of the 18% until I brought the KOAT TV news article to her attention!!!.go figure....Sad to say that even our administrators DON'T back up their stories...

so, why they do this? Possibly to ease the public and or the system??

It has been quite an experience to research this, Ami.  I have to say that the devil is indeed in details.

Thanks, Ami for your time on this topic,

Cynthia

attached is the report that seems to be at the botton line in terms of the 18%.

Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Amianthus on April 09, 2008, 09:53:57 AM
attached is the report that seems to be at the botton line in terms of the 18%.

Interesting. They've done everything they could to reduce the number of "drop-outs" on this report. For instance, if someone moves and stops going to high school, they're not counted as a "drop out" - they just "transfered out of the system".

Regardless, the percent of graduations on this report jives closely (within a few percentage points) of the other report. The 18.4% number is only the group of students who do not continue school and continue to live in the same school district as when they were going to school. There are other categories for students who stop attending school for other reasons as well.
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: kimba1 on April 09, 2008, 01:44:58 PM
It is the constant crazy stuff like this that goes on in CA is the reason I would never live there.

it`s not California
it`s segments of it
California is actually quite conservative
not the past 2 terms bush had a very large percent of the votes
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on April 09, 2008, 03:08:14 PM
And a reason my wife and I, who would have NEVER considered moving out of state, now have to think seriously of moving out of state
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on April 09, 2008, 07:04:25 PM
And a reason my wife and I, who would have NEVER considered moving out of state, now have to think seriously of moving out of state

Hey, sirs, a sidebar question. Did you and your wife have kids, since I was on board? I remember you were just getting married a few years ago. Just curious.
Are you guys planning to home school?
Cindy
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: sirs on April 09, 2008, 07:11:08 PM
Alas, we're too old, and with not enough finances to adopt.  We do have 3 (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/97/IndyStands.jpg/250px-IndyStands.jpg) "kidz".  And they are homeschooled
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on April 09, 2008, 07:50:44 PM
Alas, we're too old, and with not enough finances to adopt.  We do have 3 (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/97/IndyStands.jpg/250px-IndyStands.jpg) "kidz".  And they are homeschooled

Precious!!
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on April 10, 2008, 12:51:37 AM
attached is the report that seems to be at the botton line in terms of the 18%.

Interesting. They've done everything they could to reduce the number of "drop-outs" on this report. For instance, if someone moves and stops going to high school, they're not counted as a "drop out" - they just "transfered out of the system".

Regardless, the percent of graduations on this report jives closely (within a few percentage points) of the other report. The 18.4% number is only the group of students who do not continue school and continue to live in the same school district as when they were going to school. There are other categories for students who stop attending school for other reasons as well.



In this search, I found that numbers can't alway speak for themselves.

Human lives can speak for themselves.


The NCLB act is going to improve the drop out rate.

I am convinced of that now.

The NCLB act is a good thing and can only improve our lives ten fold.

I am convinced of that now.

Time will tell. .

Time will tell......

A jump to skip over numbers in order to "look good"...is bullshit.

I have learned that throughout this debate.

The intentions and goals for anything in education will have to be assessed

THROUGH TIME.

So, we shall see.



btw, thanks ami for you assessment ....I appreciate your skills, dear man.

Cynthia
Title: Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
Post by: Cynthia on April 11, 2008, 11:03:26 PM
After being back to work for five days, I have already noticed a change in the tide. We had an all day meeting to decide how we are going to resuscitate social studies and science in our school day. For that I am grateful.

The NCLB act might be the backbone for the intent to improve the public schools, but we are in the process of digging ourselves out of a quicksand pit slowly gaining ground that was already beneath our feet. It was under control, no problemo, without sin, operating with full nuts and bolts, ....... until the "State" chose to misunderstand what the NCLB act was actually dictating...I mean, suggesting....I mean .....serving up as provisions like a fine dinner. . . . 


So, as the teachers in our school saloon sat around the campfire today.....focused on how to bring teaching back into our world and a well rounded education into the world of our students, we held strong as teachers. We insisted that we be allowed to give back to our children what they have lost.....no bashing the NCLB- not once! And mind you that was on everyone's mind.

A step in the right direction. I celebrate my first week back from spring break, after a long hard winter....spring is in the air for the kids and we are about to take back our right to teach.

Then, I will shut my mouth about the NCLB act...as I am here to admit that we must call a spade a spade....this is true. The next step----a State takeover.

Hear us roar.....starting at the grassroots. . . what a world I work in today.  :)