Author Topic: Just sittin' back waitin' for the excuses to come rolling in  (Read 4540 times)

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hnumpah

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Just sittin' back waitin' for the excuses to come rolling in
« on: April 08, 2007, 10:59:44 PM »
Iraqi details 'shocking' U.S. missteps
By CHARLES J. HANLEY, AP Special Correspondent

NEW YORK - In a rueful reflection on what might have been, an Iraqi government insider details in 500 pages the U.S. occupation's "shocking" mismanagement of his country — a performance so bad, he writes, that by 2007 Iraqis had "turned their backs on their would-be liberators."

"The corroded and corrupt state of Saddam was replaced by the corroded, inefficient, incompetent and corrupt state of the new order," Ali A. Allawi concludes in "The Occupation of Iraq," newly published by Yale University Press.

Allawi writes with authority as a member of that "new order," having served as Iraq's trade, defense and finance minister at various times since 2003. As a former academic, at Oxford University before the U.S.-British invasion of Iraq, he also writes with unusual detachment.

The U.S.- and British-educated engineer and financier is the first senior Iraqi official to look back at book length on his country's four-year ordeal. It's an unsparing look at failures both American and Iraqi, an account in which the word "ignorance" crops up repeatedly.

First came the "monumental ignorance" of those in Washington pushing for war in 2002 without "the faintest idea" of Iraq's realities. "More perceptive people knew instinctively that the invasion of Iraq would open up the great fissures in Iraqi society," he writes.

What followed was the "rank amateurism and swaggering arrogance" of the occupation, under L. Paul Bremer's Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA), which took big steps with little consultation with Iraqis, steps Allawi and many others see as blunders:

• The Americans disbanded Iraq's army, which Allawi said could have helped quell a rising insurgency in 2003. Instead, hundreds of thousands of demobilized, angry men became a recruiting pool for the resistance.

• Purging tens of thousands of members of toppled President Saddam Hussein's Baath party — from government, school faculties and elsewhere — left Iraq short on experienced hands at a crucial time.

• An order consolidating decentralized bank accounts at the Finance Ministry bogged down operations of Iraq's many state-owned enterprises.

• The CPA's focus on private enterprise allowed the "commercial gangs" of Saddam's day to monopolize business.

• Its free-trade policy allowed looted Iraqi capital equipment to be spirited away across borders.

• The CPA perpetuated Saddam's fuel subsidies, selling gasoline at giveaway prices and draining the budget.

In his 2006 memoir of the occupation, Bremer wrote that senior U.S. generals wanted to recall elements of the old Iraqi army in 2003, but were rebuffed by the Bush administration. Bremer complained generally that his authority was undermined by Washington's "micromanagement."

Although Allawi, a cousin of Ayad Allawi, Iraq's prime minister in 2004, is a member of a secularist Shiite Muslim political grouping, his well-researched book betrays little partisanship.

On U.S. reconstruction failures — in electricity, health care and other areas documented by Washington's own auditors — Allawi writes that the Americans' "insipid retelling of `success' stories" merely hid "the huge black hole that lay underneath." (ouch, bet that hurt)

For their part, U.S. officials have often largely blamed Iraq's explosive violence for the failures of reconstruction and poor governance.

The author has been instrumental since 2005 in publicizing extensive corruption within Iraq's "new order," including an $800-million Defense Ministry scandal. Under Saddam, he writes, the secret police kept would-be plunderers in check better than the U.S. occupiers have done.

As 2007 began, Allawi concludes, "America's only allies in Iraq were those who sought to manipulate the great power to their narrow advantage. It might have been otherwise."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070408/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_insider_s_account_5
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BT

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Re: Just sittin' back waitin' for the excuses to come rolling in
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2007, 11:43:18 PM »
What excuses?

His book illustrates his perspective, just as your decision to post this story and your choice of thread title illustrates yours.

Plane

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Re: Just sittin' back waitin' for the excuses to come rolling in
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2007, 11:56:19 PM »
I am guessing that this guy is not a Kurd.

hnumpah

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Re: Just sittin' back waitin' for the excuses to come rolling in
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2007, 08:38:35 AM »
Quote
I am guessing that this guy is not a Kurd.

