alright damn it- lets talk about it

[fatman]

That's ok. I was chastised recently for assuming that a thread topic is the topic that we should discuss.

Apparently, thread topics are just a suggestion.

Which thread was that and who chastised you Ami?  Thread drift is pretty common in here, but I can't say that I mind it a whole lot, it's interesting to me to see where it can go.

[Amianthus]

Which thread was that and who chastised you Ami?  Thread drift is pretty common in here, but I can't say that I mind it a whole lot, it's interesting to me to see where it can go.

Can't find it on the search, but when I said something like "we were discussing politics here" (because the thread included a reference to politics) I was criticized by several people for making the assumption that all of the responses should be seen in reference to politics.

I may look for it more later...

[Plane]

    If there were no people buying cigarettes there would be no demand for the government to controll or diminish them , if people going into McDonald's always asked for the salad McD would offer a larger selection of salad.


   For the government to fight and cross and controll the public there needs to be a compelling reason , the government should be reluctant to interfere in peoples lives and people should be eager to take good care of themselves so that the responsibility doesn't wind up in the governments hands.

  With responsibility comes authority andI dont want the government to gain authority over me that it doesn't really need , there  is plenty of that now and who really benefits from it?

  Imagine the government requireing every child to learn a second language , If they started in preschool it wouldn't be so hard , our nternational relations and trade would benefit a lot.
   Or should the Government suggest such instruction and make it availible without requireing it?
    Or should those who like the idea  push it priviately , telling everyone that it is just so cool to speak in Spanish or French ?

[Xavier_Onassis]

Imagine the government requireing every child to learn a second language , If they started in preschool it wouldn't be so hard , our nternational relations and trade would benefit a lot.
   Or should the Government suggest such instruction and make it availible without requireing it?
    Or should those who like the idea  push it priviately , telling everyone that it is just so cool to speak in Spanish or French ?

======================================================
Learning English is mandatory in the Netherlands, Scandinavia and most of Germany (the Eastern part is catching up-they used to require Russian)

The US government does not have the power to require this. In addition, we do not have even a tenth of the qualified teachers. Most often, some Sra. Garcia pops in twice a week. Then in the Sophomore year, Mr or Mrs Sanchez spends about 45 minutes five times a week asking ?C?mo se llama Ud.?  ?De d?nde es Ud.? ?A qu? hora se cepill? los dientes esta ma?ana? Judging from the students that have taken two or three years of this in MIami-Dade County Public Schools who appear in my ELEMENTARY SPANISH I classes, little is learned, less is remembered. French, being harder in both pronunciation and spelling, is even less effective.

The important features of FL instruction in Europe takes place after the third or fourth grade. Academic subjectsd other than English are taught in English. Pretty much every Jr Hi and Sr Hi teacher is fluent in English in these countries. Here, 90% of our FL teachers are immigrants, most of whom do not have enough knowledge of the mechanics of the English language to teach their FL effectively. Most English majors have never actually been exposed to the grammar of English, other than remedial grammar, which is hardly the same thing.

The government decreeing that FL should be taught would not work, because the law cannot provide the teachers. Getting the teachers would have to start with a total restructuring of English  and FL teachers in the US, starting at the college level. It would be quite expensive, because there is little to start with, and teaching is so poorly paid that there are not enough bright people who major in it.

There is a will to learn English in the Netherlands, in Scandinavia, in Belgium and even France. This will does not exist in the US, not among the people, their children, their superintendents of schools, their school boards.

I saw the last of the Lord of the Rings films in Paris in 2003. There were two giant theatres in the multiplex and several smaller ones. One of these showed the film dubbed in French, another in English with subtitles in French. We saw it in the latter. The huge theatre was crammed to capacity, maybe 2,000 people. There would be no such occurrence in any theatre outside NYC in the US for any FL film. Americans do not know enough French (or any other language) to want to see it in the original.

The official motto of the US is "E Pluribus Unum", but the real motto is "I took Spanish in High School but I don't remember anything."

Well, maybe "Yo quiero Taco Bell.
They still haven't related to "Me encanta Mc Donald's" (=I'm lovin' it.)

[Cynthia]

The US government does not have the power to require this. In addition, we do not have even a tenth of the qualified teachers. Most often, some Sra. Garcia pops in twice a week. Then in the Sophomore year, Mr or Mrs Sanchez spends about 45 minutes five times a week asking ?C?mo se llama Ud.?  ?De d?nde es Ud.? ?A qu? hora se cepill? los dientes esta ma?ana? Judging from the students that have taken two or three years of this in MIami-Dade County Public Schools who appear in my ELEMENTARY SPANISH I classes, little is learned, less is remembered. French, being harder in both pronunciation and spelling, is even less effective.



That's exactly what happens in New Mexican public schools, XO. right on!

We did away with Spanish classes this year for the first time, because of our need to teach reading and math.

The only areas left beyond reading and math during our day is grammar, writing, and PE, library..but I have preached this issue enough on here. ha! We've thrown the baby out with the bathwater. We're all such good little teachers..we follow Sr. Bush. He knows everything. He's such a great leader.  We promise not to leave ONE child behind, sir!

OTOH; I happen to think that we have been wasting our time teaching 45 minutes of Spanish four days a week, when the children still do not know the difference between Verde and Azul ---by the 3rd grade!!

In some ways, I am glad to have the time to teach during those mandated 45 min. The kids hated Spanish classes for the very reasons you have expressed, XO.  It's no different here.
Languages are beautiful tools, don't get me wrong, but they have to be taught...not brushed like butter on garlic bread. The children ended up resenting the language in the end. That's not what bi-lingual ed should be about.

Re invent? Yes, perhaps.

Let's make sure all of our kids can read and compute, first.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Imagine that, abolishing Spanish classes in the only officially bilingual state.

I graduated from NMSU in 'Cruces in 1964. I would imagine that one hears quite a bit more Spanish there than in Rio Rancho.
I find it ghastly that after something like TEN YEARS of English in grades 3 through 12, most of my students cannot speak three sentences without making some major error in English, of precisely the sort that English classes are supposed to eliminate.

Not only do we not teach the structure of English, and only focus on the remediation of nonstandard grammar, we don't even do this well.

I have met Dutchmen, Belgians, Germans and Danes that speak American-accented English so well that they could be Americans raised in the USA. Their foreignness is only apparent when they misuse idioms and slang.

We don't even come close in Spanish, a far easier language with fewer sounds and a totally logical spelling system, or certainly not as often.

[BT]

I was in line the other day at Kroger. Two Hispanic ladies were buying a pack of cigarettes. The Jamaican cashier was requesting proof of age. The Hispanics did not understand. I asked the ladies in pidgen Spanish how old they were, probably something i picked up watching the OJ chase on Univision, basically asking how many years. They said something in the forties. I gave the cashier a fake birthdate. They gracias'd me and i de nada'd them and all was well in the checkout line. Jane Fonda was not on the cover of any of the tabloids.

[Plane]

I was in line the other day at Kroger. Two Hispanic ladies were buying a pack of cigarettes. The Jamaican cashier was requesting proof of age. The Hispanics did not understand. I asked the ladies in pidgen Spanish how old they were, probably something i picked up watching the OJ chase on Univision, basically asking how many years. They said something in the forties. I gave the cashier a fake birthdate. They gracias'd me and i de nada'd them and all was well in the checkout line. Jane Fonda was not on the cover of any of the tabloids.

I have had that sort of conversation , in which grammer is absent and the tiny mutual knoledge must suffice.

XO do you consider Foreign language instruction the sort of national priority that deserves big government involvement?

[Xavier_Onassis]

I have had that sort of conversation , in which grammar is absent and the tiny mutual knowledge must suffice.

XO do you consider Foreign language instruction the sort of national priority that deserves big government involvement?

======================================================================================
There are tow essential parts to speaking a language: (a)Vocabulary~ you must know the words, and (b) Grammar ~ you must know how to  use the words to convey meaning. It really isn't possible to say ANYTHING without grammar being involved. The right forms of the words must be used, and the words must be in the proper order, or close to it. Grammar is NEVER absent. It is possible that in some cases, the order of the words and perhaps the forms o0f the words are the same in both the FL and one's native language.

for example, How old are you? translated directly into Spanish with no attention to grammar would be totally unintelligible to any Spanish speaker, something like Como viejo ser usted?, which either would mean How did you get so old, or gibberish.

Spanish phrases this as ? Cu?ntos a?os tiene usted?  How many years (have~ third person sl. of the present indicative tense) you (formal singular form)?

