The State of Englishness

[kimba1]

what i find incredibly amazing about non-violent protest
soo many people say it won`t work and when it does the leaders usually get killed.
for something that`s supposed to be ineffective it sure get`s people upset
even now people are trying to invalidate ghandi.
the concept of non-violence is still a upsetting thought.

[Plane]

You are talking about that 400 year old guy again?

I would like to meet him, even if he is a racist.

Learned behavior is no older than the learner , unless you beleive in race memory , which I don't.

Human beings are adaptable and teachable but none of us can learn anything over a period longer than we can personally survive , the majority of the US population has been born since 1970 and none of the US population is 400 years old.

I don't get your obsession with this 400 year old person. No one is arguing that anyone is 400 years old. Why do you keep talking about this? I do get that in some way it is supposed to be clever, but frankly it seems more to me like you're missing the point. Yes, learned behavior is no older than the learner, I get also that is your point. But the point about centuries of learned behavior is not about one guy. Centuries of taught racism does more than just make a single person a racist. It shapes a culture. So why do you keep harping on some 400 year old guy?

It makes the point that each of us is a new beginning , tradition may be multi generational , but no learning has more force than the people who have learnd it.

If there is a tradition of fifty thousand years age I can't have known of it longer than fourty nine years in any respect, a traditon of fifty years duration is equal to me if I learned it at the same time.

For the 400 years of tradition to count for more than recent developments of equal import requires a person of that age and it requires nothing less.

Therefore I reject the premise that an anchient tradition requires an equal length of time to complete its eradication or reversal , there is just no truth in the argument.



Of course I could be mistaken....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Year_Old_Man

[Plane]

what i find incredibly amazing about non-violent protest
soo many people say it won`t work and when it does the leaders usually get killed.
for something that`s supposed to be ineffective it sure get`s people upset
even now people are trying to invalidate ghandi.
the concept of non-violence is still a upsetting thought.

It isn't perfect , it can fail.
So can every other thing.

[Universe Prince]

For the 400 years of tradition to count for more than recent developments of equal import requires a person of that age and it requires nothing less.

Nonsense. Again, centuries of tradition shape a culture. As much as the idea that we can wipe out racism in a single generation might be appealing, it simply isn't true.

Therefore I reject the premise that an anchient tradition requires an equal length of time to complete its eradication or reversal , there is just no truth in the argument.

Maybe not an equal length of time, but that doesn't mean the amount of time is short or merely a single lifetime. You can reject the argument all you like, but talking about a 400 year old man does not counter the argument. Cultures do not change overnight. The outlawing of slavery hardly made ill treatment of black workers go away. As I said before, I get that in some way the 400 year old man is supposed to be clever, but you're missing the point. No learning has more force than the people who have learned it, sure sounds nice, but I don't see it born out in reality.

[BT]

Cultures do not change overnight.

No but they can easily change generation to generation.

Ponder this.

What cultural effect did the introduction of the birth control pill have on american society?

What cultural effect did air conditioning have on the political landscape of america?

[Universe Prince]

What cultural effect did the introduction of the birth control pill have on american society?

What cultural effect did air conditioning have on the political landscape of america?

I had a sharply sarcastic reply, but I'll try to control myself.

How about the introduction of mechanized farm equipment? Yes, cultures can change. When someone invents the racial equivalent of the air conditioner, we'll see quick change, no doubt. In the mean time, we still live in a culture that was, in part, shaped by racism and similar irrational prejudices. These prejudices are not gone from our culture, and the effects of the past prevalence of them are also not gone. Arguing that they will be not be slow to disappear because there are no 400 year old people is a nonsense argument. Yes, in ideal conditions perhaps these prejudices could vanish from our culture in a generation or two. But then again, in ideal conditions these prejudices would not have existed in the first place. In the meantime, distrust of the other is taught every damn day.

Not that long ago, a set of photos from some youth at our church was posted on a bulletin board (I think it might have been a list of graduates or something like that) and some people remarked at how wonderful the diversity of the group was. By diversity, they meant the range of skin colors. I had seen the photos and had to go look again, because quite honestly I had not noticed the diversity. Not because it wasn't there. It was. But I didn't pay attention to there being light-skinned and dark-skinned youth. Not as such. I just saw photos of people. Maybe someday that is what most people will see. (Yeah, I guess I just tooted my own horn. I'm modest enough to notice it, and still arrogant enough to say it anyway. Live with it.) In the meantime, most people still notice these differences because these differences are supposedly important. I'm not sure what sort of invention is going to change that.

[Plane]

For the 400 years of tradition to count for more than recent developments of equal import requires a person of that age and it requires nothing less.

Nonsense. Again, centuries of tradition shape a culture. As much as the idea that we can wipe out racism in a single generation might be appealing, it simply isn't true.

Therefore I reject the premise that an anchient tradition requires an equal length of time to complete its eradication or reversal , there is just no truth in the argument.

Maybe not an equal length of time, but that doesn't mean the amount of time is short or merely a single lifetime. You can reject the argument all you like, but talking about a 400 year old man does not counter the argument. Cultures do not change overnight. The outlawing of slavery hardly made ill treatment of black workers go away. As I said before, I get that in some way the 400 year old man is supposed to be clever, but you're missing the point. No learning has more force than the people who have learned it, sure sounds nice, but I don't see it born out in reality.

 I do not see these assertions borne out in reality.

Anchient customs can be fragile and difficult to preserve , when General McArther was in charge of Japan he realised that there were several crafts in danger of being forgotten . The "liveing treasure " program garuntees that a small number of masters of the traditional crafts receive a stipend and an oppurtunity to teach.

I wish I could have realisd sooner what a liveing treasure my father was , I could have learned flint knapping , the names and uses of many plants , how to break a horse , blacksmithing ,like a dozen things that I failed to learn when I might have, it makes me so sorry now.I did learn a few things probly half what I could have.

I don't disagree with My fathers attitudes twards race though , I don't need to change much in that tradition because he made that change himself before I was old enough to have formed a mature opinion. He also trained himself to speak very precicely which shows up in my accent , I seldom say "ain't " for example.

On a wider scale modern communication is evening out reagional diffrences in accent and opinion , there is little lore that is confined to a region anymore , if it is really interesting it will become a movie and travel the planet.

It is popular to paint people as unmoveing and unadaptable , but the evidence of history is very much to the contrary , preserveing a tradition takes work.

Now explain to me how a learning could possibly have more force than the people who have learned it , the people who beleive in it etc., perhaps it sounds nice, but that is a poor argument against it being true.

[Plane]

What cultural effect did the introduction of the birth control pill have on american society?

What cultural effect did air conditioning have on the political landscape of america?

I had a sharply sarcastic reply, but I'll try to control myself.

 When someone invents the racial equivalent of the air conditioner, we'll see quick change, no doubt. In the mean time, we still live in a culture that was, in part, shaped by racism and similar irrational prejudices.

That invention is the television , is MTV a cuttural impediment to change? I might even argue that the Radio began the culture conditioning process.

Is there a sub culture of young white guys listening to rap?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7-E1qTVJgE

Or more basicly just how old is Rock and Roll and what is its origin?
It isn't anchient in our culture so it can't be much of a cultureal shapeing influence.

The changes you think glacial have the potential of changeing like lightning , whether they change fast or slow depends on the choices made by individuals , society as a unit doesn't do thinking or make chioces , that happens on an individual basis .

[Universe Prince]

I do not see these assertions borne out in reality.

Then I respectfully suggest you're not paying attention.

Anchient customs can be fragile and difficult to preserve , when General McArther was in charge of Japan he realised that there were several crafts in danger of being forgotten . The "liveing treasure " program garuntees that a small number of masters of the traditional crafts receive a stipend and an oppurtunity to teach.

