Author Topic: The Summer of Love  (Read 36419 times)

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Michael Tee

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Re: The Summer of Love
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2008, 11:51:33 PM »
<<And what would a class consciousness and war between the classes do to improve on that?>>

It would mean the election of legislators who put a higher priority on raising the minimum wage than they do on bringing "democracy" to Iraq.   Who are more concerned with early child development in working class families than they are with spending billions on Israeli security.  Who are more concerned with issues like debt relief than with issues of protecting lenders' rights.  Etc.

<<Class consciousness is gauche for the rich to display . . . >>

Of course, which is why they work so hard to dispel the ideas that class and the class war exist in America.

<< . . .  and foolish for the poor to display >>

Really?  Foolish for the poor to look for legislators more concerned with the minimum wage than with "democracy" for the Iraqis?


and irrelivant for the most of us who are neither.

<<Class consciousness is a very bad idea for anyone, the rich would be better off being constructive , and many are  . . . >>

Well, the fact is, the rich are anything but foolish, they know immediately who is on their side and who is not, and they dispense their campaign funding accordingly.  There is nothing at all foolish about it.

<< the poor are better off lifting themselves as often they do.>>

And the first step for many of them in lifting themselves is to get affordable day care, raise the minimum wage and get some health insurance.  Things "their" government has consistently ignored, while pursuing such worthwhile and multi-billion dollar efforts as bringing "democracy" to Iraq, ensuring the security of Israel and trying to drum up support for a new war against Iran.  A class-conscious working class will elect representatives with THEIR interests at heart, much to their immediate benefit.  Which of course is the very reason that the rich and the special interests expend so much energy in denying the very existence of the class war.

<<Immagrants arrive with no real advantages that Americans of every "class" can't have but someone that learned to leap with a pack on will leap high indeed when the pack is lightened. >>

You're missing the point that the immigrant already made his leap when he crossed the border.  Proving that he's got the right stuff and probably proving it again once he settles in.

<<Would an American be wise to pretend that the government wouldn't feed him?>>

No, I think he'd be wise to vote for somebody who says - - AND MEANS IT - - that he or she will fight for the right to universal health care, will fight for higher minimum wage NOW, will fight for early child development NOW (when your kids are one and two, not when they're twelve or fifteen) and will provide decent housing now.  That is what I'D vote for if I were poor and class-conscious.

<<By the way , how many classes are there? >>

I can divide it up into the upper class (that doesn't need to work for a living, can live quite well off their investments, what would have been called the rentier class in France,) the bourgeoisie or middle class, which earns a decent living through business or the liberal professions like law or medicine, architecture or engineering, academia etc., can take regular vacations, educate their children, have adequate or superior medical and dental care and good housing and transportation.  Then there is the proletariat, the agricultural, industrial or commercial working class ("workers and peasants") who can range from the lowest of the low, "stoop labour," up to highly-paid blue-collar workers, technicians, teachers, etc. who are blending into the lower ranges of the bourgeoisie.  There is also the lumpenproletariat, which would consist of the chronically unemployed and the criminal and petty-criminal underworld, the so-called "useless eaters."

That's my own personal map of the class war.  I'm sure there are other versions, typically the middle class being subdivided into "upper" and "lower" bourgeoisie, or the so-called "working class" taking in all of the workers, the lumpenproles and the criminal underworld.

A more simplistic division is into borrowers and lenders.  Borrowers want low interest rates, easy debt relief and whether they realize it or not will benefit more from inflation than the lenders will.  Lenders want tight money (high interest rates,) no debt relief ever and zero inflation - - if they lend 2008 dollars, they want to be repaid in 2008 dollars, not in the lower-value, inflated, newly-printed-on-demand 2010 dollars, if the 2010 dollars have less purchasing power than the 2008 dollars did.

<<Where is the convention for mine , my invitation got lost.>>

I'd figure you for working class.  Skilled worker.  Just a guess of course.

BT

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Re: The Summer of Love
« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2008, 11:53:11 PM »
The bourgeoisie is the middle class.

The petite bourgeoisie is the lower middle class, shopkeepers artisans and the like.

A bass boat is a status symbol in the southland. The poor can't afford them.

The lower and middle class can if they pay their bills on time.

These folks don't have time for your revolution. They are too busy working or enjoying the fruits of their labor, thank you very much.


_JS

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Re: The Summer of Love
« Reply #32 on: July 11, 2008, 11:59:37 PM »
The bourgeoisie is the middle class.

The petite bourgeoisie is the lower middle class, shopkeepers artisans and the like.

A bass boat is a status symbol in the southland. The poor can't afford them.

The lower and middle class can if they pay their bills on time.

These folks don't have time for your revolution. They are too busy working or enjoying the fruits of their labor, thank you very much.

