Author Topic: I guess the evidence is in.  (Read 39830 times)

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Mucho

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Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2006, 07:28:00 PM »
I doubt Haggards downfall will keep voters from the polls.

In fact it could do just the opposite. Perhaps motivate  them to vote for politicians who call for stronger laws against meth dealers and gay escort services.



Oh really? That is not one of the possibilities this mid-America newspaper sees.







   Posted on Fri, Nov. 03, 2006   



Haggard case fuels debate over hypocrisy

DAVID CRARY
Associated Press
With the Mark Foley scandal still troubling Republicans, one of the nation's top evangelical leaders is now accused of paying for gay sex. Heading into Tuesday's election, when voters in eight states will decide on gay marriage bans, liberals and some conservatives are saying the party that prides itself on family values has a hypocrisy problem.

Ted Haggard, a staunch foe of gay marriage and occasional participant in White House conference calls, resigned as president of the National Association of Evangelicals and head of his Colorado church following allegations he met monthly with a gay prostitute for three years. Haggard denies having sex with the man, but admits receiving a massage and buying methamphetamine.

Five weeks ago, Foley - a vocal advocate for exploited children - resigned from Congress because of sexually tinged messages to male pages. Rep. Don Sherwood, R-Pa., a married father of three, has been burdened by revelations about his five-year affair with a mistress who says he physically abused her.

"The attention focused on these cases will inescapably lead people to think about these people's hypocrisy," said Matt Foreman, executive director of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force. "They make a career out of defaming gay people and preaching family values, when it's clear that it's just a veneer."

Stephen Bennett, a conservative activist who describes himself as a former homosexual, also suggested the Haggard case would have political consequences.

"Will this affect the elections next Tuesday? ... You better believe it," he said in a statement from the Huntington, Conn., base of Stephen Bennett Ministries. "The more and more hypocrisy I see each day, the more I realize next Tuesday we are going to get exactly what we deserve."
Other conservatives disagreed - saying support for the gay-marriage bans and for GOP candidates would not be diminished. And John Green, a senior fellow at the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, said Haggard isn't close enough to President Bush to be an ally, merely a supporter.

"We have great sympathy and disappointment, and can even be demoralized when a leader falls into sin," said Wendy Wright, president of Concerned Women for America. "That doesn't mean we're going to vote against an amendment to protect marriage."

Republican pollster Whit Ayres acknowledged religious conservatives are discouraged about several issues this fall, but "are they so discouraged they're going to participate in any movement to have Howard Dean and Nancy Pelosi run the country? No."

The allegations against Haggard emerged only a few days before Coloradans vote on two ballot measures dealing with marriage and gay rights. One, backed by Haggard, specifies that marriage is only between a man and a woman; the other would provide many rights to same-sex couples through domestic partnerships.

Both the pro- and anti-ban campaigns in Colorado declined to comment on how the Haggard case might affect voting on the measures. A Colorado College political science professor, Bob Loevy, suggested there could be a burst of support for the marriage ban if voters felt the accusations against Haggard were timed to sway the referendums.

Referring to conservative voters in Colorado Springs, Haggard's hometown, Loevy said: "They don't get disenchanted easily."

Colorado Springs is the base of the influential Christian ministry Focus on the Family, which has campaigned vigorously against same-sex marriage. Its founder and chairman, James Dobson, said he was "heartsick" over the Haggard allegations.

"We will await the outcome of this story, but the possibility that an illicit relationship has occurred is alarming to us and to millions of others," Dobson said. "The situation has grave implications for the cause of Christ."

White House spokesman Tony Fratto said Haggard was on the weekly calls between Bush aides and evangelical leaders only "a couple" of times. The minister has visited the White House, but "there've been a lot of people who've come to the White House," Fratto said. He expressed confidence that evangelical voters can distinguish between an individual's problems and the GOP's agenda.

Indeed, the National Association of Evangelicals represents a political constituency that has been staunchly Republican in recent years. In 2004, according to exit polling, 78 percent of white born-again evangelical Christians voted for President Bush, and 72 percent voted for the GOP candidate for House.

An AP-AOL News poll in October showed a mild decline in evangelical support for the GOP, and 43 percent said they were dissatisfied with the Republican leadership in Congress. The poll found them no more or less likely to turn out on election day than voters generally.

David Kuo, a born-again Christian and former White House aide who wrote the book "Tempting Faith, An Inside Story of Political Seduction," said Haggard's situation is magnified by his and other evangelicals' involvement in Republican politics.

"It's religious hypocrisy with a political rocket booster," said Kuo, who thinks politics is corrupting Christianity. "It's tragedy enough if a pastor falls, but this is not about a pastor falling. This is about a politician falling, and the politician is bringing down Jesus with him."




http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/politics/elections/15923683.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp


BT

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Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2006, 09:46:09 PM »
Quote
"It's religious hypocrisy with a political rocket booster," said Kuo, who thinks politics is corrupting Christianity. "It's tragedy enough if a pastor falls, but this is not about a pastor falling. This is about a politician falling, and the politician is bringing down Jesus with him."

Kuo is spouting nonsense. What public office did Haggard run for and hold?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2006, 09:54:51 PM by BT »

Mucho

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Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2006, 01:32:16 AM »
Quote
"It's religious hypocrisy with a political rocket booster," said Kuo, who thinks politics is corrupting Christianity. "It's tragedy enough if a pastor falls, but this is not about a pastor falling. This is about a politician falling, and the politician is bringing down Jesus with him."

