Author Topic: 10 Dead in Israel Seminary Massacre  (Read 3286 times)

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Christians4LessGvt

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Re: 10 Dead in Israel Seminary Massacre
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2008, 08:24:41 PM »
Michael are you really trying to argue there is moral equivalence between
purposely targeting civilians at a religious school and the leaders praising
those civilian deaths and civilians killed in collateral damage?
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

sirs

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Re: 10 Dead in Israel Seminary Massacre
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2008, 08:28:08 PM »
Ends justify the means, for many on the left      :-\
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: 10 Dead in Israel Seminary Massacre
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2008, 08:57:04 PM »
Michael are you really trying to argue there is moral equivalence between
purposely targeting civilians at a religious school and the leaders praising
those civilian deaths and civilians killed in collateral damage?

===============================================================

I just don't buy that collateral damage is really an accident.  If I fire a few rockets into an apartment building, where do I get off saying, "Oh I wasn't really aiming them at anyone, how'd I know someone was gonna get hurt?"

That's just total bullshit, 4.  If I give an order to fire twenty rounds of heavy artillery into a residential district, somebody's gonna get hit or maybe not.  When I give the order, I know there's a good chance somebody's gonna get hurt, could be a toddler, could be a granny.  I'm guilty just as if I targeted.  The guy who gives the order from which carnage could result is responsible for the carnage that does result.

The Israelis deliberately targeted a man whom they knew to be a violent leader of a violent group, not to punish him for what he had done in the past (that kind of thing is best left to the courts) but to stop him from acting against them in the future.  Whoever ordered that hit is responsible for the damage to Imad Mughniyeh but also for the spillover consequences of the act, for whatever retaliatory actions Hezbollah might take.  And they probably knew that there was a reasonable chance (not necessarily a certainty) that revenge would be exacted.

Amerikkkans and Israelis somehow excuse all their actions by crying "collateral damage" as if that solves anything.  The victim is still dead and whoever dropped the bomb or fired the shot had to know that a possible consequence of his action might be exactly what did happen.

You have to go on the theory that all actions have consequences.  The Amerikkkans and the Israelis are way too quick to excuse themselves on the grounds that the consequences were unintended.  That's a crock and no one else, least of all the victims, is likely to grant the same absolution.  The act itself was intended - -  if the consequences were unknowable with any certainty, but the worst-case outcome (a slaughter of the innocents) was at least known to be a possibility, then the act was committed without concern for the worst consequences.  It was reckless. 

To commit a reckless act that might cause death or serious injury is no different than to commit a deliberate act of attempted murder - - after all, how does the sniper know that he is going to hit his mark?  Is the sniper innocent because he didn't know for sure when he fired that he'd hit his mark?  Why should guilt or innocence hinge on whether the guy knew the consequences of his action with absolute certainty before he acted?  If the act was potentially hazardous to innocent human life, that's all I need to know.  He's guilty.

Michael Tee

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Re: 10 Dead in Israel Seminary Massacre
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2008, 09:17:53 PM »
<<Ends justify the means, for many on the left  >>

Hey, how'd you get in?  This was supposed to be an adult discussion.  Why don't you go back to figuring out how all the carnage in Iraq is somehow worth it because now the lucky bastards have "democracy?"  Ends and means, my ass.   Sanctimonious prick. 

sirs

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Re: 10 Dead in Israel Seminary Massacre
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2008, 09:57:12 PM »
<<Ends justify the means, for many on the left  >>

Hey, how'd you get in?  This was supposed to be an adult discussion. 

Free Speech.  How'd you?  The discussion is supposed to be limited to the Human species, within this reality


Why don't you go back to figuring out how all the carnage in Iraq is somehow worth it because now the lucky bastards have "democracy?"  

Don't have to go far.  Our Revolutionary war had "a few" deaths, and was well worth the price of Democracy.  WWII could be added to that list as well


Ends and means, my ass.    

It is for the must-fit-template crowd.  It's demonstrated over and over and over again
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: 10 Dead in Israel Seminary Massacre
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2008, 10:11:39 PM »
<<Don't have to go far.  Our Revolutionary war had "a few" deaths, and was well worth the price of Democracy.  WWII could be added to that list as well>>

Ahhh.  So the ends DO justify the means.  Gotcha.

sirs

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Re: 10 Dead in Israel Seminary Massacre
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2008, 02:56:34 AM »
<<Don't have to go far.  Our Revolutionary war had "a few" deaths, and was well worth the price of Democracy.  WWII could be added to that list as well>>

Ahhh.  So the ends DO justify the means. 

