DebateGate

Seems the only thing both sides in this forum (excluding Henny) have agreed upon is that aid to the Middle east should stop. It would be interesting to see what road that leads to when when it does stop.

Henny agrees to that, as long as it includes Israel.

But fat chance - G8 pledged to give 20 Billion just to Egypt and Tunisia. A heft chunk of that will be US tax dollars.

Quote from: Henny on May 28, 2011, 02:59:00 AM

Quote from: sirs on May 27, 2011, 02:08:17 PM

Quote from: Xavier_Onassis on May 27, 2011, 01:45:21 PM

They were doubtless killed in a variety of ways. You want a source, look it up for yourself.

You want credibility to your claim, you provide it yourself

I'll jump in here. I don't know about the statistic XO gave - I think it came from an opinion commentary I posted by an Israeli - but here is some info. I don't know if it's 11 to 1, but it sure is a whole heck of a lot to 1:

http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/casualties.asp

The claim, if I recall was Israeli KILLING Palestinians, as in targeted, as in UNPROVOKED, at the supposed rate of 11:1.  Not merely folks who have died, in particular, when in response to an act of war upon them.  I have no problem when a defending force kills more of those who tried to kill them, but failed at it.  Bt even produced the very accurate quote on war, the plan to kill more of them, then they of you.  And this is a war

But I applaud your effort to actually back up the claim, while Xo just waffled in the wind

But unfortunately, he was right that you wouldn't accept any statistic.   

Like I said when i first walked away from this thread - Arabs aren't human. Kill them all, no one cares. 

Quote from: Xavier_Onassis on May 27, 2011, 01:45:21 PM

They were doubtless killed in a variety of ways. You want a source, look it up for yourself.

You want credibility to your claim, you provide it yourself

I'll jump in here. I don't know about the statistic XO gave - I think it came from an opinion commentary I posted by an Israeli - but here is some info. I don't know if it's 11 to 1, but it sure is a whole heck of a lot to 1:

http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/casualties.asp

Quote from: Henny on May 26, 2011, 04:13:15 AM

Quote from: sirs on May 26, 2011, 03:48:31 AM

It's ok Miss Henny....I've been shown the light....there will be no peace, I'm afraid.       However I'll keep you and your family in my prayers for protection, always

You know, there is a chance for peace.

It's been presented that its just not possible outside of a non-viable 3rd party nuclear deterrent.  And since that'll never, nor should it, be plausible, I'm afraid there will be no functional peace.  Israel has the green light to do whatever they need to, I'm afraid     

Sirs, with all due respect, stop repeating the party line and please read the book. Get both sides of the story.

Why Palestinians Have Time on Their Side
By Jeffrey Goldberg May 25, 2011 2:28 AM GMT+0300

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-05-24/why-palestinians-have-time-on-their-side.html

If I were a Palestinian (and, should there be any confusion on this point, I am not), and if I were the sort of Palestinian who believed that Israel should be wiped off the map, then I would be quite pleased with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu?s performance before Congress this morning.

I would applaud Netanyahu for including no bold initiatives that would have suggested to the world that Israel is alive to the threat posed by its seemingly eternal occupation of the West Bank.

In fact, I would make support for Netanyahu the foundation stone of my patient campaign to dismantle the world?s only majority-Jewish country. I would support not only Netanyahu, but the far-right parties of his governing coalition, the parties that seem uninterested in democracy and obsessed with planting more Jewish settlements on the West Bank.

The settlements would have my wholehearted backing. I would encourage my brother Palestinians to help build settlements at a brisk pace. I would ask the Israelis to build an even more intricate system of bypass roads on the West Bank that would connect Jewish settlements to one another and to Israel proper. I would ask my ostensible allies among the Arab nations to provide interest-free mortgages to Israelis in Tel Aviv, so they could move out to the settlements for some fresh air and a little more yard. And, while I was at it, I would insist that my leaders abort their campaign for United Nations recognition of an independent state of Palestine.

Entanglement

My goal: To hopelessly, ineradicably, entangle the two peoples wedged between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea.

