Author Topic: One of the reasons Assad is under attack and probably a goner!  (Read 1497 times)

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Christians4LessGvt

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Re: One of the reasons Assad is under attack and probably a goner!
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2012, 10:26:01 PM »
The Russians are not enemies of the US. The Chinese are not enemies of the US, either.

Enemies have nukes pointed at you
Both the Chinese and the Russians have nukes pointed at us.
The Brits and the French do not have nukes pointed at us.
Hopefully one day they (Russia and China) be will become free and democratic.
Free enterprise, capitalist, democracies dont point nukes at each other or go to war against each other.
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Plane

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Re: One of the reasons Assad is under attack and probably a goner!
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2012, 12:49:53 AM »
I don't know who Syrians would ever consider impartial, I accept that the US isn't , but who is?

When Assad leaves , I wouldn't expect the Syrians to want Chineese or Russian election monitors , all their near neighbors have territory or water demand interest, distant nations might not want to get this on them.

Who is trustworthy is a better question than who is disinterested.

I expect Turkey to take a leading role , and the US to defer.

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: One of the reasons Assad is under attack and probably a goner!
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2012, 08:10:55 AM »
When Assad leaves , I wouldn't expect the Syrians to want Chineese or Russian election monitors ,

it would probably be UN monitors,
but the UN can't prevent widespread outside influences.
and there will be massive outside influence
too much is at stake in the "chess game" for there not to be
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: One of the reasons Assad is under attack and probably a goner!
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2012, 10:29:02 AM »


Meshing realism and idealism in Middle East

By Henry A. Kissinger,

August 3, 2012

The Arab Spring is often celebrated by reciting the roll call of overthrown autocrats. But revolutions, in the end, will be judged primarily by what they build, not what they destroy. And in this respect, a year of revolution has refashioned exhilaration into paradox.

The United States applauded the demonstrations in Egypt's Tahrir Square. Blaming itself for too protracted an association with an undemocratic leader, it urged Hosni Mubarak to step down. But once he did so, the original exultant demonstrators have not turned out to be the heirs. Instead, Islamists with no record of democracy and a history of hostility to the West have been elected to a presidencythey had pledged not to seek. They are opposed by the military, which had buttressed the previous regime. The secular democratic element has been marginalized. Where do we go from here?

Contrary to recent conventional wisdom, at no point was the internal structure of Egypt the United States's to determine. For millennia, monarchs and military autocrats have held sway. In the 1970s, Egyptian President Anwar Sadat abandoned the Soviet alliance forged by Gamal Abdel Nasser's military regime 20 years earlier. Sadat made peace with Israel, with the United States acting as mediator. These events helped to transform the Cold War. They reflected a hard-headed assessment by all parties of the relation of forces that emerged from the 1973 Arab-Israeli war. Sadat was assassinated in 1981 by Islamist extremists, whose continued terrorism was used by his successor, Mubarak, as justification for prolonged emergency powers.

Throughout, Egypt and its government were facts of international life; American administrations of both parties, faced with the Cold War and looming turmoil in the region, judged it crucial to work with a major Arab country willing to take risks for regional peace. As Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton affirmed in her recent Cairo press conference, "We worked with the government of the country at the time."

At what point, faced first with Soviet adventurism and then the consequences of the Soviet Union's disintegration, did the United States have an option to intervene directly in the region's domestic politics? From Nixon through Clinton, American presidents judged the risks of such a course to outweigh its benefits. The George W. Bush administration did urge Mubarak to permit multiparty elections and criticized his suppression of dissent, and President Obama affirmed a similar direction early in his administration. U.S. foreign policy is neither the cause of, nor the solution to, all shortcomings in other countries "domestic governance" especially in the Middle East.

With a constitution yet to be drafted, the function of key institutions in contention between the Muslim Brotherhood and the military, and an electorate closely divided between dramatically different visions of their country's future, Egypt's revolution is far from its end. U.S. policy is torn between competing imperatives. The Muslim Brotherhood has emerged by electoral processes called for by democratic values, while the military stands for outcomes that are closer to the the U.S. concept of international security (and possibly of domestic pluralism). If the United States erred in the Cold War period by excessive emphasis on the security element, it now runs the risk of confusing sectarian populism with democracy.

Amid these tremors, the debate regarding the determinants of U.S. foreign policy is reigniting. Realists judge the events from the perspective of security strategy; idealists see them as an opportunity to promote democracy. But the choice is not between the strategic and the idealistic. If we cannot combine both elements, we will achieve neither.

In that context we must face, and not fudge, the following questions: Do we stand aloof from these internal processes, or do we try to shape them? Do we back one of the contestants or concentrate on advocating electoral procedures (knowing that this may guarantee a strategically repugnant result)? Can our commitment to democracy avoid leading to a sectarian absolutism based on managed plebiscites and one-party rule?

In Egypt, backing a military council composed mostly of Mubarak associates offends democratic sensibilities. Postulating shared values with an explicitly Islamist party, which for generations has advocated an anti-Western course for the entire region, substitutes hope for experience. Military regimes have proved fragile; ideologically driven organizations have used democratic institutions for undemocratic ends and to challenge regional order. We should be open to genuine moderation shown by ideological opponents. But we should not be reluctant to affirm our security interests. In this narrow passage, U.S. policy must navigate without deluding itself that the key players are waiting for our instructions.

In Syria, even more complex comparable dilemmas loom. (On one level, Syria contradicts the argument that the United States could have promoted a more democratic outcome in Egypt by withholding cooperative relations. U.S. aloofness surely did not moderate the Assad family's authoritarianism.)

In our public debate, the crisis in Syria is generally described as a struggle for democracy, and its culmination is presumed to be the removal of Bashar al-Assad. Neither attribute fits the essence of the problem. The real issue is a struggle for dominance between Assad?s Alawites, backed by many of the other Syrian minorities, and the Sunni majority.

Assad himself is an unlikely leader with a reputation for indecisiveness. Having settled in London as an ophthalmologist, a profession that usually does not attract the power-hungry, he was drafted into Syrian politics only after the death of his elder brother, the designated heir to their dominant father. The conflict in Syria is therefore likely to continue, probably even intensify, upon Assad's welcome and all but inevitable removal. With their front man gone, Assad's clan and the Alawite minority, dominant in Syria?s military, may consider themselves reduced to a struggle for physical survival.

Constructing a political alternative to the Assad regime will prove even more complex than the course in Egypt or the other Arab Spring countries, since the contending factions are more numerous and less clearly delineated, and their differences more intense. Without creative leadership to build an inclusive political order, a prospect not yet clearly in evidence among the combatants, Syria may break into component ethnic and sectarian entities, whose strife would then risk spreading by means of affiliated populations into neighboring countries.

On all sides of the Syrian conflict, the commitment of the belligerents to democratic values and alignment with Western interests is, at best, untested. Al-Qaeda has now entered the conflict, effectively on the side that the United States is being asked to join. In such circumstances, U.S. policymakers encounter a choice not between a "realistic" and an "idealistic" outcome but between competing imperfections, between considerations of strategy and of governance. We are stymied on Syria because we have a strategic interest in breaking the Assad clan's alliance with Iran, which we are reluctant to avow, and the moral objective of saving human lives, which we are unable to implement through the U.N. Security Council.

Since the Arab uprisings began, four governments have fallen, and several others have been seriously tested. The United States has felt obliged to respond to and occasionally to participate in this drama, but it has still not answered fundamental questions about its direction: Do we have a vision of what strategic equation in the region serves our and global interests? Or of the means to achieve them? How do we handle the economic assistance which may be the best, if not the only, means to influence the evolution?

