Author Topic: Diversity's Oppressions  (Read 35782 times)

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_JS

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Re: Diversity's Oppressions
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2006, 02:13:09 PM »
That isn't what it says at all.

First it makes the typical backlash attack on diversity:

Quote
That word has become a sacred mantra, endlessly repeated for years on end, without a speck of evidence being asked for or given to verify the wonderful benefits it is assumed to produce.

In other words, the author is suggesting that the "assumed benefits" do not exist and suggests with the intimations of conflict from other nations that diversity generally brings about violence and destruction. How can we know this? Look at his very next paragraph:

Quote
Worse yet, Iraq is only the latest in a long series of catastrophes growing out of diversity. These include "ethnic cleansing" in the Balkans, genocide in Rwanda and the Sudan, the million lives destroyed in intercommunal violence when India became independent in 1947 and the even larger number of Armenians slaughtered by Turks during World War I.

He's challenged the notion of diversity's "alleged benefits" with historical tales of complete woe. The Balkans are an example of diversity gone completely wrong. Rwanda is another example of horrible diversity as Hutu and Tutsi massacres took place. The Sudan, India, and the Armenian genocide.

The author gives us a counterweight to the benefits of diversity with the ugliness. Historical atrocities are listed. No he brings it home to America.

Quote
Despite much gushing about how we should "celebrate diversity," America's great achievement has not been in having diversity but in taming its dangers that have run amok in many other countries. Americans have by no means escaped diversity's oppressions and violence, but we have reined them in.

The author puts "celebrate diversity" in quotes because surely the idea is idiotic. Our achievment is not having diversity but "taming" the horrible dangers as described above. We've simply reined them in.

This has nothing to do with "rate of change" as suggested by Ami. The point is clear if taken into context. Diversity is a horrible concept and the United States has done a very good job of "taming" and "reining in" the violence associated with it. Clearly Mr Sowell missed the history class on the Civil War, and the Civil Rights movement.

Moreover, the author reduces his historical examples to a near sense of justification. As if the Armenian genocide couldn't be helped - diversity was to blame. Rwanda couldn't be helped, don't blame those who perpetrated the massacres - it was diversity's fault. Damn that diversity.

Notice that a much more famous example of genocide is missing from Sowell's list...why? Why doesn't Hitler get the free pass of diversity that the Turks, Rwandans, Bosnians, et al receive? Germany had a large population of Jews and Roma. Surely that was diversity's fault as well Mr Sowell?



 
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_JS

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Re: Diversity's Oppressions
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2006, 02:14:07 PM »
Quote
Very Little.  Least of all, it supposedly being some racist proclaimation that all minorities are the cause of the Iraqi war

No one here has said that.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
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   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

sirs

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Re: Diversity's Oppressions
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2006, 02:31:28 PM »
Quote
Very Little.  Least of all, it supposedly being some racist proclaimation that all minorities are the cause of the Iraqi war
No one here has said that.

We're blaming diversity for our problems in Iraq? ...Real nice blame game though.

You sure did seem to imply Sowell was saying such, with everything you took out of context
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Universe Prince

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Re: Diversity's Oppressions
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2006, 02:45:51 PM »
Sweet licorice jelly beans.... the propaganda just never stops.

Other wars have had lots of bloodshed and disaster before victory, so by golly we ought not give up on this war. Oh pooh yi. Pooh-frakkin'-yi. Oh yeah, this is just like World War II, and if we just hang in there, we will save humanity from a fate worse than death. It is as if world history started at the bombing of Pearl Harbor and so World War II and Vietnam are the only two wars anyone can think to compare to the current conflict in Iraq. [Must   resist   urge to find   banging head   against brick wall   more productive...]

And what the forlorn flim-flam is this complaining about diversity? Mr. Sowell says, "That word has become a sacred mantra, endlessly repeated for years on end, without a speck of evidence being asked for or given to verify the wonderful benefits it is assumed to produce." No evidence given? Is the man blind and deaf? Evidence? America. America is the evidence. This country is blessed by a wonderful diversity that has contributed greatly to America's strength and prosperity. A person, or at least an American, would have to be willfully blind to not see it.

