Author Topic: Is Sara Bothered by these?  (Read 1595 times)

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Plane

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Re: Is Sara Bothered by these?
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2010, 10:50:26 PM »
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Aren't you at all disturbed by the GOP's claim of a monopoly on the average Joe, and their incessant characterization of him as some anti-tax, anti-"socialized medicine," pro-war, pro-tax-cuts-for-the rich, anti-immigrant, knuckle-dragging, Neanderthal?   You really think the Tea Party represents the average American or the typical man or woman from fly-over country?

You don't get it do you. I doesn't matter what the GOP says. The Tea Party is no more top down than libertarians take their marching orders from some DC wanker.

For a revolutionary, you don't know a revolution when you see one. And it didn't just start.

Look what Dean did harnessing the new technology of the internet. Look how Palin uses Twitter and Facebook.

And look what the establishment did with the Dean Scream. Same thing they are doing to Palin.

She is dumb because they told you she was dumb.

You are dumb because you believed them.





Well said.

Michael Tee

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Re: Is Sara Bothered by these?
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2010, 10:28:47 AM »
<<Your "Neanderthal" reference reveils your assumption that liberalism is advanced above other philosophys , what evidence supports this assumption?>>

I kind of go along with Thomas Hobbes.  In a state of nature, it's every man for himself, but in time, man organizes into social units with leadership and division of labour.  Cooperation and joint effort is an advance over the Hobbesian war of each against all.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Is Sara Bothered by these?
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2010, 12:18:14 PM »
I agree. Cooperation will generally get things done better than competition. Leave the competition for sports. Even in most sports, competition is required, except in single-person sports like weightlifting and discus flinging. The underlying assumption of "conservatism" is that everyone will naturally care for himself and his family. The assumption of liberalism is that people can, and should, find all the communalities that exist between them and cooperate to achieve goals mutually agreed upon. Th idea that the market will run best if unregulated is proven wrong with every crisis, but the reactionaries simply blame whatever regulation was in place. When the cannot do that, they blame the enforcers. That was a valid thing to do in the case of Madoff, but Madoff was not a trader, he was a thief. A Wall Street honcho turned thief. Wall Street is not supposed to be capable of producing Bernie Madoffs, but it did.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Is Sara Bothered by these?
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2010, 06:40:08 AM »
<<Your "Neanderthal" reference reveils your assumption that liberalism is advanced above other philosophys , what evidence supports this assumption?>>

I kind of go along with Thomas Hobbes.  In a state of nature, it's every man for himself, but in time, man organizes into social units with leadership and division of labour.  Cooperation and joint effort is an advance over the Hobbesian war of each against all.

Up to a point .

And up to that point conservatives agree quite well that encourageing co-operation is a good thing.

The point at which the entity of organisation becomes more important than the individual is the point at which it is no longer true that further organisation is beneficial.

You have to ask who is benefiting. If no individuals are important , why is society made of individuals important?

Michael Tee

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Re: Is Sara Bothered by these?
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2010, 06:52:02 AM »
<<The point at which the entity of organisation becomes more important than the individual is the point at which it is no longer true that further organisation is beneficial.>>

You may be right on occasion.  Still, you have to concede that importance or relative importance is in the eye of the beholder.

<<You have to ask who is benefiting. >>

Exactly.  All legislation is made with at least the ostensible aim of benefiting somebody, almost invariably some class of individuals.

<<If no individuals are important , why is society made of individuals important?>>

All individuals are important, but the class interests of some must be balanced against the class interests of others.  There is no law that benefits equally both lenders and borrowers, both landlords and tenants, both doctors and patients.  The interests of one class have to be weighed against the interests of the other every time.

Plane

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Re: Is Sara Bothered by these?
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2010, 01:39:08 AM »
<<The point at which the entity of organisation becomes more important than the individual is the point at which it is no longer true that further organisation is beneficial.>>

You may be right on occasion.  Still, you have to concede that importance or relative importance is in the eye of the beholder.


I can't think of an exception. What are you thinking of?
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<<You have to ask who is benefiting. >>

Exactly.  All legislation is made with at least the ostensible aim of benefiting somebody, almost invariably some class of individuals.

<<If no individuals are important , why is society made of individuals important?>>

All individuals are important, but the class interests of some must be balanced against the class interests of others.  There is no law that benefits equally both lenders and borrowers, both landlords and tenants, both doctors and patients.  The interests of one class have to be weighed against the interests of the other every time.

No ,not every time . Not every game is zero sum , as much as possible zero sum situations ought to be avoided .  The Win Win potential is quite frequently possible .Mutual benefit is the very heart of Capitolism. Nothing is better business than rich customers  who need you, and are getting richer. Sometimes it seems that the central idea of Communism is reduceing class conflict , and competition, by destroying the competing class.

Michael Tee

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Re: Is Sara Bothered by these?
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2010, 01:38:48 PM »
<<I can't think of an exception. What are you thinking of?>>

Are you kidding me?  The basic example is the lifeboat.  Four guys are gonna die unless one is sacrificed for food.  But each one of the four is an individual.

Further examples are everywhere.  Government-sponsored health-care has funding to save millions of cardiac patients and extend the lives of millions of cancer victims, but it can't fund promising research into a rare disease that will kill about 200 people annually.  But those two hundred are also individuals.  The U.S. government nobly incurred $3 trillion in costs to bring the blessings of democracy to the Iraqi people, but it cannot afford to bring the same blessings to the Chinese people by invading their country and killing their rulers too, yet the Chinese are individuals just as much as the Iraqis are.



<<No ,not every time [do the interests of one class have to be weighed against the interests of the other ]. Not every game is zero sum , as much as possible zero sum situations ought to be avoided . >>

You are talking nonsense.  Every time.  You cannot possibly devise a law that benefits lenders and borrowers equally.  Each class is constantly seeking its own advantage independent of the existing legal climate, and every law passed is passed at some point in that struggle.  Unless it is completely ineffective, it is bound to affect the relative position of each of the parties to the struggle as it existed immediately prior to the passage of the law, and since the law's purpose is to change something, that change can't possibly be equally good for both.

 <<The Win Win potential is quite frequently possible .Mutual benefit is the very heart of Capitolism. >>

More nonsense.  In that case all goods would be sold at cost.

<<Nothing is better business than rich customers  who need you, and are getting richer. >>

You are certainly living in some kind of fantasy world.  At least I can tell you have never been in business.  You seem to know almost nothing about business.  A businessman wants customers who want and need his product.  Whether they are rich or poor doesn't concern him in the least, as long as they always have enough for him.  When people are poor, they have to work in his factory and eat his shit.  When they are rich they don't have to.  He doesn't want to see lots of rich people competing for the same luxury goods he buys, because that just boosts the price he has to pay for them himself.  And customers don't have to be rich to need food in their stomach and gas in their car.  Supermarkets and gas stations stay open in 2% unemployment and in double-digit unemployment.  As long as people have enough money to buy stuff, that's all the businessman cares about.  If a factory worker's wages are quadrupled, he's not gonna eat four times as much food.  He might buy better stuff to eat, but there's a limit to how much he's gonna spend on food or gas.

<<Sometimes it seems that the central idea of Communism is reduceing class conflict , and competition, by destroying the competing class.>>

Communism seeks the end of the class struggle and the equalization of wealth to the point where there are no more classes and no more class war.