So just because 1/3 of the country is relatively safe, the other 2/3 can go to hell and Georgie's little war is a resounding success?
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Plane

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Re: Just sittin' back waitin' for the excuses to come rolling in
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2007, 11:03:46 AM »
Quote
I am guessing that this guy is not a Kurd.

So just because 1/3 of the country is relatively safe, the other 2/3 can go to hell and Georgie's little war is a resounding success?


One third of th Country was smart enough to greet us with roses and exploit the oppurtunity we offered to them an though co-operateing with us they were willing to take possession and responsibility for their own security.


1/3 of Iraq seems smarter than the  2/3 where they are busy killing each other for frivolus reasons.

Mucho

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Re: Just sittin' back waitin' for the excuses to come rolling in
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2007, 11:17:53 AM »
Quote
I am guessing that this guy is not a Kurd.

So just because 1/3 of the country is relatively safe, the other 2/3 can go to hell and Georgie's little war is a resounding success?


One third of th Country was smart enough to greet us with roses and exploit the oppurtunity we offered to them an though co-operateing with us they were willing to take possession and responsibility for their own security.


1/3 of Iraq seems smarter than the  2/3 where they are busy killing each other for frivolus reasons.

Some of the third are getting wiser and want to only kill US now.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/04/09/africa/web-0410iraqCND.php

Plane

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Re: Just sittin' back waitin' for the excuses to come rolling in
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2007, 11:28:16 AM »
Quote
I am guessing that this guy is not a Kurd.

So just because 1/3 of the country is relatively safe, the other 2/3 can go to hell and Georgie's little war is a resounding success?


One third of th Country was smart enough to greet us with roses and exploit the oppurtunity we offered to them an though co-operateing with us they were willing to take possession and responsibility for their own security.


1/3 of Iraq seems smarter than the  2/3 where they are busy killing each other for frivolus reasons.

Some of the third are getting wiser and want to only kill US now.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/04/09/africa/web-0410iraqCND.php


What is smart about that?

The smart ones are not suffering from the occupation , they require less supervision so they are much less occupied , they are quashing terrorism themselves so their oil is being pumped and sold , their employment is up and the city of their dreams is being built. We aren't even heping them much .

For the sake of pride Muctata Al Sader lies, and for the sake of pride people who ought to know better beleive him.

The_Professor

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Re: Just sittin' back waitin' for the excuses to come rolling in
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2007, 02:46:38 PM »
Look here, folks, you are justifying this incursion because Hussein might have attacked us, if I read this correctly. Balderdash!

If you apply that premise, then you must line up the other hundred or so despots who might have WMDs and attack the mas well or you are inconsistent. Arguably, even FDR did not order a pre-emptive attack on Japan even though he knew Pearl would be toast.

Whatever happened to the concept in the Wild West that said that the good guy wanted for the Bad Guy to draw first? That should be our mantra. Does it mean we are wimps? Not so at all. We need to be so strong militarily that the "bad guys" will hesitate before attacking our assets and if they do, Heaven help 'em. But to go, willy-nilly, around the world and engaging in pre-emptive attacks is both foolish and ineffective.

Let's see here: what have we really accomplished by deposing a despot and this ill-advised incursion into Iraq? No substantive progress in reconstruction(charitably said), less unity with our allies, finicial insecurity here at home (thedebt our grandchildren will be paying off) and so on. Even the local airbase is suffering as the armed forces are restructuring in order to find the money to continue funding the war and that means losing slots right and left here.

When do you attack? When you have been attacked FIRST and/or a heckuva lot more accurate Intel than we had in this endeavor. And, IT MUST BE IN YOUR NATIONAL INTEREST, narrowly defined.

sirs

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Re: Just sittin' back waitin' for the excuses to come rolling in
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2007, 03:02:28 PM »
When do you attack? When you have been attacked FIRST and/or a heckuva lot more accurate Intel than we had in this endeavor.

Monday morning QB'ing is great, after the fact.  BEFORE the fact, the intel was considered solid, and corroborated by nearly every other intelligence agency.  NIE was a complete concensus.  ATT, (At The/That Time) it was considered not just sound intel, but perfectly reasonable under the circumstances.  Inspector David Kay's report makes that patently clear, Professor


And, IT MUST BE IN YOUR NATIONAL INTEREST, narrowly defined.