Kuo is spouting nonsense. What public office did Haggard run for and hold?


I dont know how to break thi to you, but you dont have to run for office to be a politician.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politician

Haggard was a politician in the worst sense. He dragged Jesus down with him.

Universe Prince

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Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2006, 03:55:45 AM »
Quote

"We will await the outcome of this story, but the possibility that an illicit relationship has occurred is alarming to us and to millions of others," Dobson said. "The situation has grave implications for the cause of Christ."


Quote

"It's religious hypocrisy with a political rocket booster," said Kuo, who thinks politics is corrupting Christianity. "It's tragedy enough if a pastor falls, but this is not about a pastor falling. This is about a politician falling, and the politician is bringing down Jesus with him."


I am of the opinion these people have no idea what they're talking about. Bringing Jesus down with him? A completely inane and ignorant notion. How can these people be leaders in the Christian community?
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Amianthus

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Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2006, 11:11:03 AM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politician

"A person who is active in party politics."

That would be pretty much everyone here. And anyone that has ever been to a political fund raiser.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Lanya

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Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2006, 02:07:12 AM »
I feel so bad for Haggard's wife.
  I have had pollsters call me on the subject of gay marriage. (We had a statewide referendum on it in 2004 that passed--it banned gay marriage here.)  "I'm all for it." "Oh! Why?"  "Because some poor woman won't have to find out her husband is gay, that's why." 
Planned Parenthood is America’s most trusted provider of reproductive health care.

Michael Tee

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Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2006, 12:10:04 PM »
I think this was the best part of the story - -

<<Haggard is a firm supporter of President George W. Bush, and is often credited with rallying evangelicals behind Bush during the 2004 election. Author Jeff Sharlet reports that Haggard "talks to... Bush or his advisers every Monday" and opines that "no pastor in America holds more sway over the political direction of evangelicalism.">>

This is gonna be a classic example of the multiplier effect working in reverse.  If one man (Haggard) influences millions of voters how to cast their votes, it is EXTREMELY unlikely that those millions who first voted under his influence are going to (a) lose all respect for him as a leader and yet (b) nevertheless, continue to vote as their fallen leader had instructed them.  It seems obvious to me that some will vote entirely opposite to what the boss had told them to vote, while others will stay at home and sulk.  In fact, due to the wondrous phenomenon of broad-brushing, some of the effect will be felt among the followers of other Evangelicals who so far have managed to keep their noses clean.

BT

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Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2006, 12:44:11 PM »
Quote
This is gonna be a classic example of the multiplier effect working in reverse.

You might be right. I remember when scandals happened in the 80's concerning evangelicals like Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Bakker the movement was weakened to the core. To this day they haven't recovered.

Lanya

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Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2006, 02:35:58 PM »
Poor Pastor Haggard was victimized by that awful meth dealing gay escort massager! 
So....vote Republican. Yay.   

Actually, I hope it will bring about a discussion about how spouses need to get tested for HIV.   
Planned Parenthood is America’s most trusted provider of reproductive health care.

Amianthus

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Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2006, 03:30:44 PM »
"Because some poor woman won't have to find out her husband is gay, that's why." 

If you think allowing gay marriage will eliminate this, you're living in a dream world.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Brassmask

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Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2006, 04:20:11 PM »
The evidence is in fully now.

He confessed to his "flock" this morning that he is into male/male monkey-bumping or something that the "flock" would consider as bad how they look at male/male monkey-bumping.

http://thinkprogress.org/2006/11/05/haggard-confesses-i-am-a-deciever-and-a-liar/

Haggard Confesses: ‘I Am a Deciever and a Liar’

From a statement read in right-wing evangelical leader Ted Haggard’s church this morning: “The fact is I am guilty of sexual immorality, and I take responsibility for the entire problem. I am a deceiver and a liar. There’s a part of my life that is so repulsive and dark that I have been warring with it all of my adult life.” Haggard previously denied having sex with a male prostitute.

Michael Tee

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Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2006, 05:04:53 PM »
<<Haggard Confesses: ‘I Am a Deciever and a Liar’>>

Hey, that's OK preacher.  You were just following in the footsteps of your "President."

sirs

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Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2006, 05:13:26 PM »
Hey, that's OK preacher.  You were just following in the footsteps of your "President."

Now, if they could only prove it vs repeat that lie, they might actually have something
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2006, 05:22:17 PM »
<<Now, if they could only prove it vs repeat that lie, they might actually have something>>

It's already been abundantly proven to the majority of the American people, sirs.  People have realized it's no use trying to prove it to the last die-hard Republicans and have given up trying.  It's becoming like an argument with flat-earthers.  Just ain't worth it.

sirs

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Re: I guess the evidence is in.
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2006, 05:34:39 PM »
<<Now, if they could only prove it vs repeat that lie, they might actually have something>>

It's already been abundantly proven to the majority of the American people, sirs

In your alternate reality, perhaps.  In this one we're able to torpedo each and every one of those "Bush lied us into war" diatribes.  Been doing it each and every time it's tried, which is why we're left to folks like you now avoiding such like the plague and simply claim It's already been abundantly proven to the majority of the American people, sirs. 

Declare victory & hit enter I believe is the term used for that tactic
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle