ya wanna see some stoooopid?

[kimba1]

As long as strict policy are on place to insure legal americans gets protrections in case error arises in thier id's

Like that veteran who was declared dead four times and was requested to refund vet benefits because he's dead

[sirs]

which is then the more conservative approach, to rhetorically focus on??

i'm not 100% sure i understand your question

ok, well, since you state there's no chance your ID plan would pass, yet your criticising my support of enforcing existing law as the key to fixing our illegal immigration is, as you say, unrealistic, then we're both talking about unrealisic approaches.  So, with that conceded which is the notion that is more founded in conservative philosophy:

- Enforce existing laws, punish those who break our laws
or
- Initiate a new government program, complete with its own new set of employess, bureacracy, and likely a whole new dept, akin to Homeland security, that requires a whole new set of taxes to pay for it all

Better understanding?

[Christians4LessGvt]

not really
there would basically be no big new gvt layer under my plan
no new agencies, no new Homeland Security....
just a new law....
a driver's license or Gvt ID would include citizenship status...just like a passport
citizenship would be required to secure medical, utilities, bank loans, car tags, housing, jobs
all the people processing those requests currently would still do so
i guess you support the current layers of huge gvt agencies that deal with illegals
but many it not all of those agencies would be done away with or greatly reduced w/my plan
because you wouldnt need them anymore because there would be hardly any illegals
so yeah i think unknowingly you support bigger gvt by supporting existing law and the huge bureacracy that deals with it thats not working

[sirs]

I'm afraid, yes really, especially since my version requires NO additional government entity, agency, mechanisms, or bureacracy, and as you've conceded is just as unrealistic as your version

[Christians4LessGvt]

SIRS.....have you seen this?

Shows what will happen if we don't stop importing the world's poor!

IMMIGRATION BY THE NUMBERS - PART ONE

[sirs]

And as you have conceded, your proposal of another level of Government, in trying to deal with it, has no chance in passing.  So, what are we arguing about?

[Christians4LessGvt]

And as you have conceded, your proposal of another level of Government, in trying to deal with it, has no chance in passing.  So, what are we arguing about?

SIRS....I know it's sometimes hard to see intentions on the internet,
but we are not argiung....I had moved on and just wanted
you to see this since we were on the topic of immigration.

btw: my propasal would not add another level of gvt,
it would actually greatly reduce gvt overall
but you're correct it would not pass because it would work!
the last thing the sabatogers of this great country want
is something that would halt their destructice plans.

[sirs]

It's kinda simple mathematics, IMHO.  ANY addition to the status quo is an ADDITION, as in more Government.  My notion, which you've passed on as the status quo, which it isn't, its merely the results of Government NOT doing what they're mandated to do, adds nothing.  You are ADDING, which you can opine is "very little", but without removing something in the process, is ADDING to an already ginormous Government bureaucracy

So, while we can both be singing the same chorus on how detrimental ILLEGAL immigration (because we know there are a plethora of leftists who'll try to mutate our positions as being supposedly against immigration in general) is to this country, our unrealistic approaches are apparently very different, in that one (mine), supports a more narrow, enforce, enforce, enforce, using current law and current methods, while yours apparently is focusing on more bureaucracy and the ever famous saying "show me your papers" approach.  And will STILL require a level of enforcement that we currently don't have

[Christians4LessGvt]

"it's kinda simple mathematics, IMHO"

Exactly...it really is.

"ANY addition to the status quo is an ADDITION, as in more Government"

Thats like saying if a company hires a cost cutter that slashes the budget
and slashes costs is "an addition" as in a new salary and thus enlarges
the losses.

You are ADDING, which you can opine is "very little", but without removing something in the process, is ADDING to an already ginormous Government bureaucracy

I am "adding" as in a cost cutter at an outta control company that would quickly
reduce the overall size of gvt and illegal immigrants....your way leaves many of the
incentives in place that attracts illegals and thus they would still come here to be
possibly caught.

"approaches are apparently very different, in that one (mine), supports a more narrow, enforce, enforce, enforce, using current law and current methods,

And that vast enforce, enforce, enforce has huge costs that would not be
needed in my solution. You would need zero "raids" in my solution,
you would hardly even need a border patrol except for a very small force.

while yours apparently is focusing on more bureaucracy

Absolutely incorrect.

There would be almost zero new bureacracy and no need for enforcement.
It would be like the way the gvt collects taxes.
They came up with a law for companies to withold
so they dont have to chase down every taxpayer.
Same would be with my plan.
Gvt would not need to grow to make this plan work.
My way would vastly reduce the size of gvt and save the
American Taxpayer billions....because it would work.

Thats the difference.....your way "enforce current law"
requires vast amount of gvt to enforce, police, deport, ect
My way the illegals would "deport themselves".
They wont stay here and starve.

[sirs]

C...How are you going to manage this new technology, track who doesn't and doesn't use the cards right, monitor how the cards are being used and by whom, upgrade the technology, enforce upon those who don't comply, if not for MORE government??

In this unrealistic proposal, what are you "cutting" to allow an addition of this card program

[Christians4LessGvt]

C...How are you going to manage this new technology, and track what
municipalities, states, law enforcement agencies are enforcing existing law?

SIRS how are you going to manage all the new technology needed to enforce existing
law if not for more government??

track who doesn't and doesn't use the cards right, monitor how the cards are being
used and by whom, upgrade the technology, enforce upon those who don't comply,
if not for MORE government??

SIRS how are you going to track what municipalities, states,
law enforcement agencies are enforcing existing law if not for more
government??

In this unrealistic proposal, what are you "cutting" to allow an addition of this card program

As soon as my simple low cost solution is implemented there would be a mass exodus of illegals
at basically no cost to the US taxpayer. They would leave without jobs, shelter, medicine, and utilities.
Under your plan expensive law apprehension would be needed, as well as deportment court
proceedings, and the expensive actual deportment or expensive imprisonment for violators that refuse to leave.

Under my plan there is no expensive costs to getting them actually from "Point A to Point B".
The illegals leave on their own because of denial of basic neccessaties of life.
They go home on their own instead of you catching them , judicating them, & then packing & shipping them.

[sirs]

C...I have to chuckle a little....all my means of enforcement already exist...ergo, NO ADDITIONAL Government.  The Police, INS, DA's, etc....are all sworn to uphold & enforce existing law...ergo NO ADDITIONAL Government.  The techology currently is present, that they all use...ergo NO ADDITIONAL Government

I could go on, but the point is, while I admire the passion you have for this new program, and the desire to "do something", far too often we rely on Government to "do something", and far more often than that, the something is generally far worse.  All well intended as you are, more government sure isn't the answer to our illegal immigration problem

[Christians4LessGvt]

All well intended as you are, more government sure isn't the answer to our illegal immigration problem

Again we can agree to disagree because there is no doubt in
my mind we end up over time with far more gvt with your "solution".

[Xavier_Onassis]

More effective government is the answer, probably the only answer, to this problem.

Abolish the Congressional barber shop, then spend the money on immigration reform.

[sirs]

All well intended as you are, more government sure isn't the answer to our illegal immigration problem

Again we can agree to disagree because there is no doubt in
my mind we end up over time with far more gvt with your "solution".

And as I've demonstrated, pretty much the same conclusion regarding your well intentioned solution, I'm afraid