Yea, the right to exist, and be free would be ends that would mandate MOST means.  However strangely, that doesn't include bombing of seminaries, buses, schools, or the targeting of men, women & children to be murdered.
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: 10 Dead in Israel Seminary Massacre
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2008, 02:45:48 PM »
However strangely, that doesn't include bombing of seminaries, buses, schools, or the targeting of men, women & children to be murdered.

================================================
So targeting Ceauceascu and his wife for assassination in the goal of achieving freedom in Romania would not be justified?
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: 10 Dead in Israel Seminary Massacre
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2008, 02:48:08 PM »
Who?
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: 10 Dead in Israel Seminary Massacre
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2008, 02:58:03 PM »
You have never heard of Nicolai Ceascueau?  Really?

The most unforgettable experiences of my life took place in the summers of 1985 and 1987. Then it was that I visited the beautiful Romanian brothers, as they suffered under Ceaucescu?s brand of Communism.I wrote this report when I got back from the 1987 trip, for those who had supported the work. It?s still a part of my heart, and so I share it with you now...

Before I begin

I spent one of the hottest of Chicago?s 1996 summer days packing boxes on a 40-foot container on its way to a still-impoverished Romania, and loving every minute of it. That?s the kind of thing Romania will do to you. In fact, I remember another hot summer night, while preaching in my ?other? country, 1987, when it seemed that the Spirit of God came upon me and I found myself vowing to this congregation and all Romania the very words of Jewish exiles regarding Jerusalem(Psalm 137:5,6), ?If I forget you...? It would seem that God has taken that vow seriously and that I must never be too far from lending a helping hand to brothers and sisters in Christ over there.

Now, things have changed, as you well know. The Romanians rose up and took power from Ceauceascu in 1989, put him on trial, and shot him. Liberty after 40 years! Dancing in the streets, and in the churches and in the homes, and...What a joyful moment.

However, much has remained the same. There is more liberty, but not a lot more food. That?s why the Romanian Mission of Chicago, for whom I was working on that sultry afternoon, still sends its love with packages, not just wishes. So as you read, you can mentally weed out the part about the ?party?, but understand that?s it?s still no ?party? over there. Your prayers for some of God?s choicest saints, purified by the fire, would be in order...

Why "word" pictures?

My camera didn?t go with me this year. Cameras cost money, take up space, and sometimes scare people. Besides that, they brand me as an American tourist and make me the center of attention at times when I really don?t want to be.

So all summer I was taking ?word? pictures. I?ve re-organized them, polished them a little, put them in readable form, taken some names and places out... It is my prayer that the images created by these words stay with you a long time.

Beauty Under Pressure

She is as beautiful a young lady as one could ever hope to meet. Her beauty is of the genuine type that springs from inner purity and a basic simplicity. At eighteen, she lives for the coming again of Christ, the fellowship of saints, the work of souls.

Constantly she is under surveillance, harrassment, and the pressure of caring for a home, as most of the domestic responsibilities in her family fall upon her and her aging grandmother. Father lives in another town. Other close family members are in America.

She is...beauty under pressure. She is to me symbolic of a nation. What a beautiful people are the Romanians! Handsome, polite, emotion-filled. But what a pressured people are they also! Some say this pressure has caused one in every three Romanians to, in some way, work for the secret police. I seriously doubt this estimate, but most live as though it were true. Trust level is amazingly low at times. Everyone suspects everyone. It?s the kind of tension certain governments feel are necessary to maintain control...for the people?s sake, of course.

Beauty...under pressure. That?s one picture of Romania, especially the Romanian church. Not far from what ought to be the norm of all of Christ?s people.

Poverty

Poverty is relative and means a lot of things to a lot of people. But speaking in terms of monetary values, Romania is at about the bottom of the European list.

At least the great majority of Romanians are poor. As a western student in a Romanian university, I must say I fared pretty well. Contacts we made for Christ ?in the party? uncovered some prosperity, too.

But the average Romanian, which includes virtually all the villagers, have a standard of living Americans would have trouble believing. I have seen gas lines, bread lines, milk lines. I have seen store after store selling essentially the same few products, with an over-supply of things like jellies and noodles and crackers that guarantees each item will be weeks or months old.

