Out Damn Blot

[BT]

You did not give an example! You gave a hobby.

Nonsense.

How do you think Apple got started or Hayes Modems or any other pc computer startup back in the day.

[_JS]

You did not give an example! You gave a hobby.

Nonsense.

How do you think Apple got started or Hayes Modems or any other pc computer startup back in the day.

Irrelevant to the point.

Nice try though.

Are you suggesting that Steve Jobs is a member of the proletariat?

[BT]

Irrelevant to the point.

Nice try though.

Are you suggesting that Steve Jobs is a member of the proletariat?

No i am suggesting that Steve Jobs built an empire out of a hobby. You seemed to think turning hobbies into vocations was a joke.

[_JS]

Irrelevant to the point.

Nice try though.

Are you suggesting that Steve Jobs is a member of the proletariat?

No i am suggesting that Steve Jobs built an empire out of a hobby. You seemed to think turning hobbies into vocations was a joke.

No. I'm saying that it is not an occupation (until it is). In your case it is not your primary means of income.

[BT]

In your case it is not your primary means of income.

Anything i do at any given time is my primary means of income. I am self employed, i own the means of my production. And i am not unique.

[Plane]

Actually, Marx spoke highly of the cottage industries of Britain, which is exactly what you're describing.

That isn't the same as urban industrialization. Of course, you know that.

You asked if i owned the means of production. Apparently in my case i do, because you came back with a yeah but. . .

Fact is lots of working stiffs in the blue collar trades own the means of production, Plane gave an example, i gave an example, pending further clarification  of what you actually mean by that.

You did not give an example! You gave a hobby.

Plane did not give an example, he said that in some cases some contractors own some of their tools. Do they own the shop? Do they own the company?

Do you see the difference now?

Almost all mechanics own thousands of dollars in tools , I as a civil servant am the exeption, the government wants to controll my tools so I am not allowed to use my own.

It is not uncommon at all for a plumber , auto mechanic , welder or even an Aircraft mechanic to own his own business. Check the yellow pages.

Some people prefer working for a large concern , less hassle in insurance and retiremant planning , but how many are really trapped thereby? An employer needs to offer a deal to an employee that keeps him from running off on his own , if he can do better for himself ,he will run off.

[_JS]

And Bt...your point is what? That you are bourgeoisie? Is that somehow surprising?

Either I am dense (completely possible) or you two have yet to make a clear point. Class is determined by one's relationship to the means of production and the surplus labor of others.

So yes, Steve Jobs is a member of the bourgeoisie. The person running a company of plumbers is too. The person managing a Wal-Mart is as well. You two seem to be really hung up on the literal tools. No, owning a trowel does not determine your class, nor does owning your own machine shop.

[BT]

And Bt...your point is what? That you are bourgeoisie? Is that somehow surprising?

I never label myself something that i have to use spellcheck to type.

I'm just a guy. Fairly independent. I do my own thing.

And i don't think i fit neatly into philosophical boxes that are more designed to define a movement than real life situations. And i think there are a whole lot of people like me.

People who work with their hands and their heads, means of production, that i do in fact own.

[_JS]

And Bt...your point is what? That you are bourgeoisie? Is that somehow surprising?

I never label myself something that i have to use spellcheck to type.

I'm just a guy. Fairly independent. I do my own thing.

And i don't think i fit neatly into philosophical boxes that are more designed to define a movement than real life situations. And i think there are a whole lot of people like me.

People who work with their hands and their heads, means of production, that i do in fact own.

The problem with your last sentence is that this fits your definition, but not the Marxian definition of class. It is the same issue that I spoke with Sirs about. If you wish to discuss Marxian terms or Socialist terms, then have the courtesy to at least understand them or be willing to learn. Yet, what you, Plane, and Sirs seem to want to do is to apply your definitions then ponder at how anyone can think like that. One can do that with any line of thought. In fact, that is pretty much the state of our current sorry debate in this country today. It becomes a matter of perception over logic.

[BT]

but not the Marxian definition of class

Why should i care how marx defines class?

[sirs]

I was trying to explain that one to Js, as well

[Plane]

And Bt...your point is what? That you are bourgeoisie? Is that somehow surprising?

Either I am dense (completely possible) or you two have yet to make a clear point. Class is determined by one's relationship to the means of production and the surplus labor of others.

So yes, Steve Jobs is a member of the bourgeoisie. The person running a company of plumbers is too. The person managing a Wal-Mart is as well. You two seem to be really hung up on the literal tools. No, owning a trowel does not determine your class, nor does owning your own machine shop.

Finally !

By this rather strange and narrow definition ,there is no class distinction in the United States. People who are born to wealth can easily determine what their relationship will be to productive capacity , but persons without wealth can earn any relationship they want as well , luck is heavyly involved , but not as much as talent.

[_JS]

1. You use the terms, without understanding them.
2. You asked.
3. To better understand the world around you and the history of that world.
4. To better understand events as they occur.
5. Some of you attack Marxian thought without any understanding of it.

Or, as Billy Bragg once sung:

"You can be active with the activists
Or sleep in with the sleepers
While you're waiting for the Great Leap Forwards"

[_JS]

And Bt...your point is what? That you are bourgeoisie? Is that somehow surprising?

Either I am dense (completely possible) or you two have yet to make a clear point. Class is determined by one's relationship to the means of production and the surplus labor of others.

So yes, Steve Jobs is a member of the bourgeoisie. The person running a company of plumbers is too. The person managing a Wal-Mart is as well. You two seem to be really hung up on the literal tools. No, owning a trowel does not determine your class, nor does owning your own machine shop.

Finally !

By this rather strange and narrow definition ,there is no class distinction in the United States. People who are born to wealth can easily determine what their relationship will be to productive capacity , but persons without wealth can earn any relationship they want as well , luck is heavyly involved , but not as much as talent.

Oh dear lord 

I don't really believe you're that thick Plane. But the act gets tiresome after a while.

[BT]

Define means of production.