The United States can and should assist on the long journey toward societies based on civil tolerance and individual rights. But it cannot do so effectively by casting every conflict entirely in ideological terms. Our efforts must also be placed within a framework of U.S. strategic interests, which should help define the extent and nature of our role. Progress toward a world order embracing participatory governance and international cooperation requires the fortitude to work through intermediate stages. It also requires that the various aspirants to a new order in the Middle East recognize that our contribution to their efforts will be measured by their compatibility with our interests and values. For this, the realism and idealism we now treat as incompatible need to be reconciled.

2012 Tribune Media Services

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/henry-kissinger-meshing-realism-and-idealism-in-syria-middle-east/2012/08/02/gJQAFkyHTX_print.html
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: One of the reasons Assad is under attack and probably a goner!
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2012, 11:56:50 AM »
    Syria is a sovereign nation, Texas is not. 


What is known as the United States was once part of the sovereign nation of Great Britain
until they decided to not be. Almost all nations were once part of "sovereign nations" until
they broke off. "Sovereign nations" are not set in stone, read a little history and you'll see.
==========================================================================\
Unlike you, I do not see Texas declaring its independence anytime soon. Texas was forced to join the US because it was totally bankrupt in 1845, according to the history I have read.

Syria is not likely to split into several countries or join with any of its neighbors, either. I would LIKE to annex Lebanon, but the French used the Christian minority to split it off, and it seems unlikely that this will happen, either.

In the case of Syria, Assad has made too many enemies now to pull it all together.
Syrians will decide one way or another, who is in charge of Syria, NOT some hotshot Dallas businessman.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: One of the reasons Assad is under attack and probably a goner!
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2012, 03:41:57 PM »
Texas was forced to join the US because it was totally bankrupt in 1845, according to the history I have read.

And now the opposite is true!
You liberals have bankrupted the United States with your nutty nannyism.
So the time is getting closer when i hope we tell your sorry asses GOODBYE!
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: One of the reasons Assad is under attack and probably a goner!
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2012, 03:46:47 PM »
Syria is not likely to split into several countries or join with any of its neighbors, either.

I'll lean towards Henry Kissinger thoughts....but thanks anyway.

Syrians will decide one way or another, who is in charge of Syria, NOT some hotshot Dallas businessman.

The Oligarchy that controls Obama will decide the fate of Syria!
Just like they did in Libya.
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: One of the reasons Assad is under attack and probably a goner!
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2012, 05:47:50 PM »
Has anyone determined the fate of Libya?

Libya will continue pumping oil and selling it. Probably more oil money will benefit the people of Libya, rather than one tyrannical leader.

 The Oligarchy does not control President Obama, that is why they are constantly attacking him.

Without Texas, the US will elect Democrat after Democrat, and Texans will learn to fear Mexico. Fine with me.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: One of the reasons Assad is under attack and probably a goner!
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2012, 07:00:41 PM »
Has anyone determined the fate of Libya?
Oh I'm quite sure it's been determined.
The West didn't do what they did for the fun of it.
Libya was no threat....Obama was ordered by the Oligarchy to replace Khadaffi.

Probably more oil money will benefit the people of Libya, rather than one tyrannical leader.
Non-sense naivety!
Libya wasn't as bad as most think under Khadaffi.
And you have no data showing it will improve.

Libya under Khadaffi was ranked higher by the United Nations Human Development Index than the following countries:

China
India
Brazil
Turkey
Lebanon
Thailand
Philippines
South Africa
Jordan
Jamaica
Peru
Honduras
Nicaragua
Morocco
Guatemala
AND SO MANY OTHER COUNTRIES!

http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/

The Oligarchy does not control President Obama

yeah sure....see chart below:



Without Texas, the US will elect Democrat after Democrat, and Texans will learn to fear Mexico. Fine with me.

frankly i'd hope after Tx left more democrats would get elected
to hasten the train-wreck that has happened in calif only encourging more states to leave
once most of the producers leave & only the tit suckers remain...your nanny state will collapse.

and yeah sure...we'd be shaking in our boots over Mexico!



« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 09:39:06 PM by Christians4LessGvt »
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: One of the reasons Assad is under attack and probably a goner!
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2012, 01:03:53 AM »
I agree that Turkey is likely to be seen as a valid neutral party to supervise Syrian elections.

