Here's the deal.....as I see it.....at this moment

[Michael Tee]

<<And ironically, neither is Obama [real change].  You need to look no further than in his veep pick, for that confirmation.>>

Biden is like an anchor around Obama's neck.  IMHO.   Of course it undercuts the original promise of change.  I've never tried to paint it any other way.

But if you grant for a moment that each candidate is saying or doing what he thinks he needs to say or do to get elected - - Obama is picking Biden to cut into McCain voters who like experience; McCain is talking change to cut into Obama voters who wan change - - what you are left with is:  two guys each spouting a line of BS meant to cut into the other guy's support.

So then I say, OK, look deeper because if we don't, we're stuck with two candidates with nothing much to choose between them.  When you go deeper - - who is funding their campaign?  you come up with a radical departure from pre-existing candidacies.  McCain is tapping all the usual sources: Big Business, defence contractors, the Israel Lobby, the NRA, etc.  Obama is tapping into an entirely new vein, the individual citizens who can give $25, $50 each - - unlike Hillary, Biden and the rest of them, he is NOT beholden to the Israel Lobby or the giant lobbies that have up until now exercised a stranglehold on U.S. policies and made sure that certain logical options remained permanently off the table.

So Obama presents at least the POSSIBILITY of a new direction, whereas there is nothing in McCain's record that would lead anyone to think that he WON'T be beholden to the same old interests and that he won't do his damndest to keep the U.S.A. on the same track (more or less) as it's been on since the end of the Second World War.

<< . . . is just a tired old socialist agenda...higher taxes, more government regulations, bigger government, and "the rich" will pay for it all....or else they're not being patriotic. >>

Well, how can you have it both ways?  On the one hand you claim he doesn't stick out his neck and announce a policy, and on the other you seem to already know what his policies are going to be.

<<Oh, and let's not forget to "say whatever needs to be said, in order to get elected", which includes lying of course, and going back on nearly every pledge and promise made during the primaries.  >>

Surely you're not claiming that Obama's the only one who says what he needs to say to win.  McCain was against overturning Roe v. Wade, now he wants strict constructionist judges, he was castigating the Christian right for intolerance, now he's chasing after them, against Bush tax cuts, now for them, in 24 hours was against and then for the AIG bail-out, experience was key to the Oval Office, then suddenly Palin has all the experience she needs to step in.

<<Whatever it takes.....trashing families>>

Oh, please, NOBODY trashed the family, the mother came in for more criticism than the daughter IIRC.  This is all about Palin, not about her family except to the extent that it shows up her incompetence at even the most basic human task, raising a family, which billions are able to manage.

<< trashing children . . .>>

more bullshit

<< trashing mothers . . . >>

Mother.  singular.  Keep it honest, only ONE mother got trashed for a lousy job, and which mother do you think that was?

<< pulling out the race card, because......well, because McCain is that evil>>

Keep it honest, sirs, the RACE CARD was played by McCain with his "bimbo" commercial, not by Obama.

[Plane]

Oh, please, NOBODY trashed the family, the mother came in for more criticism than the daughter IIRC.  This is all about Palin, not about her family except to the extent that it shows up her incompetence at even the most basic human task, raising a family, which billions are able to manage.

<< trashing children . . .>>

more bullshit

<< trashing mothers . . . >>

Mother.  singular.  Keep it honest, only ONE mother got trashed for a lousy job, and which mother do you think that was?

Do you think that all Illigetamate mothers are simularly failures? Or more precicely the parents of such mothers? This could be a big voteing block for Obama to do without.

 << pulling out the race card, because......well, because McCain is that evil>>

Keep it honest, sirs, the RACE CARD was played by McCain with his "bimbo" commercial, not by Obama.
[/quote]

That isn't honest. The Commercial that you refer to was racist only in code, that only you understand.

[sirs]

<<And ironically, neither is Obama [real change].  You need to look no further than in his veep pick, for that confirmation.>>

Biden is like an anchor around Obama's neck.  IMHO.   Of course it undercuts the original promise of change.  I've never tried to paint it any other way.

And yet, this "man of change", this man who applies the word "change" in every other sentence, this man who's going to usher in all this new "change", in his 1st biggest decision as the Democrat Presidential candidate, the one everyone, both left & right, are looking at, to see just how serious he is in backing up this perseverating mantra of "change", picks as his running mate.........the epitome of the status quo, a Senator who's been there since NIXON.

And I'm guessing much of the electorate, who hasn't been drinking the Oblather kool-aide, that if THIS is the type of "change" we can expect in further decision making, then it's no different than anything the left could hang around McCain's neck

And while the rest of your post was flowered with the ususal myopic view of what is, is, (like the laughable attempt to again raise the Hilton ad as racist), I'm comfortable with the electorate seeing thru all the mantra's of "change".  Some folks use change to advance their careers, while others use their careers to advance change.  I know which one is which.  Come Nov, we'll see if the electorate figures it out

[fatman]

To fatman, I want to say only that you have totally misconstrued the Left's take on Palin's pregnant teen - - it's not that the Left gives a shit about the "immorality" of teenage sex, it's the fucking HYPOCRISY of these "family values" politicians and the Republican Party in particular which is angling for the support of the Christian Right, to whom - - one would think - - "family values" are all that important.