Then I would wait as the Israeli population on the West Bank grew, and grew some more. I would wait until 2017, 50 years after the Six Day War, which ended with Israel in control of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. I would go before the UN and say the following:

"We, the Palestinians, no longer seek a homeland of our own. We recognize the permanence of Israeli occupation, the dominion of the Israeli military and the power of the Israeli economy. So we would like to join them. In the 50 years since the beginning of the ?temporary? occupation, we have seen hundreds of thousands of Israelis build communities near our own communities. We admire what they have built, and the system of laws that governs their lives. Unlike them, many of us live under Israeli military law but have no say in choosing the Israelis who rule us. So we no longer want statehood. We simply want the vote."

And this, of course, would bring about the end of Israel.

Apartheid State

(IMO from Henny: They're already almost all the way there... but also IMO, this is still a great commentary.)

Either the Jews of Israel would grant the Palestinians the vote, at which point their country would lose its Jewish majority and its identity as a refuge for the Jewish people, or it would deny them the vote, and become an apartheid state. The latter option is untenable, of course: Many Jewish Israelis would be repulsed by this thought; other nations that already consider Israel a pariah would now have just cause; and Israel would lose its last remaining friend, the U.S., because no American -- including and especially young American Jews -- would identify with a country reminiscent of pre-Mandela South Africa.

If Netanyahu had been thinking strategically, he might have realized this when he went before Congress this morning. And he might have done something bold: Acknowledge that the age of Jewish settlement is over. He did mention, fleetingly, that certain settlements would be set adrift in a theoretical peace deal. But he seemed unaware that he was delivering a speech that could easily have been given 10 years ago.

It is not 10 years ago. Israel is now 10 years closer to achieving full pariah status. And -- in part because the Palestinians lack the patience to pursue a strategy of gradual, irreversible entanglement -- a moment of truth for Israel is rapidly approaching.

UN Vote

The Palestinians are seeking a UN vote in September on independence. They will prevail in the General Assembly, though not in the Security Council. President Barack Obama, with whom Netanyahu just picked a fight, will have to spend a good amount of political capital to stymie the Palestinian campaign, even though he appears to have nothing but contempt for Netanyahu?s lack of vision.

But American opposition to this unilateral declaration will be in many ways immaterial. Israel will soon enough be seen by most of the world as the occupier not of disputed territory but of a foreign country. The Palestinians will wake up to find that a General Assembly vote did not, in fact, give them true independence. And then there will be an explosion.

The Palestinians who are watching Yemenis, Libyans and Syrians fighting for their freedom will soon be inspired to once again take up their own fight.

Existential Threats

Netanyahu, who understands the existential threat posed by Iran, does not seem to understand the nature of this other existential threat. His five predecessors as prime minister -- including Ariel Sharon, whose heart did not bleed for Palestinians -- understood it. President Obama understands it, too.

"The number of Palestinians living west of the Jordan River is growing rapidly and fundamentally reshaping the demographic realities of both Israel and the Palestinian territories," Obama told members of AIPAC, the pro-Israel lobbying group, on May 22. "This will make it harder and harder, without a peace deal, to maintain Israel as both a Jewish state and a democratic state."

An eternal truth of Middle East politics is that the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. Lately, though, this has become an Israeli specialty. If Israel misses the chance this year to set the Palestinians on a course toward independence, it will jeopardize its future as a Jewish democracy.

A Magnanimous Vision

Yes, it will be dangerous for Israel to return to its 1967 borders, or anything close. The potential merger between Hamas and the more moderate Fatah is cause for despair, but it should spur Netanyahu to try to split the moderates from the radicals by offering a magnanimous vision for peace. He should realize that it will be fatal for Israel to maintain control over millions of Palestinians who seek what the people of Yemen and Libya and Syria seek: freedom.

Absent any hope of progress, the Palestinians will do what they can to undermine Israel. But all they have to do is wait.

(Jeffrey Goldberg is a Bloomberg View columnist. The opinions expressed are his own.)

