Author Topic: This sums it all up real well  (Read 42825 times)

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Plane

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Re: This sums it all up real well
« Reply #120 on: December 08, 2006, 12:24:46 AM »
Saddam, or more specifically, Saddam's Iraq was not a wasp. A wasp you can kill, not a country.

It was highly unlikely that Saddam could have lauched any attack on the US proper, although US assets in the area were possible targets. Saddam was largely bluster. We saw this throughout his trial.

 


Can you imagine that Saddeam would always be just bluster if he were in power and flush with cash ?

I can't imagine that the sanctions were going to last much longer and when Saddam was free of them in the past his bluster killed a cupple of million people.

Universe Prince

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Re: This sums it all up real well
« Reply #121 on: December 08, 2006, 01:27:39 AM »

I can't imagine that the sanctions were going to last much longer and when Saddam was free of them in the past his bluster killed a cupple of million people.


And meanwhile with sanctions the people of Iraq suffered from a lack of trade, which resulted in an inability to repair needed infrastructure, a lack of medicine and food, and the deaths of thousands of people—mostly children as I understand it—from otherwise preventable causes. Was it really worth the price?
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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Michael Tee

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Re: This sums it all up real well
« Reply #122 on: December 08, 2006, 01:38:14 AM »
sirs:
<<Well, to folks with a grasp of what Bush was saying, especially as it relates to why we went into Iraq, his comments are perfectly in line with that reality. >>


"THAT REALITY" was that Saddam had no WMD.  

What Bush was saying was:  <<we have arrived at an important moment in confronting the threat posed to our nation and to peace by Saddam Hussein and his weapons of terror. . .
Saddam Hussein and his weapons are a direct threat to this country, to our people, and to all free people.
>>

Now how could what Bush was saying possibly be "perfectly in line with reality?"  There were no WMD.  Furthermore, even if Saddam HAD such weapons, he would never have used them against the U.S.A.  Proof?  This was a man who hadn't even dared to attack tiny Kuwait without first getting U.S. approval.  Further, when U.S. forces arrived, he withdrew from Kuwait without a fight.  This was a man who at the height of his power was scared shitless of the U.S.A. and now years later with his armed forces at a fraction of their prior strength, he was going to strike the U.S.A. with WMD?  That's bullshit and everybody knows it.  The fact is, Bush was lying to your face.



< <Intel said Saddam had WMD. >>

No it did not.  Some intel of very dubious quality - - which for some unexplained reason Bush now claims to have sincerely believed in - - although, strangely,  with no attempt whatsoever to probe or test it further - - seemed to correspond with what Bush and his Zionist advisers associated with PNAC had long sought to find, namely a reason, however bogus, for invading Iraq and seizing its oil.  Had the "intel" been probed further, it would have been found to emanate from one source, the Iraqi National Congress, an Iraqi exile group headed by Ahmad Chalabi, who had lobbied long and hard to get Washington onboard his campaign to overthrow and replace Saddam.

Now you have two choices - - you can believe that Bush, and more significantly, the people around him, were so fucking stupid or lazy that they were unable to discern the phony basis of the "intel" that pointed to WMD (including that it all came from the Iraqi National Congress and that it rested in part on crudely forged documents) OR you can believe that they are NOT that lazy or stupid, probably saw through that "intel" but CHOSE to adopt it as their "reason" for invading Iraq because they needed a reason, any reason, having already decided in accordance with their preconceived plan (PNAC) to invade Iraq for its oil.  Personally, while I don't think much of their brain-power, I don't believe they were too dumb to see through such obviously bad intelligence, and so I go with the idea they cherry-picked the intel that suited their nefarious plans, no matter how rotten it was.  What they were really looking for was a fig-leaf.

<<Saddam had used WMD.>>

BFD.  Who hasn't?  But never against America.  Only against Iran (with America's blessing and assistance) and the Kurds.  Neither of whom had the massive power to wipe Saddam and his country from the face of the earth.

<<Saddam had connections with terrorists . . . >>

Now that is the perfect example of disinformation.  A meaningless and vague factoid ("links/connections to "terrorists") is coined which can mean everything or nothing.  What kind of connections (how close, how involved?) and with which "terrorists?"  But as soon as the meaningless factoid rolls off the bullshit factory's production lines, it is taken up by the brainless robots who parrot the administration line, understanding not a word of it, as if it were some sacred mantra.

The real tragedy here is an entire generation of Americans completely untrained in any kind of critical thought, ready to parrot whatever meaningless garbage their government hands out to them without even once pausing to ponder its meaning.  "Links to terrorists.  AWWK.  Links to terrorists."  Solves all arguments.  "Links to terrorists" means you can invade them.  "Links to terrorists" means you can torture them, jail them indefinitely without charges or trials, etc.

<< . . .  which included the same group that orchestrated 911.>>

That would be Al Qaeda, a group of religious fanatics totally at odds with the socialist and secular government of Iraq's Ba"ath Arab Socialist Party.  

<<Ergo, Saddam's WMD in the hands of such terrorists, indeed was "a direct threat to this country, to our people, and to all free people">>

Ergo.  Ergo non-existent weapons somehow passing from Saddam's hands and now (according to Bush) "in the hands" of a group of terrorists that happen to hate Saddam's guts (but who seem to have some mysterious and irrestistible claim on his arsenal of WMD) are indeed "a direct threat to [the people of the USA.]   Yes, Bush SINCERELY BELIEVED that Saddam's WMD were likely handed over for reasons unstated by Saddam to a group of religious fanatics who hated his Westernized socialist and secular party and everything he and it stood for; moreover, who could easily cause Saddam and his entire nation to be anihilated either by turning the weapons on Iraq themselves, or using them on the USA, which would then turn on Iraq in revenge when it inevitably discovered where the WMD had come from in the first place.

Not only would Saddam have to be nuts to DO that, but Bush would have to be nuts to BELIEVE that Saddam would do that.

Now you can believe (if you are stupid enough) that Bush sincerely believed in all that shit.  Which in my opinion is quite a stretch.  Or you can believe, as is much more likely, that Bush believed no such thing, was lying like a trooper and lied for one reason only - - to build public support for an invasion of Iraq which had been planned for years, for reasons totally unconnected to the cock-and-bull WMD story, for the only reason that would in fact make sense for invading Iraq, which is:  for the oil.

sirs

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Re: This sums it all up real well
« Reply #123 on: December 08, 2006, 01:40:10 AM »
And meanwhile with sanctions the people of Iraq suffered from a lack of trade, which resulted in an inability to repair needed infrastructure, a lack of medicine and food, and the deaths of thousands of people—mostly children as I understand it—from otherwise preventable causes. Was it really worth the price?

Perhaps thats a question that should be aimed more to the UN, as it was UN sanctions, and correct me if I'm wrong, the UN did impliment an Oil for Food Program that was specifically to address your above concerns.  How'd that program work out, by the way?
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

sirs

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Re: This sums it all up real well
« Reply #124 on: December 08, 2006, 01:41:54 AM »
sirs:
<<Well, to folks with a grasp of what Bush was saying, especially as it relates to why we went into Iraq, his comments are perfectly in line with that reality. >>

"THAT REALITY" was that Saddam had no WMD.  

That REALITY also included that nearly everyone believed he did.  At least to those of a rational mind.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2006, 01:53:21 AM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: This sums it all up real well
« Reply #125 on: December 08, 2006, 01:49:37 AM »
"Some intel of very dubious quality..."

[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]


Whith the benefit of hindsight we know which intel was better.

Without such benefit how would one know?

During WWII the British managed to make the Germans beleive that an attack on Sardinia was immanant when the real target was Sicily , they again misdirected the Germans with a feint twards the Northern beaches of Calis when the real target was Normandy.

Saddam successfully hid his WMD , inspireing either the mistaken presumption that they did exist back then or the mistaken beleif that they do not right now.

It is one or the other.

What intel of what quality do any of us know of that tells us where this stuff went?

We know he bought some of the precursors , some even from us , but it is gone without a trace and I don't have the intel to tell me how it was done.

Michael Tee

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Re: This sums it all up real well
« Reply #126 on: December 08, 2006, 01:55:39 AM »
<<Quaddifi attacked us in what he hoped would be a secret way, this is not an improbable choice for Saddam to make.>>

As I recall, the U.S. had no trouble finding out where the Libyan attack came from.  This would tend to DISCOURAGE Saddam from attacking the U.S.A. covertly.  The loss of Libya's cover for even a relatively trivial attack would not be an encouraging sign to anyone planning to attack the U.S. covertly with WMD.

<<The anchient adadge is to not strike a wasp gently because the wasp however wounded will sting but the dead one will not.>>

The ancient adage starts with the premise that the wasp is going to sting you.  The whole point of the argument here is that all the evidence points to the conclusion that Saddam would be extremely unlikely to attack the U.S.A. with WMD, therefore Bush and his advisers did not really believe that he would, therefore they were lying when they said he was a threat to America.

<<If Saddam had been set free of sanctions his actions might not have been warlike , probably would not have looked warlike from the outside , but I challenge your assertion that an attack from Saddam was "Improbable".>>

But your challenge was based on two arguments that turned out to be total bullshit, one of which wasn't even relevant - -

1.   that because Libya had tried to attack the U.S. covertly, Saddam would too - - which is total nonsense, since (a) Libya wasn't engaged in a major attack which would have invited nuclear anihilation and (b) the U.S. had no problem at all tracing the attack back to Libya;

2.  that wasp thing, which already STARTS from the premise that an insect is determined to sting you, and the point of it is that if such an insect is wounded, it will still try to sting you.  Compeletely irrelevant.  The issue isn't how to treat an enemy determined to attack you, but whether Saddam was or was not likely or determined to attack you.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2006, 02:18:52 AM by Michael Tee »

Michael Tee

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Re: This sums it all up real well
« Reply #127 on: December 08, 2006, 02:14:07 AM »
<<That REALITY also included that nearly everyone believed he did.>>

No, Bush did not say that "nearly everyone believed."  That's YOU, re-writing the lying bastard's speech long after it was delivered to make it fit what YOU think the reality was.

First of all, let's look at Bush's speech as he delivered it, not as you re-wrote it:
<<Saddam Hussein and his weapons are a direct threat to this country, to our people . . . >>

He DID NOT tell you "nearly everyone believed" Hussein's WMD were a threat.  He told you "his weapons are a threat . . ."

He told you a big fucking lie.  There were no weapons.  There was no threat.  Nobody including Bush was stupid enough (a) to believe the obviously suspect intelligence or (b) to believe that Saddam would attack the US with WMD.

Now let's look at this "nearly everyone believed . . . " bullshit.  Where on earth do you find this BS?  First off, WHO is "nearly everyone?"  WTF does that mean?  And HOW do you know what "nearly everyone" believed?  Did you take a poll of "nearly everyone?"

This is what I mean about bullshit propaganda mantras manufactured by government bullshit factories and parrotted mindlessly by people like you who apparently refuse to exercise their brains by asking questions.  Much easier to just memorize and repeat endlessly.

If "nearly everyone" believed this utterly unbelievable nonsense, how come Bush couldn't convince the French, Germans, Russians, Chinese, Canadians and others of the great menace?

  <<At least to those of a rational mind.>>

Did it ever occur to you that those of a rational mind, including the Chief Executive whose final decision on the matter would mean life or death to hundreds of thousands of human beings, would want to probe into the "intel" to examine its sources, to cross-check its references, etc. and would have found all the flaws in it that turned up so easily after the event?  That the key British intelligence survey was cribbed in part from a student's five-year-old thesis, that all of the WMD allegations could be traced back to the Iraqi National Congress, that the yellowcake papers had been forged?  Surely that would have excited some suspicion of the conclusions, wouldn't it?

I believe your "President" is dumb, those around him not so dumb but not especially bright, and that ALL of them are of rational mind.  That - - had they been interested - - they WOULD have probed the "intel" and they would easily have found that it was bullshit.  They didn't bother becasue it didn't matter.  They had already decided on an invasion as per the PNAC plans that they had previously drawn up before Bush's presidency, and it didn't matter if the intel was good or bad as long as ON THE SURFACE it seemed to support the invasion.