And these customs were in danger of vanishing because the day, the week, the month, the year before people quit caring about them? Or because there had been a gradual decline over a long period of time? Your example does not say.

It is popular to paint people as unmoveing and unadaptable , but the evidence of history is very much to the contrary , preserveing a tradition takes work.

Congratulations, you just took down a strawman. No one said anything about people being unmoving or unadaptable.

Now explain to me how a learning could possibly have more force than the people who have learned it , the people who beleive in it etc., perhaps it sounds nice, but that is a poor argument against it being true.

Gee, I don't know. I must be wrong. When the slaves were freed, I guess they never again had to worry about being oppressed or discriminated against. Good thing the Civil Rights movement got rid of all the discrimination. No? Well, I'm not sure what part of "centuries of tradition shape a culture" is difficult to understand or not patently obvious if one just looks around a bit. Well gee, how do you know people still paint their houses? I don't know. I'm sure it could be that the paint just gets there all by itself. Well golly, how do you know "a learning" can shape a culture or have more force than just the people who have learned it? Well, I guess I could be wrong, but then we live in just such a society.

Irrational prejudices have shaped Western culture since before anyone thought to call it Western culture. Even now people who claim to fight racism are so shaped by it, they don't see the damage their actions do. In some segments of the population, becoming educated and working hard to prosper in capitalistic endeavors is called derogatorily called acting "white". In some segments of the population, some folks who will claim some of their best friends are black will not voluntarily drive through predominately black neighborhoods. In some segments of the population, some people are certain that any large gathering of Hispanic/Latinos/people with light brown skin is full of people who are criminals. Yet if asked, none of these people will say they are racist in anyway. Indeed, they would probably deny it. They live in a culture that teaches them these attitudes. Not all prejudice is handed down parent to child. Much of it comes from the culture.

Yes, I am sure if everyone rose up tomorrow and threw off racism, the culture could be changed in a short time. But that would require come sort of consensus on what racism, and clearly we don't have that. In any case, the point about racism having been around for centuries is not that it cannot be unlearned or diminished. The point is merely that it is not going away any time soon. That anyone wants to argue against this makes no sense at all to me. That anyone would start talking about 400 year old people as if that were the only way racism could be around for a long time, well, that seems like complete nonsense. Clearly we don't have 400 year old people, and yet racism is still around and impacting the culture and many of the people who live in it. So the 400 year old man argument is about as substantial as an imaginary bowl of nothing.

perhaps it sounds nice, but that is a poor argument against it being true.

Physician, heal thyself.

[Universe Prince]

Is there a sub culture of young white guys listening to rap?

That's going to wipe out racism in a generation is it? I'm skeptical.

Or more basicly just how old is Rock and Roll and what is its origin?
It isn't anchient in our culture so it can't be much of a cultureal shapeing influence.

Oh no, more strawmen just died.

The changes you think glacial have the potential of changeing like lightning , whether they change fast or slow depends on the choices made by individuals , society as a unit doesn't do thinking or make chioces , that happens on an individual basis .

On an individual basis? Really? Wow. I never would have though of that by m... oh, wait, except that I did. Duh.

Parcheesi on a chess board, Plane, I'm not arguing that society as a unit does thinking or makes choices. Does anyone pay attention to anything I say around here? Or is there some sort of board policy that whatever I say is to be ignored and one just imagines total nonsense and then just assumes that must be my argument? What do most of my arguments about policy, politics and society usually center around? The individual. I've said here more times than I can recall or probably bother to count that society is a group of individuals. Why then, in the name of all things capitalism, would I argue that society as a unit does thinking or making choices? Oh wait, I wouldn't.

[BT]

Why do you think you are the exception and not the norm.

What percentage of people in your life are racists?

In mine, easily less than 5%, and i live in the deep south.

Why are we still considered a racist society, if the vast majority of people we come across don't fit that label?

