Author Topic: Siding with the Sunni  (Read 3751 times)

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_JS

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Re: Siding with the Sunni
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2007, 10:13:53 AM »
Quote
We dd not choose to hate Iran , they chose to hate us , we didn't care what sort of Muslim they were in the time that they were our Allies and we don't care now.

First of all you miss the point entirely. This is about Iraq, not Iran. *sigh*

Secondly, Iran did not choose to hate us as if they woke up one day and said, "let's hate the Americans today! Jolly good that sounds like fun!" They dislike us because we overthrew an elected government in Iran in 1953. We helped the Shah establish SAVAK to allegedly remove the communist threat (there wasn't much of one) and in reality it became the state police that kept the Shah in power.

You're right, we didn't care what religion the Shah was, all we knew is that he was our ally and was one of the bloodiest dictators on the planet. To say that they "chose" to hate us is like saying that Jews "chose" to hate the Fascists. I think there was some justifiable cause.

The difference between then and now is that we've "liberated" Iraq and if we establish any kind of real democracy then the Shi'a will take power. It has to be so because the Shi'a are 60% of the Iraqi population.

You say, why do we care?

We care because many of the Shi'a leaders are very friendly with Iran (as are the Kurdish). The only ones who are openly hostile to Iran are the Sunni. If you have not noticed it is a war of sectarian violence.

Have you seen, honestly, anyone discuss the funding and weapons of the Sunni insurgents? They cause the most deaths in terms of civilian casualties and American soldiers, yet all I read is about Iran and Sadr City (Shi'a). Seriously, why are we not discussing the insurgents who are causing the majority of violence?
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Plane

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Re: Siding with the Sunni
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2007, 12:40:09 PM »
Quote
We dd not choose to hate Iran , they chose to hate us , we didn't care what sort of Muslim they were in the time that they were our Allies and we don't care now.

First of all you miss the point entirely. This is about Iraq, not Iran. *sigh*

*sigh* It is about Iran unless you know of another majority Shia country that has twenty minutes of hate for the USA every day. The point that we are chooseing Shia or Sunni is invalid because we are not , we do not have the choice to side with Iran because they are not availibole as allies so if we make an ally at all it will not be Shia dominated . That is the reason for the point .


_JS

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Re: Siding with the Sunni
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2007, 01:05:21 PM »
Quote
The point that we are chooseing Shia or Sunni is invalid because we are not , we do not have the choice to side with Iran because they are not availibole as allies so if we make an ally at all it will not be Shia dominated . That is the reason for the point .

The facts point out that we are choosing the Sunni over the Shi'a. You have not provided facts to refute that beyond simply stating that "it is not so." The article gives facts. It is a fact that while the Sunni are the insurgents causing the most damage and deaths (even to our own troops), the administration is constantly speaking about Iran and Shi'a militia in Iraq.

Show something to refute this, please. Simply saying it is not so, while the facts say otherwise is not credible.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

The_Professor

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Re: Siding with the Sunni
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2007, 09:06:24 PM »
Quote
We dd not choose to hate Iran , they chose to hate us , we didn't care what sort of Muslim they were in the time that they were our Allies and we don't care now.

First of all you miss the point entirely. This is about Iraq, not Iran. *sigh*

Secondly, Iran did not choose to hate us as if they woke up one day and said, "let's hate the Americans today! Jolly good that sounds like fun!" They dislike us because we overthrew an elected government in Iran in 1953. We helped the Shah establish SAVAK to allegedly remove the communist threat (there wasn't much of one) and in reality it became the state police that kept the Shah in power.

You're right, we didn't care what religion the Shah was, all we knew is that he was our ally and was one of the bloodiest dictators on the planet. To say that they "chose" to hate us is like saying that Jews "chose" to hate the Fascists. I think there was some justifiable cause.

The difference between then and now is that we've "liberated" Iraq and if we establish any kind of real democracy then the Shi'a will take power. It has to be so because the Shi'a are 60% of the Iraqi population.

