Author Topic: Out Damn Blot  (Read 26893 times)

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_JS

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Re: Out Damn Blot
« Reply #105 on: August 22, 2008, 03:45:47 PM »
It's rhetorical Js.  Obviously there are no stats on butt sitting.  Are you denying there aren't thousands upon thousands of poor who's only strive is to live day to day, largely off Government subsidies and handouts??  No one is denying there are those who work hard, but don't seem to get anywhere, but I'm guessing many of those that stay in overt poverty levels, have little else to "blame" than themselves and/or their circumstances.

It is not "rhetorical" it is a purposefully false anecdote presented as evidence. I'm denying it until you present actual proof.

Quote
It has EVERYTHING to do with reality, and very little to do with some interpretation in a book.  It was her rant, it was her decrying how terrible it was for big oil to be making such big profits.  it was her decrying the need for a wind fall profits tax, that would do absolutely zip in decreasing the price of oil, or increasing its supply.  THAT's the current reality I'm referencing.

One person on a call-in show is not a sample-size of any worth. Again, an anecdote of no value. But your anti-intellectualism is duly noted.

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And if you get enough people (a majority) all emotionally worked up about how unfair it is that they have so much less than "the rich", presto, democracy at work

LOLOL - you preaching to me about "emotion" - that's a good one.

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OR......not interested, especially since I have so little down time, compared to you.  I'll go with option 3.  As i said, I have no need to read about the perfect intentions of marx, as i have to live the current reality of it's acute mutations

Too busy to read a book? Sorry Sirs, I'm not buying it. It is willful ignorance.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

_JS

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Re: Out Damn Blot
« Reply #106 on: August 22, 2008, 03:50:25 PM »
<<Yes , to become a Senator or President ithelps a lot to have cash , but it helps even more to have a common touch , anyone who cannot cross a class barrier has no hope of high office in America.>>

I see, so America has no classes, just class barriers.  Thanks.

You are almost there ...

Now point to a class barrier and I bet I will be able to find an example of a hole in that barrier.

It isn't easy to earn a lot of money , it isn't easy to steal a lot and hide that it is stolen , but to get elected as an eleteist is even harder , the barriers against gaining political power work in the reverse than you seem to think they would.

Of course America has class distinctions.

Do you own the means to production?
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

BT

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Re: Out Damn Blot
« Reply #107 on: August 22, 2008, 04:02:55 PM »
Quote
Do you own the means to production?

What exactly does that mean?

Does it mean i own the hardwood i want to use to shape into a table?

yes.

Does it mean i own the tools to do the shaping ?

yes

Does it mean i own the labor that manipulates the tools to shape the table?

Yes

So what do you really mean by that question?




_JS

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Re: Out Damn Blot
« Reply #108 on: August 22, 2008, 04:12:33 PM »
Quote
Do you own the means to production?

What exactly does that mean?

Does it mean i own the hardwood i want to use to shape into a table?

yes.

Does it mean i own the tools to do the shaping ?

yes

Does it mean i own the labor that manipulates the tools to shape the table?

Yes

So what do you really mean by that question?

Do you own the the business where you work?
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

sirs

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Re: Out Damn Blot
« Reply #109 on: August 22, 2008, 04:13:11 PM »
It's rhetorical Js.  Obviously there are no stats on butt sitting.  Are you denying there aren't thousands upon thousands of poor who's only strive is to live day to day, largely off Government subsidies and handouts??  No one is denying there are those who work hard, but don't seem to get anywhere, but I'm guessing many of those that stay in overt poverty levels, have little else to "blame" than themselves and/or their circumstances.

It is not "rhetorical" it is a purposefully false anecdote presented as evidence. I'm denying it until you present actual proof.

Proof there are those who sit and just take in government paycheck, after government paycheck, doing virtually nothing to get out of the cycle??  Proof there would be in my actually witnessing it.  My mother having to raise us 3 kids on her own, was on Government food stamps, and the like.  We knew a multitude of similar folks.  I witnessed both their lack of effort, and confessions of "why mess up up such a good thing?".  There's nothing "false" about it, especially if your posotion is everyone receiving government assistance has no choice, and are literally being kept in such a predicament, by........I can only imagine "the rich", right?

Oh, and BTW, my Mom worked her and our family out of it.  How the hell did she manage that, I can only wonder      :-\


Quote
It has EVERYTHING to do with reality, and very little to do with some interpretation in a book.  It was her rant, it was her decrying how terrible it was for big oil to be making such big profits.  it was her decrying the need for a wind fall profits tax, that would do absolutely zip in decreasing the price of oil, or increasing its supply.  THAT's the current reality I'm referencing.

One person on a call-in show is not a sample-size of any worth. Again, an anecdote of no value. But your anti-intellectualism is duly noted.

I love it......overt ignorance in the face of the obvious, a window into the typical class warfare rhetoric you get from the hard core left.  Throw in a little personal insult to boot, perfect.


Quote
And if you get enough people (a majority) all emotionally worked up about how unfair it is that they have so much less than "the rich", presto, democracy at work

LOLOL - you preaching to me about "emotion" - that's a good one.

Especially when you can't provide any examples of my getting emotional, thru-out this entire thread.  Or apparently, in some twisted rationalization, my referencing the emotional rants of the left, is be design being emotional?


Quote
OR......not interested, especially since I have so little down time, compared to you.  I'll go with option 3.  As i said, I have no need to read about the perfect intentions of marx, as I have to live the current reality of it's acute mutations

Too busy to read a book? Sorry Sirs, I'm not buying it. It is willful ignorance.

I see, now you can read minds.  It's not that I have no interest, it's because Js has devined I'm some ignorant coward.  You should take that act on the road, Js   
« Last Edit: August 22, 2008, 04:45:05 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Out Damn Blot
« Reply #110 on: August 22, 2008, 04:21:15 PM »
Quote
Do you own the the business where you work?

yes

Although woodworking is not my business, I have designed manufactured and sold pieces of furniture.


Plane

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Re: Out Damn Blot
« Reply #111 on: August 22, 2008, 05:14:05 PM »
<<Yes , to become a Senator or President ithelps a lot to have cash , but it helps even more to have a common touch , anyone who cannot cross a class barrier has no hope of high office in America.>>

I see, so America has no classes, just class barriers.  Thanks.

You are almost there ...

Now point to a class barrier and I bet I will be able to find an example of a hole in that barrier.

It isn't easy to earn a lot of money , it isn't easy to steal a lot and hide that it is stolen , but to get elected as an eleteist is even harder , the barriers against gaining political power work in the reverse than you seem to think they would.

Of course America has class distinctions.

Do you own the means to production?


Yes , doesn't everyone?

Plane

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Re: Out Damn Blot
« Reply #112 on: August 22, 2008, 05:20:12 PM »
Quote
Do you own the means to production?

What exactly does that mean?

Does it mean i own the hardwood i want to use to shape into a table?

yes.

Does it mean i own the tools to do the shaping ?

yes

Does it mean i own the labor that manipulates the tools to shape the table?

Yes

So what do you really mean by that question?

Do you own the the business where you work?

Yes , I am a federal civil servant .



Most of the means for the production I do are attatched to the ends of my arms , I do not own the hand tools I use , but some of my co-workers do , those guys are contractors for the same work I do as a civil servant , they buy their tool box and generally have higher pay but lower benefits .


_JS

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Re: Out Damn Blot
« Reply #113 on: August 22, 2008, 05:40:38 PM »
Proof there are those who sit and just take in government paycheck, after government paycheck, doing virtually nothing to get out of the cycle??  Proof there would be in my actually witnessing it.  My mother having to raise us 3 kids on her own, was on Government food stamps, and the like.  We knew a multitude of similar folks.  I witnessed both their lack of effort, and confessions of "why mess up up such a good thing?".  There's nothing "false" about it, especially if your posotion is everyone receiving government assistance has no choice, and are literally being kept in such a predicament, by........I can only imagine "the rich", right?

Oh, and BTW, my Mom worked her and our family out of it.  How the hell did she manage that, I can only wonder      :-\

1. You're being emotional again.
2. You've provided no proof/evidence...again.
3. Yet another anecdote. We can compare poverty stories any day of the week. Still, it is just anecdotal evidence. You've yet to provide anything substantive to back up your statements.

Quote
I love it......overt ignorance in the face of the obvious, a window into the typical class warfare rhetoric you get from the hard core left.  Throw in a little personal insult to boot, perfect.

There was absolutely no personal insult. There is no ignorance. You offered one individual who called into a radio show. Shall I start using the same as evidence of the right-wing? I think not. Again...you provide no evidence.

Quote
Especially when you can't provide any examples of my getting emotional, thru-out this entire thread.  Or apparently, in some twisted rationalization, my referencing the emotional rants of the left, is be design being emotional?

The previous two quotes are good examples.

Quote
I see, now you can read minds.  It's not that I have no interest, it's because Js has devined I'm some ignorant coward.  You should take that act on the road, Js

And more emotion. I've not "divined" anything. I used your derogatory comment on books and your statements about having "no time" as evidence.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

_JS

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Re: Out Damn Blot
« Reply #114 on: August 22, 2008, 05:41:46 PM »
Quote
Do you own the the business where you work?

yes

Although woodworking is not my business, I have designed manufactured and sold pieces of furniture.

Actually, Marx spoke highly of the cottage industries of Britain, which is exactly what you're describing.

That isn't the same as urban industrialization. Of course, you know that.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Plane

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Re: Out Damn Blot
« Reply #115 on: August 22, 2008, 05:46:15 PM »
Of course America has class distinctions.



Oh?

Who are the Lairds or Bramins of ours?

sirs

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Re: Out Damn Blot
« Reply #116 on: August 22, 2008, 05:50:24 PM »
I still get a kick out of Js referencing non-existant emotion, as emotion on my part.  Whatever floats his boat, i guess
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Out Damn Blot
« Reply #117 on: August 22, 2008, 07:13:13 PM »
Quote
Actually, Marx spoke highly of the cottage industries of Britain, which is exactly what you're describing.

That isn't the same as urban industrialization. Of course, you know that.

You asked if i owned the means of production. Apparently in my case i do, because you came back with a yeah but. . .

Fact is lots of working stiffs in the blue collar trades own the means of production, Plane gave an example, i gave an example, pending further clarification  of what you actually mean by that.


Plane

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Re: Out Damn Blot
« Reply #118 on: August 22, 2008, 11:51:00 PM »
Quote
Actually, Marx spoke highly of the cottage industries of Britain, which is exactly what you're describing.

That isn't the same as urban industrialization. Of course, you know that.

You asked if i owned the means of production. Apparently in my case i do, because you came back with a yeah but. . .

Fact is lots of working stiffs in the blue collar trades own the means of production, Plane gave an example, i gave an example, pending further clarification  of what you actually mean by that.



Most Plumbers , most Auto mechanics , most Aircraft mechanics , lots of carpenters ,... there isn't a point in makeing a complete listing is there?

_JS

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Re: Out Damn Blot
« Reply #119 on: August 26, 2008, 02:49:39 PM »
Quote
Actually, Marx spoke highly of the cottage industries of Britain, which is exactly what you're describing.

That isn't the same as urban industrialization. Of course, you know that.

You asked if i owned the means of production. Apparently in my case i do, because you came back with a yeah but. . .

Fact is lots of working stiffs in the blue collar trades own the means of production, Plane gave an example, i gave an example, pending further clarification  of what you actually mean by that.

You did not give an example! You gave a hobby.

Plane did not give an example, he said that in some cases some contractors own some of their tools. Do they own the shop? Do they own the company?

Do you see the difference now?
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.