Author Topic: An Ugly Face, Though Necessary  (Read 3786 times)

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domer

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An Ugly Face, Though Necessary
« on: March 28, 2007, 09:16:44 PM »
Congress is putting an ugly face on the Iraq debate, even though it's Nancy Pelosi's. The necessary effort by our lawmakers to establish an impassable line beyond which escalation cannot proceed, but also to begin the process of withdrawal of troops and thus an end to the war itself, puts Congress in the awkward (ugly) position of proposing reductions in assets that are sure to be perceived and may actually serve to reduce palpable support our troops may need. And it goes without saying that in the popular-mind understanding of war and politics as games, the Democrats have chosen "defeat" (over endless quagmire). Yet, the alternative confronting the Democrats is to simply let the status quo proceed (is that an oxymoron?) while waiting for relief in the form of the next president-elect. But that is not tolerable for at least three reasons: Bush's aims will never be achieved, the Democrats truly believe; if a positive outcome is to be achieved at all, it will be through the mechanism of Iraqi politics, unmediated; and the war itself, barring some savage, sustained and widespread upsurge in violence needing an American prophylactic, is itself the vessel for American woes: an aggression largely perceived to be an imperial, colonial war, with oppressed and oppressors, and with the US playing the villain.

« Last Edit: March 30, 2007, 12:37:00 PM by domer »

BT

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Re: An Ugly Face, Though Necessary
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2007, 09:52:05 PM »
Let's see how it all plays out.

Not a whole lot of time difference betwen 9/08 and 1/09.

September was a political move, designed to reap benefits for bringing the troops home.

I guess a lot depends on what happens over there between now and then.

Could boomerang on them.




sirs

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Re: An Ugly Face, Though Necessary
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2007, 10:16:19 PM »
The problem is Domer, Congress's function and responsibility is NOT in dictating war policy or when troops are to come home.  That is Constitutionally placed with the President.  The Constitution provides what Congress can do regarding war.  They can declare it, and they can fund or defund it.

If folks like Reid are decrying how not 1 more life should be lost in this supposed illconceived misbegotten war, then they have an absolute duty and Constitutional responsibility to CUT THE FUNDS.

What is beyond shameful, and I'd be surprised if any rational Democrat isn't also peeved, is this new party of power, declaring how they're going to "drain the swamp", abolish pork barrel spending, and supposedly "bring back honor and integrity to Washington", is instead turning around and acting just as childlike, immature, dishonest group of politicians I had always expected of them to be.  The pork spending alone is bad enough to debunk that particular campaign pledge.  But to connect it to an emergency supplimental bill, that is specific to the war, makes me wonder how anyone with a rational neuron could support that extra-constitutional BS manuever.

Then I remind myself the mind set of so many on the left, ends justify the means.......Bush is evil, must defeat Bush.  Morals, ethics, and contitutionality be damned, must defeat Bush     
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

sirs

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Re: An Ugly Face, Though Necessary
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2007, 04:09:35 AM »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

domer

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Re: An Ugly Face, Though Necessary
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2007, 12:16:27 PM »
I agree to an extent with BT's assessment that the 9-08 target date is political, but disagree that the interval to 1-09 is virtually negligible, not in absolute terms, which it isn't, but in terms of when a fairly complicated process needs to be started, which is sooner rather than later. The lead-in time, both for political forces to forge into resolve and for military forces actually to physically disengage in a least destructive fashion, offered by the present scheme thus appears sensible. Details aside, the grand debate that's going on is between the win-at-any-cost proponents (Bush, McCain, Lieberman & Co) and the avoid-an-endless-quagmire proponents. Thus cast, the Democrats have a strong position, with seemingly broad popular support. They are fighting, however, the specter of a failed state, a roiled region, the geo-psychological effect of accepting defeat and other boogeymen of varyingly real characters. Yet, as with most decisions based on a prediction of future events, the conclusions reached today about the effects that will befall us tomorrow are necessarily speculative, and can only be approximated to an actual later reality by a process of sound risk-assessment, made all the easier, for good or bad, in the post-Vietnam era.

I should add that the Democratic position necessarily incorporates, at least in my understanding, the tacit view that all legitimate aims in the struggle with violent, radical, terroristic Islam can be successfully addressed through more effective means other than a pitched land war in a country experiencing, mainly, exaggerated civil strife.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2007, 12:36:16 PM by domer »

The_Professor

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Re: An Ugly Face, Though Necessary
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2007, 03:04:53 PM »

I should add that the Democratic position necessarily incorporates, at least in my understanding, the tacit view that all legitimate aims in the struggle with violent, radical, terroristic Islam can be successfully addressed through more effective means other than a pitched land war in a country experiencing, mainly, exaggerated civil strife.

No, but a couple thousand Tomahawks can sometimes do wonder for radical Islamic morale. A land war is not necessarily, many times, required to get a point across. Love those "projecting power" carrier task groups!
« Last Edit: March 31, 2007, 01:13:07 AM by The_Professor »

BT

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Re: An Ugly Face, Though Necessary
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2007, 03:21:20 PM »
Quote
I agree to an extent with BT's assessment that the 9-08 target date is political, but disagree that the interval to 1-09 is virtually negligible, not in absolute terms, which it isn't, but in terms of when a fairly complicated process needs to be started, which is sooner rather than later.

I would have no problem with withdrawal being the central theme of the '08 race. What the dems are doing is taking that decision out of the hands of the voters. If they can capture the whitehouse by advocating withdrawal more power to them.


Xavier_Onassis

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Re: An Ugly Face, Though Necessary
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2007, 05:41:08 PM »
Quote
I agree to an extent with BT's assessment that the 9-08 target date is political, but disagree that the interval to 1-09 is virtually negligible, not in absolute terms, which it isn't, but in terms of when a fairly complicated process needs to be started, which is sooner rather than later.

