Author Topic: TSA --> TYJA?  (Read 10239 times)

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sirs

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TSA --> TYJA?
« on: November 24, 2010, 12:47:49 AM »
Touch Your Junk Administration

Seriously though, at what level of outrage do things need to get before the powder keg is lit?  Not in some gun violence, as the powder keg is rhetorical.

In this country we have a 4th amendent.  In this country we have the presumption of innocent until proven guilty.  Why then are so many people pulled and groped and largely handled in such a way that it would be sexual harrassment almost anywhere else.  Is it any wonder there's currently such an outrage at the level of fondling that's legally being allowed to be gotten away with?

So just go thru the scanners, right?  Yea, that's an option.  It almost seems as if its being a forced option, to have your entire body imaged in a pretty blatant black & white image, for all manner of TSA eyes to see, laugh at, ridicule, if not save to share another time.  And anyone think who might actually have a vested interest in the scanning machine production.  I bet there are some politicians that have investments in companies that make these types of machines.  And if they become mandated, is that not a serious conflict of interest, if politicians with such investments are pushing for these scanners??

« Last Edit: November 24, 2010, 04:25:04 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: TSA --> TSG?
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2010, 02:42:11 AM »
If it is the best alternative then it is the way we should do it.

What is the better choice than to have carefull examination of passengers and luggage?

Should we just accept a certain level of loss as acceptable?

If I have an unpleasant experience with being prodded on my way to a flight I am going to curse at Osama Bin Laden who really bears blame , not the poor sod hired to attempt to improve my safety.

sirs

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Re: TSA --> TSG?
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2010, 03:42:12 AM »
If it is the best alternative then it is the way we should do it.

How is it the "best alternative"?  What happened to the 4th amendment?  Shall we forgo the 1st and 2nd just as easily?


What is the better choice than to have carefull examination of passengers and luggage?

That's just it, we're not.  We're being uber PC by manhandling everyone, for fear of focusing on much more likely threats.  We're not under attack from 8year old caucasion boys.  We're not under attack ny 60+year old caucasion women with prosthectic breasts or knee replacements.  It's beyond rediculous to mandate this grotesque assault on the 4th amendment, to supposedly provide more airline security?


Should we just accept a certain level of loss as acceptable?

No....not constitutional loss.  Not in my book


"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

kimba1

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Re: TSA --> TSG?
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2010, 10:06:54 AM »
you mean terrorist are too ethical to use non-middle eastern people to carry stuff on the plane. to say to a 8year old boy "hey kid hold this toy"

or new middle eastern nurse switch a plastic body part.

those scene I don`t if it has happened, but i do recall a irish girl going to isreal who got stop and had explosives on her .


Christians4LessGvt

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Re: TSA --> TSG?
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2010, 11:35:47 AM »
Flying is not a right, it is optional.




PETN: The explosive that airport security is targeting

Full-body scans and aggressive pat-downs now under scrutiny are designed
to seek out the explosive powder that was used in several failed terrorist
bombings recently, officials say.


By Brian Bennett, Tribune Washington Bureau
 
November 24, 2010

New airport security procedures that have stirred the emotions of air travelers ? full-body scans and aggressive pat-downs ? were largely designed to detect an explosive powder called PETN, which has been a staple of Al Qaeda bomb makers for nearly a decade.

It was PETN that was molded into the sole of Richard Reid's black high-top sneaker when he walked onto American Airlines Flight 63 bound for Miami in December 2001.

It was PETN that was sewn into the underwear of Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, authorities say, when he boarded Northwest Airlines Flight 253 for Detroit on Christmas Day 2009.

And it was PETN that suspected Al Qaeda operatives in Yemen packed inside computer printer cartridges that were shipped Oct. 28, intending to blow up planes en route to Chicago.

None of the plots succeeded in taking down an aircraft, but top U.S. officials are concerned about fresh indications that Al Qaeda remains determined to get PETN on airplanes by trying to exploit vulnerabilities in passenger and cargo screening.