Very few cars, few TV?s. Few TV programs on the few TV?s, and they come from Russia, and so are ignored by many.

Occasionally a visiting dignitary will evoke a sudden display of meat or fresh vegetables in the market place, but before noon it will all be gone, as swarms of Romanians snatch it up.

Romanians are extremely poor. But Romania is extremely bountiful. Romanian crops are being sold to neighboring countries, though, so that dictator Ceauceascu can pay off his considerable indebtedness. It?s called austerity...and other things, by the people.

Of course, he says, it is only temporary austerity.The Romanians know it to be temporary insanity as they slowly starve themselves into sickness and death.

Satan thus has a grip on Romania with one of his favorite vices. Romania needs a change. God is able to pull Ceauceascu?s strings any time He needs to. Pray that it will be soon. [It was a little more than two years after this writing that the ?Revolution? took place, and Romania entered the ?free? world.]


"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: 10 Dead in Israel Seminary Massacre
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2008, 03:24:16 PM »
Still missing the point you're trying to make, Xo, and how it relates to targeting and murdering innocent civilians.  Ready to clarify it, yet?
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: 10 Dead in Israel Seminary Massacre
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2008, 04:43:39 PM »
Still missing the point you're trying to make, Xo, and how it relates to targeting and murdering innocent civilians.  Ready to clarify it, yet?

Now you have changed the topic.

The original topic is that you claimed that targeting men, women and children for murder is never justified by the means.

No, I am not "ready to clarify" anything, because you insist on changing the topic. Figure it out for yourself.

I am not sure how innocent those seminary students might actually be, and neither are you. I imagine the shooter chose the seminary because he realized that it would serve to indicate to the Israel that they are not free to kill Palestinians without reprisal.

And I imagine that it did.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: 10 Dead in Israel Seminary Massacre
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2008, 04:53:27 PM »
Still missing the point you're trying to make, Xo, and how it relates to targeting and murdering innocent civilians.  Ready to clarify it, yet?

Now you have changed the topic.  The original topic is that you claimed that targeting men, women and children for murder is never justified by the means.

Close.......its never justified, until they take aim at you, with their own weapon.  When they're not involved, they're off limits, simple as that.  At that point, NOTHING justifies their being murdered.  Did I mention NOTHING?


No, I am not "ready to clarify" anything, because you insist on changing the topic. Figure it out for yourself.

Well, so much for Bt's call for improved debate.  Kinda makes it impossible when side A asks what, and side B says go fish


I am not sure how innocent those seminary students might actually be, and neither are you.

Until otherwise demonstrated, these were simply students, completely innocent of ANYTHING.  So, unless you're prepared to demonstrate otherwise, this was a senseless brutal murdering of innocent civilians, in this case, students....which of course will facilitate a continued RESPONSE from Israeli forces, with still more death.  So glad to see how much you support said series of events     >:(



"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: 10 Dead in Israel Seminary Massacre
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2008, 06:47:35 PM »
I don't actually support the rockets, the reprisals for the rockets, or the reprisals for the reprisals.
I do understand why Romanians felt obliged to string up Ceauceascu and his wife, who were clearly not innocent at all.

Politically, the seminar was probably chosen because the terrorists had a guy working there with an East Jerusalem ID that could come and go as he pleased. Perhaps this guy just snapped and was not a part of any movement. I suppose we will eventually discover that if the Israelis find this convenient or can't hide it, whatever.

This crap will go on and on and on until there is some sort of settlement, and it looks as though there is little chance of either party being willing to reach one, or even any way the US could force a settlement.It is just stupid violence, and a tragedy.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: 10 Dead in Israel Seminary Massacre
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2008, 06:55:49 PM »
I don't actually support the rockets, the reprisals for the rockets, or the reprisals for the reprisals.

Then let's see some condemnation for the attacks on the semimary, vs waffling rationalization responses implying how we really don't know how innocent these students were !!


I do understand why Romanians felt obliged to string up Ceauceascu and his wife, who were clearly not innocent at all.

Ummmm.........ok.  I'm glad we have that cleared up.        ::)


It is just stupid violence, and a tragedy.

Yes, it is.  I wonder why is it so hard for some on the left to reference that, when its done to innocent Isrealis??
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle