Author Topic: Why McCain is a Genius  (Read 7871 times)

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Kramer

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Re: Why McCain is a Genius
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2008, 01:38:23 PM »
Proves I was  nuts to bet you.

I'm tempted, but I won't bet you.  Once was enough for me.  Besides, if you got lucky a second time, I wouldn't want to be the one responsible for turning you into an alcoholic.

That's OK, at this point I don't think it would be a good bet for you to make. I serious doubt that Obama would make the bet either.

Michael Tee

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Re: Why McCain is a Genius
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2008, 01:47:17 PM »
Betcha it's too close to call.

Kramer

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Re: Why McCain is a Genius
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2008, 01:51:08 PM »
Betcha it's too close to call.

Why is it too close to call?

By now you thunk that Obama would be leading by 15 to 20 percentage points.

I mean really 8 years of Bush, a war, the economy, old guy McCain - - why isn't Obama running away with this thing by now?

Let me fill you in on a little secret - - Obama is wrong for America!

Obama
Wrong guy
Wrong time
Wrong message

Michael Tee

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Re: Why McCain is a Genius
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2008, 02:06:38 PM »
<<I mean really 8 years of Bush, a war, the economy, old guy McCain - - why isn't Obama running away with this thing by now?>>

Because he lost his nerve in the middle of his campaign, didn't have the balls to attack McCain vigorously and hit him where he lives.  I think he's turning it around, got himself a good pit bull in Biden and is about to reagain some lost ground.  Meantime McCain screwed up really bad with this bimbo Veep, lost his best argument against Obama ("experience") and will start to sink like a rock when the full extent of Sarah's incompetence, scandals and conservatism comes out.

sirs

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Re: Why McCain is a Genius
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2008, 03:11:22 PM »
"she's against teaching evolution in the public schools"

total fabrication  kramer why do believe anything they say?

Goes back to my inverse deduction assessment, when reading posts from folks such as Tee      8)
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Why McCain is a Genius
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2008, 03:20:21 PM »
"It's clear that I am about ten thousand times smarter than you"

But Michael smart or not you clearly made a factually incorrect statement about Sarah Palin.

"much better educated"

Bill Gates and Michael Dell do not have college degrees. *

"and a much nicer guy as well" 

you both seem like nice guys that at times let their emotions get the better of them



"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Michael Tee

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Re: Why McCain is a Genius
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2008, 03:52:52 PM »
There wasn't much in that particular post that I intended to be taken seriously, CU4.  Kramer was asking me to choose between admitting that I had my head stuck up my ass or that I was a lying Marxist sack of shit.  Around here, that passes as humour.  I didn't take it seriously, and responded appropriately.  Kramer didn't take that seriously either.  Nobody's emotions were getting the better of them.

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Why McCain is a Genius
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2008, 04:57:12 PM »
"Nobody's emotions were getting the better of them"

Ok Michael whatever you say!

Kramer: "you have your head up your ass or you are just another lying sack of shit marxist"

MichaelTee:  "your fucking hostility comes from and why you are so willfully ignorant. Are you a born moron..."



"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Plane

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Re: Why McCain is a Genius
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2008, 06:41:18 PM »
http://phylogenomics.blogspot.com/index.html

It's now becoming a little clearer.&nbsp; Palin is in favour of teaching creation science alongside evolution theory in science class.&nbsp; "A little healthy debate" should be good for all concerned.

That's like saying that history classes should teach 9-11 as "al Qaeda did it" but alongside of that teach that "the Jews did it" or "Bush did it" as theories of equal weight and value and let the kids debate the various theories.

Science class is not a debating group.&nbsp; The kids are there to be TAUGHT and to LEARN science.&nbsp; Which means to be taught the currently accepted scientific theories, which are not in any serious scientific debate amongst reputable scientists.&nbsp; They are not in high school science classes to debate theories and find scientific truth through debate.&nbsp; When they are scientists, they will be able to debate scientific theories but until then they have to learn what the prevailing scientific theories are.




Science is not about debate?

Orthodoxy must be taught as orthodoxy?

Isn't that the sort of thing that caused Gallileo so much troubble?

If the scientific method itself is properly taught , then the right means for settleing debates is being taught and rather than teaching the blind acceptance of what is taught the children being taught to debate learn to think.

I know that learning to think for oneself is very contary to liberal thought , but Conservatives like it and we are an influential 49.9 percent of the USA. So the debate must go on.

Michael Tee

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Re: Why McCain is a Genius
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2008, 06:56:53 PM »
<<Science is not about debate?>>

Not really.  It's investigation, theory, experiment, conclusions.   If any debate occurs, it's between scientists.  High school kids aren't scientists, they are science students.  They are learning to be scientists and when they do, they will develop theories which may or may not be subject to debate.

<<Orthodoxy must be taught as orthodoxy?>>

That's how it works.  Does anyone in history class teach alternative theories?  The kids are there to learn the orthodoxies.  When they've acquired the basics, they can then develop their own theories but not in the public schools, not on the other kids' class time, not on the teachers' time.

<<Isn't that the sort of thing that caused Gallileo so much troubble?>>

No, that was religious orthodoxy.  Not based on scientific theory, just based on "revealed knowledge."  When it came in contact with Galileo's scientific conclusions, it caused him trouble.

<<If the scientific method itself is properly taught , then the right means for settleing debates is being taught >>

That's right.  But knowing how to debate and turning the class into a debating forum are two different things.  Serious scientists do not debate the Creationists becuase they know creationism is not science and they save their debates only for those rare occasions when there are scientific theories to be debated.

<<and rather than teaching the blind acceptance of what is taught the children being taught to debate learn to think.>>

Well, I don't know what you were taught in science class, but I learned to appreciate what a theory is and what it is not and became able to debate any scientific theory including evolution all without wasting any classroom time on such nonsensical theories as the theory of creationism.   If you know the theory of evolution and know how scientific theories are formed, then you know everything you need to know to determine if any alternative theory of the origin of life is good science or bad science.



<<I know that learning to think for oneself is very contary to liberal thought>>

I suppose that's why you believe every word in the Bible and want those who don't to be forced to listen in science class to your non-scientific theories of the origin of life.

<<, but Conservatives like it >>

Conservatives like independent thought, eh?  What about the independent thinker who wants to teach kids that Benji Has Two Mommies?  Is that kind of independent thought independent enough for you to want in the public schools of America?  Or do you think they should only be allowed to think about ONE kind of family?


Amianthus

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Re: Why McCain is a Genius
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2008, 06:58:26 PM »
Science is not about debate?

Intelligent design is not science. If it were, it would be taught. It's not, so it's not taught in science class.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Plane

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Re: Why McCain is a Genius
« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2008, 07:14:45 PM »
<<Science is not about debate?>>

Not really.  It's investigation, theory, experiment, conclusions.   If any debate occurs, it's between scientists.  High school kids aren't scientists, they are science students.  They are learning to be scientists and when they do, they will develop theories which may or may not be subject to debate.

<<Orthodoxy must be taught as orthodoxy?>>

That's how it works.  Does anyone in history class teach alternative theories?  The kids are there to learn the orthodoxies.  When they've acquired the basics, they can then develop their own theories but not in the public schools, not on the other kids' class time, not on the teachers' time.

<<Isn't that the sort of thing that caused Gallileo so much troubble?>>

No, that was religious orthodoxy.  Not based on scientific theory, just based on "revealed knowledge."  When it came in contact with Galileo's scientific conclusions, it caused him trouble.




Ok that is wrong ,there was not a religious question being discussed by Galileo.

Galileo was proposing a new theory of Astronomy , contradicting Phlotemy , not any Biblical problem. The Church had decided to take sides and back the wrong side.

The Theroy of evolution seems like a reasonable theory to me , it might indeed turn out to be the truth , even if it turns out to be the method that God used.

People forget though that the Pholotmic system worked , it predicted eclipses , planetary positions and almost everything that Astronomers knew at the time. Evolution might meet a Galileo someday who has an explanation unguessed at this point. But if the Government has made Evolution the officially accepted orthodoxy we will be poorly prepared to accept any better theory.

The Church should not have taken sides in the debate Galileo was having with Astronomy , but the Church was a big part of the government at the time, they felt obliged to take sides. Our government does not need to take sides and declare one theory or another to be the winner , the Government need not play the role that the church tried to play in the Galileo debacle .

Michael Tee

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Re: Why McCain is a Genius
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2008, 10:05:50 PM »
<<Ok  . . . there was not a religious question being discussed by Galileo.

<<Galileo was proposing a new theory of Astronomy , contradicting Phlotemy , not any Biblical problem.>>

Actually, there was a HUGE Biblical problem involved in Galileo's conclusions.

The Biblical problems involved in Galileo's work are discussed here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo#Church_controversy

There was one explanation for how the earth, sun, moon and stars were set up which came from the Bible, and there was one which Galileo had figured out for himself, based on scientific method.  The Church did not care a rat's ass about Ptolemy, who was long gone from anywhere where they could get their hands on him and was just, as far as they were concerned, one more fucking pagan Greek whose theories, insofar as they contradicted the Holy Mother Church, didn't mean jackshit.   The two explanations (Galileo's and the Bible's) were not in agreement.  Needless to say, it was the Church which threatened Galileo with fatal and extremely painful consequences if he did not change his conclusions, not the other way round.

