Why so scared of Christmas?

[sirs]

You're gonna be hardpressed Js to find ANYTHING in the scriptures that indicates a prediosition that Jesus would support coerced/forced taking of something that belongs to person A, in order to give it to person B.  But good luck

[_JS]

You're gonna be hardpressed Js to find ANYTHING in the scriptures that indicates a prediosition that Jesus would support coerced/forced taking of something that belongs to person A, in order to give it to person B.  But good luck

You're going to be hard pressed to find anything Sirs that shows Jesus supporting such a self-centered view of society. Those earnings are not person A's, they are God's. The fruits of creation were given to man by God to be shared amongst man. You show me where Christ intended for creation to be primarily intended for the top 2% and the scraps divied amongst the remainder.

Bullshit.

This movement to meld Christianity into a free-market, laissez faire, Milton Friedman wet dream is a joke. If you wish for a religion that supports the crass consumerism of modern society that's fine, but don't try and water down the teachings of Christ to fit your lifestyle and views. I don't see where Jesus cared much about private property rights to be flat honest with you Sirs. Again, how did the Apostles form their community in Acts? Did they bitch and moan about taking person A's goods?

Why don't you try reading the Bible before commenting on it.

[sirs]

Why don't you provide scripture that demonstrates how Jesus would support goverment officials taking from one to give to another??  Perhaps because there ISN'T ANY?? 

Christ's advocating that we help our fellow man does not equate to MANDATING that we help our fellow man.  It all goes back to free will....that which God gave us, the freedom to CHOOSE our actions and our paths.  At NO TIME DID JESUS EVER PREACH HOW WE'RE TO FORCE OUR FELLOW MAN TO HELP OTHER FELLOW MEN.  I defy you to refute that

[Xavier_Onassis]

We do work to prevent the by kill that can be avoided . The Palestinians do not.

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We do? 

There arer many, many, more Palestinians by Israelis killed than Israelis killed by Palestinians. This is not normally reported in the newspapers and TV shows you read and see, because the OIsraelis are ever so much better at propaganda.

Thye Palestinians fight on and do not give up because to give up would mean to be pushed into smaller and smaller territories. They have nowhere to go. Israelis can always come to the US, but Palestinians are not welcomed anywhere by anyone, and cannot even enter most countries. They are trapped in an ever-shrinking box.

[hnumpah]

Why don't you provide scripture that demonstrates how Jesus would support goverment officials taking from one to give to another?? 

Matthew 22:21
...Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

This came after being asked whether people should pay tribute (taxes) to the Romans. The Romans, besides using taxes to support their armies and govenments, also used the money to build roads, aqueducts, colosseums, and other civic projects, as well as funds to feed the poor; so yes, Jesus did advocate taking money from one to give to another.

[sirs]

Why don't you provide scripture that demonstrates how Jesus would support goverment officials taking from one to give to another?? 

Matthew 22:21
...Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Yea, and....?  Jesus advocated giving away ALL one's worldy & material poessessions, to follow God's path.  Is this now the literal implication that unless we're all in overt poverty, devoid of all materialistic goods, we're not walking God's path??
 
the point again remains that with the most utmost decision one could make, that of following a path towards God.....or not, We have that ability to choose.  It's not being forced upon us by the government.  according to Js's line of logic, Jesus would support government making people follow God's path....literally.  I doubt very seriously Christ would be supporting that notion, either

[hnumpah]

And you skip right over the point - this was in direct response to a question about paying taxes, and had nothing to do with giving away all your worldly possessions..

[sirs]

No, the point is what we perceive Jesus would advocate/support.  You & Js seem to think that Jesus supports the notion that government is to forcibly take from someone to give to another.  Well, if the ultimate goal is salvation, then obviously Jesus must support that Government must then be involved in that as well, forcibly if necessary.  Otherwise there's this obvious illogical disconnect simply to try and support some pro-Taxation Christ

[hnumpah]

Actually, my point is that you asked "Why don't you provide scripture that demonstrates how Jesus would support goverment officials taking from one to give to another??"

I provided it.

And now all of a sudden you are all mealy mouthed about it.

