Just sittin' back waitin' for the excuses to come rolling in

[The_Professor]

"If you apply that premise, then you must line up the other hundred or so despots who might have WMDs and attack the mas well or you are inconsistent. "


Lets do that , but why not one at a time?

a. Impractical.
b. Why is it OUR job?

[Plane]

"If you apply that premise, then you must line up the other hundred or so despots who might have WMDs and attack the mas well or you are inconsistent. "


Lets do that , but why not one at a time?

a. Impractical.
b. Why is it OUR job?

A. Do you consider it more practical to attack all tyrants at once?

B. Who elese ? Should it simply not be done?

[The_Professor]

No attacking please, unless they attack us first or a "friend" such as Great Britain. Or, you could argue, our interests, narrowly defined. An example, might be someone deciding on their won to "take over" the Panama Canal.

Scanning over a globe of the world you see many many scumbags, some with even nuclear weapons or the capability to be so in short order (read: North Korea). And, many hate our guts!

So? That doesn't mean you automatically go and attack them!

As Sirs correctly notes, however, the intel for Iraq was pretty firm, e.g. we felt he had WMDs. Okay, I really do believe that , just as I believe President Bush really believed it all, just as I probably would have. After all, it really did LOOK that way. Ok, got it so far?

Here is where we differ. Just because Hussein is a scumbag and just because he has WMDs (apparently) and just because he hates us, DOESN'T MEAN YOU GO AND DEPOSE HIM!

[Plane]

What if you already have a foot on his neck?

[The_Professor]

Well, why would you do that if you followed my logic anyway?

[hnumpah]

Thanks for making my point.

Thanks for missing mine.

Thought W was too stupid to read.

Did I say that? Or are you trying to lump me in with someone else?

As I understand it, he was reading some story about a Billy goat with a bunch of schoolkids when the planes flew into the twin towers. I suppose he could have been just looking at the pictures, though.

[Plane]

Well, why would you do that if you follwoed my logic anyway.

One of the things that made Saddams regime unique is that we were already invading his territory.

Have you ever held a wasp by its wings?


We could have withdrawn andlet Saddam crow about how he beat us , but the results would have been pretty bad ,........ worse than the present situation ?


I don't know , and those who know are pretending .

[BT]

Thanks for missing mine.

Did I? What was your point?

As I understand it, he was reading some story about a Billy goat with a bunch of schoolkids when the planes flew into the twin towers. I suppose he could have been just looking at the pictures, though.

I believe he was reading the story to the schoolchildren. I guess it was possible he was just showing them the pictures.

[_JS]

In fairness Bt and others, I've read over this thread and no one really makes a good argument as to what the CPA did well, or even tries to defend their actions. Most of the "defense" seems to be attacking the messenger, which I'll note is one way this administration has really further sunk into this civil war - by refusing to even listen to compelling criticism (consider General Franks and others who argued for more troops on the ground when this invasion first began).

From what I have read the CPA was extremely prejudiced with ideology over pragmatism. It ran something similar to "shock therapy" capitalism, which almost no one would prescribe for a country so deeply mired in sectarian war. Then there were bizarre policies such as forcing Iraqi farmers to go ahead and plant their crops (though knowing that violence would take its toll) and yet also forcing them to purchase seed from American agribusiness.

So to answer your question Plane, yes the Kurds hated many of the policies as well. This isn't America. Publicly owned industries are not despised in the Arab world (or in Kurdistan, who has for decades been represented by socialist to communist groups). The Arabs and Kurds have a much stronger sense of society and community than we do. Plus, it just made no practical sense to make such drastic administrative structural changes during war.

It reminds me a little of the CSA, whose own ideological ideosyncracies helped defeat the very cause they were fighting for.

[BT]

Js

I made no attempt to defend or excuse the administrations handling of the war.

I simply pointed out that the speaker was speaking from their perspective as a former Iraqi government honcho and the poster was posting from their own perspective on the war and the Bush Administration.

I took no side on the veracity of the speakers claims nor did i take a position on the posters perspective.


Were mistakes made. Absolutely.

Does stating that opinion change the dynamics of the here and now?

Doubtful.

[Plane]

In fairness Bt and others, I've read over this thread and no one really makes a good argument as to what the CPA did well, or even tries to defend their actions. Most of the "defense" seems to be attacking the messenger, which I'll note is one way this administration has really further sunk into this civil war - by refusing to even listen to compelling criticism (consider General Franks and others who argued for more troops on the ground when this invasion first began).

From what I have read the CPA was extremely prejudiced with ideology over pragmatism. It ran something similar to "shock therapy" capitalism, which almost no one would prescribe for a country so deeply mired in sectarian war. Then there were bizarre policies such as forcing Iraqi farmers to go ahead and plant their crops (though knowing that violence would take its toll) and yet also forcing them to purchase seed from American agribusiness.

So to answer your question Plane, yes the Kurds hated many of the policies as well. This isn't America. Publicly owned industries are not despised in the Arab world (or in Kurdistan, who has for decades been represented by socialist to communist groups). The Arabs and Kurds have a much stronger sense of society and community than we do. Plus, it just made no practical sense to make such drastic administrative structural changes during war.

It reminds me a little of the CSA, whose own ideological ideosyncracies helped defeat the very cause they were fighting for.

The Kurds have figured out how to exploit the situation to their benifit.

[_JS]

Does stating that opinion change the dynamics of the here and now?

Doubtful.

But it does raise the question of how much this administration is prepared to allow the Iraqis to determine their own government versus how much American-style capitalist domination we are trying to implement for them.

More than that Bt, it goes to prove my theory that we don't really understand the Iraqis at all, but worse than that - we don't seem to care enough to bother to learn. If that is the case, then I'm not sure that Domer's end scenario won't play out regardless of the strategies we employ.

And if that is the case, then we've already failed. So in those terms it is very relevant to the discussion of Iraq in the here and now.

The Kurds have figured out how to exploit the situation to their benifit.

Perhaps, to an extent. Yet, they were going to do so regardless of how we ran the CPA. It was always going to impact the Sunni and Shi'a more unless we dabbled a great deal in Kurdish affairs, which was the one gigantic big red "do not push - EVER" button that this administration managed to leave alone. We meddled in their affairs with Iran, but otherwise the Kurds are basically their own nation. Hell, there are incidents where they have guarded our people and facilities! Us taking credit for Kurdish success is a bit off the mark.

[Plane]

Kurds shoud indeed have a lot of credit for their success so far.

Shia and Sunni should bear a lot of esponsiility for the decisions they have made and he resuts of same also.

[BT]

And if that is the case, then we've already failed.

Well hell. Pack the boys up and bring them home. Today if possible, tomorrow if not.

[_JS]

*sigh*

You quite intentionally avoided the conditional in that quote. But hey, if we're not taking this war seriously, then fuck it.