Author Topic: NYT editor slams paper over 'General Betray Us' ad  (Read 2745 times)

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Amianthus

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NYT editor slams paper over 'General Betray Us' ad
« on: September 23, 2007, 10:04:28 PM »
(CNN) -- The public editor for The New York Times slammed his employer Sunday in a column, saying the newspaper violated its policies by cutting MoveOn.org a deal on a controversial ad criticizing the top U.S. military commander in Iraq.

"I think the ad violated The Times' own written standards, and the paper now says that the advertiser got a price break it was not entitled to," wrote Clark Hoyt, who analyzes the newspaper's coverage as the "readers' representative."

The group, Hoyt wrote, paid $64,575, which is the paper's "standby" rate -- meaning it cannot guarantee placement on a certain day.

The group wanted it to run on September 10, the day Gen. David Petraeus testified to Congress about the state of affairs in Iraq. The ad did run on that date, meaning MoveOn should have paid $142,083, he wrote.

In response, MoveOn announced it was never told of the error but will retroactively pay the higher rate -- even though it says the higher figure "is above the market rate paid by most" organizations.

The liberal advocacy group challenged former New York mayor and current Republican presidential hopeful Rudy Giuliani -- who paid the same lower rate for his response ad -- to follow its lead.

The New York Times said it had erred. Spokeswoman Catherine Mathis said the paper's earlier insistence that MoveOn had paid the standard rate was incorrect.

"We do not, however, determine rates based on the political content of ads, and Times Company personnel did not review this ad until after the rate was accepted," she said. "Nonetheless, we made an error and were slow to respond when asked about it. We apologize."

MoveOn, in a statement, noted "there is no evidence of any kind that the error in quoting of rates was in any way based on the content of the advertisement or the identity of its sponsor."

Hoyt, while taking his paper to task, did not suggest it was the result of partisanship.

"The Times bends over backward to accommodate advocacy ads, including ads from groups with which the newspaper disagrees editorially," he wrote.

Hoyt based his assertion about an alleged violation of the paper's standards on an "an internal advertising acceptability manual" he quoted as saying, "We do not accept opinion advertisements that are attacks of a personal nature."

But he noted the executive who approved the ad "said that, while it was 'rough,' he regarded it as a comment on a public official's management of his office and therefore acceptable speech for The Times to print."

The full-page ad did not address Petraeus' personal life.

Titled "General Petraeus or General Betray Us?" the ad called Petraeus "a military man constantly at war with the facts," and cited previous quotes of his, contrasting them against quotes from independent reports and news stories.

The ad became the focus of political partisanship as soon as it was published.

During Petraeus' testimony, Republican lawmakers highlighted the ad and pressed their Democratic counterparts to condemn it, in what analysts said was a political strategy to try to force Democrats to risk losing either the support of those who admire the highly decorated general or those who agree with MoveOn.

Last week, President Bush called the ad "disgusting."

Eli Pariser, the executive director of MoveOn.org Political Action Committee, which claims to be one of the largest PAC's in the nation, responded to the president. "What's disgusting is that the president has more interest in political attacks than developing an exit strategy to get our troops out of Iraq and end this awful war," he said.

The Senate last week approved a resolution condemning the ad, 72-25. "This amendment gives our colleagues a chance to distance themselves from these despicable tactics, distance themselves from the notion that some group literally has them on a leash, like a puppet on a string," said Republican Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell of Kentucky.

Republicans filibustered a Democratic proposal that also condemned GOP attacks on former Sen. Max Cleland of Georgia and Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts during his 2004 presidential campaign.

Sen. Hillary Clinton, front-runner for the Democratic presidential nomination, pointed that out Sunday.

On CNN's "Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer," she was asked about Bush's assertion that Democrats "are more afraid of irritating [groups such as Moveon.org] than they are of irritating the United States military. That was a sorry deal."

"I thought it was pretty sorry when his campaign attacked Senator Kerry's record of service, and I thought it was pretty sorry when the Republicans attacked Senator Cleland," she said. "I don't condone attacks by anyone on the patriotism and service of our military. I am an admirer of General Petraeus ... and I joined in voting for a resolution that condemned such attacks."

But, she said, some are trying to focus the nation's attention on the ad "in order to avoid having to deal with the tough questions about our policy in Iraq."

"This debate should be about the president's failed policies," Clinton said. "The Republicans are very good at coming up with political strategies, but unfortunately, they don't seem to have a very adequate grasp of military or geopolitical strategies that will forward America's standing, position, values and interests in the world."
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/23/nyt.moveon/index.html?eref=rss_topstories
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sirs

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Re: NYT editor slams paper over 'General Betray Us' ad
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2007, 10:20:04 PM »
Hillary was the 1st Dem with any cahones to actually go on Fox News, and was interviewed by Chris Wallace.  Outside of her laugh, which seemed kinda forced, she stuck to her talking points like honey on a tree (And many republicans do the same thing). 

The worst exerpt (IMHO) however came when Wallace asked if she would publically condemn the MoveOn ad.  She pulled out the CAIR tactic, when they're asked if they condemn Islamic terrorist attacks on civilians.  They never respond in saying yes, they always respond in saying something along the lines of "We condemn all terrorist attacks, including what Israel is doing" thus immediately bringing Israel into the conversation while ignoring the specific question.  Clinton would not, could not, refused, to condemn the MoveOn ad, despite being asked twice.  She instead responded by saying she codemns any ad "attacking" any veteren, and promptly mentioned Max Cleland & John Kerry.  As if criticising a politician's positions on issues equated to condemning their actions as a soldier as betraying their country

It was beyond egregious...........BUT............. she did go on Fox News, to her credit.
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: NYT editor slams paper over 'General Betray Us' ad
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2007, 11:44:26 PM »
<<The worst exerpt (IMHO) however came when Wallace asked if she would publically condemn the MoveOn ad.  She pulled out the CAIR tactic, when they're asked if they condemn Islamic terrorist attacks on civilians.  They never respond in saying yes, they always respond in saying something along the lines of "We condemn all terrorist attacks, including what Israel is doing" thus immediately bringing Israel into the conversation while ignoring the specific question.  Clinton would not, could not, refused, to condemn the MoveOn ad, despite being asked twice.  She instead responded by saying she codemns any ad "attacking" any veteren, and promptly mentioned Max Cleland & John Kerry.  >>

I think that's very wise of her.  The question itself tried to manipulate her into condemning ONLY the MoveOn ad.  If she'd fallen into the trap, she would be condemning MoveOn without saying one negative thing about the opposite side, which trashed the war records and patriotism of Kerry and Cleland.  So the net effect of a "Yes" answer by Hillary would have been a plus for Republicans - - no hits on them and one hit on pro-Democratic organization which many voters associate with the party itself.  This BTW is the same tactic that you complain of when someone is asked if they condemn a Muslim "terrorist" attack - - why condemn one side but not the other when both commit terrorist attacks?

I think what you missed is that the question itself is manipulative and seeks to put her in the position of attacking only one side for something that BOTH sides are doing.  Your real complaint is that Hillary is too smart for the Fox interviewer and did not fall into the trap he set for her.  Besides which, her answer DOES answer the question, since if she condemns all attacks on veterans, she must condemn the MoveOn attack on Betray Us, oops, I mean Petraeus.  Good for Hillary.

<<As if criticising a politician's positions on issues equated to condemning their actions as a soldier as betraying their country>>

IIRC, both the attacks on Cleland and Kerry included attacks on their patriotism as well as on their war records and even their war wounds.  So of course it is hypocritical in the extreme when Republicans get their knickers in a twist over the slur on Petraeus or Betray Us or . . . aww, hell, you know who I mean.

yellow_crane

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Re: NYT editor slams paper over 'General Betray Us' ad
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2007, 12:51:46 AM »
Hillary was the 1st Dem with any cahones to actually go on Fox News, and was interviewed by Chris Wallace.  Outside of her laugh, which seemed kinda forced, she stuck to her talking points like honey on a tree (And many republicans do the same thing). 

The worst exerpt (IMHO) however came when Wallace asked if she would publically condemn the MoveOn ad.  She pulled out the CAIR tactic, when they're asked if they condemn Islamic terrorist attacks on civilians.  They never respond in saying yes, they always respond in saying something along the lines of "We condemn all terrorist attacks, including what Israel is doing" thus immediately bringing Israel into the conversation while ignoring the specific question.  Clinton would not, could not, refused, to condemn the MoveOn ad, despite being asked twice.  She instead responded by saying she codemns any ad "attacking" any veteren, and promptly mentioned Max Cleland & John Kerry.  As if criticising a politician's positions on issues equated to condemning their actions as a soldier as betraying their country

It was beyond egregious...........BUT............. she did go on Fox News, to her credit.



MoveOn issued their statement, they are sticking to their guns.

They also promised to deal with the Democrats who voted to censure them.

 MoveOn's refusal to belly up is concurrent with a whole host of pro-activist positions now being taken by the rank and file, since they realized that the Dems they elected last time to end the war are now playing golf with both the other side and the Joe Liebermans of the party.

Hillary lacks vision.  She does not want the change desired by Edwards, Kucinich, or Obama; she just wants a rotation of payrolls.

Asking Hillary what she thinks of MoveON is off the issue.  MoveOn's ad was no roman candle--it was even mild compared to the ads placed by Alice Walton and the producers of Swiftboat.  One must remember that John Kerry did nothing to answer those attacks.  The main stream media blew this up big, and ran about demanding that all Democrats denounce the harmless ad or suffer the paparazzi approach they had taken.  Hillary should have defended MoveON and not cowered.  Instead, she sold out.  I await for a Democrat to respond by pointing out that not only it is not a big deal, it is also been used as a vehicle by the main stream media and that furthur they were not going to chase that stick.  That is who is going to get my vote.

BT

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Re: NYT editor slams paper over 'General Betray Us' ad
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2007, 01:15:01 AM »
I am amused that you are  linking Alice Walton, twice removed from the Swift Boat ads, yet breathe hardly a word that George Soros is a main contributor to Move On.

Why is that?



Michael Tee

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Re: NYT editor slams paper over 'General Betray Us' ad
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2007, 01:26:24 AM »
<<MoveOn issued their statement, they are sticking to their guns.

<<They also promised to deal with the Democrats who voted to censure them. >>

I am really glad to hear that, it speaks well for MoveOn. 

Hillary's becoming a disgrace and an embarrassment.

BT

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Re: NYT editor slams paper over 'General Betray Us' ad
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2007, 01:40:21 AM »
Quote
Hillary's becoming a disgrace and an embarrassment.

It's always fun watching the pouters trash their best hope.

The betterpresident would be Richardson, but Hillary has the best chance to win.

And as we have seen since Nov 06 winning is where it is at.

By all means necessary


sirs

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Re: NYT editor slams paper over 'General Betray Us' ad
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2007, 02:51:42 AM »
<<The worst exerpt (IMHO) however came when Wallace asked if she would publically condemn the MoveOn ad.  She pulled out the CAIR tactic, when they're asked if they condemn Islamic terrorist attacks on civilians.  They never respond in saying yes, they always respond in saying something along the lines of "We condemn all terrorist attacks, including what Israel is doing" thus immediately bringing Israel into the conversation while ignoring the specific question.  Clinton would not, could not, refused, to condemn the MoveOn ad, despite being asked twice.  She instead responded by saying she codemns any ad "attacking" any veteren, and promptly mentioned Max Cleland & John Kerry.  >>

I think that's very wise of her.  The question itself tried to manipulate her into condemning ONLY the MoveOn ad.  

Actually it was very politically cowardly of her.  There was no manipulation, since she could have INCLUDED the MoveOn ad, when she was complaining about the ads aimed at Kerry & Cleland.  But no, she chose to dodge it, twice, for what one can only deduce as her apparent fear of alieanting the rabid left of the party that's providing so much in the say of big $$$$$ signs


If she'd fallen into the trap, she would be condemning MoveOn without saying one negative thing about the opposite side, which trashed the war records and patriotism of Kerry and Cleland.  

As I just demonstrated there was no "either/or" applied or mandated in the question.  She could have included (which she did) her criticisms of the ads that were aimed at Kerry and Cleland (that incidently had ZIP to do with their patriotism), along with condemnation of the MoveOn ad.  She instead went coward, and only talked about the "negative things about the opposite side"


I think what you missed is that the question itself is manipulative and seeks to put her in the position of attacking only one side for something that BOTH sides are doing. 

Now, I realize that you're even further left than MoveOn is, so your support of her lack of condemning them is no surprise.  The point being that there was nothing preventing her from criticsing "BOTH sides", but instead she only DID condemn the one side specifically by name, when referencing only Democrats being supposedly "attacked".


IIRC, both the attacks on Cleland and Kerry included attacks on their patriotism as well as on their war records and even their war wounds.  

Then you largely recall incorrectly.  What was occuring was the left trying to use their service as apparent immunity shields to criticism on their positions regarding the war


MoveOn issued their statement, they are sticking to their guns.  They also promised to deal with the Democrats who voted to censure them.  MoveOn's refusal to belly up is concurrent with a whole host of pro-activist positions now being taken by the rank and file, since they realized that the Dems they elected last time to end the war are now playing golf with both the other side and the Joe Liebermans of the party.

Which again helps reinforce the point that Hillary was more fearful of irritating the rabid left with so much mulah vs the soldiers in the field, and General Patraeus specfically.






"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: NYT editor slams paper over 'General Betray Us' ad
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2007, 08:16:11 AM »
<<But no, she chose to dodge it, twice, for what one can only deduce as her apparent fear of alieanting the rabid left of the party that's providing so much in the say of big $$$$$ signs>>

She dodged nothing.  She condemned all attacks on veterans.  The MoveOn ad was obviously an attack on a veteran.  Or are you claiming General Betray, ooops, Petraeus, is not a veteran?

<<She could have included (which she did) her criticisms of the ads that were aimed at Kerry and Cleland (that incidently had ZIP to do with their patriotism), along with condemnation of the MoveOn ad.  She instead went coward, and only talked about the "negative things about the opposite side">>

There you go again, re-casting reality to suit your own right-wing prejudices.  By condemning ALL attacks on veterans, how could she possibly be limiting her condemnation to the "negative things about the opposite side?"  Are you saying that the attack on General Betray Us was NOT an attack on a veteran?  And Kerry's and Cleland's patriotism were both attacked repeatedly by their Republican opponents.  Incidentally.

<<Now, I realize that you're even further left than MoveOn is, so your support of her lack of condemning them is no surprise.>>

Oh.  Then maybe you'd be surprised to see that since she DID condemn them, in this case I have nothing to support.  In fact, I condemn Hillary for not standing up for MoveOn.  If I had been in her shoes (speaking figuratively of course) and they had asked ME to condemn the MoveOn ad, I would have given them an earful that would have rocked them back on their heels.  The MoveOn ad is EXACTLY the tone that's needed in this debate.  Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel, and the scoundrels have been hiding under it for long enough.

<<  The point being that there was nothing preventing her from criticsing "BOTH sides", but instead she only DID condemn the one side specifically by name . . . >>

Now you're waffling.  First it's a blanket refusal to condemn that you are bitching about, now only a "refusal to condemn by name."  So you admit that she DID condemn MoveOn, only that she failed to name them.  I guess you figure the American public is just too fucking stupid to figure out (a) that Gen. Betrayus is a veteran and (b) that the MoveOn ad attacked him.  That's not very patriotic of you, insulting your fellow citizens like that.

<<Then you largely recall incorrectly[that Republicans attacked Kerry's and Cleland's patriotism.]  What was occuring was the left trying to use their service as apparent immunity shields to criticism on their positions regarding the war>>

Oh no you don't.  Not another whopper.  You can't stop, can you?  You're just like your "President," they spill out one after another, almost uncontrollably.  I've gotta run right now, big day ahead, but I'll come back to this later.  Kerry and Cleland never had their patriotism attacked?  LMFAO.  This is gonna be fun.

sirs

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Re: NYT editor slams paper over 'General Betray Us' ad
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2007, 04:36:32 PM »
<<But no, she chose to dodge it, twice, for what one can only deduce as her apparent fear of alieanting the rabid left of the party that's providing so much in the say of big $$$$$ signs>>

She dodged nothing.  She condemned all attacks on veterans. 

Obviously, you weren't paying attention.  You really need to develop a habit of actually viewing these stories, before spouting off some semantical based defence of the undefensible.  But as I've already referenced, it's understandible why.  She could have condemned all ads, and NOT mentioned those about her opponents, or she could have mentioned the specific ones in question, when condeming all ads, Move'on, the ones about Kerry, and the ones about Cleland.  She chose the corward's way out, condemning "all ads", but only singling out the ones that supposedly attacked her side, and refused to condemn MoveOn's.  $$$ speaks mightier than integrity over there in the Clinton camp, then again, that's no new headline either.


I've gotta run right now, big day ahead, but I'll come back to this later.  Kerry and Cleland never had their patriotism attacked?  LMFAO.  This is gonna be fun.

Ahhh, Tee going to aply his all or none principle again.  There were probably a few ads that went after Kerry and Cleland's patriotism.  And those would be condemned by all.  I, again, would be referencing the VAST majority of ads that had nothing to do with their service to their country, but were criticized none-the-less as doing such, because the ads were daring to criticize their positions on the war, as well as other issues.  THAT's not denigrating their service I'm afraid to say.  But hey, if it gives you glee to post some ads that we can all condemn, again, have at it
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: NYT editor slams paper over 'General Betray Us' ad
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2007, 06:24:48 PM »
It is stupid and infantile  to demand or ask that anyone condemn the statement of some third party. It serves no purpose whatever for Hillary to condemn MoveOn, and could only harm her campaign.

She is not my favorite candidate, but she is demonstrating an ability to be as good at campaigning as her hubby Bill, who was very good at it.



"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: NYT editor slams paper over 'General Betray Us' ad
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2007, 06:30:26 PM »
It is stupid and infantile  to demand or ask that anyone condemn the statement of some third party. It serves no purpose whatever for Hillary to condemn MoveOn, and could only harm her campaign.

LOL......BINGO  $$$$$$$$$  Can't be irritating the group providing such big bucks, regardless what planet they're from.  Give that man a cigar

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: NYT editor slams paper over 'General Betray Us' ad
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2007, 11:50:45 PM »
<<Obviously, you weren't paying attention. >>

Obviously you are full of shit.

<< You really need to develop a habit of actually viewing these stories, before spouting off some semantical based defence of the undefensible. >>

YAWWWNNN.

<< But as I've already referenced, it's understandible why. >>

Wake me up when you've got one intelligent comment to make.

<< She could have condemned all ads, and NOT mentioned those about her opponents, or she could have mentioned the specific ones in question, when condeming all ads, Move'on, the ones about Kerry, and the ones about Cleland.  >>

She could have condemned the Crucifixion and the Rape of Nanking too.  She could have condemned the demolition of the Third Avenue El and Global Warming.   She could have condemned the Holocaust.

<<She chose the corward's way out, condemning "all ads" . . . >>

What is so cowardly about condemning all ads, which obviously includes MoveOn's ad, which is the only one in the category of condemned ads coming from people who could pay a large part of her campaign expenses?

<< . . . but only singling out the ones that supposedly attacked her side . . . >>

Well, obviously they were the much more objectionable, since they attacked the war records of wounded veterans, and the only wound that Betrayus sustained, if he sustained any at all, would have been paper cuts from the papers in his files.

 <<and refused to condemn MoveOn's.  >>

Are you totally devoid of any ability whatsoever to read for comprehension?  How many times must it be repeated that in condemning all ads that attack veterans, she DID condemn the MoveOn ad?

<<$$$ speaks mightier than integrity over there in the Clinton camp, then again, that's no new headline either.>>

You've got it exactly backward, as usual.  By condemning the MoveOn ad, she risks attracting MoveOn's wrath and LOSING what they could otherwise have given her campaign.  She should have told her interlocutor that the MoveOn ad had Betrayus-Petraeus nailed, and that she intended to fire him as her first official Presidential act, for participating in partisan politics.


<<Ahhh, Tee going to aply his all or none principle again.  There were probably a few ads that went after Kerry and Cleland's patriotism.  And those would be condemned by all. >>

Well, not exactly.  I actually don't recall any of them condemned by Bush.  OR by Cheney.  Or by any of the rest of the criminal murdering scum.

<<I, again, would be referencing the VAST majority of ads that had nothing to do with their service to their country, but were criticized none-the-less as doing such, because the ads were daring to criticize their positions on the war, as well as other issues.  THAT's not denigrating their service I'm afraid to say.  >> 

Waffling again, eh sirs?  First there were NO ads that attacked the patriotism and/or service, now it's "probably a few."  Jeeeeziz, man, make up your mind.   What's the difference anyway?  One such ad is one too many.  It's truly despicable.  I don't need to get into a counting game to see if it's 5% or 25% or 95% of all ads, it just ain't worth the trouble.  I know a lot of people bitched about the ads.

sirs

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Re: NYT editor slams paper over 'General Betray Us' ad
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2007, 12:02:20 AM »
<<She chose the corward's way out, condemning "all ads" . . . >>

What is so cowardly about condemning all ads, which obviously includes MoveOn's ad, which is the only one in the category of condemned ads coming from people who could pay a large part of her campaign expenses?

Removing all the ranting drool, we'll focus on the basic point.  You apparently didn't see the interview.  She was asked point blank, and with the pause only politicians can get away with, in trying to answer the question, without actually answering the question, she refused to condemn the MoveOn ad.  She managed to condemn ads that happen to be aimed at Democrats, ads that were mostly (have to add this all or none disclaimer to tee responses, since he has this illness that makes him conclude any person he's disagreeing with is referencing every breathing person or absolutely no ads vs all ads) perfectly legitimate in criticisng Kerry's or Cleland's positions.  Yea, there may have been some that sunk as low as "Vote Republican and watch another black church burn", but those few would have been condemned by all.  Point being, she could have had her husband's sister souljah moment, and condemned the MoveOn ad for the disgrace that it was.  But she wants their $$$ more than she wants her integrity.

Then again, she is a Clinton & a Democrat, so we ought not be surprised
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: NYT editor slams paper over 'General Betray Us' ad
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2007, 12:52:03 AM »
<<in trying to answer the question, without actually answering the question, she refused to condemn the MoveOn ad. >>

True enough I didn't see this, but all reports indicate that she condemned "all ads that attack veterans" in which case, she DID condemn  the MoveOn ad.  So I just can't understand why you would say that she refused to condemn the MoveOn ad.   You just don't happen to like the WAY she condemned it.

I tell you quite honestly, had I been in her place, I would have told them to go to hell, that there was nothing at all wrong with the ad and that I was going to fire Petraeus if elected because he was meddling in politics.  He had no business at all addressing Congress, that is why there is a civilian "Defense" Secretary, and that is the man who is accountable to the Congress.  Not Betrayus.  He participated willingly in some political theatre for the benefit of the Bush administration and deserves to have his ass canned for it.