Author Topic: California judge says no to homeschooling  (Read 111059 times)

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Cynthia

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #165 on: March 19, 2008, 12:53:02 AM »
Holding a teacher accountable for reaching those standards in no way inhibits innovation and new techniques  as long as the results meet the prescribed standards. 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Well see, there is the problem. We don't really KNOW how people learn the most effectively. If you experiment with a new technique, it might not work at all. Most likely, it will be effective for some, but not others, since not ever person learns the same way.The people at the forefront of learning theory are not Doctors of education, but Doctors of Brain physiology, and they have yet to apply their findings in any effective way to serious educational theory and/or experimentation.

The purpose of any experiment is to see what works and what does not. If the teacher tries something and it does not produce better results than the previous method, he has succeeded as a scientist, but failed as a teacher to the degree that his hypothesis did not work out. And he will no doubt catch hell for trying something new.

If his hypothesis works, then he is a hero, of course.

As for competition, the very WORST example is in high school sports. The kids that make the team are only a small percentage of all the students for whom physical exercise is advantageous. The kids who really needs physical training--the fat kids, the wimpy kids, the scrawny nerds--never make the team. They sit on the benches even during PE class, And the kids who need physical training the very least make the team and nearly all the money is spent on them.

This may aid in producing a few professional athletes, but it shortchanges at least 90% of the student body even in the smallest high schools.

Spelling bees in ONE class might be useful to the students. It becomes less and less useful as the total group becomes larger. Eventually we end up discovering that one 12 year old Southeast Asian girl is the only human in the nation who can spell everything, at which point it is a lot more a freak show than an educational exercise.


And, no, in most schools the teachers are far too overworked to try innovative techniques in any scientifically useful way. Not following the prescribed lesson plan is going to get any beginning teacher fired for sure. Your best chjance is to teach in a school everyone considers hopeless, like the Chicano Garfield High in the film Stand and Deliver.



The kids who really needs physical training--the fat kids, the wimpy kids, the scrawny nerds--never make the team. They sit on the benches even during PE class, And the kids who need physical training the very least make the team and nearly all the money is spent on them.


This is where I stand as liberal as they come.....as I am reading this, XO, I find it interesting that the "bottom line" for most adults in this country is about power, money, money and ...money.
Oh, and looking better than anyone else in the world...even though we look like fools most of the time.
Sometimes, I feel that America is so focused on that bottom dollar line that we are willing to let a lot more than kids sit on the side lines .... (buidling up fat, pondering poor habits, and bashing the hell out of self esteem)

Be damned the kids who need to be helped. Be damned if it means success at all cost. Mission accomplished.
The same goes for our new focus on making the grade in education/school/ classrooms etc.

Be damned the child who can't learn the same way as Jose or Idell, we MUST LOOK GOOD. We must compete at all cost.

Side lines? I see those kids struggling and having to sit through entire lessons ...and you know what? They fall asleep sometimes because of lack of good parenting. Pure and simple.

And BT has the nerve to say that it is all about a "challenge" to teachers?
Crap bull crap!

Your post is very good, Xavier. Damn.I appreciate that you have an insight into teaching at all levels not just the college level. For that, I thank you. You have always impressed me as a damn good educator...not because I agree with you necessarily, but because you are not afraid to speak up for those teachers who work their asses off at any level. ..and for the sake of the children who deserve more.

Cynthia

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #166 on: March 19, 2008, 01:12:38 AM »



"Holding a teacher accountable for reaching those standards."

Ok...who the heck said that teachers should not be held accountable. Damn, most working class, educated people are accountable in some way or another.  Perhaps there are other factors that hender or hold back a child from learning? You think?



Sometimes, I feel that this issue is politically driven, and yet...NO ONE WILL CARE about the solution to the problem after the election. Not really.

We all want and deserve accountability in our world. I find this bashing and arm chair arrogance against teachers in this country sickening.

BT

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #167 on: March 19, 2008, 01:18:41 AM »
Yes competition exists. And the schools are charged with preparing future generations with meeting that competitive challenge and it doesn't matter if the graduate competes with their neighbor or someone half way around the world.

