Need for change.

[Plane]

Then capitalism needs to be modified to serve all the people, just like the water in the city reservoir needs to be piped to all the people.

That only works when the water is infinite.

Lots of socialist experiments have exhausted themselves, Venezuela is right in the middle of crashing itself .

The socialism of Europe is mixed, Greece was running socialism on borrowed money , Germany limited socialism and had money to lend.

Baltimore has had straight Democratic administration since 67 , and the Statehouse almost the same. There is no small amount of socialism in this larger community where the biggest industry is working for the National Government.

    How badly Baltimore is run has little to do with how Republican Alabama has become in this same time period, but a direct comparison does allow one to contrast a state that has had improvement with a state that has declined.

[Xavier_Onassis]

The capitalist system runs on the demonstrably false assumption that natural resources and clean air and water are infinite.

Unlike natural resources, wealth can be increased.  Capitalism requires reform so that it works for the majority rather than only the investor class.

[Plane]

The capitalist system runs on the demonstrably false assumption that natural resources and clean air and water are infinite.

   This does not seem true in any respect, could you expand on the idea and point at an example?

    The value of a resource depends a lot on its scarcity and how difficult it is to harvest.

     Increasing recourses is the business of business , Oil is extracted better enough to halve its cost, Ivory piano keys become impractical, so an ivory like plastic is invented, there are many examples of resources being improved or replaced because the business that solves such a problem is greatly rewarded.

   DeBeers efforts to artificially increase the scarcity of diamonds is an important exception, This demonstrates the value of anti trust .

    Socialism, in its most mature form, is a stifling form of  monopoly. Having a single employer and producer of some necessary element is not a good idea when it is a big corporation or a centrally planned government, you get the same negative result.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Socialism does not require all the means of production to belong to the state. None of the Social democratic states in Europe require this. You are debating a straw man.

[Plane]

Socialism does not require all the means of production to belong to the state. None of the Social democratic states in Europe require this. You are debating a straw man.

  I wouldn't have called you that.

  Socialism comes in degrees, not every socialistic project jumps all the way into full blown cradle to grave control of everything at once.

     But once a socialistic trend starts doesn't it trend twards more, until there is enough to cause a problem?

[Xavier_Onassis]

Capitalism is a TOOL. Just as you cannot build everything with a hammer or fix everything with duct tape, Capitalism does not result in the successful development of a society.

Socialism is another tool. Like Capitalism, it can be useful to serve when competition does not work to make wages adequate for survival and prices of basic necessities affordable.

There are no purely Socialistic or purely Capitalistic societies, and if there were, they would not be sustainable.

It is a question of balance, done pragmatically.   

[Plane]

It is a question of balance, done pragmatically.

I like your point there.

[sirs]

Not to be a wet blanket, but the problem with the point however is that they are diametrically opposing economic forces.  Profit spurs growth & expansion, and motivates progress to make & do things better.  That can't exist with Socialism, since profits are pulled, and redistributed for some so-called "greater good".  I mean there's a whole lists of comparisons that demonstrate there can be no balance, since what you get is inadequate of both

[Xavier_Onassis]

That is stupid and ignorant. Capitalism and Socialism coexist in every stinking nation on this planet, except perhaps North Korea.
It is not a question of whether they can coexist, the question is the mix of the two, and it is pretty clear that a greater amount of socialism would benefit at least 95% of all Americans.

[sirs]

I never said they don't co-exist.  I clearly said they cancel out each other, which gives inadequate of both, Professor Ignorant.  And the more socialism = less freedom, which is diametrically opposite to what founded this country, and makes it great

[Xavier_Onassis]

They do NOT "cancel each other out". When everyone has access to good medical care, they are more productive and we all benefit. When the government builds roads and bridges with taxpayers' money, everyone benefits. When retired people have a sustainable income,  they live longer and contribute to the economy.

[sirs]

Yes, they do...since they require 2 seperate agendas, one that excels with profits and freedom, specifically at the individual level, the other that excels at redistribution (as in taking away profits) and greater central control

[Plane]

That is stupid and ignorant. Capitalism and Socialism coexist in every stinking nation on this planet, except perhaps North Korea.
It is not a question of whether they can coexist, the question is the mix of the two, and it is pretty clear that a greater amount of socialism would benefit at least 95% of all Americans.

  Oh no , our agreement is over.

   There is  a balance to strike, and obviously we are already far past the midpoint twards too much socialism.

    Unless the point is that we really are not taxed enough.

  Government has a reasonable cost, and a price that can't be paid is by definition too high.

[Xavier_Onassis]

When every American can get adequate health care and every American child has the chance to get enough education to live a productive life, then we will be taxed enough. 

The average Black family has $200 in liquid assets.
The average Hispanic family has $300.
The average White family has $23000.

A very few people are too disabled to enter the workforce. There are far too many Americans that are simply insane when they do not take their meds that are roaming about. Often the solution is to throw them in jail. This is expensive and does not work.

[Plane]

When every American can get adequate health care and every American child has the chance to get enough education to live a productive life, then we will be taxed enough. 

The average Black family has $200 in liquid assets.
The average Hispanic family has $300.
The average White family has $23000.

A very few people are too disabled to enter the workforce. There are far too many Americans that are simply insane when they do not take their meds that are roaming about. Often the solution is to throw them in jail. This is expensive and does not work.

  It is, and it should be ,rare for people to be forced to take medication.
   A socialist remedy for people unable to work have very few opponents.

    Are you accusing minority people of having bad habits?
     Or is this a reason to steal from the haves and hand it to the have nots?
   
      Some portion of the poor are not going to stay poor because they are smart and productive, a good combination that is beneficial for any race.

When every American can get adequate health care and every American child has the chance to get enough education to live a productive life, then we will be taxed enough. 

       By this formula we are taxed depending more on the desired result than on our ability to pay the tax, this is exactly where the hard thinking needs to be applied to strike that balance you mentioned.
       By this formula there is no top to "enough" and taxes that made the government into the entire economy would not be high enough.
        There could be a lot of health care with no tax spent on it , so what is "enough" health care? When people don't die anymore the expense of medical care will stop rising.

         Is spending the main problem with education? Aren't there places getting better results spending less per student than we already do?

        Taxes are like every other expenditure , there is a point of diminishing returns, and my argument is that this point is far in the past.

          Money not taken out of the public is not wasted , at least not wasted at the rate that the government wastes it.