You say, why do we care?

We care because many of the Shi'a leaders are very friendly with Iran (as are the Kurdish). The only ones who are openly hostile to Iran are the Sunni. If you have not noticed it is a war of sectarian violence.

Have you seen, honestly, anyone discuss the funding and weapons of the Sunni insurgents? They cause the most deaths in terms of civilian casualties and American soldiers, yet all I read is about Iran and Sadr City (Shi'a). Seriously, why are we not discussing the insurgents who are causing the majority of violence?

Actually, there were positives to the Shah's time in office. He instituted many Western practices, built REAL roads, enabled women to be more visible, even in Government offices and so on. I WAS THERE; many Iranians on the street were happy about these reforms and not so happy after his overthrow. What was one of the first things that transpired AFTER his overthrow? The museums were ransacked and EVERY animal in the zoo was killed, mutilated and left in the sun. And on and on....Contrary to eh MSM, it was NOT a one-sided picture. As only one example, a female acquatiance of mine who was a professor there was assasinated by the Ayotaollah's folks within days of the takeover along with most of her contemporaries. Typical for barbarians.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2007, 11:59:41 PM by The_Professor »
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Plane

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Re: Siding with the Sunni
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2007, 11:38:28 PM »
Quote
The point that we are chooseing Shia or Sunni is invalid because we are not , we do not have the choice to side with Iran because they are not availibole as allies so if we make an ally at all it will not be Shia dominated . That is the reason for the point .

The facts point out that we are choosing the Sunni over the Shi'a. You have not provided facts to refute that beyond simply stating that "it is not so." The article gives facts. It is a fact that while the Sunni are the insurgents causing the most damage and deaths (even to our own troops), the administration is constantly speaking about Iran and Shi'a militia in Iraq.

Show something to refute this, please. Simply saying it is not so, while the facts say otherwise is not credible.

Quote
""
Thus, in the name of "working with these states to fight back extremism" (as secretary of state Condoleezza Rice put it), the US is arming two of the Arab world's leading human rights abusers: Saudi Arabia and Egypt.

The reaction from Tehran was predictable. US policy "is creating fear and concerns in the countries of the region and trying to harm the good relations between these countries", foreign ministry spokesman Mohammad Ali Hosseini told reporters in Tehran. And he's absolutely right.

""

Reminds me of the guy who was looking for his lost keys under a streetlight , a helpfull stranger asked him if that was were he dropped them and he replied , "No , I dropped them over there somewhere but I can't search there , it is too dark"

This article is about makeig freinds with Sunni preferentially to Shia which it makes as a spurious pont , I am pointing out that the point is spurious , if we had some other country to talk about than Iran  which was Shia there might be a point to make but there is not is there?

I seem to recall some guy named Chillabi being a Shia with American connections and Iranian connections too , too bad he couldn't make it work , but that wasn't because the US gave him a problem .

If Iran wanted a good relationship with us they could easily have it , then we would be helping a Shia country , but how can we make them freindly without them wanting to be?

The "facts" that this article contains are facts like "While the US has been occupying Iraq ,There has been a dearth of sunlight at midnight" sure they are true , but in each of them ,what would the opposite choice have been?
« Last Edit: August 03, 2007, 11:40:58 PM by Plane »

Plane

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Re: Siding with the Sunni
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2007, 11:45:40 PM »
It was well known that the Shiites outnumbered the Sunnis in Iraq, as it was also well known that Iran was mostly Shia, and that most of the Ba'athists were Sunni.

In any democratic election in such a situation, the Shia were obviously going to beat out the Sunni. That's why the invasion was so incredibly dippy.



Is Democracy inherantly bad then ?

Is the disadvantage of any minority in a democracy an evil tied to the philosophy and inescapable ?

Am I anti-minority for supporting Democracy in the US?

_JS

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Re: Siding with the Sunni
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2007, 01:36:55 PM »
Actually, there were positives to the Shah's time in office. He instituted many Western practices, built REAL roads, enabled women to be more visible, even in Government offices and so on. I WAS THERE; many Iranians on the street were happy about these reforms and not so happy after his overthrow. What was one of the first things that transpired AFTER his overthrow? The museums were ransacked and EVERY animal in the zoo was killed, mutilated and left in the sun. And on and on....Contrary to eh MSM, it was NOT a one-sided picture. As only one example, a female acquatiance of mine who was a professor there was assasinated by the Ayotaollah's folks within days of the takeover along with most of her contemporaries. Typical for barbarians.

Some of those practices were begun by Mossedegh before the CIA and MI6 backed coup. There are a higher percentage of women attending university in Iran now than ever before in its history.

The problem with your Shah apologist approach is that you forget the history. The Ayotollah is not who began the revolution. In fact, he came and consolidated power later and much to the chagrin of some in Iran. The Shah had built quite a list of enemies by 1978. The Revolution of 1979 included moderate Democrats like Bazargan, Islamic Leftists, Islamic Rightists (the Ayatollah), and socialists.

While the Shah's country was crumbling due to his horrible economics and significant corruption, the Shah was holding $120 million parties - sometimes in regions of his country that were suffering terribly. It wasn't just the poor that saw this, but the middle class, and the religious noted that he drank alcohol with his foreign dignitary friends (often westerners including Americans). Meanwhile, SAVAK tortured, raped, murdered, or just beat the hell out of opponents and it became more routine and more open.

The major opposition at first came not from radical Islam, not from communists, but from liberals (in the European sense of the word) and middle class shopkeepers who were suffering from rapid inflation as the oil boom that the Shah promised would make them all wealthy only led them to poverty and more repression. They worked out of Turkey, Britain, France, and Iraq.

At the time many thought that Khoemeni would form a religious center in Qom, sort of a Vatican for Shi'a Islam (though that isn't the best parallel). It was only later that they saw the more ruthless side of the Islamic Right movement and his popularity with the people of Iran and the popularity for an Islamic Republic.

But to be an apologist for the Shah is to see Iran from a truly colonial view. It is no different than those who are apologists for Pinochet, the Perons, Franco, and the Duvaliers. Sure, there were some who loved these guys. There were people who loved Saddam Hussein and he indeed had Western style reforms in Iraq.

But ultimately the Shah was a terrible individual who led a ruthless regime that benefitted very few (though some defense contractors in the US were among them). He certainly had little respect for his own people, or human beings in general.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

The_Professor

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Re: Siding with the Sunni
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2007, 06:01:03 PM »
And I see you have been tainted by liberalism (in the American sense).

Liberals get all bent out of shape when a leader introduces reforms and there are some bumps in the road along the way. No one said the Shah was an angel, but, given time, he would have made Iran a very differenet, e.g. more modern, nation than it is today.

So, let's see. You have a backward nation. A leader comes in and tries to bring it into the 2th century and, wham, he gets slammed for it.

Would I have liked to see a more benevolent Shah? Yep. But, given time, he would have made Iran a better nation than it is today. And, contrary to your assertions, much about Iran's true history has been irrevocably lost due to the events following his demise. An anthropology professor of mine continually laments the artifacts that were destroyed during the aftermath of his fall. Artifacts, and the associated history, that will NEVER be seen again. Did you know that most of the oaks in the country were cut down and bunend during that time since they "stood for the Shah", beautiful tall majestic oaks, zoos were destroyed and their denizens slaughtered, musemus ransacked and burnt to the ground, parks literally uprooted and salted. And on and on. So, liberals, let's see you defend THAT.

Oh, yeah, much better today... <rant over>
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gipper

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Re: Siding with the Sunni
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2007, 06:08:41 PM »
How many shah-terminated lives and how much stunted, mangled devlopment are those things you list worth, Professor?

The_Professor

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Re: Siding with the Sunni
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2007, 01:01:38 PM »
Gimme a break, gipper. Don't be naive.


Just remember, sometimes, you ACTUALLY DO post some good stuff. Don't mess with your average here.