It's criminal that some high school graduates (not drop outs) can't fill out job applications. It's criminal that a large number of incoming college freshmen are required to take remedial courses ( XO has testified to this).

Cynthia

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #168 on: March 19, 2008, 01:24:12 AM »
Yes competition exists. And the schools are charged with preparing future generations with meeting that competitive challenge and it doesn't matter if the graduate competes with their neighbor or someone half way around the world.

It's criminal that some high school graduates (not drop outs) can't fill out job applications. It's criminal that a large number of incoming college freshmen are required to take remedial courses ( XO has testified to this).

It is not alway the teacher's fault, BT.

You don't seem to understand that.

It is not just about said child having had a bad teacher..lest they have had 12 years of bad teachers?

Perhaps there's more to the story. Come on , man think....

there are so many other elements in play here.

How about the pressures in the world of the young teen today....etc.

In the old days, working at Dairy Queen or Mac Dee's helped a young buck or lass step up into the world.

Now, you are either a wall street broker, or you're nobody. That's stretching it a bit, but I do believe that the pressures are greater in the world today. It's not all about teachers, or systems. Not all.

Times have changed, and it is just possible that the times in which we live have affected young people.

 


« Last Edit: March 19, 2008, 01:30:07 AM by Cynthia »

BT

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #169 on: March 19, 2008, 02:02:01 AM »
Quote
It is not alway the teacher's fault, BT.

Never said it was. The problem is systemic. Parents, teachers, students, administrators and the government.

Every part of the equation needs to be examined . Hard.

It's no time for excuse. It's past time to fix the problem. NCLB is a start. It isn't the complete solution.

A combination of strategies would work, Vouchers, charter schools, magnet schools, vocational tracks for the academically disinclined, schools to handle behavior problems and even home schools.



kimba1

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #170 on: March 19, 2008, 02:33:07 AM »
my nephew told me teachers grade in a curve and understand that it encourages poor performance since if one students is extremely bright it would lower everbody elses grades and discourages performance but if everyone gets average or less than everybody benefits.

the theory was to encourage better performance ,but somehow never factor in students get discouraged with fluctuating test scores
ex. 85% =b today ,c+ tommorow

what is the logic for the bright student to raise test score and hurt everrybodies grade
when he still get the same grade doing average.

Cynthia

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #171 on: March 19, 2008, 02:51:04 AM »


"Never said it was. The problem is systemic. Parents, teachers, students, administrators and the government. "


I beg to differ...you are constantly complaining that teachers need to be accountable and not once have I read these words from your end, BT..with all due respect.....The problem is systemic. Parents, teachers, students, administrators and the government. "


Ok, then, you know for a fact that charter schools are better than public schools? Private schools offer more, I agree, but some Charter schools are no better than Public Schools, in our city.

 In fact, where I live, they are dumping grounds for many behaviorally challenged kids. Sure the Charter Schools promote and promise to offer only the best education. The main issue will come down to clear and precise studies of  the differences among all the choices of schools...This is true.

Charter schools promise such things as quality education, individualized attention, computer lap tops for every child!!! Oh, that's a real attractive bait.....

But, in the end, will they really offer any more than other institution? I have heard back from parents who enrolled their child in a charter school that offered such attractions, and they were severly disappointed.

 I do agree that home schooling is becoming a truly attractive element these days...but I am also broad stoking  a bit here, based on the lack of freedom I have as a teacher. If we take into consideration that the parent is well qualified and educated  in education ...i.e. child development, curriculum and "learning styles".
Home schooling?
Why not?
Give a child the chance to experience learning first hand as he/she is allowed to be immersed and directly engaged in the learning process one on one, at home,  at the zoo,  in a museum, at the local Explora science museum,........... not to mention visits to quality libraries--all clear and precise targets for a quality education, sans the  social interaction and feedback from other young minds, which is also important.


My point?   Charter, Vouchers, Private, ...who's to say ...who's to PROVE that the "grass is greener on the other side"?

I suppose in the end, it will come down to things proven through data and  evidence, through time and honest assessments of all systems in question.

We'll see.

For now, all we can hope for in the PS is a richer attention paid to the NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND ACT! A richer attention, indeed. Make it work.

Pray for rain.

Cynthia

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #172 on: March 19, 2008, 02:52:44 AM »
my nephew told me teachers grade in a curve and understand that it encourages poor performance since if one students is extremely bright it would lower everbody elses grades and discourages performance but if everyone gets average or less than everybody benefits.

the theory was to encourage better performance ,but somehow never factor in students get discouraged with fluctuating test scores
ex. 85% =b today ,c+ tommorow

what is the logic for the bright student to raise test score and hurt everrybodies grade
when he still get the same grade doing average.

Kim,
We are doing away with grade averaging in our system. We are headed into a standard-based reporting system.

It is a good idea.


BT

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #173 on: March 19, 2008, 06:29:52 AM »
Quote
My point?   Charter, Vouchers, Private, ...who's to say ...who's to PROVE that the "grass is greener on the other side"?

And my point is that if more time were spent improving the public school product instead of protecting public school jobs, maybe , just maybe , we wouldn't be in this mess.

Cynthia

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #174 on: March 19, 2008, 01:50:56 PM »
Quote
My point?   Charter, Vouchers, Private, ...who's to say ...who's to PROVE that the "grass is greener on the other side"?

And my point is that if more time were spent improving the public school product instead of protecting public school jobs, maybe , just maybe , we wouldn't be in this mess.


I believe that more time, money, attention should be spent on what is already working well in the public schools. Protecting jobs is protecting children in the end. There's nothing wrong with having good job security. We disagree with one point vehemently. ....we are in a mess, currently because of the lack of best practices on the part of the NCLB ACT.
The NEA has done more for children than you believe, BT. We will probably never agree on that issue.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2008, 01:55:26 PM by Cynthia »

Amianthus

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #175 on: March 19, 2008, 02:00:19 PM »
Protecting jobs is protecting children in the end.

So, protecting this guy's job will protect students?
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

sirs

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #176 on: March 19, 2008, 02:23:00 PM »
Quote
My point?   Charter, Vouchers, Private, ...who's to say ...who's to PROVE that the "grass is greener on the other side"?

And my point is that if more time were spent improving the public school product instead of protecting public school jobs, maybe , just maybe , we wouldn't be in this mess.

I believe that more time, money, attention should be spent on what is already working well in the public schools. Protecting jobs is protecting children in the end.

NOT, when your protecting ALL jobs, including the incompotent and predatorial folk.  That then is at the detriment of the child.  Again, what's the priority??  Job security trumps the children??  And lest we all be reminded, the amount of money we already pay per pupil is incredible.  To continue the mantra we need more money, when it's been shown there is no direct correlation to more money = better education, is also a diservice to the education of the children, and simply seeks to perpetuate the status quo


« Last Edit: March 19, 2008, 03:06:27 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

kimba1

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #177 on: March 19, 2008, 03:15:51 PM »
sir`s I understand what your saying
remove the job security and make it performance base and natural selection will weedout the bad teachers.
the problem is it punishes the good teachers by living a unstable life and that teacher can never try new methods for risking the job.
also how does this attract good teachers?
keep your job is not a incentive to hire people.
people forget thier place in regard to teachers
bad teachers need tenure to work good teachers can go somewhere else to work
ex.I posted a few years ago a coach taught college level courses to his team to get them college credits.
he got fired for it but he got work the next week
seriuosly what school wouldn`t want him.

BT

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #178 on: March 19, 2008, 03:33:16 PM »
Quote
I believe that more time, money, attention should be spent on what is already working well in the public schools.

If it were working so well there would be no need for NCLB, remedial courses in college and teacher fears of being held accountable.


Cynthia

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #179 on: March 19, 2008, 03:43:26 PM »
Quote
I believe that more time, money, attention should be spent on what is already working well in the public schools.

If it were working so well there would be no need for NCLB, remedial courses in college and teacher fears of being held accountable.



I believe the NCLB is a good idea.....and it might just provide a better ps system..I have said all along that it is flawed.

That has been my point from day one.

We are not afraid of being accountable, BT. I don't hear/see that where I work.

Perhaps the educators in your community feel that way.