Author Topic: " Is Everybody Gay?"- Nope just all the Gross Old Pervs party, it seems  (Read 6626 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: " Is Everybody Gay?"- Nope just all the Gross Old Pervs party, it seems
« Reply #30 on: September 03, 2007, 09:44:58 PM »
<<Rubbish1. If DoMA is by definition anti gay . . . >>

What do you mean, IF DoMA is anti-gay?  If I understand your position correctly, DoMA has to be anti-gay, otherwise the Democrats who claim the Republicans are sexual hypocrites are themselves sexual hypocrites for having supported DoMA and/or Clinton (who backed DoMA.)  You seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth at the same time - - DoMA is anti-gay (therefore Democrats are hypocrites) and DoMA is not anti-gay, because if it is anti-gay, then the (Republican) Constitutional Amendment is also anti-gay.

So maybe you had better start by talking out of one side of your mouth only - - is DoMA anti-gay or not?

<<then democrats who as a party define themselves as pro gay are the bigger hypocrites.>>

I'll agree with you as far as this:  a Democratic legislator who voted for DoMA or a Democratic activist who campaigned for DoMA has no right to call the Republicans hypocrites, except in the sense that a pot can still call the kettle black as a matter of fact (both of them being hypocrites, or one of them being the bigger hypocrite.) 

But I think it's being overly simplistic to assume that there can be no degrees of anti-gay activity, that a party which has supported DoMA is necessarily just as anti-gay as a party which not only (a) supported DoMA, (b) proposed and fought for a Constitutional Amendment to define marriage as implicitly heterosexual, (c) impugned the "family values" and "moral laxity" of the opposite party.  IMHO, we have one party which succumbed to a terrible lapse and enacted a non-binding Federal law having little effect on the ultimate right of a gay person to marry and on the other hand a party which made anti-gay legislation a cornerstone of its platform, including a constitutional amendment which would have directly impinged on the civil rights of the gay community.

To pretend that both parties are equally guilty is ludicrous.  It's like pretending that Joe Blow, who once complained that the fucking Jews owned all the banks, is as guilty of anti-Semitism as Adolf Hitler, and is equally complicit with him in the Holocaust.   You are unable to distinguish between a party which pandered to a prevailing anti-gay mood by enacting a token law, and a party which made anti-gay legislation a cornerstone of its policy.

So lets just stop this nonsense.

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: " Is Everybody Gay?"- Nope just all the Gross Old Pervs party, it seems
« Reply #31 on: September 03, 2007, 10:48:23 PM »
Quote
So lets just stop this nonsense.

Right

Gay witchhunts falsely masked as hypocrite hunts is total nonsense.

Let's just call it what it is.

Gay bashing

And Knutey and Rogers should be ashamed.

If they are capable of such an emotion.




Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: " Is Everybody Gay?"- Nope just all the Gross Old Pervs party, it seems
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2007, 01:47:40 AM »
<<Gay witchhunts falsely masked as hypocrite hunts is total nonsense.

<<Let's just call it what it is.

<<Gay bashing>>
************************************

That's outrageous.  It is the Republican party which made a career and a platform out of gay-bashing.  It's one of the strongest planks in their platform.  And when the hypocritical bastards are exposed again and again and again for the frauds and hypocrites that they are, it is fraud-bashing and it is hypocrite-bashing but it is NOT gay-bashing.

Labelling the exposure of Republican fraud and hypocrisy "gay-bashing" is a pathetic defensive manoeuvre that fools nobody. 

And the condemnation of Republican hypocrisy and fraud  is not going to stop.  There is no good reason for it to stop.

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: " Is Everybody Gay?"- Nope just all the Gross Old Pervs party, it seems
« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2007, 02:02:45 AM »
<<Gay witchhunts falsely masked as hypocrite hunts is total nonsense.
<<Let's just call it what it is.
<<Gay bashing>>
************************************
That's outrageous.  It is the Republican party which made a career and a platform out of gay-bashing.  It's one of the strongest planks in their platform.  And when the hypocritical bastards are exposed again and again and again for the frauds and hypocrites that they are, it is fraud-bashing and it is hypocrite-bashing but it is NOT gay-bashing.

And some examples of this official platformed party position of "gay bashing" would be..................?

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: " Is Everybody Gay?"- Nope just all the Gross Old Pervs party, it seems
« Reply #34 on: September 04, 2007, 07:15:08 AM »
Quote
That's outrageous.  It is the Republican party which made a career and a platform out of gay-bashing.  It's one of the strongest planks in their platform.

Actually it isn't.

Let's look at earlier examples of outings as smears.

Candace Gingrich, step sister of Newt, was used as a political wedge, not because of some stance by Newt but because some folks thought her gayness would damage Newt in the hinterlands. Pre DoMA, pre MArriage Amendment, her homosexuality was the issue, not any action on Newts part.

And then there is Mary Cheney. Dick Cheney himself is in favor of civil unions, but that wasn't enough to stop people including John Edwards, who famously said "he doesn't get those people" from placing her sexual preferences front and center.

The only conclusion i can come to is that the gayness must be the problem. That being gay is somehow bad.

And for that to come from the side that "champions gay rights" that seems odd.

« Last Edit: September 04, 2007, 07:18:06 AM by BT »

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: " Is Everybody Gay?"- Nope just all the Gross Old Pervs party, it seems
« Reply #35 on: September 04, 2007, 07:26:57 AM »
McCarthyism' By Liberal Gay Bloggers?

That's the accusation leveled by Republican strategist Mike Murphy yesterday on "Meet The Press" in reaction to the resignation of Sen. Larry Craig, R-Idaho, because of a scandal involving alleged solicitation of another man in a public restroom.

Raw Story called attention to Murphy's comments. Here are quotes from the segment:

    I think Craig is an unsympathetic figure. But there has been this case of bloggers on the far left trying to expose closeted politicians if they don't fall completely into lockstep with a certain liberal gay agenda. And I think that's unfair. It?s a form of McCarthyism, really. ...

    [T]here is a tendency to apply an identity politics test now, which, which has a real chilling effect on politics, that somebody?s private life has -- or their, their race or their gender or their orientation -- has to dictate where they stand politically. If you're a woman, you have to be a pro-choice Democrat. I mean, that calculation cheapens politics, and it's unfair to people in public life who do have private lives.

A day after Murphy's appearance, liberal gay blogger John Aravosis asked this question in an inflammatory post at Americablog: "Is Senator Lindsey Graham Violating Don't Ask, Don't Tell?"

The entry resurrected what Aravosis admitted is "longtime unconfirmed speculation" about Graham's sexual preferences and said Graham "sounds like a flaming gay" who should be investigated by the Air Force before being allowed to serve as part of the reserve in Iraq.


http://beltwayblogroll.nationaljournal.com/archives/2007/09/mccarthyism_by.php

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: " Is Everybody Gay?"- Nope just all the Gross Old Pervs party, it seems
« Reply #36 on: September 04, 2007, 07:28:36 AM »
Arrianna Agrees:

In the Age of Terror, Isn't Busting Toe-Tappers an Insane Use of Our Law Enforcement Resources?

Posted September 3, 2007 | 05:18 PM (EST)
Read More: Breaking Politics News, Larry Craig, Arianna Huffington, U.S. Senate, Mark Steyn


In the consensus judgment of America's 16 intelligence agencies, the terrorist threat to our homeland is "persistent and evolving," placing our country in "a heightened threat environment."

   
Given that chilling assessment, isn't it the height of madness to use America's finite law enforcement resources to seek out and arrest people for tapping the foot of a cute undercover officer in a restroom?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not wild about walking into a public restroom and seeing a couple using the a stall for something other than, as Sgt. Dave Karsnia, the arresting officer in the Craig case put it, "its intended use."

But that is not what Larry Craig did. If he had, someone in the restroom could have done what most people do when they see a law being broken: go get a cop.

And as it happens, since Craig was arrested in an airport, presumably there were plenty of law enforcement officers nearby looking for, you know, real threats -- like explosives or folks on a Watch List. Assuming, that is, they weren't all hunkered down in other bathrooms across the airport, protecting the public against people who might be thinking about having sex.

Let me be clear: I'm no fan of Larry Craig. Indeed, I disagree with almost everything he stands for. And I'd much rather he not be in the United States Senate. But I'd also rather have had his exit be the result of his constituents voting on his ideas and policies, instead of a ridiculous sting operation in an airport bathroom.

At least it's nice to see that, while the cable networks have been giving the incident their usual nuanced treatment, bloggers across the political spectrum have taken a step back to look at the real issues here.

Garance Franke-Ruta of The American Prospect asks: "Was there anything criminal about Sen. Larry Craig's gestures if they suggested a desire for consensual lewd behavior of some kind with the man in the adjacent restroom stall?" Her answer: no.

Conservative University of Minnesota law professor Dale Carpenter, blogging at the Volokh Conspiracy, agrees with her:

    "Disorderly conduct is a notoriously nebulous crime, allowing police wide discretion in making arrests and charges for conduct or speech that is little more than bothersome to police or to others."



As Carpenter and Franke-Ruta both point out, soliciting someone to have sex with you is not a crime in Minnesota. If Craig had solicited someone, which then led to a round of bathroom sex, then yes, arrest them. But that's not what happened.

It's unsettling that more people here in the land of the free aren't at all discomfited at leaving it up to the prognostication skills of Sgt. Karsnia and his crack team of B-men to determine what crimes people might have committed if not for the mind-reading and daring-do of Minneapolis' Special Forces Bathroom Unit.


Conservative pundit Mark Steyn thinks that Craig was up to no good, but says, "Karsnia sounds just as weird and creepy: a guy who's paid to sit in a bathroom stall for hours on end observing adjoining ankles. I'd rather hand out traffic tickets."

But beyond them being weird and creepy, these kinds of stings also have a huge opportunity cost to them. There clearly are very serious potential threats to our safety to be found in airports -- outside of bathroom stalls. Is sending Sgt. Karsnia into the men's room to spend all day trying to get other men to look at him and tap his foot really the best way to use our limited law enforcement resources?

And just how much money is Minneapolis/St. Paul spending on sting operations like this one? Just since May, 40 men have been arrested on allegations of illegal sexual activity at the same airport. And how much taxpayer money in total is being allocated across the country by local police to protect us from people whom the Sgt. Karsnias of the world think might, at some point, commit a crime?

We at HuffPost are working to pull these numbers together by calling local police departments all across America, since the numbers don't seem to be readily available. We'd love your help on this; please send us any figures or worthwhile information you can find (post them in the comments section below or email max@huffingtonpost.com).

Here's another question to ask: does the Minneapolis police force look around its members for officers they think might be attractive to gay men? Or do they specifically search out recruits who would make good undercover "twinks," "bears," and "silver foxes"?

And, yes, I know, Sen. Craig pleaded guilty. But given the inevitable humiliation that would have ensued had he challenged this arrest, it's not hard to imagine that he felt he had no other choice. The same goes for the thousands of other men who have been snared in these wasteful sting operations.

But those of us who prefer that our public servants go after actual lawbreakers rather than use our resources to humiliate gay people do have a choice. And we should make it clear that we want our police going after terrorists -- not toe-tappers.

Since the news about Craig broke, the media focus has been on his sexual perversions -- it's time to turn the spotlight on the perverted priorities of America's law enforcement community.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/in-the-age-of-terror-isn_b_62928.html?view=print
« Last Edit: September 04, 2007, 07:30:52 AM by BT »

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: " Is Everybody Gay?"- Nope just all the Gross Old Pervs party, it seems
« Reply #37 on: September 04, 2007, 11:35:51 AM »
<<And some examples of this official platformed party position of "gay bashing" would be..................?>>

The Constitutional Amendment would be the only answer necessary.  For a little icing on the cake, try the Republican position on family values, which they all seem to emphasize in their campaign materials.  And see which way Focus on the Family and other right-wing homophobic organizations lean in their endorsements.

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: " Is Everybody Gay?"- Nope just all the Gross Old Pervs party, it seems
« Reply #38 on: September 04, 2007, 12:00:07 PM »
So, in other words, Tee has no "examples" of official party "Gay-bashing" positions, simply sophistry and applied hyperbole.  Kinda what I thought
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: " Is Everybody Gay?"- Nope just all the Gross Old Pervs party, it seems
« Reply #39 on: September 04, 2007, 12:13:41 PM »
<<So, in other words, Tee has no "examples" of official party "Gay-bashing" positions, simply sophistry and applied hyperbole.  Kinda what I thought>>

Some people think that when a Party's position (on, say, the Constitutional Amendment) becomes a plank in the Party Platform, that makes it "official," but I forgot for a moment that I was dealing with the loony Republican right wing, where words take on their own meaning as circumstances dictate, and apparently, planks in the party platform are no longer "official" party positions.

sirs, I salute you again.  I can never win against an opponent like you.  (Unless first I invent my own language.)

Amianthus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7574
  • Bring on the flames...
    • View Profile
    • Mario's Home Page
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: " Is Everybody Gay?"- Nope just all the Gross Old Pervs party, it seems
« Reply #40 on: September 04, 2007, 12:26:02 PM »
Some people think that when a Party's position (on, say, the Constitutional Amendment) becomes a plank in the Party Platform, that makes it "official,"

Only if you consider the DoMA to be gay-bashing. Many do not.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: " Is Everybody Gay?"- Nope just all the Gross Old Pervs party, it seems
« Reply #41 on: September 04, 2007, 01:08:17 PM »
I consider both DoMA and the failed Constitutional Amendment to be outrageous examples of gay-bashing.  The ONLY purpose of either one of them is to deny gay people a Constitutional equality right.

And I think it's hilarious to see the Republican Party doubling over to bite its own ass, now complaining not only of "homophobia" but also "McCarthyism."  LMFAO.  Whoever woulda thunk?  This whole symbiotic relationship of Republicans and closet gays may well usher in a new era of tolerance and respect.  Truth certainly is stranger than fiction.

Amianthus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7574
  • Bring on the flames...
    • View Profile
    • Mario's Home Page
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: " Is Everybody Gay?"- Nope just all the Gross Old Pervs party, it seems
« Reply #42 on: September 04, 2007, 01:46:29 PM »
I consider both DoMA and the failed Constitutional Amendment to be outrageous examples of gay-bashing.  The ONLY purpose of either one of them is to deny gay people a Constitutional equality right.

And you're allowed to have to have your own opinion. Doesn't mean it's automatically "the truth."
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: " Is Everybody Gay?"- Nope just all the Gross Old Pervs party, it seems
« Reply #43 on: September 04, 2007, 02:11:14 PM »
I consider both DoMA and the failed Constitutional Amendment to be outrageous examples of gay-bashing.  The ONLY purpose of either one of them is to deny gay people a Constitutional equality right.

And you're allowed to have to have your own opinion. Doesn't mean it's automatically "the truth."

And boy, ain't that the truth
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27916
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: " Is Everybody Gay?"- Nope just all the Gross Old Pervs party, it seems
« Reply #44 on: September 04, 2007, 05:45:21 PM »
Perhaps one of you geniuses could 'splain to us why DOMA is not anti-gay?

Its intent and effect is to deny the various public and private perks of marriage to gays. It does not grant special rights to heterosexuals. It does not change any rights of heterosexuals at all. It only denies equal rights.

You could explain why this is not so, but I doubt that either of you is capable of this.

Try anyway.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."