Plane

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Re: This sums it all up real well
« Reply #128 on: December 08, 2006, 02:22:24 AM »
"As I recall, the U.S. had no trouble finding out where the Libyan attack came from."

[][][][][][][][][][][][][]
You recall wrongly , it was very difficult and could have been with a little less luck futile.

Saddam might have had better luck , but the real point is whether he might even try, I use Quaddiffi not as a model of Saddam exactly but as a demonstration that the attempt is not actually "improbable".


Whether Saddam as an insect might never sting ignores that Saddam was already very aggreved with us , he was already an angry hornet.

Do you have paper wasps in Canada?   Try an experiment , mess with a nest just a little not enough to kill any , then lets see if they are forgiveing.

sirs

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Re: This sums it all up real well
« Reply #129 on: December 08, 2006, 02:31:40 AM »
<<That REALITY also included that nearly everyone believed he did (have WMD).>>

No, Bush did not say that "nearly everyone believed." 

I never said Bush said that.  That's your current re-write.  I said nearly everyone said that.  Shall I again post that laundry list of folks, Dems, European leaders, etc., who believed so, and SAID so?
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: This sums it all up real well
« Reply #130 on: December 08, 2006, 08:53:46 AM »
Quote
Iraq has been shown to have had both direct and indirect connections with terrorists, including AlQeada.  Saddam did have WMD.  The potential for Terrorists getting their hands on such WMD is precisely the threat Bush was referring to

I don't think it really matters whether Bush lied or not. Who cares? It won't change the reality of the present situation. My point was not to play a game, but to show how illogical that path of reasoning was to support it as cassus belli for a war against Iraq.

You are correct though, there are (were) far better arguments against the invasion and the fact that it did not amount to a just war.
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Re: This sums it all up real well
« Reply #131 on: December 08, 2006, 11:33:18 AM »
<<That REALITY also included that nearly everyone believed he did (have WMD).>>

No, Bush did not say that "nearly everyone believed." 

I never said Bush said that.  That's your current re-write.  I said nearly everyone said that.  Shall I again post that laundry list of folks, Dems, European leaders, etc., who believed so, and SAID so?

Of all the stupid , inane and , yes , insane reasons for supporting Bush lying US into war, this takes the cake. As your mother used to say, if nearly everyone believed said you could fly would you jump off the roof. (And do observe that THEY did NOT ( except for our dependent lackey ad co-conspiritar , Britain, jump off.)

Besides , the Admin , chose what to "believe" so they not only lied to US. they lied to themselves which is the insane part.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/23/60minutes/printable1534829.shtml
 
And besides, Big Dick said they would have invaded anyway:
Even some of your ilk realize this now.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/hornberger/hornberger106.html


Amianthus

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Re: This sums it all up real well
« Reply #132 on: December 08, 2006, 11:43:32 AM »
And do observe that THEY did NOT ( except for our dependent lackey ad co-conspiritar , Britain, jump off.)

The following countries contributed troops to the current Iraq War:

  • United States
  • United Kingdom
  • South Korea
  • Poland
  • Australia
  • Italy
  • Ukraine
  • Netherlands
  • Spain
  • Romania
  • Japan
  • Denmark
  • Georgia
  • Bulgaria
  • Thailand
  • El Salvador
  • Honduras
  • Dominican Republic
  • Czech Republic
  • Hungary
  • Nicaragua
  • Singapore
  • Fiji
  • Azerbaijan
  • Norway
  • Latvia
  • Mongolia
  • Portugal
  • Albania
  • Slovakia
  • New Zealand
  • Philippines
  • Lithuania
  • Armenia
  • Tonga
  • Bosnia and Herzegovina
  • Estonia
  • Republic of Macedonia
  • Kazakhstan
  • Moldova
  • Iceland
  • Canada
« Last Edit: December 08, 2006, 11:45:22 AM by Amianthus »
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Michael Tee

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Re: This sums it all up real well
« Reply #133 on: December 08, 2006, 12:19:47 PM »
"As I recall, the U.S. had no trouble finding out where the Libyan attack came from."

