Author Topic: Gun Nut does his thing: Nine worshipers killed.  (Read 10660 times)

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Plane

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Re: Gun Nut does his thing: Nine worshipers killed.
« Reply #45 on: June 20, 2015, 11:36:02 AM »
It is entirely possible that there could be hundreds of people in a church and not a soul with a gun or any other weapon.
This is the usual situation, actually, and it is not at all impossible.

Isn't this the original problem?

sirs

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Re: Gun Nut does his thing: Nine worshipers killed.
« Reply #46 on: June 20, 2015, 01:15:49 PM »
That would be a "yes"
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle


Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Gun Nut does his thing: Nine worshipers killed.
« Reply #48 on: June 20, 2015, 05:16:45 PM »
The actual problem is when ANYONE brings a gun to a church or other civilized gathering.

If armed guards are needed to defend such groups from Bad Gun Nuts, there is a problem in that society.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Gun Nut does his thing: Nine worshipers killed.
« Reply #49 on: June 20, 2015, 11:55:38 PM »
And why would the presence of a good gun nut, or even a useless gun nut "be a problem"? 

In fact, that's what makes your so-called useless gun nut, all the more useful....to have been in such a church, where they may have been able to prevent any death
« Last Edit: June 21, 2015, 05:55:47 AM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Gun Nut does his thing: Nine worshipers killed.
« Reply #50 on: June 21, 2015, 01:33:17 AM »
The actual problem is when ANYONE brings a gun to a church or other civilized gathering.

If armed guards are needed to defend such groups from Bad Gun Nuts, there is a problem in that society.

Not a big problem.
What you are defining as a bad gun nut is present among us at much less than one in a million right now.
Do you think that the society can become so good that the person that will do this sort of thing might be less than one in an hundred million?

Then of course when practically no one is murderous, the presence of guns and the absence of guns equally will not matter.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Gun Nut does his thing: Nine worshipers killed.
« Reply #51 on: June 21, 2015, 11:02:28 AM »
We have this sort of mass murder on a regular basis in this country. It does not happen in Western Europe, Australia, Japan and many other places.
It is therefore a comparatively large problem, and more attention should be paid to how other countries manage to diminish it and less the right of every loon in the country that wants to strut about with his goddamned firearm.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Gun Nut does his thing: Nine worshipers killed.
« Reply #52 on: June 21, 2015, 02:43:09 PM »
And as Plane and the facts keep demonstrating, that no, this is not a growing problem....that despite more people owning firearms, violent crime is declining.  The regions where you see this kind of stuff "on a regular basis" are .....drum roll.....those areas that have already enacted massive gun control legislation, analogous to places in other countries.

And btw, no responsible and legal CCW holder is "strutting around".  Quite the polar opposite in fact. 

Ever wonder why an NRA meeting is never targeted?
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Gun Nut does his thing: Nine worshipers killed.
« Reply #53 on: June 21, 2015, 03:05:17 PM »
  The USA is a pretty big country.  Not fair to compare one for one with small ones.

    Better to compare per capata.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/oct/10/world-murder-rate-unodc
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state#MRalpha
USA       2009                    5    per 100,000
France   2008                    1.4   
China     2008                   1.1   
Brazil     2009                  22.7
Mexico   2010                  18.1 
   
Texas    2008                    5.6      2009                  5.4
Illinois    2008                   6.1     2009                   6.0
Peru       2009                   5.2   
Russian Federation 2009   11.2
Louisiana      2008            11.9     2009                  11.8         
Switzerland  2008              0.7   

 Idaho            2008           1.5     2009                    1.6
 Hawaii           2008           1.9     2009                    1.8
Bahamas        2010          28


Hey , I got a lot of surprises in these charts.

The USA murder rate falls as one of the better in the new world , pretty bad compared to Western Europe , fits well with Eastern Europe , Better than most of Africa. Over all we are middle of the series.

I didn't expect China to be so much better than us.

I didn't expect Idaho to be equal to Hawaii , or the Bahamas to be so bad, I have been to the Bahamas the gun control there is very strict.
 

Georgia and Florida vary a lot but are usually near the national average which I didn't expect.

