Author Topic: Judeo-Christo-Fascism Awareness Week Comes to American Campuses!  (Read 13844 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Henny

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1075
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Judeo-Christo-Fascism Awareness Week Comes to American Campuses!

by Rabbi Arthur Waskow


Did that title make the hair on the back of your neck bristle? Did it feel like a bigoted attack on Christianity and Judaism? 

When the feature film sent out for use in this Week?which focused on the disgusting Christian-led war that killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and the disgusting Jewish-led killing of Muslim children by airplane bombng raids on Gaza -? also included interviews with a few peacenik Quakers, Methodists, and left-wing Jews, criticizing that war and those bombings, did you relax, feeling it was a balanced presentation of Judaism and Christianity?

NO??!! ?Your guts, your kishkes, felt that practically all Christians and Jews were being set up as potential ? indeed probable? bad guys?  Could-be terrorists who ? often manipulated by governments that Christians or Jews controlled?-- hated other religious communities but had not yet got around to buying the plastique for their bombs? 

And since Christians are a huge majority in America but Jews are a small minority with a past of being persecuted, did you especially fear for the impact of Judeo-Christo-Fascism Awareness on Jews and Judaism?  That this Week might incite anti-Semitism?

Did you urge universities to condemn this ?travesty? and institute instead a real Judeo-Christian Awareness Week that looked at the wonderful achievements of Christian and Jewish prayer, charity, and social justice; the history of their persecution; AND the history of their violence against others? That did look closely at the murders of Muslims by Baruch/Aror Goldstein ? but as an aberration?  And looked at the support of Nazism by the leading respectable Lutheran theologians of Germany as terrible ? a mistake? That discussed the genocidal passages of Torah as a long-ago transcended worldview in the light of Hillel?s teaching, ?Do not do to your neighbor what would be hateful if your neighbor did it to you??

Wow. Now THERE?S a concept!? Do not do to your neighbor what would be hateful if your neighbor did it to you!

So what are you doing about the fact that there is NO such week about to appear on US campuses, but on many campuses this coming week, there WILL appear a whole industrial machine called ?Islamofascism Awareness Week?? 

If you think it would be hateful toward you to have somebody produce Judeo-Christo-Fascism Awareness Week, what do you owe your Muslim neighbors?  Or is Hillel?s teaching (and of course Jesus? parallel interpretation of ?Love your neighbor as yourself") a mere utopian joke aimed at na?ve children? 

Are there some Muslims who claim the authority of God to kill and destroy? Yes. Are there some Jews who claim this? Yes. And Christians? Yes. What do we do about this?

There are two valid responses, aimed at loving connection-making rather than at demonization. One is to learn about what drives SOME of the members of EVERY religious community ? even polytheistic Hindus and compassionist Buddhists ?to using aggressive violence SOME of the time. 

How do we brighten the threads of peace and justice and healing in ALL our traditions, while bleaching toward calm and caring the fiery blood-red threads of violence in all of them?  Truly, what tugs us toward compassion, what toward war? Scarcities or plenitudes of water, of oil, of safety, of health care, of honor and respect?

The other path is to learn from and with each other rather than preserving our ghettos of fear and alienation.

On Labor Day weekend, I had the honor and the pleasure of being one of three rabbis who spoke at the national convention of the Islamic Society of North America ?an immense gathering of more than 35,000 American Muslims, held in hotels near Chicago.  ISNA is the umbrella group for American Muslims. 

The other rabbis were Rabbi Eric Yoffie, head of the Reform movement, and Rabbi Ellen Weinberg Dreyfus, vice-president of the Central Conference of American Rabbis (the Reform rabbis), who is slated to be the next president of the CCAR.  Both of them were eloquent, and both were welcomed with excitement and long applause. I will come back to them.

My own experience was joyful.  I shared a panel on interfaith relations with, among others, Shanta Premawardanha, associate general secretary of the National Council of Churches.  We both spoke about plans for the October 8 Interfaith Fast, and its meaning.  Dr. Sayyid Muhammad Syeed, executive director of ISNA, chaired the session and added his own excitement that Jews and Christians were ready to take part in one day of the Ramadan fast, and his hope that mosques everywhere would welcome others to their prayers.

And then I went wandering the ISNA bazaar. Books bound in silver. Flimsy pamphlets on how to observe the New Moon. Arabic calligraphy. Jewelled crescent moons. Head scarves. Robes in white, in black, in purple. Meditation beads. Travel agents for trips to Mecca, Karachi, Fez, Istanbul, Nairobi.

And the people:

Every shade of skin, every twirl of hair. Jeans. Head scarves. Business suits. Long robes. Full-body covers, leaving only the eyes open to the world ? and such eyes!  From one ear, I heard ?Asalaamu aleikum.? From another ear, ?Wossup, bro?? Palestinian-Americans. African-Americans. Kuwaiti-Americans. Indonesian-Americans. Pakistani-Americans. Anglo-Saxon Americans.

One thing I did not hear, or see: Speeches or conversations or pamphlets that were anti-Jewish, anti-Israeli, anti-Christian. Maybe there were some in Arabic, or other languages. But the lingua franca of the conference was English.

Oh yes. ISNA, like CAIR (Council on American-Islamic Relations) was named by the US Department of Justice (under Attorney-General Gonzales) an unindicted co-conspirator in a case alleging a Muslim-American charity was funneling aid to Hamas.

AND ? the FBI placed a full-page ad in ISNA?s program.

What is going on here?

Best-case scenario:  Is the present government of the United States just crazy, does not know its right hand from its left?  Worst-case scenario: is this good-cop/ bad-cop tactics?  The government intimidates Muslims to cooperate with any intrusions the FBI cares to make, by smearing their name until they submit?

This ?unindicted co-conspirator? label is both clever and vile. The government does not even have to persuade a grand jury ? almost always ready to do what any prosecutor wants ? that there is enough evidence even to begin trial. And once it puts the"co-conspirator" label on someone, there is no way to get acquitted ? because you are not standing trial. 

So they stuck this label on ISNA and also on CAIR ? the Council on American-Islamic Relations. I have worked with both in efforts to end the Iraq war and to condemn terrorism. 

While ISNA is a broad Islamic umbrella, CAIR is more analogous to the American Jewish Congress when Rabbi Joachim Prinz and later, Rabbi Henry Siegman were its directors and the AJCongress was still vigorously committed to protecting the human rights and civil liberties of Jews as well as of others.

In that vein, the feisty CAIR has condemned the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories, while in the name of God and Islam it has also condemned terrorist attacks upon Israelis. It has built strong American constituencies in local areas where there are sizeable Muslim communities. 

Result: It is often condemned by those official Jewish organizations that brook no criticism of Israeli governmental policy and actions. It is accused of supporting terrorism although its website is full of condemnations of attacks by Palestinians on Israelis and of Al Qaeda on America. Thank God (and I do mean thank God), centrist American officials have rejected these attacks and have honored CAIR?s presence in the fabric of American life ? as Governor Ed Rendell of Pennsylvania and former Admiral, now Congressman, Joe Sestak ? did when they spoke at the annual CAIR dinner in Philadelphia.

I have gotten to know the staff of two local CAIR chapters?Philadelphia and Florida ? as co-members of the Tent of Abraham, Hagar, and Sarah. Since the Tent (Jews, Christians, and Muslims) meets for extended retreats, sharing our spiritual journeys, our social-change work, and our prayer lives ?I have gotten to know them in depth. I have been deeply impressed by them.

Back to Rabbis Yoffie and Dreyfus at the ISNA convention. Rabbi Dreyfus said, in part:

And finally Micah [the Prophet] tells us to walk modestly with our God.  Of course this phrase, like so many others, is open to interpretation.  I read it now to say that God has the power and the answers, and we need to be modest as we walk with God.  In this context I would respectfully suggest that each of our faiths interprets God?s will and God?s expectations of us differently.  We are only human, and cannot know everything.  By walking modestly with our God, we recognize that we do not have all the truth and all the answers.  I believe in religious pluralism. Pluralism recognizes that others hold truths that I do not share, but even while fundamentally disagreeing on what we hold sacred, we can respect others and their beliefs. This is, of course, very difficult and challenging, since we believe what we believe with great passion and sincerity.  But it is the key to authentic interreligious relationships.  ?

As we listen to each other, as we weave together the strands of our Abrahamic faiths, we have the potential to face our common challenges, to serve God and humanity. May we continue the conversation as we journey forward together.

She was greeted with long and vigorous applause. For her full text, see ?http://www.shalomctr.org/node/1303

And Rabbi Yoffie, speaking to a plenary session, said:

There exists in this country among all Americans ? whether Jews, Christians, or non-believers ? a huge and profound ignorance about Islam. It is not that stories about Islam are missing from our media; there is no shortage of voices prepared to tell us that fanaticism and intolerance are fundamental to Islamic religion, and that violence and even suicide bombing have deep Koranic roots. There is no lack of so-called experts who are eager to seize on any troubling statement by any Muslim thinker and pin it on Islam as a whole. Thus, it has been far too easy to spread the image of Islam as enemy, as terrorist, as the frightening unknown.

How did this happen?

How did it happen that Christian fundamentalists, such as Pat Robertson and Franklin Graham, make vicious and public attacks against your religious tradition?

How did it happen that when a Muslim congressman takes his oath of office while holding the Koran, Dennis Prager suggests that the congressman is more dangerous to America than the terrorists of 9/11?

How did it happen that a member of Congress, Tom Tancredo, now running for President, calls for the bombing of Mecca and Medina?

Even more important, how did it happen that law-abiding Muslims in this country can find themselves condemned for dual-loyalty and blamed for the crimes of terrorists they abhor?

And how did it happen that in the name of security, Muslim detainees and inmates are exposed to abusive and discriminatory treatment that violates the most fundamental principles of our constitution?

One reason that all of this happens is the profound ignorance to which I referred. We know nothing of Islam ? nothing. That is why we must educate our members, and we need your help. And we hope in doing so we will set an example for all Americans.

Because the time has come put aside what the media says is wrong with Islam and to hear from Muslims themselves what is right with Islam.

The time has come to listen to our Muslim neighbors speak, from their heart and in their own words, about the spiritual power of Islam and their love for their religion.

The time has come for Americans to learn how far removed Islam is from the perverse distortions of the terrorists who too often dominate the media, subverting Islam?s image by professing to speak in its name.

The time has come to stand up to the opportunists in our midst ? the media figures, religious leaders, and politicians who demonize Muslims and bash Islam, exploiting the fears of their fellow citizens for their own purposes. ?

We hope to accomplish all this and more with our dialogue program. This dialogue will not be easy. ? Because God is God and we are not God, we can recognize that other religions have much to teach us.

The dialogue will not be one way, of course. You will teach us about Islam and we will teach you about Judaism. We will help you to overcome stereotyping of Muslims, and you will help us to overcome stereotyping of Jews.

We are especially worried now about anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial. Anti-Semitism is not native to Islamic tradition, but a virulent form of it is found today in a number of Islamic societies, and we urgently require your assistance in mobilizing Muslims here and abroad to delegitimize and combat it.

A measure of our success will be our ability, each of us, to discuss and confront extremism in our midst. As a Jew I know that our sacred texts, including the Hebrew Bible, are filled with contradictory propositions, and these include passages that appear to promote violence and thus offend our ethical sensibilities. Such texts are to be found in all religions, including Christianity and Islam.

The overwhelming majority of Jews reject violence by interpreting these texts in a constructive way, but a tiny, extremist minority chooses destructive interpretations instead, finding in the sacred words a vengeful, hateful God. Especially disturbing is the fact that the moderate majority, at least some of the time, decides to cower in the face of the fanatic minority ? perhaps because they seem more authentic, or appear to have greater faith and greater commitment. When this happens, my task as a rabbi is to rally that reasonable, often-silent majority and encourage them to assert the moderate principles that define their beliefs and Judaism?s highest ideals.

My Christian and Muslim friends tell me that precisely the same dynamic operates in their traditions, and from what I can see, that is manifestly so. Surely, as we know from the headlines, you have what I know must be for you as well as for us an alarming number of extremists of your own ? those who kill in the name of God and hijack Islam in the process.

It is therefore our collective task to strengthen and inspire one another as we fight the fanatics and work to promote the values of justice and love that are common to both our faiths.

Rabbi Yoffie?s address brought a standing ovation from thousands of Muslims. Even if he had not been representing more than a million American Jews, what he said would have been, IS, profoundly important. For his full text, see ? http://www.shalomctr.org/node/1302

Any honest and Godly assessment of Islam must, in this moment of extreme danger and high promise in our complex histories, include just such words as these. Any program, like the impending ?Islamofascism Awareness Week,? that does not, is a slap in the face of the Living God we claim to celebrate.

Rabbi Arthur Waskow, co-author, The Tent of Abraham; director, The Shalom Center http://www.shalomctr.org, which voices a new prophetic agenda in Jewish, multireligious, and American life. To receive the weekly on-line Shalom Report, click on?http://www.shalomctr.org/subscribe


Henny

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1075
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Judeo-Christo-Fascism Awareness Week Comes to American Campuses!
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2007, 09:28:58 PM »
Not in Our Voice
By Shira Gordon, Alana Krivo-Kaufman, Josh Schwartz and Shlomo Bolts
PUBLISHED OCTOBER 22, 2007
http://www.columbiaspectator.com/node/27592

We, the Progressive Jewish Alliance, repudiate the mission of David Horowitz?s ?Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week.? We reject the manner in which he manipulates Jewish grief over the Holocaust and the situation in Israel. As Jews and members of a larger campus coalition community, we speak out as allies of our fellow Muslim students.

Horowitz does not speak for us. Instead, he uses symbols and rhetoric which exploit Jewish communal memory and grief. He uses the fear brought about by the Holocaust as well as by terrorist attacks against our fellow Jews. He juxtaposes images of Nazi propaganda with current Islamic extremists. By associating these images with broad groups haphazardly labeled ?Islamo-Fascist,? Horowitz seeks to replace intellectual discussion with panic. Such malevolent tactics are of no service to the Jewish people; rather, they are an attempt to induce Jews into sacrificing their values for a world view of oversimplified fear.

Horowitz claims to support moderate Islam, but does nothing of the sort. Horowitz?s ?Student?s Guide? features a petition ?appeal? aimed at Muslim Student Associations across the country. This ?appeal? is in fact a loyalty oath, in which Muslims are forced to choose between denouncing their entire religion as a danger to humanity and being branded as terrorist sympathizers. Such a narrow-minded approach does not aid moderates, but seeks to strand them between two radical and untenable positions.
Horowitz?s anti-Muslim week of action aims to create a dangerous and false dichotomy between ?Judeo-Christian Civilization? and Islam, both on our campuses and in the world. Horowitz points to the atrocities of extremist regimes, which are driven by a range of historical, political, and economic factors, and claims such atrocities embody the essence of Islam. By this logic, geopolitical conflict can only be resolved with the end of Islam. Such a headstrong and stubborn conviction could only result in enflaming tensions, and provoking a New Crusade against Islam.

We refuse to lend our voice to those who attempt to parasitically draw on the support of the Jewish community. We are not fooled by pundits who co-opt progressive activists? language and protest forms. Instead, we stand as allies with communities of faith and our fellow students. Mr. Horowitz: You will not further your campaign of hate and intolerance in our voice.

Christians4LessGvt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11139
    • View Profile
    • "The Religion Of Peace"
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Judeo-Christo-Fascism Awareness Week Comes to American Campuses!
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2007, 10:01:09 PM »
"Did that title make the hair on the back of your neck bristle? Did it feel like a bigoted attack on Christianity and Judaism?"

Uh no
why would it?
actually it makes me laugh.
now if in today's world Christians in the name of their religion, whose prime motivation was their religion, were crashing airplanes into buildings, blowing up airplanes full of civilians, attacking theaters full of innocent civilians, blowing up commuter trains full of people in Spain and Great Britian, blowing up night clubs full of tourist in Bali, beheading journalist, beheading policemen, attacking churches/mosques, attacking weddings with suicide bombers, attacking and killing American men and women serving in the US Military, were threatening to kill as many Americans as possible, were chanting "Death To America" at weekly prayer services, ect times a 1000, again whose motivation was their religion, then yes I might be so insecure, the hair on the back of my neck stand up. But only then, because right now, in today's world the analogy is ridiculous. Just look at the "Christ in Urine" art display that was basically dismissed by Christians for what it was "Trash". On the othe hand a few cartoons about Prophet Muhammad led Muslims to violent protests, death threats, fire-bombings of embassies, and violence that led to more than 100 deaths. Do you see the pattern?









"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Judeo-Christo-Fascism Awareness Week Comes to American Campuses!
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2007, 10:19:39 PM »
Thanks, Henny.  I am so proud to read of rabbis like Rabbi Waskow and the others.  You know I gave up going to synagogue here in Toronto because although the rabbi was a lot like Rabbi Waskow, the congregation had a lot of David Horowitzes.  I just got sick and tired of listening to their racism and their fascism and as the years passed, it seemed that the rabbi got tired of fighting with the bastards and began to sound more and more like them.  Well, not exactly - - he just stopped challenging them like he did in the beginning. 

Recently, my wife and kids and I have been going to a secular Jewish organization which is about 80 years old, the core of which consists of the old Jewish Communist labour organizers, the ones who stayed with the Party even after the revelations of Stalin's "anti-Semitism" (how the guy could be anti-Semitic and still have a Jewish wife and a Jewish brother-in-law who remained a member of the Politburo until the final collapse of the U.S.S.R. has always mystified me) and even though Communism seems now like a dead cause, they and their children are still fighting the good fight of anti-racism, anti-fascism, anti-war and anti-globalism.  Our group has had speakers from Israeli anti-war groups as well as Muslim-Jewish co-op farms in Israel, proponents of the one-state solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict and Fair Trade organizers.  There's also some outreach to Canadian Indians, the most ripped-off members of our Canadian society, who are now battling the desecration of their ancient burial grounds, often for such ludicrous goals as to turn them into golf courses. 

I worry that scumbags like David Horowitz grab the spotlight and give all Jews everywhere a bad name, so I do appreciate your two posts to indicate we're not ALL bad.

Henny

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1075
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Judeo-Christo-Fascism Awareness Week Comes to American Campuses!
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2007, 10:36:11 PM »
Thanks, Henny.  I am so proud to read of rabbis like Rabbi Waskow and the others.  You know I gave up going to synagogue here in Toronto because although the rabbi was a lot like Rabbi Waskow, the congregation had a lot of David Horowitzes.  I just got sick and tired of listening to their racism and their fascism and as the years passed, it seemed that the rabbi got tired of fighting with the bastards and began to sound more and more like them.  Well, not exactly - - he just stopped challenging them like he did in the beginning. 

Recently, my wife and kids and I have been going to a secular Jewish organization which is about 80 years old, the core of which consists of the old Jewish Communist labour organizers, the ones who stayed with the Party even after the revelations of Stalin's "anti-Semitism" (how the guy could be anti-Semitic and still have a Jewish wife and a Jewish brother-in-law who remained a member of the Politburo until the final collapse of the U.S.S.R. has always mystified me) and even though Communism seems now like a dead cause, they and their children are still fighting the good fight of anti-racism, anti-fascism, anti-war and anti-globalism.  Our group has had speakers from Israeli anti-war groups as well as Muslim-Jewish co-op farms in Israel, proponents of the one-state solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict and Fair Trade organizers.  There's also some outreach to Canadian Indians, the most ripped-off members of our Canadian society, who are now battling the desecration of their ancient burial grounds, often for such ludicrous goals as to turn them into golf courses. 

I worry that scumbags like David Horowitz grab the spotlight and give all Jews everywhere a bad name, so I do appreciate your two posts to indicate we're not ALL bad.

That's great MT - I'm glad you and your wife find a community where you are more comfortable.

And I DO know that Jews are not ALL bad (not even mosty bad or significantly bad - LOL.) God help me if I start classifying an entire race of people based on the acts of a few assholes!  :D

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Judeo-Christo-Fascism Awareness Week Comes to American Campuses!
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2007, 03:07:20 AM »
It might be a good idea.


There is an American equivalent for the Al Queda.

A Group that wraps itself in patriotism , Chistianity and fellow feeling for like persons.

They misuse every decent thing about Nationalism , Religion and human sympathy .


We call them the KKK. And they are Christo-Fascist in any sense of the word you want to make.


A day of awareness for this would be a bad idea in what way?

_JS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3500
  • Salaires legers. Chars lourds.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Judeo-Christo-Fascism Awareness Week Comes to American Campuses!
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2007, 09:57:55 AM »
Quote
They misuse every decent thing about Nationalism

What is decent about nationalism?
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Christians4LessGvt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11139
    • View Profile
    • "The Religion Of Peace"
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Judeo-Christo-Fascism Awareness Week Comes to American Campuses!
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2007, 10:59:07 AM »





"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

_JS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3500
  • Salaires legers. Chars lourds.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Judeo-Christo-Fascism Awareness Week Comes to American Campuses!
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2007, 11:27:56 AM »
Erm...is that a response?

If so, then... ???
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Christians4LessGvt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11139
    • View Profile
    • "The Religion Of Peace"
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Judeo-Christo-Fascism Awareness Week Comes to American Campuses!
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2007, 12:17:15 PM »
yes JS it is a response
moments like that, caught on that picture
when the United States landed on the moon and
many other US achievements
make me very, very proud to be an American
i think alot of Americans are very prideful to be from the US
there is no other country i would prefer to have been from
i feel very blessed to be from the United States of America
do you have a problem with that?



























"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

_JS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3500
  • Salaires legers. Chars lourds.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Judeo-Christo-Fascism Awareness Week Comes to American Campuses!
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2007, 01:21:38 PM »
That doesn't answer the question.

First, what makes pride and nationalism synonymous?

Second, what is decent about nationalism?
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Christians4LessGvt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11139
    • View Profile
    • "The Religion Of Peace"
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Judeo-Christo-Fascism Awareness Week Comes to American Campuses!
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2007, 02:57:11 PM »
That doesn't answer the question.

Yes it did.
Because you don't like the answer, does not mean it was not answered.

And by the way, you didn't answer my question.
Do you have a problem with that?

First, what makes pride and nationalism synonymous?

They aren't always synonymous but there can be a link when one has pride in his nation.

Second, what is decent about nationalism?

Well a second answer might be that "loyalty and devotion to a nation"
can sometimes build a unity that allows a nation to accomplish lofty goals.
JFK's race to the moon, brought a nation together to attempt such a goal.
This teamwork by a nation allowed a country to achieve a goal that had been
a dream for mankind for centuries. Had the UN been in charge of the same
mission I would think we would still be attempting to land on the moon for
the first time.

"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

_JS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3500
  • Salaires legers. Chars lourds.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Judeo-Christo-Fascism Awareness Week Comes to American Campuses!
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2007, 03:21:40 PM »
I appreciate your answers.

Now I will endeavor to answer your question.

Nationalism is, in my opinion, one of the worst inventions of humanity. It is really nothing more than pride in chance. In other words, pride in the luck that one was born within a specific set of geographic parameters.

Nationalism has led to the most brutal of wars, especially in recent history. The current Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs, Dan Fried, when looking at the aftermath of the Yugoslav Wars said: "Nationalism ... is like cheap alcohol. First it makes you drunk, then it makes you blind, then it kills you."

Nationalism was the ultimate tool of the Fascists and helped to lead to the world's worst genocide. Albert Einstein called it, "an infantile disease...the measles of mankind."

Nationalism and Patriotism both helped fuel Imperialism, colonialism, and the subjugation of the many, by the few. It has led to policies such as apartheid, segregation, and brutality. In the same year that Neil Armstrong landed on the moon, the Nationalists in Northern Ireland did their part to help begin The Troubles. FLQ bombers hit Montreal in the name of what? Francaphone nationalism.

The United States fights one of the bloodiest years of the Vietnam War and also bombs the separate nation of Cambodia in 1969. The war is basically a war about...nationalism. General Giap would go on to say as much in several interviews after the war.

Honduras and El Salvador fight a brief war from 14 July to 18 July 1969 dubbed the infamous "Football War." Nationalsim...again.

Patriotism and nationalism, in my view, are useless. Or at least, the costs FAR exceed any possible benefits. It is no big deal to chant U-S-A! at an international sporting event...if anything that is a good way to vent nationalist sentiment. But there are a hell of a lot of dead bodies left in the wake of nationalism and patriotism.


I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Christians4LessGvt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11139
    • View Profile
    • "The Religion Of Peace"
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Judeo-Christo-Fascism Awareness Week Comes to American Campuses!
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2007, 03:36:06 PM »
so it's the "worst invention" ever invented but before the nation state was invented "tribes" were slaughtering one another over countless centuries. Be honest, don't be ashamed of your ideas, isn't this really about your opinion that the world would be better served by a one world government and that you would like to disolve the nation state, dissolve the United States as a nation, and be a part of a "one world socialist utopia"? (is that an oxymoron?)



« Last Edit: October 24, 2007, 03:39:25 PM by ChristiansUnited4LessGvt »
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

_JS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3500
  • Salaires legers. Chars lourds.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Judeo-Christo-Fascism Awareness Week Comes to American Campuses!
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2007, 03:49:28 PM »
so it's the "worst invention" ever invented but before the nation state was invented "tribes" were slaughtering one another over countless centuries. Be honest, don't be ashamed of your ideas, isn't this really about your opinion that the world would be better served by a one world government and that you would like to disolve the nation state, dissolve the United States as a nation, and be a part of a "one world socialist utopia"? (is that an oxymoron?)

Your history is a bit off. We didn't go from tribes to nations. There was quite a bit in-between. The concept of nations is relatively modern in human history.

Regardless, I'm not one for utopias. I do believe the world would be better off if it held national boundaries in far less regard. As we stand, national origin carries far more weight than it ever should. Most of Africa and the Middle East were arbitrarily drawn by European Empires anyway, what the hell are they supposed to be proud of? A line on a map that someone from some other country drew a long time ago? Yipee!

Do I think the United States needs to dissolve as a nation? LOL No. I just don't believe that nationhood is such a spectacular concept.

It makes for a lot of fun when you want to get someone riled up though.

I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.