But what does Mr. Sowell say? "Despite much gushing about how we should 'celebrate diversity,' America's great achievement has not been in having diversity but in taming its dangers that have run amok in many other countries. Americans have by no means escaped diversity's oppressions and violence, but we have reined them in." Diversity's oppressions? What does that even mean? What are the oppressions of diversity? Is it oppressive to have Jews and Christians and Pagans and atheists living in the same neighborhoods and cities? Is it oppressive to have Germans and Italians and Chinese and Indians living here? What in the name of Jim Thorpe is oppressive about diversity? And for the record, we should be ashamed of the extent to which we seek to rein in diversity. America is supposed to be the land of the free. Apparently Mr. Sowell thinks America is the land of the reined in.

Mr. Sowell then almost starts making sense when he starts talking about nation building. He even, gasp, recalls the end of World War I. But then he looses it again and starts trying to tie it all back to the supposed evils of diversity. Nation building is not wrong because someone might try to push diversity. Nation building is wrong because the government of the U.S. or of any other nation, has no business telling other countries what to do.

And then Mr. Sowell insists we must remain in Iraq because to do otherwise is to grant victory to the terrorists and because other nations might think twice about being our allies. Here is a clue: a whole heap of other nations are already thinking twice about being our allies.

The problem in Iraq is not diversity. The problem in Iraq is people not getting along with those who are different. This is a problem that needs more diversity, not less. But beyond that, America needs to stop believing we can make other people get along. Particularly people with centuries old divisions. We cannot make them hurry up and put aside their differences and sing some Arabic version of Kumbaya. We have got to start letting people live their own lives regardless of whether or not it fits the Western ideal of togetherness and love. And frankly, America needs to clean house here regarding the freedom of individuals before we start trying to tell other people how to get along. We are still afraid of Mexicans "flooding" across the border, think that institutionalizing racial divisions is the way to deal with racism, and want to deny homosexuals the ability to enter into a legal agreement and call it 'marriage'.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2006, 02:56:37 PM by Universe Prince »
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Re: Diversity's Oppressions
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2006, 02:52:18 PM »

the very source of america greatness is diversity
thee only reason this country grew as fast as it ever did is because it really is a melting pot.


Exactly. Well said, Kimba.
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Lanya

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Re: Diversity's Oppressions
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2006, 03:01:10 PM »
This is very hard to understand.

The author seems to be blaming the Iraqis for being a country that was created by  the British.

They really couldn't help being different ethnicities, religions, tribes, etc. 

(Is this what the author is driving at?  That those darn Iraqis are so hard to govern cause they aren't all the same?  Wow.  Get on the clue train, Sowell.)
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sirs

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Re: Diversity's Oppressions
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2006, 03:07:55 PM »
the very source of america greatness is diversity  thee only reason this country grew as fast as it ever did is because it really is a melting pot.
Exactly. Well said, Kimba.

And who exactly is argueing against that?  Sowell sure the hell isn't.  "Melting pot" implies a commonality of all other diveristies coming together to make American culture great.  It's folks from all parts of the globe, coming to America to make America great, to embrace that which makes America great.  It's not requiring them to admonish or ignore their own culture to be American. 

Do you, or Js, not understand the difference?   ???
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Re: Diversity's Oppressions
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2006, 03:25:27 PM »
Quote
And who exactly is argueing against that?  Sowell sure the hell isn't.  "Melting pot" implies a commonality of all other diveristies coming together to make American culture great.  It's folks from all parts of the globe, coming to America to make America great, to embrace that which makes America great.  It's not requiring them to admonish or ignore their own culture to be American.

I think you need to read the article again. Sowell is very much arguing that diversity is a source of very serious problems. He makes the argument that America did not benefit from diversity, but was able to "tame" and "rein in" these horrible aspects of it.

The one misunderstanding the author is you Sirs. This article is not by any means promoting a melting pot or American society as we know it today.

Again, I ask why he left the most famous genocide off his list of historical genocides. Was the Nazis genocide of the Jews and Roma not caused by diversity?

 
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   Fill my ears with silver
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Universe Prince

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Re: Diversity's Oppressions
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2006, 03:31:27 PM »

And who exactly is argueing against that?  Sowell sure the hell isn't.  "Melting pot" implies a commonality of all other diveristies coming together to make American culture great.  It's folks from all parts of the globe, coming to America to make America great, to embrace that which makes America great.  It's not requiring them to admonish or ignore their own culture to be American. 

Do you, or Js, not understand the difference?