Coming straight from Haaretz... if only 15% of Israelis even know about the 22-state Arab Peace Initiative, how many of YOU knew about it?
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The Israeli reality that Obama doesn't understand

It's impossible to understand why a country and a people continue to refuse to do the right thing, something that could have been done a long while back.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/the-israeli-reality-that-obama-doesn-t-understand-1.363442
By Merav Michaeli

"President Obama doesn't understand the reality," according to "associates" of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who spoke after the meeting between the two leaders. And when that is the headline of the daily Yisrael Hayom, it is clearly Netanyahu's headline: "President Obama doesn't understand the reality."

You can't blame him: It really is impossible to understand this reality. It's impossible to understand why a country and a people continue to refuse to do the right thing, something that could have been done a long while back, and prefer to continue to bang their heads against the wall until blood flows, with absolutely no logic, literally amok, like someone who has gone insane. It's hard to understand a reality in which a prime minister sits and, contrary to all logic and every code of conduct, arrogantly lectures his host, the president of the United States. It's hard to understand a reality in which a day before their scheduled meeting, a prime minister responds to the speech of the U.S. president, who is about to host him, with an announcement that is as good as spitting in his face.

So President Obama, here is the reality: The reality is that in the prime minister's own reality show, he is "the leader of a persecuted people" and he likes being "the leader of a persecuted people." That is why no reality in the world has ever convinced our leaders to stop being a persecuted nation. Even Abe Foxman, the chairman of the Anti-Defamation League, who can't be accused of being a leftist, says that Obama's speech is not against Israel and is not bad for Israel and that it includes many things that are good for Israel, but that doesn't make any impression on Bibi Netanyahu and his friends.

But it's not only you, Mr. President. Nine years ago, the 22 Arab League countries submitted a proposal for ending the conflict with the Palestinians and for full normalization with them. The leaders of the people that insist on being persecuted chose not to confuse themselves with the fact that 22 Arab countries were recognizing Israel and accepting its right to exist in peace alongside them. That is why our leaders simply ignored it. To the point where barely 15 percent of the Israeli public is even aware of the existence of the Arab initiative. That is why on Thursday, when we, members of the Israeli peace initiative delegation, presented the Egyptian foreign minister with the initiative that for the first time responds to the Arab peace initiative, he rightly said: For nine years the initiative has been on the table. Now you remembered?

The reality, Mr. President, is that change - thanks to which you were elected, and in which you believe - is the thing that Israel in general and Netanyahu in particular fear most. The reality is that the State of Israel has become accustomed to the present situation and does not recognize itself without it. Israel has existed longer with the occupation than without it; it has existed for most of its years with no border and is deathly afraid of change.

The reality is that Netanyahu never wanted or thought to initiate change. When he was elected two years ago, he understood that in order not to initiate change, he would have to play at negotiations that lead nowhere. But alas, there was nobody in the White House who would play this nice little game with him, and his true colors were exposed: He wants settlements, he wants occupation, he wants the situation as it is and sees no problem with it. And now, Netanyahu prefers confrontation. Confrontation with you, confrontation with the Palestinians, confrontation with anyone he sees as coming out against the persecuted people. The reality is simply that confrontation we already know, Mr. President, but peace we do not know at all.

Rabin was the best Israeli leader ever. And of course, some nut had to shoot him.

How does this GCC thing work? As I understand it, your Kia cost about double the real price because of Jordanian taxes. So apparently the GCC would remove import duties and Sportages would then be maybe $21K or so? But what would Jordan use to pay for the government, or whatever was getting all that import duty money?

We don't yet know how it all works. The newspapers here are starting to analyze the current GCC agreement to see what might come next. One bylaw is "like taxation" between the countries. Well... there are no taxes in the Gulf for anyone. Jordan as 16% GST, plus many hidden taxes. Plus things like the markup on cars. So how, indeed, would Jordan survive? Most people are saying that it would take a number of years for everything to roll out, giving time for investments in Jordan to build up, etc. I still don't get it, so we're waiting for more information.