Libya was a fairly wealthy country on a per capita basis, but the money mostly went to Qadaffi and his henchmen. I hardly think that the UN index you quote was anywhere near accurate.

Jet aircraft stupidly painted with the Texas flag are just a joke. Like you, you are also just a joke, along with your crap about how Jesus wants smaller government.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: One of the reasons Assad is under attack and probably a goner!
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2012, 04:00:50 PM »
I hardly think that the UN index you quote was anywhere near accurate.

Love it....love it....love it
making liberals take ridiculous stances to make their "ridiculous dots" connect
so now we see that the United Nations Human Development Index is invalid.
No data to back up the claim...
Just "I dont like what I see so it must be bogus"
"Hey dat dont fit my world view"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: One of the reasons Assad is under attack and probably a goner!
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2012, 06:21:35 PM »
Turkey has industry, Turkey produces most of its own food, Libya fits neither of these criteria, which seems to be based on GDP, dividing national income by the population.

China and India have large middle classes. So does South Africa. How can anyone claim that South Africa is less developed than Libya? That is just dumb.

I do not disagree with this because it comes from the UN, but because it seems to be simply simplistic, wrong, or both.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: One of the reasons Assad is under attack and probably a goner!
« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2012, 07:37:18 PM »
French Philosopher Bernard-Henri Levy:
"What Was Done in Libya Can Be Done in Syria"


http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/3513.htm
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: One of the reasons Assad is under attack and probably a goner!
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2012, 08:09:07 PM »
Turkey has industry, Turkey produces most of its own food, Libya fits neither of these criteria.

This is 2012....no 1812.
What does food production have to do with anything?
Japan does not produce much food nor does Saudi Arabia.
Iceland is #14 in the world, how much food production goes on there?

From 1977 onward, per capita income in Libya rose to more than US $11,000,
the fifth-highest in Africa.This was achieved without borrowing any foreign loans, keeping Libya debt-free. In addition, the country's literacy rate rose from 10% to 90%, life expectancy rose from 57 to 77 years, equal rights were established for women and black people, employment opportunities were established for migrant workers, and welfare systems were introduced that allowed access to free education, free healthcare, and financial assistance for housing. The Great Manmade River was also built to allow free access to fresh water across large parts of the country. In addition, financial support was provided for university scholarships and employment programs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libya#cite_note-60

The World Bank defines Libya as an 'Upper Middle Income Economy', along with only seven other African countries.[171] In the early 1980s, Libya was one of the wealthiest countries in the world; its GDP per capita was higher than that of developed countries such as Italy, Singapore, South Korea, Spain and New Zealand.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libya#cite_note-60

Libya consistently ranks as North Africa's top performing economies, with little debt, a healthy capital surplus, a relatively small, adaptable, and highly educated population, and carefully planned budget expenditures. Libya's economy grew above 7% in 2006, one of only 8 countries in Africa to buck the trend, meeting the desired aims of the UN Millennium Development goals as outlined in Africa Development Report 2007.
http://www.bi-me.com/main.php?id=10520&t=1&c=34&cg=4

China and India have large middle classes. So does South Africa.
How can anyone claim that South Africa is less developed than Libya?
That is just dumb.

China is still an extremely poor country.
I had a friend go there & he was shocked at the level of poverty outside the cities.
China is booming, but it is still an over-all very poor country.

I do not disagree with this because it comes from the UN,
but because it seems to be simply simplistic, wrong, or both.

So you think the United Nations Human Development Index (HDI), a respected comparative measure of life expectancy, literacy, education, standards of living, and quality of life for countries worldwide is "simply wrong". You think this is something the United Nations just throws together on a whim?

Take a look at the following link and see how very "unsimplistic" the HDI really is:

http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/hdi/
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: One of the reasons Assad is under attack and probably a goner!
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2012, 08:48:47 PM »
You respect anything that agrees with your twisted notions of reality. I have no obligation to agree with you, and I do not.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."