Is this a joke? Are you being sarcastic?

If not, let's look at what Mr. Sowell said about diversity.


Quote
What is it that has made Iraq so hard to pacify, even after a swift and decisive military victory? In one word: diversity. That word has become a sacred mantra, endlessly repeated for years on end, without a speck of evidence being asked for or given to verify the wonderful benefits it is assumed to produce.

Worse yet, Iraq is only the latest in a long series of catastrophes growing out of diversity. These include "ethnic cleansing" in the Balkans, genocide in Rwanda and the Sudan, the million lives destroyed in intercommunal violence when India became independent in 1947 and the even larger number of Armenians slaughtered by Turks during World War I.

Despite much gushing about how we should "celebrate diversity," America's great achievement has not been in having diversity but in taming its dangers that have run amok in many other countries. Americans have by no means escaped diversity's oppressions and violence, but we have reined them in.

Not a thing there about how America has benefited from diversity. But there we do see Mr. Sowell saying directly and plainly that "America's great achievement has not been in having diversity but in taming its dangers". That is not an endorsement of diversity by any stretch of the imagination. Mr. Sowell is clearly arguing against diversity, not for it.

Do you not understand the difference?
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Lanya

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Re: Diversity's Oppressions
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2006, 03:32:05 PM »
A few people who come here do not "melt."  In fact they don't even come to room temperature, but they make huge contributions.   I am thinking of some immigrants who came, worked 2 jobs, had children, saw to it that they were better educated than the parents,  and yet...the parents could not read.  They couldn't speak very much English, if any.  They damn well contributed their labor, lifeblood and their progeny.  All the while they went to a church that spoke their language, they celebrated Christmas their own way, they named their children odd names, they didn't allow their children the liberties other kids got, they ate food prepared the way they were used to (no tuna noodle casserole there). 

We are not required to "melt" to be Americans.   Free Americans shouldn't have to meet someone's snotty and ridiculous standards to be thought of as American. 
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Universe Prince

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Re: Diversity's Oppressions
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2006, 03:37:49 PM »

We are not required to "melt" to be Americans.   Free Americans shouldn't have to meet someone's snotty and ridiculous standards to be thought of as American.


I could not agree more.
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sirs

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Re: Diversity's Oppressions
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2006, 05:01:18 PM »
We are not required to "melt" to be Americans.   Free Americans shouldn't have to meet someone's snotty and ridiculous standards to be thought of as American.
I could not agree more.

And one more time, who's "requiring" a melting?  Pointing out flaws is a far cry from mandating behavior.  Is there pending legislation I'm not aware of?
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Re: Diversity's Oppressions
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2006, 05:08:19 PM »
Sirs,

After having read it again, I hope, are you still suggesting that Sowell is not attacking diversity in America?

Also, you have yet to answer my question. Why did he leave the world's most famous genocide off of his historical set of examples? Would you have included it amongst them as an example of the horrible effects of diversity?
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Re: Diversity's Oppressions
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2006, 05:19:42 PM »
Along these lines, someone who certainly believed in "taming" diversity has passed on today:

Quote
Former South Africa president dies at 90
By CLARE NULLIS, Associated Press Writer

P.W. Botha, the apartheid-era president who led South Africa through its worst racial violence and deepest international isolation, died Tuesday, the South African Press Association reported. He was 90.

SAPA quoted security staff at his home on the southern Cape coast as saying that he died at 8 p.m. "Botha died at home, peacefully," Capt. Frikkie Lucas said.

Nicknamed the "Old Crocodile" for his feared temper and sometimes ruthless manner, Botha served as head of the white racist government from 1978 to 1989. Throughout his leadership he resisted mounting pressure to free South Africa's most famous political prisoner, Nelson Mandela. Mandela was released by Botha's successor, F.W. de Klerk in 1990.

Botha liked to depict himself as the first South African leader to pursue race reform, but he tenaciously defended the framework of apartheid, sharply restricting the activities of black political organizations and detaining more than 30,000 people.

Through a series of liberalizing moves, Botha sought support among the Asian and mixed-race communities by creating separate parliamentary chambers. He lifted restrictions on interracial sex and marriage. He met with Mandela during his last year as president.

But after each step forward, there was a backlash, resulting in the 1986 state of emergency declaration and the worst reprisals of more than four decades of apartheid.

