Author Topic: recreate68.com  (Read 2430 times)

0 Members and 5 Guests are viewing this topic.

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: recreate68.com
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2008, 03:15:34 PM »
I agree the draft and particularly its annual or semi-annual lotteries played a big part in the anti-War movement, just as the French Resistance got a huge shot in the arm from the Vichy Government's S.T.O. program (Service du Travail Obligatoire) drafting French youth for labour in bomb-wracked German factories.  Young people tend to resist dragnet programs which force them into life-threatening situations for no good purpose.  At some point in the 1970s the draft program was modified by assigning priority numbers at random to all the 366 possible birthdays of draft-age males.  Everyone knew from the number assigned to his birthday whether or not he was guaranteed a ticket to Nam or whether he had good reason not to fear, regardless of when he would turn 18.  This drastically reduced the number of self-interested protestors, because where previously everybody stood an equal chance of being drafted by lottery, now there was a huge cohort of draft-age males certain that their own numbers would never come up.

The Viet Nam war was objectionable for perfectly good moral reasons NOT related to self-preservation, though.  I think once students found their way into the anti-war movement, they would have tended to stay even after the draft was "reformed" and their own personal draft numbers posed no danger to them.  They could hardly drop out of the Movement at that point because it would be admitting to the cowardly motivation that led them to protest in the first place.

Bottom line is we don't know how many anti-War people signed up out of self-preservation and how many for reasons having nothing to do with self-preservation.  The war was a huge on-going atrocity, one that by Nuremburg standards would obviously have earned its perptrators a place on the gallows, and so I think it's overly simplistic to think that all protestors were motivated by self-preservation.  That is a view that's extremely insulting to the American people.

Amianthus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7574
  • Bring on the flames...
    • View Profile
    • Mario's Home Page
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: recreate68.com
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2008, 04:05:42 PM »
I agree the draft and particularly its annual or semi-annual lotteries played a big part in the anti-War movement, just as the French Resistance got a huge shot in the arm from the Vichy Government's S.T.O. program (Service du Travail Obligatoire) drafting French youth for labour in bomb-wracked German factories.  Young people tend to resist dragnet programs which force them into life-threatening situations for no good purpose.  At some point in the 1970s the draft program was modified by assigning priority numbers at random to all the 366 possible birthdays of draft-age males.  Everyone knew from the number assigned to his birthday whether or not he was guaranteed a ticket to Nam or whether he had good reason not to fear, regardless of when he would turn 18.  This drastically reduced the number of self-interested protestors, because where previously everybody stood an equal chance of being drafted by lottery, now there was a huge cohort of draft-age males certain that their own numbers would never come up.

Quote
THE VIETNAM LOTTERIES

A lottery drawing - the first since 1942 - was held on December 1, 1969, at Selective Service National Headquarters in Washington, D.C. This event determined the order of call for induction during calendar year 1970, that is, for registrants born between January 1, 1944, and December 31, 1950. Reinstitution of the lottery was a change from the "draft the oldest man first" method, which had been the determining method for deciding order of call.

There were 366 blue plastic capsules containing birth dates placed in a large glass container and drawn by hand to assign order-of-call numbers to all men within the 18-26 age range specified in Selective Service law.

With radio, film and TV coverage, the capsules were drawn from the container, opened, and the dates inside posted in order. The first capsule - drawn by Congressman Alexander Pirnie (R-NY) of the House Armed Services Committee - contained the date September 14, so all men born on September 14 in any year between 1944 and 1950 were assigned lottery number 1. The drawing continued until all days of the year had been paired with sequence numbers.
Selective Service System: History and Records
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: recreate68.com
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2008, 04:56:39 PM »
Ah, thanks, Ami.  Once the guy knew his number, he either knew (1) he was sure to be called up or (2) he'd be sure to be left alone or (3) he couldn't say for sure but he'd know if he had a reasonably good chance of getting away without being called.

The big difference was that before the lottery, everyone had to regard himself as potentially as likely as the next guy to be served.  Everybody felt equally threatened by the draft, which widened the pool of potential anti-war activists to the maximum.

Amianthus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7574
  • Bring on the flames...
    • View Profile
    • Mario's Home Page
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: recreate68.com
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2008, 04:59:33 PM »
The big difference was that before the lottery, everyone had to regard himself as potentially as likely as the next guy to be served.  Everybody felt equally threatened by the draft, which widened the pool of potential anti-war activists to the maximum.

Prior to the lottery it was "oldest man first". Says so, right there.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: recreate68.com
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2008, 05:09:08 PM »
Something's missing.  I distinctly remember at the time the "genius" of the new system was the reduction in the motivation for self-interested anti-war activism, due to large numbers of young men being able to feel secure that their particular asses would never be drafted, no matter what.  This security could not have pre-dated the change in method.

