Author Topic: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)  (Read 21286 times)

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_JS

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True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« on: January 09, 2008, 06:14:24 PM »
Sirs stated that my Christian beliefs are too intertwined with Socialist ideology and that I contort Biblical teachings to fit my own personal ideology.

He thus stated that he knows the true teachings of Christ, therefore as a Christian I believe it is incumbent upon him to teach us. I believe Paul would agree.

I'm asking sincerely, will you teach us the true teachings of Christ not bound to any political or economic ideologies, Sirs?
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sirs

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2008, 06:44:32 PM »
Asked and answered already, in discussing the notion of taxation and who does the $$$ belong to

The polar problem here is in thinking that because Christ advocated helping our fellow man, that ANYTHING that does that is supposed to be cool, and what Christ would support.  Christ's foundation however is in allowing us to CHOOSE out paths, the freedom to decide if we want to live more Christ-like, or not.  It NEVER included the notion that one needs to support a "larger controlling body" to execute the task of helping our fellow man.  It's purely to the individual soul.  We don't get into heaven via the "group", we get into heaven by our own acts.  Simple as that

And it's truely distressing to see one imply that one is not acting Christian if they don't support some socialistic 3rd party intervention in helping our fellow man, since supposedly Christ would have
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Brassmask

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2008, 08:48:39 PM »
So, are you willing to take the risk that Jesus DIDN'T want us to use government to ease suffering?

Are you willing to risk eternal damnation simply for some devotion to some non-christian ideology?

Universe Prince

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2008, 09:34:51 PM »

So, are you willing to take the risk that Jesus DIDN'T want us to use government to ease suffering?


As best I can determine, that isn't a risk. For one, I notice that Jesus made no attempt to use the government of His time to that end. For another, Matthew 17:24-27 has this exchange:
      24 When they had come to Capernaum, those who received the temple tax came to Peter and said, "Does your Teacher not pay the temple tax?"
25 He said, "Yes." And when he had come into the house, Jesus anticipated him, saying, "What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth take customs or taxes, from their sons or from strangers?"
26 Peter said to Him, "From strangers." Jesus said to him, "Then the sons are free.
27 Nevertheless, lest we offend them, go to the sea, cast in a hook, and take the fish that comes up first. And when you have opened its mouth, you will find a piece of money; take that and give it to them for Me and you."
      
And for yet another, Matthew 20:25-28, Mark 10:42-45 and Luke 22:24-27 each contain some form of this teaching from Jesus (I'm using the one from Luke):
      24 Now there was also a dispute among them, as to which of them should be considered the greatest.
25 And He said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them, and those who exercise authority over them are called 'benefactors.'
26 But not so among you; on the contrary, he who is greatest among you, let him be as the younger, and he who governs as he who serves.
27 For who is greater, he who sits at the table, or he who serves? Is it not he who sits at the table? Yet I am among you as the One who serves."
      
I'm sure JS will jump in to tell me I'm wrong, but frankly, in my own studies this all points to Jesus not only not teaching His followers to use government or authority to force people to obey but specifically teaching them to not attempt to force obedience on others by taking a position of authority or by government or by other means. He is specifically saying don't lord over others, rather choose for yourself to be a servant.


Are you willing to risk eternal damnation simply for some devotion to some non-christian ideology?


I would say not only is there no such risk, but the not using government position is actually a Christian teaching. Though I find funny that you, an atheist, are trying to use fear of damnation as a tactic of persuasion.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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Brassmask

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2008, 09:42:46 PM »
Quote
Though I find funny that you, an atheist, are trying to use fear of damnation as a tactic of persuasion.

Then I have accomplished my goal.

 ;)

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2008, 10:44:48 PM »
I suggest that Jesus was neither a Libertarian nor a Socialist. These are modern terms, and would have had little meaning with Jesus.

He was an itinerant  priest of a monotheistic tribe that had been subjugated by a polytheistic and militaristic tribe. His message was basically that "Our one God is more powerful than all of your many gods, and eventually He will prevail".

Did he cure the sick, resurrect the dead, show compassion for those outside his tribe, turn water into wine, and manage to resurrect himself as a means of demonstrating the power of his one God?

That is what they say.

But putting thyis into terms of XIX=XXI Century politics seems as absurd to me as discussing what tunes Jesus would have on his I-Pod.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2008, 11:04:24 PM »
So, are you willing to take the risk that Jesus DIDN'T want us to use government to ease suffering?

The bigger risk you face is eternal damnation for not believing in the 1st place.  But that's your burden to bear.  To answer your question, considering I've apparently spent a hell of a lot longer studying the bible and Christ's teachings than yourself, there's no risk what-so-ever.  Jesus wanted man, NOT GOVERNMENT to ease other men's sufferings.  The scriptures clearly articulate such


Are you willing to risk eternal damnation simply for some devotion to some non-christian ideology?

LOL......Coming from a devoted atheist who resorts to calling anyone who has a belief system delusional, you're concluding my Christianity is a "non-Christian ideology"?  Why would you even care, I'm delusional, remember?  Gotta love it     :D
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2008, 11:36:21 PM »
quote author=Xavier_Onassis link=topic=5024.msg47591#msg47591 date=1199933088]
I suggest that Jesus was neither a Libertarian nor a Socialist. These are modern terms, and would have had little meaning with Jesus.

He was an itinerant priest of a monotheistic tribe that had been subjugated by a polytheistic and militaristic tribe. His message was basically that "Our one God is more powerful than all of your many gods, and eventually He will prevail".


[/quote]

Jesus didn't build himself fortune , or take possession of a home , he was itinerant by choice.


Why would someone who could draw a crowd like a rock star, choose to be itinerant?

He was on a mission and all was sacrificed to his mission.

Where was he saying ""Our one God is more powerful than all of your many gods, and eventually He will prevail"."?

Was that the sermon on the mount? Perhaps a part I don't remember.

Universe Prince

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2008, 12:10:19 AM »

I suggest that Jesus was neither a Libertarian nor a Socialist. These are modern terms, and would have had little meaning with Jesus.


True enough. And I wasn't arguing that Jesus was libertarian.


But putting thyis into terms of XIX=XXI Century politics seems as absurd to me as discussing what tunes Jesus would have on his I-Pod.


Possibly. But that doesn't mean we can't discuss Jesus' teachings.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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_JS

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2008, 01:01:11 AM »
Asked and answered already, in discussing the notion of taxation and who does the $$$ belong to

The polar problem here is in thinking that because Christ advocated helping our fellow man, that ANYTHING that does that is supposed to be cool, and what Christ would support.  Christ's foundation however is in allowing us to CHOOSE out paths, the freedom to decide if we want to live more Christ-like, or not.  It NEVER included the notion that one needs to support a "larger controlling body" to execute the task of helping our fellow man.  It's purely to the individual soul.  We don't get into heaven via the "group", we get into heaven by our own acts.  Simple as that

And it's truely distressing to see one imply that one is not acting Christian if they don't support some socialistic 3rd party intervention in helping our fellow man, since supposedly Christ would have

The problems are many and not as simple as Sirs would lead anyone to believe.

1. Sirs defines taxation as "forcibly taking property." That definition is debatable.
2. Sirs assumes that he has the knowledge of "Christ's foundation" and that it is freedom to choose one's path.
3. Sirs defines Christianity as individualism with no regard for society.
4. Sirs follows a typical Calvinist theology, not anything related to early Christianity, but a purely 16th century invention.

Yet, as a Christian I'm supposed to believe this - no questions asked. Notice there is no evidence offered. No scripture given. No theologians quoted. No primary or secondary sources referred to. Just "I believe this, you will to." Sound like freedom? No.

And please note that I never made any claim that socialism is necessary for being a Christian. Nor did I ever claim that Christ was a socialist. Nor have I claimed that one must believe in socialism or government spending on social programs to be a Christian.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

_JS

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2008, 01:05:42 AM »
The bigger risk you face is eternal damnation for not believing in the 1st place.  But that's your burden to bear.  To answer your question, considering I've apparently spent a hell of a lot longer studying the bible and Christ's teachings than yourself, there's no risk what-so-ever.  Jesus wanted man, NOT GOVERNMENT to ease other men's sufferings.  The scriptures clearly articulate such.

1. You aren't the author of eternal reward and damnation.
2. Lucifer believes that Jesus is the Son of God. Belief is meaningless on its own.
3. You're a Bible Scholar? Then let's discuss the scripture.

Quote
Jesus wanted man, NOT GOVERNMENT to ease other men's sufferings.  The scriptures clearly articulate such.

Where? Where did Christ limit how the suffering of man can be eased? Did he say that charities were acceptable?
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

sirs

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2008, 02:46:13 AM »
Js, seriously, I can't have this conversation with you, if you're going to continue to insist that Christ would support the taking from 1 to give to another.  Taxing is forcibly taking from someone, and using their $$ for someone else.  All with the "best intentions" of course   ::)   That is very UN Christ like.  Yes, we are to help our fellow man, and we should.  But it's a CHOICE.  The requirement of helping our fellow man, at risk of penalty, is in no way, consistent with any doctrince, or more markedly, any EXAMPLE that Christ performed.  Christ helped his fellow man and performed miracles because he chose to, NOT because he had to.  Are you grasping the difference, yet??

As I prompted one of our devoted Atheists, I defy you to present us some examples of Christ TAKING from someone to give to another, in the pursuit of taking care of our fellow man.  Please, show us
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2008, 07:41:47 AM »
But putting this into terms of XIX=XXI Century politics seems as absurd to me as discussing what tunes Jesus would have on his I-Pod.


Possibly. But that doesn't mean we can't discuss Jesus' teachings.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course you can. But relating it to modern-day politics is pretty much useless. Would Jesus have had a position on breath freshener, deodorant or tooth whitener? We can assume that he would have pretty much opposed the Gillette Mach-3 and all brands of razors and shaving gel, as good Jews should under no circumstances shave and look like Romans.

I question that Jesus had the potential to "draw a crowd like a rock star". I doubt that this was possible for anyone in those days before mass media. And rock stars are itinerant, aren't they? Today, Chicago, tomorrow, Des Moines.

Jesus Christ was not a superstar. No one was in those days.

The Romans were the government, and they were unresponsive to the needs of the people. They built the occasional aqueduct and stadium, but mostly they were in it for the money, and certainly did not deny this.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Amianthus

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2008, 08:26:27 AM »
1. Sirs defines taxation as "forcibly taking property." That definition is debatable.

If you don't pay your taxes, what happens?
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hnumpah

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Re: True intentions of Christ's teachings (Sirs)
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2008, 10:48:12 AM »
Matthew 12
1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.
2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?

See also Mark 2:23, Luke 6:1

The corn was not theirs, nor did the bread belong to David and his men, yet Jesus advocates taking it anyway.
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