Botha's intransigence on releasing Mandela led the anti-apartheid Johannesburg Daily, Business Day, to write: "The government is now the prisoner of its prisoner; it cannot escape his embrace."

Within a year after Botha stepped down, de Klerk released Mandela after 27 years in prison and put South Africa on the road to its first all-race elections in 1994, when Mandela became president.

In December 1997, Botha stubbornly resisted appearing before a panel investigating apartheid-era crimes. He risked criminal penalties by repeatedly defying subpoenas from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission to testify about the State Security Council that he headed.

The council was believed to have sanctioned the killing and torture of anti-apartheid activists, and the panel wanted to know what Botha's involvement was.

Born Jan. 12, 1916, the son of a farmer in the rural Orange Free State province, Botha never served in the military or graduated from college. He quit university in 1935 to become a National Party organizer.

During World War II, Botha joined the Ossewabrandwag (Ox Wagon Fire Guard), a group that was sympathetic to the Nazis and opposed South Africa's participation on the Allied side.

Botha won election to Parliament in 1948, the year the National Party came to power and began codifying apartheid legislation. He joined the Cabinet in 1961 and became defense minister in 1966.

As head of the white-minority government in 1978, Botha repeatedly stressed the paramount importance of national security. He charged that the anti-apartheid struggle was a "total onslaught" on South Africa instigated by communist forces.

During a series of gradual race reforms, he told white South Africans they must "adapt or die." A new constitution in 1983 gave Asians and mixed-race people a limited voice in government, but continued to exclude blacks.

The new law also drastically increased Botha's powers, changing his title from prime minister to president. He declared a national emergency in 1986 after widespread violence erupted in black areas, where anger focused on the new constitution.

State security forces brutally quelled the opposition, and one of his former lieutenants — police minister Adriaan Vlok — told the Truth Commission that Botha had personally congratulated Vlok for successfully bombing a building thought to harbor anti-apartheid activists and weapons.

But in documents submitted to the panel, Botha denied knowledge of the killings, torture and bombings.

Botha's reprisals against the black majority drew international economic sanctions against South Africa during the 1980s that contributed to apartheid's fall.

In July 1989, Mandela went from prison to Botha's official residence for a conversation, which increased speculation that Botha would free Mandela.

Mandela recalled going into the meeting thinking he was seeing "the very model of the old-fashioned, stiff-necked, stubborn Afrikaner who did not so much discuss matters with black leaders as dictate to them."

He found Botha holding out his hand and smiling broadly "and in fact, from that very first moment, he completely disarmed me," Mandela wrote in his autobiography.

Mandela said the only tense moment was when he asked Botha to release all political prisoners — including himself — unconditionally.

"Mr. Botha said that he was afraid he could not do that," Mandela wrote.

The meeting was one of Botha's last acts before he was ousted as National Party leader by de Klerk in September 1989.

Botha refused to attend a farewell banquet held in his honor by the party he had served for 54 years. After 1990, he quit the National Party.

Botha's foremost loyalties were to his fellow Afrikaners, yet his moves to extend limited political power to nonwhites prompted a mass defection of hard-line segregationists from the National Party in 1982.

Beeld, an Afrikaans-language daily that supported Botha for many years, said, "The last image that will linger ... is that of a blind Samson who with his last strength tried to overturn the pillars of his party on himself and his own companions."

I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Universe Prince

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Re: Diversity's Oppressions
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2006, 06:13:46 PM »

And one more time, who's "requiring" a melting?  Pointing out flaws is a far cry from mandating behavior.  Is there pending legislation I'm not aware of?


Aren't you expecting people to assimilate? Maybe you're not, but as I recall, that is one of the major objections to open borders and letting all those Mexicans "flood" into America. They're not learning the language, blah blah blah. Don't act like Lanya is responding to nothing. And let's not forget this started because you posted a column by Thomas Sowell arguing quite clearly that diversity is a danger to be reined in and tamed. And by the way, Lanya did not say anyone was requiring people to "melt". What Lanya said was that people are not so required and that they shouldn't be. If you agree, then just agree and stop all this blustering. If you think Sowell is right, and that diversity is a danger, and that there is no evidence of any benefits to diversity, then just say so and stop all this protestations of what supposedly no one is saying. Don't say what you don't mean. Say what you do mean, and let's get on with this.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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