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16143
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: recreate68.com
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2008, 05:46:35 PM »
Most anti-war demonstrators were college students and because of that they had student deferments.

As long as you kept your grades up, sticking it to the man on the weekends was fine.


Xavier_Onassis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27916
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: recreate68.com
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2008, 06:45:53 PM »
It was not hard to beat the draft. I failed their physical in 1960, and when the asked me to take another in 1967, I was in Mexico, and didn't get the notice until long after the date. I told them I had failed their physical and after that I went on to grad school. If they had called me again, I would have left for Canada. I beat their stupid draft and I am proud of it. I have no reason to defend some twisted jerk's ideas of empire.

Others I knew registered as residents of places in Central America, and were never called.

All you had to do was ignore them or leave the country, or figure out how to fail their physical. There were lots of ways to do this.

There was no good reason for anyone to go to Vietnam and risk their life. There was every good reason to refuse. Eventually, they ran out of potential soldiers and had to "vietnamize" the war. 
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: recreate68.com
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2008, 08:10:23 PM »
That war remains to this day one of the greatest unavenged atrocities of the 20th Century.  Two million Vietnamese killed by Americans or their puppet forces, many in the most barbarous and inhumane ways possible.  That the criminal participants in this Asian Holocaust remain unpunished, that one can even run for President, is a moral and legal travesty that a corrupt MSM doesn't even dare to comment on.  There has to be some way that the American people can be brought to a realization that criminals as evil as any Nazi are walking free amongst them, that something has to be done about this before they all die in bed of old age.  Hopefully the same fascists and militarists that made Viet Nam happen will lead America into a disaster of such magnitude that their fitness to rule will finally be called into question and a sea-change of public opinion will make even war-crimes trials a matter of public debate.

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16143
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: recreate68.com
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2008, 11:52:57 PM »
That war remains to this day one of the greatest unavenged atrocities of the 20th Century.  Two million Vietnamese killed by Americans or their puppet forces, many in the most barbarous and inhumane ways possible.  That the criminal participants in this Asian Holocaust remain unpunished, that one can even run for President, is a moral and legal travesty that a corrupt MSM doesn't even dare to comment on.  There has to be some way that the American people can be brought to a realization that criminals as evil as any Nazi are walking free amongst them, that something has to be done about this before they all die in bed of old age.  Hopefully the same fascists and militarists that made Viet Nam happen will lead America into a disaster of such magnitude that their fitness to rule will finally be called into question and a sea-change of public opinion will make even war-crimes trials a matter of public debate.


Yer in a rut Mikey. Keep repeating yourself, dontchknow.


Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: recreate68.com
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2008, 02:25:31 AM »
<<Yer in a rut Mikey. Keep repeating yourself, dontchknow. >>

That was by way of supporting XO in his decision to stay out of the war. 

I appreciate the comment, though, BT.   I consider it justified.

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: recreate68.com
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2008, 06:25:32 AM »
Quote
"...a sea-change of public opinion will make even war-crimes trials a matter of public debate.
Quote


We can hold that debate , would you like to start the thread titled _The war Crime Trial Of John Fitzgerald Kennedy_.


Or if you would rather start sooner we could start with Truman?

Xavier_Onassis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27916
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: recreate68.com
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2008, 08:51:47 AM »
There won;t be any war crimes trials over the Vietnam war, so don't be silly.
They should try the Dulles Brothers for Crimes Most Foul and sentence them to death. Except they are already deceased. So that option is really impossible.

Trying Juniorbush and Cheney would be deserved and useful as a deterrent, but I don't think it will happen. Once they are out of office, then the important thing is to put the country on the proper course.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: recreate68.com
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2008, 09:37:02 PM »
There won;t be any war crimes trials over the Vietnam war, so don't be silly.
They should try the Dulles Brothers for Crimes Most Foul and sentence them to death. Except they are already deceased. So that option is really impossible.

Trying Juniorbush and Cheney would be deserved and useful as a deterrent, but I don't think it will happen. Once they are out of office, then the important thing is to put the country on the proper course.




I shall mark you as "against: war crime trial"

Tho you seem marginal .

Xavier_Onassis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27916
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: recreate68.com
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2008, 10:00:35 PM »
Juniorbush and Cheney are vile incompetent thugs. They deserve a trial and a really long sentence, perhaps in Guantanamo.

But the country deserves leadership for the future, so perhaps we could dispense with their trial for a year or three. LIke the Chileans did with Pinochet, the Argentines did with Videla, and the Peruvians, Fujimori.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

_JS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3500
  • Salaires legers. Chars lourds.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: recreate68.com
« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2008, 12:11:11 AM »
Who thinks of 68 as a success?

I do, well, a partial success anyway. But I'm talking about Mai 1968 in France - not what took place in the United States or the United kingdom (though there were some valiant struggles in the midst of selfish egocentrism).

I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.