Author Topic: I Just Discovered Why Mikey Likes Obama, Pelosi & Reid  (Read 3346 times)

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Michael Tee

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Re: I Just Discovered Why Mikey Likes Obama, Pelosi & Reid
« Reply #45 on: January 23, 2010, 07:32:29 PM »
<<MT, what you are is a turd. A smelly, semi-broken in places, unhealthy, dried blood laced, turd.>>

This from the guy who just told me to grow the fuck up.

Get over it, BSB.  You assisted, facilitated and enabled, in your own small way, a criminal war of unprovoked aggression that took millions of lives that your country had no business taking.

You did what you did and nothing in the world can change it.  Calling me a turd won't change it.  Better men than you dodged, deserted, campaigned against the war, threw back their medals, went public with their stories of atrocities and crimes against humanity.  Every step of the way you had a choice, and every step of the way, you chose wrong.  Even today you continue to defend those who enabled the machine and to vilify those who tried to stop it.

In the meantime, as we speak, the machine rolls on, already targeting its next victms.  WTF is wrong with you?

BT

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Re: I Just Discovered Why Mikey Likes Obama, Pelosi & Reid
« Reply #46 on: January 23, 2010, 08:50:20 PM »
Mikey,

There is a difference between you and BSB.
When called to act upon commitments he fulfilled his, you begged off because of other priorities.

Morally he has the higher ground.

You simply have woulda coulda shoulda regrets.
 

BSB

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Re: I Just Discovered Why Mikey Likes Obama, Pelosi & Reid
« Reply #47 on: January 23, 2010, 10:25:57 PM »
There's nothing immature about calling you a turd, MT, because that's exactly what you are. In fact you might be the worlds biggest turd.     


Michael Tee

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Re: I Just Discovered Why Mikey Likes Obama, Pelosi & Reid
« Reply #48 on: January 23, 2010, 11:08:59 PM »
<<There is a difference between you and BSB.>>

THAT'S for God-damn sure.

<<When called to act upon commitments he fulfilled his . . .  >>

You sure put your finger right on the essence of the problem, BT.  First of all, why did he commit himself to power-hungry out-of-control institutions whose corruption and amorality were already common knowledge?  Secondly, when he finally realized that the war was wrong, where was the strength of character, where was the integrity that it took to separate himself from the enterprise from then to now?  Two simple questions to which there are simply no answers. 

<< . . . you begged off because of other priorities.>>

If you can't keep your facts straight, there isn't much further this debate can go.  I'll try to keep you on track this time, but I'm not going to keep repeating the corrections if you keep repeating the errors.  "Begging off" implies slipping out of one's responsibilities.  As I explained, I balanced my duties, as a citizen of the world, as a husband and as a father.  I did not "beg off" my moral duty to end the war, I partially fulfilled it.  I did not "beg off" my responsibilities as a husband and father.  I accept some degree of criticism that I did not push the anti-war imperative as far as perhaps I could have pushed it, but pushing it much further would have necessitated a betrayal of some of my duties as a husband and father.  I did what I could, but maybe not all that I could.

If I were to follow your cockamamie logic, it would place the bank robber on a higher moral plane than the guy who pursues him one or two blocks and then drops out of the chase.  The bank robber followed his commitments to his gang and fulfilled them, whereas his pursuer gave up after chasing him only two blocks and has nothing but coulda woulda shoulda.

<<Morally he [the guy with the blood on his hands] has the higher ground.>>

Well, congratulations, BT.  You just succeeded in one single post in demonstrating conclusively not only your total moral bankruptcy but your total intellectual bankruptcy as well.  Your logic makes no sense and your morality, placing a higher moral value on the man who abets and facilitates the death machine than on the man who tries to stop it, is not only pathetic but sick. 

I couldn't have asked for a better example of the need that your country has to strike out in a new direction.  You've certainly taken fascism, militarism and war-mongering about as far as they can go.  Time for some new American paradigms, I'm afraid.  Thanks for demonstrating so conclusively the bankruptcy of the old ones.


Michael Tee

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Re: I Just Discovered Why Mikey Likes Obama, Pelosi & Reid
« Reply #49 on: January 23, 2010, 11:19:48 PM »
<<There's nothing immature about calling you a turd, MT . . . >>

Oh, of course not, BSB.  On the contrary, it's a whole new style of 21st century debating, call it Extreme Debating, if you will.  Coming to an open-air latrine near you.