Absolutely. They have no concept of class consciousness. I would not expect them to. Nor is it my revolution. It is theirs. It is a matter of the perfect storm of time, events, people, and action.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: The Summer of Love
« Reply #33 on: July 12, 2008, 12:00:06 AM »
I do not think bass boats are a determinant  of social class, not even in the South. It is true that dirt-poor people rarely have these, but there are many thousands of people who could afford a bass boat who would consider such a thing a total waste of time.

It might be a symbol of nouveau-riche redneckery in a few places, but not most places.


"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

_JS

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Re: The Summer of Love
« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2008, 12:03:21 AM »
I do not think bass boats are a determinant  of social class, not even in the South. It is true that dirt-poor people rarely have these, but there are many thousands of people who could afford a bass boat who would consider such a thing a total waste of time.

It might be a symbol of nouveau-riche redneckery in a few places, but not most places.

Clearly you haven't spent much time in Northern Georgia or Alabama ;)
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: The Summer of Love
« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2008, 12:08:26 AM »
Thousands of people consider cheeseburgers to be the perfect food. Thousands consider bottled water essential to their survival.
This does not mean that cheeseburgers are a wise dietary choice, nor does it mean that tap water is not eminently drinkable.

The class struggle is like the above. The wealthy are pillaging the middle classes and the poor more aggressively than ever, with credit card late fees, telephone texting addons, designer food and clothing cravings via mass advertising and a hundred other ways. The poor fools are unaware that they are warred upon, but that does not mean that there is no class war and they are losing horribly. Pickpocketry and embezzlement are a lot easier to perpetrate than muggings, but that does not mean they are less successful.

Maybe someday, the sheeple will catch on, but bazilions of dollars are spent by the oligarchy to assure that this will not happen.




"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Michael Tee

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Re: The Summer of Love
« Reply #36 on: July 12, 2008, 12:08:49 AM »
<<These folks don't have time for your revolution. They are too busy working or enjoying the fruits of their labor, thank you very much.>>

I never said anything about a Revolution.  I agree that at present they are content with the crumbs that the ruling class lets them have.  It's a bread and circuses thing.  A bass boat (whatever the fuck that is,) a TV and whatever else satisfies their pea-sized brains, don't throw them out in the street if they miss the odd payment and keep the price of beer down.   So what if 47 meeyun of 'em don't have and can't afford health insurance, that's only for sick folks and they ain't sick none.  God will provide.

A little class consciousness would go a long way for them.  Affordable health insurance, higher wages (inevitably following a hike in the minimum wage,) green-earth policies that'll keep the bass stocked and the toxicity down in the polluted waterways that they race their bass boats up and down on, more tightly regulated pension funds so they don't get regularly ripped off by the likes of Bush's buddy Kenny-Boy Lay, or John Insane's buddy Charles Keating.  Yeah, they could definitely benefit from a little class consciousness, but if they are too fucking dumb to do so, that is definitely their problem.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: The Summer of Love
« Reply #37 on: July 12, 2008, 12:16:13 AM »
Yeah, they could definitely benefit from a little class consciousness, but if they are too fucking dumb to do so, that is definitely their problem.

==============
See? Now that's an elitist attitude.

How dare you presume to be smarter than some good ol'boy who spends $40 grand to catch fish he could eat every day of his life for a tenth as much.

If'n you ain't got money for that bass boat, yew can still get season NASCAR tickets.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: The Summer of Love
« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2008, 12:18:01 AM »
"... the meaning of class. It is not defined by what one's income level is. One's class is determined by his or her relationship with the means of production."

Which of course is not related at all to income level.


What purportion of Americans have no investment in stock or Mutual funds?

A battle with the Capitol owning class would be mostly with the pentions and funds that buy millions of shares on behalf of millions of participants.

So what makes Class consciousness a good idea? Divideing us into smaller scisms doesnt seem like a winner for anyone.

Edwards shot himself down with his "two Americas" ,pitting the rich aganst the poor works better in lands where these actually do hate each other. Lots of politicians have ridden this horse into power , but do we need a Robspierre, a Napolion or a Hitler?

BTW Edwards tried to split the rich and poor without makeing it clear which team he was actually on , this hurt too.

On the contrary, Hitler would have loved your view. Fascism taught that class division was a very harmful thing for the state. It could be healed by nationalism. Put up enough symbolism, wave the flag, and especially infuse the nation with a racial scapegoat (be they Jews, Roma, Blacks, or Mexicans) and you'd often see class divisions melt away.

If you read Lukacs you'd realize that class consciousness has to come before any consolidation of power and redistribution of capital. I don't see that taking place through a limp democracy already bought and paid for.

It is not a case of "smaller and smaller divisions" as you keep protesting. There are really only two: the bourgeoisie and the proletariat. The fight is inevitable, though you keep harping as though there is a choice. The question will be whether the revolution is bloody, or whether the bourgeoisie understands the ramifications and simply hands over the capital to the rightful owners.

Ok ,Hitler divided by nationality and Robspierre divided by class ,six of one ,half a dozen of another.Robspierre was not nicer than Hitler even in minute examination of how very diffrent he was .

The rightfull owner of an item of capitol is the person who brought it into being and hasn't sold it yet , or the guy that bought it.

Takeing capitol from the people who produce capitol without payment cripples the production of more capitol , some might see the pie being more equtibly divided , but it is necessacerily a smaller pie.


BT

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Re: The Summer of Love
« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2008, 12:19:58 AM »
Quote
Clearly you haven't spent much time in Northern Georgia or Alabama Wink

Exactly. No sense having a bass boat unless you have a lake house to dock it at.

Gerald Moore is one such fellow.

High school graduate. Started working construction. Learned framing. Learned it well. Hooked up with a big builder in a booming county. Formed his own crew. Got married. Sent his wife to school. She handles the books, payroll, banking, purchases and tax issues. Started a second crew. Best friend from high school runs that crew. Took his profits and built spec homes. Did well with that too. His son runs his original crew now. Gerald is semi retired, fishing and BBQ'ing on Lake Sinclair. He's 53 now. Salt of the earth kinda guy. Deals done with a handshake.


Plane

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Re: The Summer of Love
« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2008, 12:22:05 AM »
Yeah, they could definitely benefit from a little class consciousness, but if they are too fucking dumb to do so, that is definitely their problem.

==============
See? Now that's an elitist attitude.

How dare you presume to be smarter than some good ol'boy who spends $40 grand to catch fish he could eat every day of his life for a tenth as much.

If'n you ain't got money for that bass boat, yew can still get season NASCAR tickets.


Yep, I do detect a bit of elitist attitude.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: The Summer of Love
« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2008, 12:28:42 AM »
There is a difference between capital and capitol. CapitOl, capitAl
Des Moines is the capitol of Iowa. The Capitol building of California is in Sacramento.

Capital is money.

===================================
Takeing capitol from the people who produce capitol without payment cripples the production of more capitol , some might see the pie being more equtibly divided , but it is necessacerily a smaller pie.

The wealthy receive more benefits from the system, which does not reward people fairly at all.
Why should a rapster or a guy who plays with balls earn a hundred times more than an excellent teacher?

The way to reallocate these benefits is through taxation.
In Denmark, everyone gets as much free education as they wish.
Everyone has a decent place to live.
Everyone has good health care.

The average American has to pay a lot for these, and probably cannot afford all three at all.

So what if the Dane pays half his income in taxes? He has everything he needs, and need not worry about his old age or even how to his six weeks of annual vacation.

The American pays much MORE for health care, housing and education, and most of what he gets are inferior to what the Dane gets.

Danes are a lot happier too. Happier than anyone else on the planet.

The beer is better, and so is the bread.


"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

_JS

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Re: The Summer of Love
« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2008, 12:29:10 AM »
Plane, I think the fact that you and Hitler agree on class division is rather significant, even if you do not. You brought Herr Adolf into this conversation, not me. Robespierre did not divide by class at all. Robespierre was an extremely intelligent orator who helped form the Committee on Public Safety during the French Revolution. He was an avid anti-Monarchist and republican. He believed in finding all forms of pro-monarchy views and destroying them. It had nothing to do with class. It was bloody and destructive, but it was not class driven at all. Your view is ahistorical.

The rightful owners of the means of production are the workers. They simply need the class consciousness to realize the power that they have. If they do not work, all of the power that the bourgeoisie possess is gone in an instant. They simply need to remove the cultural and societal burdens that keep them blinded and pushed down. The workers are far from powerless.

I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Plane

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Re: The Summer of Love
« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2008, 12:32:16 AM »
Quote
Clearly you haven't spent much time in Northern Georgia or Alabama Wink

Exactly. No sense having a bass boat unless you have a lake house to dock it at.

Gerald Moore is one such fellow.

High school graduate. Started working construction. Learned framing. Learned it well. Hooked up with a big builder in a booming county. Formed his own crew. Got married. Sent his wife to school. She handles the books, payroll, banking, purchases and tax issues. Started a second crew. Best friend from high school runs that crew. Took his profits and built spec homes. Did well with that too. His son runs his original crew now. Gerald is semi retired, fishing and BBQ'ing on Lake Sinclair. He's 53 now. Salt of the earth kinda guy. Deals done with a handshake.



One of the millionaires I know started out as a Bulldozer operator, same story , good job plus frugality equals prosperity.

I also know a guy that owns a gitaur more expensive than his house , I even know a guy that paid more for his bass boat than he did for his house. Should shuch choices be against the rules? These guys are all pleased with their choices.

BT

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Re: The Summer of Love
« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2008, 12:34:39 AM »
Quote
The rightful owners of the means of production are the workers.

And do they not lease their labor for an agreed upon wage?