You could memorize the entire question in Spanish as being the equivalent of the entire question in English, and that would not necessitate knowing the grammar, but the words would still be the proper forms in the proper order. The answer (I am forty years old) would be equivalent of I have forty years (Yo tengo cuarenta a?os.) and you could leave the subject pronoun yo off because it isn't required by Spanish as it is by English.

My point is that there is no understanding possible  of sentences beyond "yes" and "no" without some knowledge of grammar, either by knowing the grammar, or by memorizing the correct words.

==============================================================
I don't know whether "big government involvement" would solve the problem of the lack of FL fluency in the US. I don't think that it is constitutional for the feds to dictate what the curriculum of our schools should be as it is for the governments of Sweden, Germany, France or the Netherlands.

Obviously, one reason why Iraq has been so difficult to fight is due to the total lack of literacy and fluency of our troops in Arabic. In addition to being totally ignorant of the culture as well. Our troops might as well be speaking Klingon and acting like Star Trek Klingons as speaking and behaving as they do. They are entirely dependent on their interpreters, and at least some of these are opposed to their being in Iraq.
 They translate whatever they wish. "This fool thinks you are a Sunni: tell him you have no weapons or he will arrest you."

We have no business bashing down the doors of Iraqis and telling them what sort of government they must have, of course, and there is zero possibility that we are going to ever have any sizeable population of Arabic speakers in our military.

Certainly, we are lucky that we speak English, which is as much an international language as any other that might prove useful.

I don't foresee the US as a nation, as states or as school districts ever providing adequate instruction in any FL for at least a century. No one in charge gives a damn.

But it still would be a great boon to the people in many, many ways.
As Anatole France said, "When you learn a new language, you gain a soul."  It's like a pianists learning the guitar or the bassoon.

[kimba1]

awhile back my cousin was helping give3 directions to a french family here in S.F.
my cousin was borne in america so he doesn`t know metric and the french family doesn`t know american measurement
but strangely when my cous try to use blocks and actrually point to the block thier standing on is 1 block and told them simply walk 4 blocks the french guy kept asking kilometers.
it shows americans are not the slowest folks
 I know metric but I`d woud of said 4 blocks
I doubt I would bother figuring with kilometer

[Cynthia]

This is my first year as an ESL endorsed teacher. I have one ESL student......Native American child.
Grandpa speaks the native language of Keresan --a lect of the Acoma Pueblo. The student's mother's side of the family is from the Isleta Pueblo where they speak TEWA.

The grandfather comes to all the parent teacher conferences and is the only one in the family who still speaks the native tongue. He is a fun character. He is proud. He and his son, my student's father, never really look me directly in the eye. But grandpa is direct and vocal. He wants to know why we area teaching the metric systme. HE does not have a centimeter at home and does not see why I ask the children to use such a tool for homework. . .

Gosh,according to the census dept. out of about 1700 people in land of Acoma and surrounding pueblos, I am in conversation with one of those individuals (grandfather Pino)each time we conference. That's is so amazing to me.. wow!

Stories he tells....He was punished as a child for speaking his native language. That's a shame.

He could be passing on this language to his grandson, but he does not. That's also a shame. . . and too bad. His grandson is pure pueblo. Rare these days. I have had to shelter a bit of his instruction only because of the fact that he does not understand the math in class. Not due to any lanugage issue, but culturally, I can see that his grandfather and father do not want to learn the white man's way. Intersting, but true. THe Pueblo people are so very gentle and artistic. I would think that my student would be creative in his thinking about mathematics, but he is not allowed to...ironic. His grandfather....the power arm of the family, has somehow taken on that white man way as he is stuck in the idea that if the system isn't broken, why fix it. A sort of stiff armed male.....not willing to change, yet the way he speaks.....it sounds more like my own father's generation.....a sort of Republican stance.....

anyway....
 We are a bi-lingual school, and for the past 25+ years we have offered a "maintenance program" for the students.  In turn, we receive funds for every child who is a PHLOTE, ELL child. In fact those funds pay for one warm bodied teacher. If a child has even one family member who speaks a second language in the family...be they grandparents, aunts, uncles....then that child is a considered a PHLOTE child (*primary home language other than English)*. If that child needs special eduation, it takes the act of congress to receive help...due to so many law suits against the system. I can see why...but it is also cutting off the nose to spite the face.
Currently we are only providing the "thread of classes" to those students who are mono lingual Spanish speakers. Many of those kids have arrived here directly from Mexico.

In the past, we've provided Spanish for all the children in the school. Now that the NCLB act is up our behinds...we have thrown that part away..at least for now....

The grandfather who is Native Acoma is outraged that his grandson has to be "counted and tested" in order for the system/school district we can make a buck. I don't blame him,really...but I guess I can see the point. XO, you might know more about why such a criteria exists....ie.PHLOTE child=anyone who lives with a family member that speaks a second language...even though that child is not directly spoken to in that language. ...that child is suddenly treated differently in the system.


If any child has a relative who speaks a second language, ..and even if that child has never been exposed to the language...the Government has decided that that child could be in need of  ELL, ESL services, testing etc.

Language....love it....

My own heritage of Penn. Dutch----Irish...

"Tie the dog lose and let him run the alley up"
Heard it a lot growing up....
as I did this:

Redd up the room.
I use that to this day. I thought everyone used that word.
It is exclusive to the Penn. Dutch folks, apparently.
By the way...the photo on my profile is a storytellerdoll. Cochiti Pueblo art.
I collect these dolls.

[The_Professor]

The US government does not have the power to require this. In addition, we do not have even a tenth of the qualified teachers. Most often, some Sra. Garcia pops in twice a week. Then in the Sophomore year, Mr or Mrs Sanchez spends about 45 minutes five times a week asking ?C?mo se llama Ud.?  ?De d?nde es Ud.? ?A qu? hora se cepill? los dientes esta ma?ana? Judging from the students that have taken two or three years of this in MIami-Dade County Public Schools who appear in my ELEMENTARY SPANISH I classes, little is learned, less is remembered. French, being harder in both pronunciation and spelling, is even less effective.



That's exactly what happens in New Mexican public schools, XO. right on!

We did away with Spanish classes this year for the first time, because of our need to teach reading and math.

The only areas left beyond reading and math during our day is grammar, writing, and PE, library..but I have preached this issue enough on here. ha! We've thrown the baby out with the bathwater. We're all such good little teachers..we follow Sr. Bush. He knows everything. He's such a great leader.  We promise not to leave ONE child behind, sir!

OTOH; I happen to think that we have been wasting our time teaching 45 minutes of Spanish four days a week, when the children still do not know the difference between Verde and Azul ---by the 3rd grade!!

In some ways, I am glad to have the time to teach during those mandated 45 min. The kids hated Spanish classes for the very reasons you have expressed, XO.  It's no different here.
Languages are beautiful tools, don't get me wrong, but they have to be taught...not brushed like butter on garlic bread. The children ended up resenting the language in the end. That's not what bi-lingual ed should be about.

Re invent? Yes, perhaps.

Let's make sure all of our kids can read and compute, first.

Well, I even know Azul. Learned it the other day watching Dora the Explorer with my 3 year old! It means Blue, right?

[Cynthia]

Well, I even know Azul. Learned it the other day watching Dora the Explorer with my 3 year old! It means Blue, right?

Azul...Ah True!

http://www.drlemon.net/grammar/colors.html

[Xavier_Onassis]

The grandfather who is Native Acoma is outraged that his grandson has to be "counted and tested" in order for the system/school district we can make a buck. I don't blame him,really...but I guess I can see the point. XO, you might know more about why such a criteria exists....ie.PHLOTE child=anyone who lives with a family member that speaks a second language...even though that child is not directly spoken to in that language. ...that child is suddenly treated differently in the system.
====================================================
I don't know anything about the PHLOTE bit. I assume that the idea is to provide help where it is needed, and since the government can only issue money, that is what it does. I doubt that there are any certified Acoma Pueblo teachers about to spend the money on in your district, but somehow the certification is more important than the knowledge.

I suppose that in some cases, it is...

[Cynthia]

I often wonder if bilingual ed was not in our state constitution?? if you will....if children would be experiening what grandpa did years ago....shut up and only speak English!

I suppose being trained to assist and focus on any child who is in need of a lift in language acquisition is a good thing.
I had lunch with my professor of Linguistics again today. Gawd, I would love to own even one tenth of the knowledge you all share in this field.


anyway...I applaud you, XO. thanks again..you are a bright one on this board. I enjoy your read.
Cindy