<< . .    because that's exactly what you are. In fact you might be the worlds biggest turd.>>

No, not immature at all.  BTW, is this the point where I'm supposed to say, "Oh no I'm not, but you are?"   Ooooh, this is exciting.  I can see where we are going to have some really thrilling exchanges.  When do we get to the point where we can dispense with the written words (after all, I would expect that not all the devotees of Extreme Debating are actually literate) and just start grabbing and flinging actual handfuls of real shit?

BT

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Re: I Just Discovered Why Mikey Likes Obama, Pelosi & Reid
« Reply #50 on: January 23, 2010, 11:28:21 PM »
Oh i see.

You get to balance your aversion to the evil of war with the responsibilities of supporting your family and getting on with your career.

But BSB is not given that same latitude of honoring his commitment to his fellows soldiers even though he had reservations about that particular military action.

Quote
Your logic makes no sense and your morality, placing a higher moral value on the man who abets and facilitates the death machine than on the man who tries to stop it, is not only pathetic but sick.

So let me make sure i have the numbers correct. Your failure to end the war due to the balancing act you had to perform between idealism and the pragmatism of family responsibilities, resulted in millions of additional deaths. But that's OK you did what you could and certainly you wanted to do more and that counts for something right?

Yet BSB with direct control of the trigger was responsible for a whole bunch less lives. Not only did he have the means to take life, but he also had the means to save lives.



Moral advantage BSB.





Plane

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Re: I Just Discovered Why Mikey Likes Obama, Pelosi & Reid
« Reply #51 on: January 23, 2010, 11:59:32 PM »
  Is the premise being accepted then, that Communism should have been allowed to spread without resistance?

   I don't like that premise , that Communism had a potential to encircle the globe and extinguish freedom of thought everywhere is true as far as I can tell , therefore the fight against that eventuality was worthy .


      Was there a better feild to resist this than Korea and Vietnam?  Maybe so, maybe not, but there was certaily going to be a serious fight somewhere.

BSB

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Re: I Just Discovered Why Mikey Likes Obama, Pelosi & Reid
« Reply #52 on: January 24, 2010, 12:03:09 AM »
I didn't facilitate jack shit, MT, let alone the war in Vietnam. Unlike you I don't control the world. I only control my tiny little corner of it, and I can only do that part of the time and that's if I'm lucky. I don't have any illusions of grandeur. I don't pass judgement on the actions of others unless they threaten me or a loved one. People like you start more wars by a 1000 then people like me. I take that back. People like you don't do anything at all but stick their noses where they don't belong. Go live your own life, MT, and stop trying to live it through the experiences of others. Trust me, I have no desire to live the life of a snowblower. You couldn't pay me enough to post on some Canuck forum.


Michael Tee

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Re: I Just Discovered Why Mikey Likes Obama, Pelosi & Reid
« Reply #53 on: January 24, 2010, 12:39:36 AM »
<<You get to balance your aversion to the evil of war with the responsibilities of supporting your family and getting on with your career.>>

Well, that is what I did, and I admit some guilt for not having done more.

<<But BSB is not given that same latitude of honoring his commitment to his fellows soldiers even though he had reservations about that particular military action.>>

Maybe we should get a few basic facts here straight.  My wife and daughter, as far as I know, were not engaged at the time in invading somebody else's homeland on false pretexts, bombing and napalming villages, torturing and murdering prisoners, or engaging in a killing spree that ultimately claimed some two million Vietnamese lives.  My wife was basically engaged in such mundane activities as earning a living, then nurturing a baby, and my baby was primarily engaged in consuming whatever nutriments my wife could rustle up for her, digesting and excreting them and sleeping.

I had no problem making a commitment to love and support my wife and baby.  Such a commitment did not entail doing harm to other human beings, let alone harm on the scale committed by BSB and the soldiers to whom he made his "commitment."

So the first observation I'd make in response to your comment is that there is a huge difference between the commitment that I made to my wife and daughter and the "commitment" that BSB allegedly made to his fellow trained killers.

My second point is that at some point BSB observed that the end result of the commitment he made was in some way he never made clear to us, unsavoury or mistaken or in some manner unworthy.  Yet he stuck to it.  I on the other hand had no reason to reconsider my commitment.  If at some future point in time, I had realized that my wife and daughter were or had become junkies, thieves and prostitutes, I might have reconsidered my commitment and taken appropriate steps to back out of it.  What we know about BSB is that despite torture, massacre, atrocities and crimes against humanity on a massive scale, he made no attempt to back out of the commitment that he made and remains committed to this day.