Tell you what: I'll help you get into Mensa. see http://www.mensa.org/  To go here, you select START...PROGRAMS...Internet Explorer. You use your left mosue button, you know, the button on the LEFT of that roundish thingy attached to a thin cord...

Oops, sorry, can't do that. They expect IQs larger than the number of Cialis you take every day.

<just kidding of course>
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                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D

_JS

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Re: Siding with the Sunni
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2007, 03:37:50 PM »
I think Domer's question is valid Professor.

I'm not "tainted by liberalism." I'm just spelling out the facts of the Iranian Revolution of 1979. You'll notice that nowhere do I insist that Khoemeni was somehow a huge success in terms of human rights. I'm just telling you why the Shah was deposed and that history (real history, not revisionist garbage) shows that it was the middle class that first openly rebelled against the Shah. That should not come as a surprise considering that SAVAK had suppressed many of the other groups you'd be more likely to suspect of open rebellion.

Your theory is interesting because it is exactly what Stalin apologists use as well.

Quote
So, let's see. You have a backward nation. A leader comes in and tries to bring it into the 2[0]th century and, wham, he gets slammed for it.

That is exactly what Stalin did in Russia and without a doubt he modernised the country into an industrial state from its former near-feudal agricultural foundation. By your apologist notions that makes both Stalin and the Shah some sort of heroes, despite the blood that had to be shed by those who interfered with the modernisation process.

The problem of course is that Iran was not as backward as you make them out to be, nor are they as backward today as you make them out to be. You deal in your created worldview and not reality. You think the revolution was just because the Shah was a "mean guy." It was much more than that, which I tried to explain, yet you simply chalk it up to being "tainted by liberalism." That makes discussing history with you impossible when things that disrupt your created worldview are simply discounted as being "tainted."

I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Michael Tee

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Re: Siding with the Sunni
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2007, 10:43:20 PM »
"some bumps in the road"

They found guys whose eyeballs had been sliced open with razor blades.  That's some fucking "bump," Professor.  How much "progress" is THAT worth?  You sound more like Faust than an American academic.

The Shah and every CIA-backed crony who supported him should have been sentenced to death and strung up.  Instead Carter let him into the U.S. on "compassionate" grounds for cancer treatment.  Smart move.  But "they hate us for our freedoms."  Yeah, right.

For what it's worth, I wasn't there.  But I know plenty who were.  And, yes, I'll admit, lots of them are pretty nostalgic for "the good old days."  They were an elite, a small percentage of the general population.  They enjoyed the benefits of the Shah's regime and they didn't give a shit about its victims.   I think under Mossadegh, they would have enjoyed a more equitably distributed prosperity, and also the same degree of modernization in their lives, including relative freedom for women.  The Shah was not the only modernizing force in Iran - - the Tudeh (Iranian Communist Party) was also a powerful liberating force for women, for Westernization and for freedom from Islamic fundamentalism.

It's a sign of moral decadence and a huge decline in American public morality that the Shah found support in America.  He was one of the world's worst tyrants and criminals, his "modernization" such as it was was no different than the "economic miracle" that Adolf Hitler and the Nazis accomplished in "liberating" Germany from the "chaos" of the Weimar Republic.  Neither the Shah nor Hitler held any monopoly on modernization and there's no way they should be accorded sole credit for it.  It has a force of its own and was well under way before the Shah's return to power.   

We also tend to lose sight of the fact that Iran is thousands of years old.  It did not need "civilizing" influences from anyone, least of all from the CIA, the Anglo-Persian Oil Company and their puppet Shah.


The_Professor

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Re: Siding with the Sunni
« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2007, 10:50:33 PM »
"That makes discussing history with you impossible when things that disrupt your created worldview are simply discounted as being "tainted.""

Sorry you feel like that, but I politely disagree with YOUR worldview.

See what typically happens is that liberals try to tell us conservatives that we look at politics too simply when it REALLY is that liberals inject too many irrelevant issues in to their worldview. Sirs has been trying to tell some of you that, but you are not listening.