 

 

Plane

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Re: Gun Nut does his thing: Nine worshipers killed.
« Reply #54 on: June 21, 2015, 04:14:16 PM »
http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/France/United-States/Crime

Quote
  The United States has 88 guns for every 100 people!
This has to be a rough estimate.

Quote
Fear of crime >  Worries about being attacked  48.14
 Ranked 30th. 14% more than United States
  42.08  Ranked 43th.
Fear of crime >  Worries about being mugged or robbed
 49.46  Ranked 36th. 10% more than United States 
 45.01  Ranked 47th.   
This one is the surprising one. With generally lower crime stats, the French worry more about it.

Quote
Murders >  Per 100,000 people  1.6
 Ranked 105th. 
 5.9  Ranked 63th.  4 times more  than France   
Crime levels France  49.47
 Ranked 38th.   U.S.55.84
 Ranked 30th. 13% more than France

 

Justice system > Punishment >  Capital punishment (last execution year)  1,977
 Ranked 15th.   2,014
 Ranked 1st. 2% more than France 

   
 
  Police officers  210.2  Ranked 8th.
  243.6  Ranked 27th. 16% more than France     
 
 Rape rate  16.2   Ranked 21st. 
 27.3
 Ranked 9th. 69% more than France   
 
  Total crimes  3.77 million
 Ranked 4th.   11.88 million
 Ranked 1st.  3 times more  than France
   
 Violent crime > Gun crime >  Guns per 100 residents  31.2
 Ranked 12th. 
 88.8  Ranked 1st.  3 times more  than France   

 Violent crime >  Intentional homicide rate  1.63
 Ranked 34th.   4.7
 Ranked 7th.  3 times more  than France   
 
 Violent crime >  Murder rate  682
 Ranked 37th.   12,996
 Ranked 9th.  19 times more  than France   
 
 Violent crime >  Murder rate per million people
  10.54  Ranked 98th.
  42.01 Ranked 43th.  4 times more  than France 

Perceived problems >  Property crimes including vandalism and theft  54.52
 Ranked 35th.   57.93
 Ranked 28th. 6% more than France 
 
  Prisoners  56,957 prisoners Ranked 25th.
  2.02 million prisoners   Ranked 1st.  35 times more  than France
   
 

Violent crime >  Murders per million people  10.54  Ranked 98th.
  42.01  Ranked 43th.  4 times more  than France   
 
 Fear of crime > Feels safe walking alone >  During the day  75.79
 Ranked 56th. 1% more than United States   75.24
 Ranked 57th. 

 

I wonder how this works , with fewer crimes overall there are more French Victims?
Quote
Rape victims  0.7%   Ranked 10th. 75% more than United States 
 0.4%  Ranked 13th.

Total crime victims  21.4%
 Ranked 13th. 1% more than United States   21.1%
 Ranked 15th.   

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Gun Nut does his thing: Nine worshipers killed.
« Reply #55 on: June 21, 2015, 05:24:01 PM »
France deals with statistics like this on a national basis. The US lets the states handle most of it, and I think that therefore reported statistics are closer to reality in France than in the US.

China is not a society of individualists. When not at war,, China is a fairly orderly place.
In Japan, the police actually try rather hard to find stolen goods and return them to their owners. No one even tries in the US, so far as I know. Your only report thefts so you can collect insurance, unless it is a vast fortune or a collection or something like that.

The Bahamas have very strict laws, which they are quite poor at enforcing, from what I hear. They will respond much better to a theft from a tourist than from a fellow Bahamian.

People worry about crime more as a result of what they see on TV than reality. In recent years, the crime rate has gone down for most crimes, but on TV shows, it has gone up.  Crime shows are essentially conservative: the plot nearly always  follows the pattern in  which the status quo is interrupted by crime, and the police catch the bad guy and lock him up, and the status quo is restored. They rarely deal with polluters and other corporate crimes. I have never seen a TV show in which anyone organizes a union and anything good happens, like job safety being improved, overtime being paid, or people getting a raise. Unions rarely appear on TV and when they do, they are controlled by Mafiosos and gangsters, which is contrary to reality.



"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."