I would have no problem with withdrawal being the central theme of the '08 race. What the dems are doing is taking that decision out of the hands of the voters. If they can capture the whitehouse by advocating withdrawal more power to them.

\--------------------------------------------------
The voters' most recent decision was to get the hell out of Iraq. No one has had an opportunity to vote for the warmongering Sockpuppet and his puppeteer since 2004.

The Democrats have correctly read what the voters want and they are doing all they can to end the stupid war.

And forget all that crap about 'victory'  The US is not going to be victorious in Iraq's Civil War. Only Iraqis can win it.

A corrupt satrapy of Big Oil running Iraq with many US bases to back them up would be the Neocons definition of a victory, but that won't happen, either.

The sooner out the better.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

BT

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Re: An Ugly Face, Though Necessary
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2007, 05:51:20 PM »
Quote
The sooner out the better

Agreed, that if the dems feel they have a mandate to end the war then, 9-07 certainly would be better than 9-08.




sirs

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Re: An Ugly Face, Though Necessary
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2007, 05:52:02 PM »
The Democrats have correctly read what the voters want and they are doing all they can to end the stupid war.

Actually, that's a false statement.  What they haven't done, and ironically, what they're constitutionally allowed to do is to defund the war.  Again, if they believe it's as egregious as you keep trying to paint it as, it's their constitutional responsibility to defund it immediately.  Any American soldier's life lost beyond the Dems taking over congress, is on their hands, since they had the power to stop the funding and end it  
 

The sooner out the better.

Apparently the Dem's are thinking the opposite.  Then again, there's a method to their madness
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

fatman

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Re: An Ugly Face, Though Necessary
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2007, 10:25:29 PM »
Congress's function and responsibility is NOT in dictating war policy or when troops are to come home.  That is Constitutionally placed with the President.  The Constitution provides what Congress can do regarding war.  They can declare it, and they can fund or defund it.

You are absolutely correct on this sirs.  What hasn't been mentioned is the abdication (other than some notables such as Byrd) of Congress of its oversight.  Personally, if I were in Congress, I would think some alarm bells should have been going off some time ago.  To say that the Republican Congress was pretty much a rubber stamp with "Bush is Right" on it is a bit of an understatement, but the Congress in session now is like the drunk who wakes the next morning with a hangover and wants his money back.  If Congress would have done their job in the first place and reined Bush or the Neocons or whoever the hell takes responsibility (credit?) for this war, perhaps we wouldn't have the mess that we have now.

If folks like Reid are decrying how not 1 more life should be lost in this supposed illconceived misbegotten war, then they have an absolute duty and Constitutional responsibility to CUT THE FUNDS.

Total agreement here.  It would be a risk and quite possibly political suicide, but it would sure be nice to see some balls (guts for the ladies) in Congress for once.  Of course, there would be those folks on the right going on about how those voting to cut funds are communists out to weaken the United States, but I've got to tell you, I wish someone would stand up and take initiative finally.

What is beyond shameful, and I'd be surprised if any rational Democrat isn't also peeved, is this new party of power, declaring how they're going to "drain the swamp", abolish pork barrel spending, and supposedly "bring back honor and integrity to Washington", is instead turning around and acting just as childlike, immature, dishonest group of politicians I had always expected of them to be.  The pork spending alone is bad enough to debunk that particular campaign pledge.

I have to agree here too sirs (all this agreement is starting to make me want a hug).  I would think that if the Dems do have a mandate to end the war (and personally, I think they do), then they should vote for the withdrawal without all of the pork.  Instead, they line up at the feed trough waiting for their slop, instead of doing what, in my mind at least, would be the right thing and vote for the withdrawal.  By adding all of the pork they've just blown their credibility and their assertions about an electoral mandate to end the war out of the water.


But to connect it to an emergency supplimental bill, that is specific to the war, makes me wonder how anyone with a rational neuron could support that extra-constitutional BS manuever.

See the part up above about the feed trough.


sirs

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Re: An Ugly Face, Though Necessary
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2007, 02:21:51 AM »
Wow, if Fatman agrees with something I said, I must have said something right for a change. 

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: An Ugly Face, Though Necessary
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2007, 03:32:32 AM »
Almost my entire working life I have been working in the defense industry .

I beleive that a strong nation doesn't need to fight as often as a weak nation.

So we ar certainly well armed , we have a professional and well trained set of soldiers , sailors and airmen.

But are we strong if we have no heart for the fight?


By fearing to fight , might we invite more fights ?

The_Professor

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Re: An Ugly Face, Though Necessary
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2007, 10:56:02 AM »
My observation is that we perhaps do not have the "stomach" for long-enduring fights. This should play a role in our military strategy sessions.

domer

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Re: An Ugly Face, Though Necessary
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2007, 12:45:31 PM »
The Professor makes a very good point, but one that needs elaboration. A nation starved and steel-tempered for hardship as we were for World War II, for example, has a much greater capacity for the rigors of war then a nation complacent in its self-indulgent culture, where comfort matters much more than sacrifice. Partly, today's self-indulgent me-ism was allowed to reign unchecked by a president who refused to burden his political message (but why: his popularity tanked anyhow?) with calls for shared sacrifice. Beyond that, however, and much more fundamentally, the threshold was not even reached for Iraq to establish an ethic of sacrifice. The consensus view -- and I will say the objective one, in hindsight or otherwwise -- is that the Iraq War was "optional" and unnnecessary, and yet remains subject to alternate resolution, perhaps, with the only obstacle being a myopic president with a limited worldview and an even more limited array of intellectual tools to forge his way out.