[][][][][][][][][][][][][]
<<You recall wrongly , it {tracing the attack back to Libya] was very difficult and could have been with a little less luck futile.>.

The point is, they found out eventually and in just a few years.  No big deal.  Had the attack been conducted with WMD, they would have obviously put a hell of a lot more effort into it and found out a lot sooner.  For Saddam Hussein the obvious lesson is, "They'll find out.  Period."  When the stakes are (a) inflicting sustainable damage on a nation of 300,000,000 that can survive virtually anything anyway and (b) nuclear anihilation of oneself and one's own country, the choice is pretty obvious.  When the person choosing has never shown ANY inclination to take on the USA and in fact has avoided all previous chances for combat with it, your usual bullshit "Well, sure it's crazy but he's a madman" just won't wash.  The "madman" who doesn't look like a madman any more than any other ruthless dictator was NOT likely to attack the U.S.A.   In fact it's overwhelmingly more likely that Bush & Co. were simply lying about their absurd claim to be living in fear of Saddam Hussein.

<<Saddam might have had better luck , but the real point is whether he might even try, I use Quaddiffi not as a model of Saddam exactly but as a demonstration that the attempt is not actually "improbable".>>

Well, in that case you've clearly chosen the wrong example to make your demonstration with.  Qaddafi did NOT attack the U.S. with WMD (which of course would have guaranteed total anihilation in the near future) and did NOT get away with his attempts to cover his tracks.  But don't feel too bad about choosing the wrong example, because there is no right example - - there is no case in recorded history of the U.S. being covertly attacked with WMD by anybody, and for obvious reasons:  you can't find anybody crazy and stupid enough to try it.  Such "threats" exist nowhere on earth but in the sick imaginations of right-wing screwballs.


<<Whether Saddam as an insect might never sting ignores that Saddam was already very aggreved with us , he was already an angry hornet.>.

No, I'd say he was just a Middle East dictator who pissed off a lot of people and had the misfortune to be living atop a huge reservoir of oil that the U.S.A. desired to secure against future scarcities.  This "angry hornet" stuff is such preposterous bullshit I am almost at a loss of words in dealing with it.  Do you honestly believe that  a childish metaphor like that relieves you of the responsibility to (a) recognize that he is a thinking human being (b) a calculating, ruthless dictator (c) who has NEVER confronted the U.S. militarily (d) who sought and received US greenlighting even for the invasion of tiny Kuwait?  Where in any of this reality is the slightest justification for your "angry hornet" metaphor?  What kind of moron did you think would actually be persuaded by it?  Would think, "Yeah, well that's how an angry hornet acts, plane says Saddam is like an angry hornet, therefore that's what Saddam would do."

This comes back to my comments on sirs: the total inability to think critically, to ask questions, leads to the unthinking acceptance of ridiculous bullshit as if it were scientifically established truth:  angry hornet -> Saddam Hussein -> attack on USA with WMD.  How can you possibly take this bullshit seriously?

I really think the tragedy in America is that democratic rights have been extended to a nation largely incapable of critical thought and therefore at the mercy of unscrupulous demagogues who can peddle their bullshit to an  audience of credulous individuals without the skills necessary to evaluate it.

<<Do you have paper wasps in Canada?   Try an experiment , mess with a nest just a little not enough to kill any , then lets see if they are forgiveing.>>

Yeah, that's smart.  We could call the nest "Iraq" and we could call the guy who's dumb enough to fuck with the nest "last week's casualty count from Iraq" and we could call the guy who told the dumb prick to fuck with the nest "George W. Bush."

Michael Tee

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Re: This sums it all up real well
« Reply #134 on: December 08, 2006, 12:28:32 PM »
Canada did not contribute any troops to the Iraq war and I don't know how they got on that list.  Most of the other countries on the list made minimal or purely symbolic contributions, some have already realized their mistake and pulled out, others are planning to pull out in the New Year.  Of those who contributed, no one will ever know their real motivation but it's reasonable to assume that bribery and threats from the U.S.A. played a large role in their decisions.