MT,

I think that I've sufficiently addressed the issue of hypocrisy in this campaign in other posts, and I'm assuming that you understand that I am in no way enamored with the religious right and the various hypocrisies that exist within that coalition.

But let me tell you a story that will hopefully demonstrate to you why I don't have an issue with Palin re: her pregnant daughter and why I'm willing to give that a pass when in most cases I'd be agreeing with you.

My grandfather, who passed away last October, was more of a "Dad" to me than my own father.  My real father, who lived with my mother and three sisters was not a nice man, he was a drunk and was mean as hell when he was drunk and really enjoyed using his fists on those occasions, even on a six year old.  Every weekend, my grandmother would take my sisters and my grandfather would take me, and we'd usually go hunting or fishing for whatever was in season.  When I was seven he bought me my first salmon pole, when I was nine he bought me my first .22 .  He's been on my mind a lot lately, the rain that comes in early autumn brings back a lot of memories of deer hunting with him, sitting in his truck watching the rain, driving around on logging roads with country music low in the background, smelling the smell of cigarette smoke and coffee that he always carried around with him.  He wasn't necessarily a nice man, he had a tendency to be hard but he was always fair and I don't ever recall him being mean just for the fun of it.  He taught me the importance of saving money and the value of hard work.  I think everyone has one main "hero" in their life, he was mine.

My mother was his daughter.  She was pregnant with me when she was 16.  Knowing my grandfather, I'm sure she at least considered an abortion, but she didn't and I'm here.  That's one of my main reasons why I really don't like abortion and consider it to be a sick and disgusting thing.  She and my father divorced when I was 15, she went to college and now makes a very comfortable living.  She worked three jobs to do that and to support us while she did it.  I don't think that bad parenting had much, if anything, to do with her getting pregnant with me.  I do tend to think that it was generally a thing that happened, and always will happen, with teenagers being teenagers.  But the thing is, and the point to my meandering post, is that with Palin, I don't know and you don't know what was going on in the household at the time.  The only ones that know are the people in the household.  And yes, I would love to point the finger at Palin and say "What a hypocrite, preaching "values" when your own kid is pregnant".  But I can't, because I came from that, and for me to do that, would make me a hypocrite.

So while I understand your point, I'm not in agreement with it.  I think that there are far better things to go after Palin for, and her daughter isn't on that list.  I think that it has hurt the Democrats, because there's a lot of people in the country, Democrat and Republican and in-between, that have faced or dealt with this situation, and it's a whole lot more complicated than the religious right (and now the secular left) allow credit for.

[Michael Tee]

Thanks for the story, fatman, and I really appreciate your sharing it with us.

I'll tell ya my take on it, and I am speaking as the father of one son and two daughters.  My wife basically looked after the informal sex education of our two girls, and from the little I happened to overhear, it sounded like the dormitory discussions of three boarding-school teenagers about the facts of life, rather than a mother talking to two daughters.   They seemed to be having a good time. 

But whatever the technique, I knew that my wife, a solidly-grounded and conscientious parent, would give those girls everything they needed to face adolescent life and the challenges of their own burgeoning sexuality with wisdom, street smarts and confidence.  I knew they would never be victims and never be compromised.  They grew into self-confident, strong and smart women and I give my wife 100% credit for that.  She gave them what her own mother gave her.

But just as it makes sense for my wife to take the credit for how our two girls turned out, it makes sense for Palin to take the blame for how HER daughter turned out.  Teenage pregnancy, even though it produces the odd fatman, is NOT generally considered to be a desirable state of affairs.  Far as I can see, the teenage Palin pregnancy represents a dramatic failure of Palin's efforts as a mother.  She FAILED at a task that I would estimate a good 90% or more of the mothers of the world succeed at, raising a daughter who knows enough about life to avoid a teenage pregnancy.  And still she asks for your trust and confidence in taking on a much more challenging and dangerous task.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Biden is a smart man, much smarter than McCain. Probably at least as desperate to hold national office. He was not my favorite choice, but he is hardly a deal breaker.

The enemies of the middle class are not the Democrats, but guys like Mitch McConnell. They are the ones out to pass laws that allow credit card companies to loot and plunder the middle class.

Mc Cain does not really value experience, or he would have chosen a VP with more experience than Palin, who has practically none. She was something bright and shiny to those who do not think, and a lure to the extreme reactionary right wing.

Mc Cain is desperate to get the job, but if he is elected, we know he will compromise away every last principle, as he did with the torture bill" the CIA can waterboard, because waterboarding was not defined as torture, and anyone the military can waterboard by making them a temporary CIA spook. The net result is that torture is still permitted, and McCain has agreed to shut up about it.

No other legislation he championed in the past 20 odd years seems to have been of much value. And no, he did not inherit the priozed mantle of Barry Goldwater. Goldwater hated his guts and thought he was a phony.