Not only has the terrorist network acknowledged its role in bomb plots, it is also sharing what it knows about building bombs on the Web and elsewhere.

PETN, or pentaerythritol tetranitrate, presents some vexing problems for security experts. A powder about the consistency of fine popcorn salt, it will not trigger an alarm on a metal detector. Because of its more stable molecules, PETN gives off less vapor, making it more difficult to detect by bomb-sniffing dogs and the trace swabs used by the Transportation Security Administration.

PETN's stability makes it easy to hide and easily transformed. When mixed with rubber cement or putty, it becomes a rudimentary plastic explosive ? a baseball-sized amount can blow a hole in an airplane fuselage.

"PETN is hard to detect and lends itself to being concealed," said an intelligence official who was not authorized to speak on the record. "It packs a punch."

One way to detect PETN is through its detonator, which typically uses materials that are easier to trace. Reid's shoe bomb combined PETN with a volatile explosive accelerant called TATP that can be made from dime-store nail polish and hydrogen peroxide. The Yemen printer cartridge bombs placed the PETN around small homemade blasting caps containing the chemical lead azide.

The fact that PETN has been the common denominator in all of the bombs is a major reason why the TSA is unlikely to yield substantially in its search for practical ways to prevent the deadly powder from making it aboard a plane.

The new aggressive pat-downs and the increased use of full-body scanners ? there are more than 400 machines in 69 U.S. airports ? were a direct response to last year's alleged bombing attempt on Christmas Day, when Abdulmutallab passed through screening with 80 grams of PETN, authorities say.

Some passengers have objected to the enhanced screening as an invasion of privacy, though several polls show air travelers consider safety far more important.

"I know people want to bomb us," TSA chief John Pistole told reporters Monday. Pistole isn't just worried about terrorists in Yemen. He said he is particularly concerned that home-grown terrorists might "get ahold of a PETN device."

PETN can be made in a rudimentary lab or salvaged from old munitions. It can scraped from old bombs or stripped out of detonator cord, a fast-burning fuse about the diameter of a clothesline that is commonly used in road construction and mining. The amount of PETN in 5 feet of detonator cord has enough explosive power to buckle the roof of a car.

Smuggling explosives onto airplanes is a vulnerability that the TSA has known about since 2005, when covert testing teams run by the Department of Homeland Security inspector general were able to penetrate TSA airport security with explosive-like test devices, Pistole said.

The best technological weapons that the TSA has now are body scans of passengers and X-rays of cargo and baggage. But the scanners can't see anything hidden inside body cavities, and their effectiveness relies on operators identifying something unusual.

The scanners are "just anomaly detectors. Someone has to notice, has to have some expertise," said former Homeland Security Inspector General Clark Kent Ervin, who managed covert testing teams in 2003 and 2004 that were able to get guns, knives and explosives through TSA screening.

There are new techniques available for cargo, baggage and passenger screening that can detect individual explosive molecules using mass spectrometry, a technology that would be better at identifying PETN than the swab machines in use by the TSA.

"There is no question that the technology now deployed can't do it," Ervin said.

Even technology can only detect so much. The printer cartridge bombs from Yemen were sealed in plastic and cleaned with solvents to remove PETN molecules. The packages were discovered because of a tip from Saudi intelligence services.

Frank Cilluffo, director of the Homeland Security Policy Institute at George Washington University, said security screening needed to be less predictable, "so Al Qaeda and our [other] adversaries can't simply game the system."

The TSA also should invest in better human intelligence and institute a method of questioning passengers that Israel uses at airport checkpoints, said Edward Luttwak, an expert on security strategy and a senior advisor at the Center for Strategic and International Studies.

In recent discussions with members of the security services in Israel, Luttwak found "general puzzlement about TSA's enthusiasm for these machines."

The TSA's plan to spend hundreds of millions of dollars deploying more than 1,000 full-body scanners by the end of 2011 "is a syndrome of having no budget limits and maybe aggressive salesmanship," Luttwak said.