Stopping folks like AlQueada, who had just murdered 3000+ Americans with box cutters, from aquiring WMD (which might make boxcutters look like, well, ordinary boxcutters) from folks like Saddam's Iraq is absolutely within our national interest.  ATT the ties were there, both direct & indirect.  ATT, given the intel and circumstances following 911, it would have been irresponsible for Bush NOT to have done what he has done, IMHO

I will concede this though.  I'll require better intel than we relied on for Iraq, to support any other military incursion into another country
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Just sittin' back waitin' for the excuses to come rolling in
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2007, 03:48:24 PM »
Quote
If you apply that premise, then you must line up the other hundred or so despots who might have WMDs and attack the mas well or you are inconsistent.

Nonsense. Saddam had a proven record of aggression. His regime obviously should have been prioritized to the head of the pack.

A year ago folks were bitching because Bush was allowing the Euro's to diplomaticly take the lead in negotiating with Iran re nuclear arms. How has that worked out?



Plane

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Re: Just sittin' back waitin' for the excuses to come rolling in
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2007, 04:17:52 PM »
"If you apply that premise, then you must line up the other hundred or so despots who might have WMDs and attack the mas well or you are inconsistent. "


Lets do that , but why not one at a time?

hnumpah

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Re: Just sittin' back waitin' for the excuses to come rolling in
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2007, 05:16:03 PM »
Quote
His book illustrates his perspective, just as your decision to post this story and your choice of thread title illustrates yours.

I'm guessing that, since his perspective was as a former member of the administration over there, it's a better one than the folks whose "insipid retelling of `success' stories" merely hid "the huge black hole that lay underneath."

Just perspective?

• The Americans disbanded Iraq's army, which Allawi said could have helped quell a rising insurgency in 2003. Instead, hundreds of thousands of demobilized, angry men became a recruiting pool for the resistance. Yep, the news accounts bear that out.

• Purging tens of thousands of members of toppled President Saddam Hussein's Baath party — from government, school faculties and elsewhere — left Iraq short on experienced hands at a crucial time. Um, the reports bear that out as well.

• An order consolidating decentralized bank accounts at the Finance Ministry bogged down operations of Iraq's many state-owned enterprises. Wasn't paying attention on that one, but I'm sure the record will bear that one out as well.

• The CPA's focus on private enterprise allowed the "commercial gangs" of Saddam's day to monopolize business.

• Its free-trade policy allowed looted Iraqi capital equipment to be spirited away across borders. Yep.

• The CPA perpetuated Saddam's fuel subsidies, selling gasoline at giveaway prices and draining the budget. Yep.

In his 2006 memoir of the occupation, Bremer wrote that senior U.S. generals wanted to recall elements of the old Iraqi army in 2003, but were rebuffed by the Bush administration. Bremer complained generally that his authority was undermined by Washington's "micromanagement."

And let us not forget, leaving the munitions dumps unguarded during the invasion, the rampant corruption, millions of dollars sent over by plane and missing and completely unaccounted for... The mishandling of the entire affair borders on criminal.

I guess the historical perspective is a hard one to argue with.

"I love WikiLeaks." - Donald Trump, October 2016

BT

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Re: Just sittin' back waitin' for the excuses to come rolling in
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2007, 06:04:55 PM »
His perspective is his perspective. Perhaps he would have more credibility in my mind if he spoke up while still holding the reins of power. Aren't book deals kind of the last stop on the downward spiral  to oblivion?




hnumpah

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Re: Just sittin' back waitin' for the excuses to come rolling in
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2007, 06:26:25 AM »
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Aren't book deals kind of the last stop on the downward spiral  to oblivion?

You wouldn't believe how that makes me laugh.

Seems OleBush wrote a book after he became ex-president.

His son might have been better off if he had read it and paid attention.
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BT

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Re: Just sittin' back waitin' for the excuses to come rolling in
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2007, 07:15:45 AM »
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Seems OleBush wrote a book after he became ex-president.

Thanks for making my point.

Quote
His son might have been better off if he had read it and paid attention.

Thought W was too stupid to read.