Author Topic: Palestinians: Aggressors, Not Victims  (Read 15256 times)

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sirs

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Re: Palestinians: Aggressors, Not Victims
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2007, 12:02:21 PM »
Quote
Palestinians had no "lands" prior to the UN's decision to return Isreal to it's original location back in the late 40's.

Many of the Palestinians owned property in Jerusalem and elsewhere in areas that are now controlled by Israel.

I'm sure they did.  Many people in many countries have had land taken from them by Government agencies.  Of course that wasn't my point either.  My reference to "land" was not someone's private piece of property.  I'm referring to a recognized and sanctioned boundry outlining a specific province, or country,  There was no land of "Palestine" before or after the Iraelis were allowed to resettle


Now, whether they fled because they were afraid of being caught up in the war, or they fled, as some surmise, expecting to return in a short time after an Arab victory, is irrelevant. israel, once the war was over, has refused to let them return to the homes and property they rightfully own, and has turned it over to others to live in or settle on.

That's arguable, but at this point is a non-starter, especially as it relates to the so-called "Right of Return".  There was a war to go along with those who fled for whatever reasons.  Israel won that war, and like any victors in a war, rightly or wrongly, have taken what lands they felt necessary to better defend themselves.  I truely feel sorry for those inidivual Palestinians who may have owned some personal properties, but as I referenced above, Governments do that bit of unfairness of taking over lands all across the globe.  We just a recent Supreme Court decision to allow our Government to perform the task, that much easier (noting the liberal end of the court being the ones that got that passed)
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

hnumpah

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Re: Palestinians: Aggressors, Not Victims
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2007, 12:11:01 PM »
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There was no land of "Palestine"...

Sure there was. It was a 'mandate', a territory overseen by the British after WW1.
"I love WikiLeaks." - Donald Trump, October 2016

sirs

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Re: Palestinians: Aggressors, Not Victims
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2007, 01:30:08 PM »
Quote
There was no land of "Palestine"...

Sure there was. It was a 'mandate', a territory overseen by the British after WW1.

Show me, H.  Show me this Palestine "border/land" established prior to the end of WWII, it's outline, and its set-up Government running it, not to mention all the other countries that were recognizing this land as Palestine.  I'm all eyes
« Last Edit: November 29, 2007, 01:59:34 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Richpo64

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Re: Palestinians: Aggressors, Not Victims
« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2007, 01:30:45 PM »
>>Rich, I understand this. As an evangelical Christian, it is clear to me they are entitled to the land of the Philistines and all surrounding territory to include all land at the height of any Jewish hegemony. God gave them this, IMHO.<<

We agree.

>>However, I am offering a real life compromise here. Let's move 'em, lock stock and all, to somewhere else no one will want so the hostility is gone.<<

How do you justify something like this when you admit Israel is clearly their land to befin with? Why on Earth should Israel acquiess to mudrerous terroriists if it's their land by birth? If you're a Christian who knows your Bible, why on Earth would you force Jews off the promised land before you would make Arabs live up to their end of the bargain? Why not do what was intented in the first place? Move the "Palestinians" to Jordon. Any Arabs currently living and working in Israel could certianly stay, but since the Arabs caused the refugee problem, they should do what they should have done years ago and taken in the refugees instead of using them for political gain.



Richpo64

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Re: Palestinians: Aggressors, Not Victims
« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2007, 01:32:16 PM »
>>He does have a tendency to do that ...<<

Just to you sirs. Usually when you sucking up to the left, thinking they'll like you despite you being a Nazi.

sirs

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Re: Palestinians: Aggressors, Not Victims
« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2007, 02:00:57 PM »
See what I mean, Professor?   
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Richpo64

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Re: Palestinians: Aggressors, Not Victims
« Reply #36 on: November 29, 2007, 03:04:30 PM »
Oh come on now sirs, no need to ignore me. You know what I mean, and I'll tell you right now that I do admire your tenacity. Let me tell you this, I don't go after you when you're involved in an argument with someone, yet you feel empowered to do so to me. Why not keep your mouth shut? I have enough to deal with (as do you) without you making smarmy little comments like, " he does have a tendency to do that,"" and the like.

Understand?

sirs

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Re: Palestinians: Aggressors, Not Victims
« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2007, 03:13:51 PM »
Oh come on now sirs, no need to ignore me.

Why would I ignore you?  If you hadn't noticed, I frequently agree with many of your positions....minus the shrill insultive broadbrushing


Let me tell you this, I don't go after you when you're involved in an argument with someone, yet you feel empowered to do so to me. Why not keep your mouth shut?

Like you Rich, I call them like I see them.  As much as I'll go after the left, in order to demonstrate some objectivity, when the right gets out of hand, and starts looking like knute, I'm going to call them on it.  When you start broadbrushing the likes of Terra & Tee, I'm going to call you on it.  As I said, I agree with probably 85+% of what you talk about.  I don't agree with the 15% that includes egregious insults, all Muslims are X, all Palestinians are Y, all liberals are @&#%.  That's what I'd consider Tee territory of broadbrushing, and is really beneath what is otherwise pretty solid and accurate commentary


Understand?

Yea, do you?  Is it possible to collaborate minus the hyperbolic 15% I referenced above?
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Richpo64

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Re: Palestinians: Aggressors, Not Victims
« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2007, 03:18:05 PM »
>>As much as I'll go after the left, in order to demonstrate some objectivity, when the right gets out of hand...<<

Alright. When you make an ass of yourself (which you frequently do) I'll be happy to point it out in the future.

sirs

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Re: Palestinians: Aggressors, Not Victims
« Reply #39 on: November 29, 2007, 03:26:16 PM »
By all means.  Try to accomplish it without the egregious Tee-like broadbrushing and insults, if that's possible
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Palestinians: Aggressors, Not Victims
« Reply #40 on: November 29, 2007, 09:30:22 PM »
My Plan for Peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians is to disarm both sides and put everyone for a dozen years under a Dutch mandate. The Dutch are tolerant, they are large and strong, and they know how to reclaim land from the sea.

During this time, polders will be built, the Golan Heights will be scooped out and dumped into the Mediterranean. The idea is to build a second Palisrael abiut five miles off the coast of the present one. When it is completed, there will be a drawing, and the people who win will get to choose between the new Palisrael and the older one.

When everyone has settled in and made nice with each other, then the Dutch can go home and return to tulip farming, potsmoking, and wooden shoe wearing, among other things.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Michael Tee

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Re: Palestinians: Aggressors, Not Victims
« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2007, 11:32:27 PM »
<<Close, but not quite. The land was legally acquired by Jews who immigrated to the region.>>

Often acquiring large tracts from absentee Turkish landlords in Cairo and evicting thousands of Arab families who had lived and died for generations on those same lands. 

<<By 1937 there were already 400,000 Jews living there on land they legally purchased... (Reality Alert)>>

"Reality Alert," my ass.  HERE'S the REALITY CHECK that'll stop Rich's Zio-Nazi bullshit dead in its tracks - - the British Census of 1922.

<<The British census of 1922 registered 752,048 inhabitants in Palestine, consisting of 589,177 Palestinian Muslims, 83,790 Palestinian Jews, 71,464 Palestinian Christians (including Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and others) and 7,617 persons belonging to other groups. The corresponding percentage breakdown is 78% Muslim, 11% Jewish, and 9% Christian. Palestinian Bedouin were not counted in the census, but a 1930 British study estimated their number at 70,860.[61]>>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian

Cute, huh?  In the fifteen years from 1922 to 1937, the Jews in Palestine almost quintuple in population from 84,000 to 400,000 - - an actual increase of 4.76 times the original size.  By way of comparison, in TWENTY years from 1920 to 1940, the U.S.A. went from 106  to 132 million, or 1.25 times original size.  Adjusted (roughly) to a 15-year period, the increase is only 1.18 times original size.  (If the U.S. had shown growth proportional to Jewish population growth in Palestine over roughly the same 15 years, it would have gone from 106 million in 1920 to 505 million by 1935.) 

[U.S. figures from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States]

What obviously happened was MASSIVE Jewish immigration into Palestine occurring roughly over the same period of time (1922-1937) as the Nazi rise to power in Germany.  Hitler's beer-hall putsch, 1923; accession to power, 1933; Nuremburg racial laws, 1935.  To escape from a threat arising entirely in Christian Europe (aided and abetted by Amerikkkan fascists and racists like Charles Lindbergh, his wife Anne and Henry Ford) the Jews of Europe flocked into Palestine and immediately began dispossessing the poor dumb fucking Arabs who lived there.  And getting paid Zionist flacks like Leon Uris (for a very generous subsidy) to write best-sellers full of lies and bullshit about their "heroic" exploits.  This was really the bottom end of the Darwinian paradigm - - the despised, the weak and the persecuted looking down to find someone even weaker and more despised than themselves to persecute and exploit. 
« Last Edit: November 29, 2007, 11:35:07 PM by Michael Tee »

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Palestinians: Aggressors, Not Victims
« Reply #42 on: November 29, 2007, 11:49:10 PM »
The old Zionist bit was that Israel was "a land without people for a people without a land". This wasn't true, but it sounded nice.

Before Wilson's Twenty Points, the idea that each nationality should have its own chunk of real estate was not seen as any sort of ideal. I guess the main instigators of the idea were the Irish and Polish nationalists, and later others who felt that it would make it easier to exploit the former Austro-Hungarian, Russian, and Ottoman Empires once they were split up into bite-size chunks.

At the same time in the US (the 1920's and 1930's), there was a trend to merge several Native American tribes into one reservation.

Here in Dade County in the late 1940's and early 1950's there was a whole lot of former swampland that had been reclaimed. Miami Beach typically had restrictive covenents on most of the property, banning Blacks and especially Jews (and of course there were more Jews who could afford a home). So they combined Ojus, Fulford-by-the-Sea (which wasn't) and several other unincorporated  developments and renamed them North Miami Beach. Then they peddled said lots to New Yorkers, most of them Jewish, many of whom bought them sight unseen. No part of North Miami Beach touches any part of any ocean or has a beach. There are a few places that are next to canals or the bay between the area north of Miami Beach and the mainland. But most of NMB is actually within ten or fifteen miles of the beach.

No part of Fulford-by-the-Sea actually touched the Ocean either. This was a 1920's Real Estate deception.

In Broward County we have a Miramar (which means 'seaview") that is about 25 miles from the ocean. It's flat, so there is no chance that anyone standing in Miramar has ever caught a glimpse of the Sea.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Palestinians: Aggressors, Not Victims
« Reply #43 on: November 29, 2007, 11:57:10 PM »
"1922 registered 752,048 inhabitants in Palestine"


If only it were so sparce now.

Michael Tee

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Re: Palestinians: Aggressors, Not Victims
« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2007, 09:38:50 AM »
<<If only it were so sparce now.>>

So you're in favour of rolling back the tidal wave of Jewish immigration into Palestine?  Or state-enforced limits on population growth?  Or both?  (just kidding)