Israeli screeners, he added, are not looking for people who fit a physical profile, but a behavioral profile of avoidance and inconsistency. In Luttwak's view, it is easier for terrorists to design a bomb that can get past a screening regime than it is to find someone who is both a good actor and willing to be a suicide bomber.

A TSA program to identify suspicious behavior in search lines has deployed about 3,000 agents in more than 160 U.S. airports. Officers are trained to identify suspicious facial expressions and body language by walking up and down the line, initiating conversations and pulling passengers for additional screening.

In a glossy, color magazine released this week by Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, the Yemeni-based group vowed to continue using PETN. The magazine, written in English, included photos and a detailed description of how the printer cartridge bombs were made and packaged to avoid detection by bomb-sniffing dogs.

The authors encouraged copycat attacks: "Do you think that our research will only be used by Al Qaeda of the Arabian Peninsula and won't be shared with other mujahidin?"

The headline on the magazine was simply "$4,200" ? the amount the group says it spent to build and ship the bombs.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-petn-20101124,0,4507183,full.story
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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: TSA --> TSG?
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2010, 12:11:05 PM »
Will all those who prefer being blown up at 30,000 feet to having some bored TSA guy check out their bods for 20 seconds please raise their hand.

This is reaching a degree of paranoia similar to some neurotic mother worrying about what the ER doctors might think of her son's dirty or torn underwear.

No one CARES about your junk. It is not special to any TSA inspectors who have just seen 300 others just like it.

When you get down to it, it is no more a big deal than your kittycat's asshole.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: TSA --> TSG?
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2010, 12:41:25 PM »
you mean terrorist are too ethical to use non-middle eastern people to carry stuff on the plane. to say to a 8year old boy "hey kid hold this toy"

And your example of this happening will be.................?

Kinds of reminds me of the movie 'A christmas story", where the mom layers her child in so many clothes, that when he falls down, he can't get up, because he can barely move.  A TSA agent can simply ask, "So son, where did you get that cool toy?  Mom, did you buy your son that toy?"  And not one hand touches either the child or the Mom


those scene I don`t if it has happened, but i do recall a irish girl going to isreal who got stop and had explosives on her .

Key word, was stopped.  What prompted her to be stopped?  This isn't about profiling, this is about intelligence and common sense.  If someone is acting strange or out of the ordinary, you focus some attention.  If they have 1 way tickets with no luggage, you focus attention.  If they have passports that take them thru areas of terrorist activity, you focus attention.  You don't grope every other person, regardless of age or ethnicity, for fear you may be labeled a racial profiler
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

R.R.

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Re: TSA --> TSG?
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2010, 12:54:34 PM »
Quote
No one CARES about your junk. It is not special to any TSA inspectors who have just seen 300 others just like it.

Nobody should be looking at anybody's junk. This is fucking ridiculous.

sirs

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Re: TSA --> TSG?
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2010, 01:18:56 PM »
It kinda figures Xo would have no problem with the trampling of the 4th amendment.  His disdain of the Constitution is pretty, dare I say, obvious
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

R.R.

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Re: TSA --> TSG?
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2010, 01:46:47 PM »
XO has zero credibility. If this were happening under Bush, he would be going ballistic just like he did over the patriot act and the terrorist surveillance program. Now he supports people having their junk touched and looked at because Obama approved it. It's sickening.

Obama should shut the machines down immediately, especially since he would never subject his own family to the x-ray machines or to the groping. I hope somebody does sue the government on 4th amendment grounds to shut these machines down.

sirs

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Re: TSA --> TSG?
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2010, 02:03:20 PM »
XO has zero credibility. If this were happening under Bush, he would be going ballistic just like he did over the patriot act and the terrorist surveillance program. Now he supports people having their junk touched and looked at because Obama approved it. It's sickening.

Boy, ain't that the truth.  Recall all the vitriole Bush got with the signing of the Patriot Act?, Wiretapping? Rendition? Gitmo?  Notice the deafening silence, currently?