Another point I make is that the whole story of BSB's commitment to his fellow soldiers is just a cop-out.  Those men were not his household pets or his domestic farm animals.  They are and always have been independent, sovereign moral actors.  If they felt they had to go to Nam, that was their decision.  It had no binding power over BSB and he had no binding obligation to them.  Each individual had the choice to make, go or stay behind.  Each made his choice and each is responsible for the moral consequences of that choice.  BSB unfortunately chose to support the machine - - to abet and enable the mass killing that ultimately took two million Vietnamese lives.  BSB as an active participant bears a direct share in the responsibility for each one of those lives taken, a responsibility stemming directly from the choice that he made to go to Nam.  


<<So let me make sure i have the numbers correct. Your failure to end the war due to the balancing act you had to perform between idealism and the pragmatism of family responsibilities, resulted in millions of additional deaths. But that's OK you did what you could and certainly you wanted to do more and that counts for something right?

<<Yet BSB with direct control of the trigger was responsible for a whole bunch less lives. Not only did he have the means to take life, but he also had the means to save lives.>>

Wow, you are really fucked up, BT.  For one thing, although BSB "had the means to save lives," that's not what he was sent there for.  Any lives he saved would have been purely by chance, unless you mean the lives of other invaders like himself, all of whom deserved to die anyway for invading the homeland of a people who had done no harm and meant no harm to the people of the U.S.A.  You also seem to have a severely dysfunctional concept of cause and effect and of proportionality.  My responsibility for not giving my all to end the war is shared by 30 million Canadians and 300 million Americans.  If responsibility were something you could taste in the water, mine would never even be suspected.  When BSB goes to Nam and shoots someone, he is 100% responsible for the loss of that life and for the misery of that person's loved ones.   If he trains someone else to make the hit, 50% responsible.

Michael Tee

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Re: I Just Discovered Why Mikey Likes Obama, Pelosi & Reid
« Reply #54 on: January 24, 2010, 12:52:38 AM »
<<I didn't facilitate jack shit, MT, let alone the war in Vietnam. Unlike you I don't control the world. I only control my tiny little corner of it, and I can only do that part of the time and that's if I'm lucky. I don't have any illusions of grandeur. I don't pass judgement on the actions of others unless they threaten me or a loved one. People like you start more wars by a 1000 then people like me. I take that back. People like you don't do anything at all but stick their noses where they don't belong. Go live your own life, MT, and stop trying to live it through the experiences of others. Trust me, I have no desire to live the life of a snowblower. You couldn't pay me enough to post on some Canuck forum.>>

BSB, this "dialogue" between us goes on an on and never gets anywhere.  It's not doing you any good and it's not doing me any good, so I'm going to do us both a favour and pull the plug on it.

I regard the whole thing as an open sore, a huge wrong that was never acknowledged, let alone righted.  I'm still angry and somewhat unfairly the only person I've been able to take out my anger on has been you.  The subject is a sore tooth that I can't resist sucking on and the whole experience has been negative and hurtful.  I'm sorry I got sucked into this but I can't seem to resist the pull.  I keep coming back.  Obviously the causes of this whole thing are bigger than you, so about 99% of my anger should be directed elsewhere but still seems to keep landing on you anyway.  I'm sorry about that.

BT

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Re: I Just Discovered Why Mikey Likes Obama, Pelosi & Reid
« Reply #55 on: January 24, 2010, 12:57:28 AM »
There is something about being in the arena that the bystanders in the bleachers can never understand.


BSB

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Re: I Just Discovered Why Mikey Likes Obama, Pelosi & Reid
« Reply #56 on: January 24, 2010, 12:59:15 AM »
I understand Canuck. You Canadians feel diminished around Americans. In addition, you personally, feel diminished around me. What choice do you have but to put America, and me, down, MT. The only thing I ask is that you give it a rest once in awhile.  It really makes you look unhinged.



Michael Tee

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Re: I Just Discovered Why Mikey Likes Obama, Pelosi & Reid
« Reply #57 on: January 24, 2010, 01:08:39 AM »
Yeah, BSB, that must be it.