[Universe Prince]

Why do you think you are the exception and not the norm.

Because that is what the evidence around me indicates.

What percentage of people in your life are racists?

I could not say. I hope a low percentage if any. Mind you, I'm not saying the people who saw diversity in the set of photos were racist. I was merely pointing out that they noticed the skin color difference where I did not. The point being that the differences are still considered important in our culture. If the differences were not still considered different in our culture, then the fact that an African-American has a serious shot at winning the Presidency of the U.S. would not be such a big deal. We would not see posts with subject lines like "Half of white women now have a negative perception of Obama". I'm not implying anyone here is a racist, but it is a big deal and we do see those subject lines.

In mine, easily less than 5%, and i live in the deep south.

Why are we still considered a racist society, if the vast majority of people we come across don't fit that label?

Almost no one cares what hair color we have, but an awful lot of people seem to care what color skin we have. We've even subdivided our culture into skin color based groups. There is "white culture", and there is "black culture". Some people in "white culture" make fun of "whites" who try to embrace "black culture". Some people in "black culture" are derogatory regarding "blacks" who do things considered "white". In my multiracial but mostly white church, we have actually gained a few non-pale skinned members because they claimed people in our church did not look at the non-pale skinned folks as if they were outsiders. Which means people in other churches were looking at them that way. Do we live in a racist society? Sure seems that way sometimes.

[Plane]

I do not see these assertions borne out in reality.

Then I respectfully suggest you're not paying attention.

[

To What?

I live in a world in which whole language familys are dieing of disuse , and one of the worlds greatest complaints against my people is "cultureal imperalism" in which our culture is overtakeing and chokeing out the results of ages of development .

How are negative traditions on your planet more durable than positive traditions on mine?

[Plane]

In some segments of the population, becoming educated and working hard to prosper in capitalistic endeavors is called derogatorily called acting "white".

How old is this cultureal feature?

I am old enough to remember when Black people would consciously emulate White ones, the revulsion that revereses this is within my lifetime , entirely.

[Plane]

Is there a sub culture of young white guys listening to rap?

That's going to wipe out racism in a generation is it? I'm skeptical.

Or more basicly just how old is Rock and Roll and what is its origin?
It isn't anchient in our culture so it can't be much of a cultureal shapeing influence.

Oh no, more strawmen just died.

The changes you think glacial have the potential of changeing like lightning , whether they change fast or slow depends on the choices made by individuals , society as a unit doesn't do thinking or make chioces , that happens on an individual basis .

On an individual basis? Really? Wow. I never would have though of that by m... oh, wait, except that I did. Duh.

Parcheesi on a chess board, Plane, I'm not arguing that society as a unit does thinking or makes choices. Does anyone pay attention to anything I say around here? Or is there some sort of board policy that whatever I say is to be ignored and one just imagines total nonsense and then just assumes that must be my argument? What do most of my arguments about policy, politics and society usually center around? The individual. I've said here more times than I can recall or probably bother to count that society is a group of individuals. Why then, in the name of all things capitalism, would I argue that society as a unit does thinking or making choices? Oh wait, I wouldn't.

Yes I remember you being on the other side of this idea when we were discussing Islamic attitudes  , but I am game for swapping sides once in a while if you are.

But I am not understanding your insistance that racism has power to preserve itself as if it had its own mind and force of will , what ever racism has in terms of thought or deed it has borrowed from its beleivers.

Each one of whom is an individual capable of learning , or refuseing to learn.

Cultural change does indeed include abrupt reversals , though the acendancy of Rock and Roll from its African origins to wide acceptance in our society seems to have taken two generations or three , for some people the change was overnight.

When I was young , lots of white people would listen to Otis Redding but very few were emulateing him, right now many thousands of young men are dressing gansta even if they are quite white. There is not enough racism left to prevent the admiration of Black artists even to such extremes .  I dress more like Jonny Cash myself but that is because baggy pants don't look good on me.