"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: TSA --> TSG?
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2010, 02:05:44 PM »
It is indeed rare....but I pretty much agree with XO on this.

Pretty much the only way you get patted down is rufuse the body scan.

Flying is not a right, it is a choice.

You dont like the rules....ride the freaking bus!

We are at war with a ruthless enemy...they are trying to sneek
explosives in underwear onto planes that kill you.

The TSA employees are just following their orders.
Dont get mad at them.
They are trying to keep you alive.

How do you propose we make sure that doesnt happen this weekend?

Sure sure Israel....but what about this weekend?
And Israel does not have 40,000 flights a day.

Given the choice of being searched or the video below...what do you choose?

Exploding Plane Ruptured Fuselage

« Last Edit: November 24, 2010, 02:11:40 PM by ChristiansUnited4LessGvt »
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

sirs

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Re: TSA --> TSG?
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2010, 02:24:35 PM »
It is indeed rare....but I pretty much agree with XO on this.

Pretty much the only way you get patted down is rufuse the body scan.  Flying is not a right, it is a choice.

And that's where we'd disagree.  Traveling, where ever you wish in this country, is a right.  You still have to pay for it, but your paying for someone to "drive you"  You can chose to drive yourself, but by car it may take a lot longer, and without an appropriate aviator's license, you'll have to pay for some pilot to drive you.  But traveling itself is absolutely a right in this country

So, would you at least advocate that all politicians disclose all investments into companies that make/produce such scanners.  I hear that John Kerry is set to rake in millions


You dont like the rules....ride the freaking bus!  

Have to pay someone for that too.  And from what I hear, scanners are intended to go there as well, not to mention train stations.  Putting aside for the moment the assault on the 4th amendment to the Constitution, we can't rely on "technology" Cu4.  We had technology in place on 911, and 3000+ people were murdered

The TSA employees are just following their orders.
Dont get mad at them.

I'm not.....I'm livid at this adminstration


How do you propose we make sure that doesnt happen this weekend?

Common sense.....look for the unusal....look for things out of the ordinary....ask questions of those in line.  for those that don't want to cooperate, THEY can be led thru the sexual harrassment gauntlet or John Kerry's Investment bonanza

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: TSA --> TSG?
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2010, 02:59:13 PM »
Travel is a right, but certainly not the manner of travel.
Try making minimum wage & calling United Airlines for a last minute RT Cali to NY
Tell them you don't have the money, but have "the right to travel".
Travel by airplane is a choice not a right.
Claiming a "right to travel" has ZERO to do with the regulations associated with
flying on airlines when we are at war.

No one claims what the TSA is doing is all we need to do or 100% effective
but almost nothing in life is 100% effective
the stakes are EXTREMELY high
if an IslamoNazi gets the explosives on a plane
there will be lots of arms, legs, and heads to try and match up to one another

sure if corruption exist about the purchase of the machines
enforce the law, throw the book at them
but dont let the distraction allow a plane to blow up

is it any accident that both Richard Reid "the shoe-bomber" and
Umar Farouk Abdulmutallabm "the underwear bomber" both were able
to get on planes outside the United States and were not subject to TSA inspection
« Last Edit: November 24, 2010, 03:09:23 PM by ChristiansUnited4LessGvt »
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

R.R.

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Re: TSA --> TSG?
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2010, 03:05:07 PM »
Quote
Boy, ain't that the truth.  Recall all the vitriole Bush got with the signing of the Patriot Act?, Wiretapping? Rendition? Gitmo?  Notice the deafening silence, currently?

I'm seeing a pattern here. Anything that is designed to go after an actual terrorist is bad in XO's tiny mind. But anything that would subject innocent, law abiding citizens to groping and treat them like criminals is good.

Thanks for the tip on Kerry. It turns out he and his wife own $1 million worth of stock in the company that is producing these x-ray machines. How convenient. I wonder how he knew they would be getting put into airports?