Sometimes, the simpler explanation IS the correct one. Injecting irrelevant variables may seem "intellectual" whereas it is actually erroneous.

I suggest you read these books on the Best Sellers list. They might EXPAND your worldview. They present simple yet effective solutions. I read them this afternoon at Books A Million. And in order to do THAT, do what I did, read http://www.amazon.com/Breakthrough-Rapid-Reading-Peter-Kump/dp/073520019X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-1097588-7222452?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1186537735&sr=1-1

If you don't have the cash, I will send you an extra copy I have.

The books are:
http://www.amazon.com/Final-Move-Beyond-Iraq-Solution/dp/1599791889/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b/104-0982662-3601512
and
http://www.amazon.com/Showdown-Nuclear-Iran-Radical-Messianic/dp/1595550755
« Last Edit: August 07, 2007, 10:53:16 PM by The_Professor »
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                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D

_JS

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Re: Siding with the Sunni
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2007, 09:33:56 AM »
You want me to read a book titled Showdown with Nuclear Iran: Radical Islam's Messianic Mission to Destroy Israel and Cripple the United States? Jerome Corsi, one of the books authors, was author of Unfit for Command, the book about John Kerry that he worked with the "Swift Boat Veterans for the Truth" to "fact-check."

And here are some select quotes from Jerome Corsi, that paragon of academia:

Quote
Corsi on Islam and Arabs:

CORSI: Let's see exactly why it isn't the case that Islam is a worthless, dangerous Satanic religion? Where's the proof to the contrary? (04/24/2004)

CORSI: Islam is like a virus -- it affects the mind -- maybe even better as an analogy -- it is a cancer that destroys the body it infects... No doctor would hesitate to eliminate cancer cells from the body. (11/26/02)

CORSI: Islam is a peaceful religion as long as the women are beaten, the boys buggered, and the infidels killed. (11/22/2002)

CORSI: How's this as an analogy -- the Koran is simply the "software" for producing deviant cancer cell political behavior and violence in human beings. (02/15/2002)

CORSI: Think the liberal press will ever let out that these 2 were lovers -- typical Islamic boy-buggering -- older man, younger man -- black Muslims? I doubt it. Not a pretty picture, but one certain to be hidden by PC media. (11/08/2002)

CORSI: Isn't the Democratic Party the official SODOMIZER PROTECTION ASSOCIATION of AMERICA -- oh, I forgot, it was just an accident that Clintoon's first act in office was to promote "gays in the military." RAGHEADS are Boy-Bumpers as clearly as they are Women-Haters -- it all goes together. (11/18/2001)

Quote
Corsi on Catholicism:

CORSI: Maybe while he's there he can tell the UN what he's going to do about the sexual crimes committed by "priests" in his "Church" during his tenure. Or, maybe that's the connection -- boy buggering in both Islam and Catholicism is okay with the Pope as long as it isn't reported by the liberal press. (03/03/2003)

CORSI: So this is what the last days of the Catholic Church are going to look like. Buggering boys undermines the moral base and the laywers rip the gold off the Vatican altars. We may get one more Pope, when this senile one dies, but that's probably about it. (12/16/2002)

Quote
And a few extras:

Corsi on "John F*ing Commie Kerry": "After he married TerRAHsa, didn't John Kerry begin practicing Judiasm? He also has paternal grandparents that were Jewish. What religion is John Kerry?"

Corsi on Senator "FAT HOG" Clinton: "Anybody ask why HELLary couldn't keep BJ Bill satisfied? Not lesbo or anything, is she?"


Professor, I studied history under some really intelligent folks at university. If you and Sirs wish to keep things "simple" and snicker at the intellectuals that is well within your rights I suppose. But don't expect me to buy into that anti-intellectual claptrap like Jerome Corsi telling me that Islam is a cancer and no one should think twice to remove it. I recognize a Fascist when I see one.




I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.