No wonder Obama has his college records sealed....he probably flunked Math!

[Xavier_Onassis]

The tax increase is teensy when it comes to paying off the government's bills, but huge when it is used to ostensibly create jobs.
That does not make sense.

[Plane]

The tax increase is teensy when it comes to paying off the government's bills, but huge when it is used to ostensibly create jobs.
That does not make sense.

So which is it?
Really what do you expect the benefit to amount to?

I never said it makes sense , that would be a lot to expect of a Democrat wouldn't it?

The tax revenue from an increase in rate , what do you expect it to be?

The resulting loss in employment , how large is tolerable ?

There is no way to know without trying that you wouldn't get negative numbers on both counts.

But there is no potential at all for a tax increase to improve employment numbers, that, if nothing elese, is certain.

President Obama is genuinely discounting his suporters having any motive or ability to compute.
I am not insulted by this , I am not a supporter of his.

[Xavier_Onassis]

There have been very prosperous periods of our history in which tax rates were a lot higher than anything that our President has suggested. A 4% tax hike on the very wealthy would have little or no impact on jobs, just as the current low rates have had little impact.

[Plane]

There have been very prosperous periods of our history in which tax rates were a lot higher than anything that our President has suggested. A 4% tax hike on the very wealthy would have little or no impact on jobs, just as the current low rates have had little impact.

"A 4% tax hike on the very wealthy would have little or no impact on jobs"
This seems very much like nonsense, if you take money out of the budgets that hire , how can it have anything less than a negative effect on hireing?
Looks like a direct relationship.

[BT]

Raising tax rates (ie letting the Bush cuts expire) on the rich, might not lower the opportunities for employment. Simply because the majority of taxation on the rich takes the form on taxes on capital gains, which is why the Romneys and the Buffetts pay at a lessor rate than their secretaries. It would have an effect on a lot middle class folks who derive their income from S Corporations which is a pass thru from their small businesses. And those folks are the ones who do the majority of hiring. So the tax the rich meme is really a redirection wrapped in class warfare because the targets of the increase really are not affected.

Those who see a need to raise taxes should allow the Bush tax cuts expire for all tiers for the equality!

[Plane]

Raising tax rates (ie letting the Bush cuts expire) on the rich, might not lower the opportunities for employment. Simply because the majority of taxation on the rich takes the form on taxes on capital gains, which is why the Romneys and the Buffetts pay at a lessor rate than their secretaries. It would have an effect on a lot middle class folks who derive their income from S Corporations which is a pass thru from their small businesses. And those folks are the ones who do the majority of hiring. So the tax the rich meme is really a redirection wrapped in class warfare because the targets of the increase really are not affected.

Those who see a need to raise taxes should allow the Bush tax cuts expire for all tiers for the equality!

Isn't that the opposite of helping?
No change in the income tax affects the capitol gains tax, you are severly in the apple orange marmalade there.
Every dime removed from the economy is a dime no longer availible for the economy to use , the government will put part of that back , but less than just leaving it in the economy would have done .

Capitol gains taxes being high discorages investment , and makes retirement more difficult, if we would cut the capitol gains taxes in half  why wouldn't that doubble the amount of small business start ups ? Wouldn't it also encourage selling houses at lower margins of profit?

Income taxes being high discourages work, what if we reduced all income taxes 2%, wouldn't that mean that all of the people on the margin of tax bracket creep would get a reprieve? Wouldn't many thousands find 2% more disposible income handy for upgrading their appliences and cars?

I really do not understand , what is magic about the government ? When they confiscate the money and then return it , at the best they delay its deployment, at the worst they really waste a lot of it.

I read a National Geographic article once that told of a cargo cult, giving a can full of coins to the prophet, the author watched as the cult members poured the coins from one bucket into another over and over as they blessed and sang over it.
  At the end they counted up , the number of coins were the same but their ownership had changed from the author to the cult.

  I thought it was a funny story at the time , but now I work for the government.

[Xavier_Onassis]

We would be better off letting all the Bush tax cuts disappear.

[BT]

Plane i think people conflate income tax with capital gains taxes. They are not the same. Thus Bufffett and Romney can get away with a 13% rate and their secretaries pay 25%. You are right - the issues are apples and oranges.

As far as raising income taxes, the only way i would be in favor of retiring the Bush Tax Cuts is if it affected all tiers. I just don't believe one group of people deserve better treatment than another group based on arbitrary feelings of a third party. If you really want to be fair, switch to a flat tax, preferably on consumption.

[Plane]

Plane i think people conflate income tax with capital gains taxes. They are not the same. Thus Bufffett and Romney can get away with a 13% rate and their secretaries pay 25%. You are right - the issues are apples and oranges.

........................................................................................

  Is this accidental?

   Are cynical people with no respect for the common wisdom conflating things they know are diffrent , confident that most of us are either too busy or too silly to catch them at it?

[BT]

Is this accidental?

of course not.

[BSB/Hero/Genius/MovieStar]

The facts are simple. The Bush tax cut hasn't created jobs. Any notion that keeping it will suddenly do so is balderdash. It's like the myth floating around that the working poor don't pay income tax. Of course they do, in the form of payroll withholding taxes.

The under-educated white southerners used to be anti-rich Democrats. Now they're Republicans, supporting the wealthy, and still getting the shaft from them. Goldwater, Nixon, and Reagan pulled the wool right over your eyes.   

BSB

[Plane]

  The justifacation for payroll withholding was Social Security.

   Untill Clinton era Social Security was a profit center, it made a surplus every year.

    Matter of fact it was during the Clinton Presidency that the baby boom generation made its peak earnings.

     During the Bush Presidency the Baby boom began to retire and the recipts from its tax began to decline.

       If the moneys collected for Social Security had been devoted to Social Security it might have been self supporting for generations more, but the mixing of the Social Security taxes into the general fund converted a good idea into a Ponzi scheme.

       If you were to subtract the taxes collected for Social Security from the Clinton "surplus" you would have the more ordinary deficet.

      This is why President Obama cannot merely turn back the clock and run an imitation of the Clinton economy, the Baby Boom is almost all retired and he cannot put them back to work at their peak earnings.

       The Clinton years , to me , represent missed oppurtunity.

[BT]

So now we have income, capital gains and payroll taxes conflated.No wonder the blue staters are confused when it comes to taxation.

[Plane]

So now we have income, capital gains and payroll taxes conflated.No wonder the blue staters are confused when it comes to taxation.

Yes they absolutely are.

Would it serve better to make the revenue streams less fungable?

[BT]

It certainly would make funds harder to raid.

Local government does have restrictions for co-mingling Enterprise Funds (Utilities, etc) with General Funds.