[sirs]

Well, if you don't support the notion of Jesus supporting government to facilitate our salvation, a MUCH greater goal than simply helping our fellow man, not sure why you're even responding to this.  Your scripture simply was in Jesus responding to a question regarding if he's boss or if Ceaser was, and hardly implying some form of pro-taxation Christ.     

[gipper]

This is a conundrum. Christ was at once the preeminent "help your neighbor" advocate historically as well as history's preeminent propnent of nonviolence. There seems to be little doubt where Christ would come down on healing the sick and feeding the hungry and relieving the impoverished even at the expense of the wealthy and comfortable. To the extent He advocated means, they would be along the lines of Gandhi and King, but unmistakable in their vector. Never confronted with the problem, and leaving its resolution to the unfolding of history, Christ did not address the path to follow when one preeminent mandate clashes headon with the other. The Church has, however: in the just war theory.

[hnumpah]

Well, if you don't support the notion of Jesus supporting government to facilitate our salvation, a MUCH greater goal than simply helping our fellow man, not sure why you're even responding to this.  Your scripture simply was in Jesus responding to a question regarding if he's boss or if Ceaser was, and hardly implying some form of pro-taxation Christ.

I'm not interested in greater goals. You asked a question. I answered.

And as so often in the past, you want to bend and twist the answer to suit your own ends.

Have at it.

[sirs]

Well, if you don't support the notion of Jesus supporting government to facilitate our salvation, a MUCH greater goal than simply helping our fellow man, not sure why you're even responding to this.  Your scripture simply was in Jesus responding to a question regarding if he's boss or if Ceaser was, and hardly implying some form of pro-taxation Christ.

I'm not interested in greater goals. You asked a question. I answered.

I suppose in tweaking & twisting a scripture that had prescious little to do with some pro-taxation Jesus, to try and refute my point, then your goal was accomplished.  Good job

[Michael Tee]

<<Well, if you don't support the notion of Jesus supporting government to facilitate our salvation, a MUCH greater goal than simply helping our fellow man, not sure why you're even responding to this.>>

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ROTFLMFAO.  It's hilarious to follow through this thread.  Basically, sirs doesn't think it's OK for the gov't to tax Peter to benefit Paul; challenges hnumpah to prove that Jesus would have advocated paying taxes to support projects you don't approve of; and gets hit with the "Render unto Caesar" quote, which is about as direct as you can get in support of paying taxes to a government which is going to put the money to all kinds of uses, some acceptable to Christians, some not, some beneficial to the poor, some not.

Faced with undeniable proof of what he had just challenged hnumpah to produce, sirs immediately tries to move the goal-posts:

"Well now prove that Jesus said to give away all your stuff and live in poverty."   Huh?  From just paying your taxes to voluntary self-pauperization?  Quite a leap, for anyone other than sirs.  But hnumpah ain't buyin.

Oooh, Jeeziz, tight bind.  What's a right-wing ideologue to do?  Logic?  Maybe logic can bale him out of this one.  "OK, if Jesus supports paying taxes to government to help our fellow man, how about paying taxes to government to facilitate our salvation?  A "MUCH" greater goal."

Anybody out there past the age of 12 who hasn't caught the lunacy yet?  "Scrap the NIH, scrap No Child Left Behind, scrap the Centres for Disease Control, scrap FEMA!!!  We're gonna put the U.S. government to work on the MUCH greater goal of facilitating humanity's salvation.  The new Department of Salvation will put this thing on a war footing.  We'll get William Bennett - - no, Michael Browne!! - - no, Alberto Gonzalez!!  He'll be the Salvation Czar!!  We conservatives have got our priorities straight.  We know what Americans want from their government - - salvation!!"

I propose a prize for both of the participants in this debate - - hnumpah for steady, relentless logic and refusal to get side-tracked by the king of side-tracking and changing goalposts, and sirs for persistence, doggedness and refusal to concede a loss even when it leads him over the brink of absurdity.  Well done, both of you.

[hnumpah]

I propose a prize for both of the participants in this debate - - hnumpah for steady, relentless logic and refusal to get side-tracked by the king of side-tracking and changing goalposts, and sirs for persistence, doggedness and refusal to concede a loss even when it leads him over the brink of absurdity.  Well done, both of you.

Thenk yew, thenk yew veddy much.