<<Evolution might meet a Galileo someday who has an explanation unguessed at this point. >>

So what?  Mr. Newton, meet Mr. Einstein.  Mr. Bohr, meet Mr. Heisenberg.  What's the big deal?

<<But if the Government has made Evolution the officially accepted orthodoxy we will be poorly prepared to accept any better theory.>>

That is way off.  Niels Bohr had developed a famous theory of what the atom looked like, which stood until a fella named Werner Heisenberg developed a theory of his own, the Heisenberg Principle of Uncertainty, or just the Heisenberg Principle, at which point the Bohr Theory of the Atom was no longer serviceable until another fella named Erwin Schrodinger was able to modify the Bohr Theory by applying the Heisenberg Principle, resulting in Schrodinger's Modern Theory of Atomic Structure.  There were no academic revolts, no scientists threatened to burn Heisenberg at the stake, Niels Bohr himself didn't give a shit, didn't get fired from any professorships when his theory was replaced with a better one - - that is just science, that's how scientific progress occurs.

Contrast that with religion.  A book is written about two thousand years ago, more in the case of the Old Testament, and it's never gonna change.  It's inerrant.  What they wrote then was good then and today.

Maybe you have confused scientific method with religious method.  The only place where <<we will be poorly prepared to accept any better theory>> is in the world of religion, not the world of science.

Our government does not need to take sides and declare one theory or another to be the winner , the Government need not play the role that the church tried to play in the Galileo debacle .

<<Our government does not need to take sides and declare one theory or another to be the winner , the Government need not play the role that the church tried to play in the Galileo debacle .>>

Now you're starting to make sense.  The government should not decide and the church should not decide which theory is scientific and which is not. Who then should decide what should be taught in science class?  Obviously, scientists.  There are no reputable scientists (Nobel Prize winners, heads of departments or faculties of major universities, winners of other scientific prizes and awards) whom I know of who believe that evolutionary theory is bad science.  There are no reputable scientists I know of who believe that Creation Science and/or Intelligent Design is good science.  So if both church and government keep out of the controversy and let scientists decide what is science and what is not, evolution will be taught in the public schools and Creation Science and/or Intelligent Design will not.

Amianthus

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Re: Why McCain is a Genius
« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2008, 10:18:56 PM »
That is way off.  Niels Bohr had developed a famous theory of what the atom looked like, which stood until a fella named Werner Heisenberg developed a theory of his own, the Heisenberg Principle of Uncertainty, or just the Heisenberg Principle, at which point the Bohr Theory of the Atom was no longer serviceable until another fella named Erwin Schrodinger was able to modify the Bohr Theory by applying the Heisenberg Principle, resulting in Schrodinger's Modern Theory of Atomic Structure.  There were no academic revolts, no scientists threatened to burn Heisenberg at the stake, Niels Bohr himself didn't give a shit, didn't get fired from any professorships when his theory was replaced with a better one - - that is just science, that's how scientific progress occurs.

Talk about over simplification.

Bohr's model is still used, it is a simplification. Newton's model is still used, it is a simplification.

The refined models, using quantum theory, are only used in exotic environments (high energy, high gravity, etc).

Bohr's model of the atom (nucleus of protons and neutrons, with electrons orbiting) is still accurate. All Heisenberg did was prove that you know both the position and velocity of the individual particles simultaneously. Schroedinger combined Bohr's model with wave functions to satisfy quantum dictates.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Plane

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Re: Why McCain is a Genius
« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2008, 10:26:04 PM »
Quote
<<Our government does not need to take sides and declare one theory or another to be the winner , the Government need not play the role that the church tried to play in the Galileo debacle .>>
"
Now you're starting to make sense. &nbsp;The government should not decide and the church should not decide which theory is scientific and which is not. Who then should decide what should be taught in science class? &nbsp;Obviously, scientists."

The Church was not defending a system found in the Scripture , they were defending scientific orthodoxy .http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy

Ptolemy &nbsp;was a scientist as mush as any of his day , and his system is a work of geinus , it is based on observation and calculation and it worked.

It worked pretty well for being a system based on very nearly the exact opposite of the truth , but that is how things do work sometimes.

You are doing well to bring up scientific theroys that advanced and were improved or supplanted by succeeding scientists , this is my point. Teaching the scientific method and teaching carefull thinking and teaching debate are all good ideas and produce a flexability of mind that rote teaching of government approved facts do not.

For the government to place its blessing on any scientific theroy for teaching purposes is inappropriate and causes an unweildly process to go through as inevitably scientific progress improves theroys .

Even involveing scientists in the chooseing of the orthodoxy is not diffrent , there were lots of astronimers in Gallileos day ready to vote in favor of Ptolemy , perhaps a majority would have done so.

The scientific truth is found with science , not democracy ,and the acceptance of scientific truth is done with proofs in debate , persuasion , not fiat of rulers whether pope or president.