Vote on arresting Bush, Cheney

[_JS]

There's really no point in belaboring the socialism in the Nazi party. The left has created their own meaning to the word in order to cover their fascist origins.

This isn't to say the modern American socialist is a fascist in the same manner as the National Socialist Party was in Germany. But they are fascist in their motivation and inclination.

Erm...socialism pre-dates Fascism by about two centuries, if not more. Socialist movements began in the 17th century, if not earlier depending on how one wants to define them.

Fascism began in the late 19th century. So I'm a little unclear as to how socialism has fascist origins when it pre-dates the other. That is akin to claiming that Judaism has Christian origins. Or the United Kingdom has American origins.

No, this is a tried and true testament to the right wing. Fascism was and still is a philosophy of the right. Franco was supported and beloved, not by the left-wing of Spain, but by the right-wing. Pinochet was loved and supported, not by the left wing of Chile and the United States, but by the right wing. Maggie Thatcher even called the guy a hero, long after his crimes were well known. Hitler himself was admired by industrial titans such as Henry Ford, hardly a bastion of socialist ideology and worker's rights! The Nationalist Party in South Africa was once again supported by the American and British right wing. It was nothing more than a Fascist party, some were openly sympathetic to Nazism. Thatcher and Reagan both supported them as being "anti-Communist."

Again and again we see the right wing of the United States has supported Fascist leaders and Fascist principles as well. While they may hate the historical conlusions to fascism in Italy and Germany, there is no denial that fascism was and is a right wing ideology. It may not be the ideology professed by most Americans on the right (just as most Americans on the left are not Communists), but it always amazes me how the right is in such dire need to revise history.

[Lanya]

JS:<<While they may hate the historical conlusions to fascism in Italy and Germany, there is no denial that fascism was and is a right wing ideology. It may not be the ideology professed by most Americans on the right (just as most Americans on the left are not Communists), but it always amazes me how the right is in such dire need to revise history.>>

They don't like it because the truth hurts, so they hire some dopey guy to write a book that has a cute cover, and voila, they get to hear something more pleasing than the truth. 

But what I wanted to point out was this article about Brattleboro, Vermont. Now people are emailing, calling and faxing them with very nasty messages.
Think of that!  People in Vermont take the trouble to have a meeting, to engage in participatory democracy and tell Bush and the rest of his gang just what they think.  And some people just can't stand that. 
   http://www.timesargus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080129/NEWS02/801290309/1003/NEWS02

[Michael Tee]

<<Think of that!  People in Vermont take the trouble to have a meeting, to engage in participatory democracy and tell Bush and the rest of his gang just what they think.  And some people just can't stand that. >>

Fascists can't stand that.  Nazis can't stand that.  Some people love war and hatred and killing so much that they are willing to choke off the most basic constitutional freedoms in order to shut up anyone who would stand in their way.  As ugly as Amerikkka has gotten in the past eight years, there's a good chance it's gonna  get a helluva lot uglier.

[Plane]

The father of Facism's father was a socialist.

Is this a tenuous link?


http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/people/A0859842.html

His father, an ardent Socialist, was a blacksmith; his mother was a teacher. Mussolini taught briefly and lived (1902?4) in Switzerland to avoid military service. He achieved national prominence for his opposition to the Libyan War (1911?12) and, as leader of the revolutionary left of the Socialist party, became editor of the Socialist daily Avanti (1913). Soon after World War I began, Mussolini abruptly turned nationalist and joined the pro-Allied interventionists. The Socialist party, which opposed all participation in nationalist wars, expelled him. He then founded his own daily, the Popolo d'Italia, which was subsidized by the French to encourage Italy's entry into the war on the side of the Allies. He joined (1915) the army and attained the rank of corporal.

Sections in this article:

[Rich]

>>They don't like it because the truth hurts ... <<

True. Todays liberals are fascist to the core, and the truth has always been to liberals like holy water to a vampire.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Mussolini evolved into a right wing leader.
No matter what his father believed, he was right wing to the core.
Hillary Clinton was all for Goldwater in college. So what?
What he liked most about some Socialists was the idea of dictatorship.

What Rich knows about politics he learned from Rush and other paid propagandists, and is simply wrong.

[Michael Tee]

Some folks are fascinated  with the label.  If the party label says "socialist," the party must be socialist.  Don't need to examine the policies, just look at the label.  Similarly if the guy's father was a socialist, if he himself was ever socialist one time in his life, he's a socialist.  People never can change opinions, the label they are given at age 20 is the one they will wear all their life.  Don't bother examining what they did, just look at the first label they ever wore.

Political analysis for morons.  Just pray that Rich doesn't do all his buying from mail-order catalogues.

[_JS]

Plane, Mussolini was a socialist and that is not in dispute. He became a right wing politician. I don't really see the "connection." As an example, while he was a socialist he was avidly against the colonialism of Italy in Eritrea and attempted expansion into Abyssinia. The argument was that Italy was not taking care of her own poor and working class, why are they subjugating another people to this same rule? Yet, after his conversion, he became a staunch militant and pro-colonialist. He wanted revenge for Adua.

I disagree that Mussolini is the "father of Fascism." He was the earliest to take action with it. He might be the equivalent of Fascism's Lenin, though without Lenin's penchant for theory. But, there were already Fascist thinkers and philosophers laying the groundwork before Mussolini.

Still, Socialism pre-dates Fascism by at least two centuries. These connections are extremely weak. Most of them come because either 1) people are deliberately trying to "cleanse" the right-wing of historical responsibility or 2) people do not understand early and mid 20th century politics and are trying to place modern 21st century political theory onto a different time period.

Listen, the right-wing of the time did not believe in what the right-wing of today does. Neo-liberalism had yet to be invented. Keynesianism was the radical new economics of the 1930's. Neoliberalism is very much an offshoot of Fascist economics. Yet, it simply cuts one side from the triangle of corporatism.

[_JS]

You know, another interesting difference in Fascists and Socialists, and something that still lingers in the right-wing today is a general disdain of culture and society.

Goering probably made the most famous statement regarding this: "When I hear someone speak of culture, I reach for my revolver."

I've read articles where a right-wing editorialist attacks something for "not being art" or "not being literature." Margaret Thatcher infamously disavowed the existence of society. Many arguments are made for not allowing any public funding for music, art, theater, dance, and other such cultural institutions.

Fascism was renowned for its loathing of the "cultural." Books, especially a book not glorifying warfare such as All is Quiet on the Western Front was considered anathema and outright banned and burnt by the Nazis. Militancy and the military were viewed as very sacred, to slander the military was an horrifying crime. They were the epitome of glory. To fight and die for the country was not a duty, it was an honor! Dancers, musicians, authors, artists - were useless losses of productivity. They might as well had been Roma or Jews.

[Rich]

>>Mussolini evolved into a right wing leader.<<

This is of course a left-wing fantasy. Italian fascism wasn't German fascism, but both were left wing and Mussolini was a hero to the American left, that is until he invaded Africa. Even then it wasn't the fascism that bothered the left, it was the aggression.

[sirs]

You know, another interesting difference in Fascists and Socialists, and something that still lingers in the right-wing today is a general disdain of culture and society.

    "Disdain for culture & society" huh?  Rings right up there with how all Republicans want women to die of Cancer.  I kinda thought better of you, Js.  Perhaps I was mistaken.  Or is your definition of disdain different than ...... most everyone else?

[Rich]

When you look at who is actually showing disdain for today's society, any rational person can see that the left is attempting to dismantle it and remake it in a socialist/fascist image. Homosexual marriage, government run healthcare, political correctness, hate crime laws, trans fat laws, anti-smoking laws, set asides, and quotas are all ways the left shows it's contempt for todays society. They want to reduce America to just another "citezen of the world," and care less about Americans than they do about what other countries think about Americans.

The idea that Conservatives disdain society is the rambling sickness of a socialist mind.

[Xavier_Onassis]

The idea that Conservatives disdain society is the rambling sickness of a socialist mind.
======================================================================
There is no image more annoying that I can recall that portrays the disdain for conservatives more than that of William F. Buckley fiddling with his mini-phallic pencil as he debated against unions, civil rights, taxing corporations in any way.

His tone of voice, his raised eyebrows, his gloomy bloodhound eyes were disdain personified, just as Dick Cheney is the military Industrial complex made flesh.

[Rich]

... disdain for civil rights ...

<chuckle>

Liberals really do create their own reality don't they.

[Lanya]

The rightwing fascists are at it again.   This time, they're making terrorist threats.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080130/ap_on_re_us/bush_warrant;_ylt=AoOIqyxZzF.v7W5yLfw.kO2s0NUE

 Vermont anti-Bush petition lambasted

By JOHN CURRAN, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 24 minutes ago

BRATTLEBORO, Vt. - A town petition making President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney subject to arrest for crimes against the Constitution has triggered a barrage of criticism from people who say residents are "wackjobs" and "nuts."
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In e-mail messages, voicemail messages and telephone calls, outraged people are calling the measure the equivalent of treason and vowing never to visit Vermont.

"Has everyone up there been out in the cold too long?" said one.

"I would like to know how I could get some water from your town," said another. "It's obvious that there is something special in it."

The petition ? with more than 436 signatures, or at least the 5 percent of voters necessary to be considered ? was submitted Thursday and the town Select Board voted 3-2 Friday to put it on the ballot. It goes to a town-wide vote March 4.

It reads: "Shall the Selectboard instruct the Town Attorney to draft indictments against President Bush and Vice President Cheney for crimes against our Constitution, and publish said indictments for consideration by other authorities and shall it be the law of the Town of Brattleboro that the Brattleboro Police, pursuant to the above-mentioned indictments, arrest and detain George Bush and Richard Cheney in Brattleboro if they are not duly impeached, and prosecute or extradite them to other authorities that may reasonably contend to prosecute them?"

News of the measure made the rounds on the Internet, and soon people started calling and writing. The Brattleboro Area Chamber of Commerce got about 60 e-mails Monday, all of them negative, said Executive Director Jerry Goldberg.

A day later, he said, "we had three or four calls in a row that were very positive. One even volunteered to help."

The petition has no legal standing, since the town attorney has no authority to write an indictment and the police have no authority to arrest Bush or Cheney if either visits Brattleboro.

Bush has not visited Vermont during his presidency; Cheney visited Burlington in 2002, but has not been to Brattleboro.

Anger at the Bush administration is hardly new in Vermont. The state Senate voted last year to support impeaching the president. Anti-war rallies are regular occurrences, and "Impeach Bush" bumper stickers are common.

The petition prompted Brent Caflisch to go to his computer in Rosemount, Minn. "Maybe the terrorists will do us all a favor and attack your town next, our country would be much safer with several thousand dead wackjobs in Vermont," he wrote.

It went on to say terrorists could kidnap the three Select Board members who voted in favor, "cut their heads off, video tape it and put it on the internet."

Caflisch, who confirmed sending the e-mail, said Tuesday he did it out of disgust after reading about the measure on The Drudge Report.

A few messages were positive ("Arrest Bush and Cheney? You go, Brattleboro!" wrote one man) but most were critical.

"Be American, not a sniffeling liberal town that sleeps under the shield of safety provided to you by your President," said another e-mail. "Vacation to VT CANCELLED!"

The reaction caught town officials off guard, and left some workers on edge.

"We have some concerns about safety," said Town Clerk Annette Cappy. "After reading some of these e-mails, you can't help it."

Acting Police Chief Eugene Wrinn said any threats would be taken seriously and possibly prosecuted. So far, no threats have been made, he said.

"If someone is concerned for their safety, if there's a threat of harm, we will look at that seriously," he said.

Resident Kurt Daims, who submitted the petition, said late Tuesday he was chagrined that the town and its employees were subject to ridicule.

"I feel bad for people who are loyal to Bush who have lost a son or had one in the service and it's hard for them to admit the utter waste of it, and that it was caused by this man in the White House," he said.

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