The new low.

[Amianthus]

I see.  So according to you, prior to the Bush administration's refusal to fund human fetal stem-cell research not involving the 60-odd existing cultured lines, no human fetal stem-cell research had been funded by government grant at any point in history, is that what you're saying?

Grant money was not made available by Congress until after President Bush's August 9, 2001 announcement.

[sirs]

Yeah.  Here's "the question no one could answer" reproduced in its entirety:

<<Are there any wasteful experiments in stem cells that these people have in mind, or is this just more crazed ranting and raving from the usual suspects off in the outer reaches of right-wing paranoid fantasies?>>

Tough one, eh?  Either they produce a single example of the "wasteful" experiments in stem-cell research that they're always blathering on about, or reveal themselves as liars and fantasists by coming up empty-handed.

Yeah, it is impossible to answer. Since the funding is not available, no one is writing up grant requests for those experiments, therefore - unless you can read minds - there is no way to know what "these people have in mind" ...

BINGO.......now we can watch more deflection efforts

[Michael Tee]

<<Grant money was not made available by Congress until after President Bush's August 9, 2001 announcement.>>

How fortunate for you and your little side-kick.  Now you won't have to prove your ridiculous accusations of massive waste, fraud etc. in government grants for human fetal stem-cell research.  Maybe you can give us some examples of this massive fraudulent waste in some other federally-funded microbiology research, or is it your opinion that the government has never funded ANY microbiology research?

[Amianthus]

How fortunate for you and your little side-kick.  Now you won't have to prove your ridiculous accusations of massive waste, fraud etc. in government grants for human fetal stem-cell research.  Maybe you can give us some examples of this massive fraudulent waste in some other federally-funded microbiology research, or is it your opinion that the government has never funded ANY microbiology research?

I can demonstrate lots of waste and fraud. I gave an example earlier.

[Michael Tee]

<<I can demonstrate lots of waste and fraud. I gave an example earlier.>>

Yeah, which had absolutely nothing to do with microbiology.

[Amianthus]

Yeah, which had absolutely nothing to do with microbiology.

What, a government that grants wasteful money in one area is going to be squeaky clean in that particular area?

OK, the CDC handles awarding microbiology grants:

"Science slighted in CDC awards; Cash bonuses at troubled health agency frequently go to bureaucrats instead of researchers," The Atlanta Journal Constitution, p. 1A, September 17, 2006, by Alison Young. Documents obtained by the Atlanta Journal-Constitution under FOIA show that frequently large cash awards and performance bonuses awarded at the CDC went to bureaucrats rather than scientists, leading to low morale and the loss of key scientific leaders at the agency.

[Michael Tee]

I guess if you were the one handing out the bonuses for the Manhattan Project, everything would have gone to Oppenheimer and the boys and Groves woulda come up empty-handed.

Sometimes the "bureaucrats" do a stand-up job of managing the scientists.  Is that supposed to go unrewarded?

Never heard of infighting, jealousy and bickering regarding awards?  Oh, sorry, forgot you guys don't live in the real world.

[Amianthus]

Sometimes the "bureaucrats" do a stand-up job of managing the scientists.  Is that supposed to go unrewarded?

Err, these are the bureaucrats that HAND OUT the grant money. Not the ones who manage scientists. They are using the grant money to "reward" themselves.

[Michael Tee]

<<Err, these are the bureaucrats that HAND OUT the grant money. Not the ones who manage scientists. They are using the grant money to "reward" themselves.>>

Ohhhhhh.  Oh.  Then we aren't really talking about waste in research grants, we are talking about a much older phenomenon - - defrauding the government.  That's something the Republican Party seems to know quite a lot about.  Shall I make up a list?  Why bother?  Just tell me how defrauding the government by bureaucrats and/or politicians is somehow related to the stem-cell issue rather than to other government activities such as national defence, FDA, etc.

[Amianthus]

Fraud is fraud. You were implying it doesn't happen with federal money. It does, and it's rampant.

[Michael Tee]

<<Fraud is fraud. You were implying it doesn't happen with federal money. It does, and it's rampant.>.

So what, it's just as rampant if not more so in private enterprise.  What do you recommend, shutting down all scientific research in the country to foil the fraudsters?

[Amianthus]

So what, it's just as rampant if not more so in private enterprise.  What do you recommend, shutting down all scientific research in the country to foil the fraudsters?

Limiting funding so that it can be controlled.

Kinda like what's done now.

[Xavier_Onassis]

What do you do when you are personally of the opinion that some business with which you do business is corrupt?
I tend to seek out a less corrupt business.

Here in Miami, just yesterday, several gas stations with no nearby competition hiked their gasoline prices up to a dollar a gallon, based on the supposed limit in supply caused by Hurricane Ike, which could not have possibly affected the cost of the gas in their tanks so soon. I take note of such places and never buy from them.

I would not buy less than I needed to punish them, that is punishing myself.

The key to limiting corruption is better supervision, not restricting funding.

[Plane]

What do you do when you are personally of the opinion that some business with which you do business is corrupt?
I tend to seek out a less corrupt business.

Here in Miami, just yesterday, several gas stations with no nearby competition hiked their gasoline prices up to a dollar a gallon, based on the supposed limit in supply caused by Hurricane Ike, which could not have possibly affected the cost of the gas in their tanks so soon. I take note of such places and never buy from them.

I would not buy less than I needed to punish them, that is punishing myself.

The key to limiting corruption is better supervision, not restricting funding.

If you were selling your house , would you ignore the price of other homes?

[sirs]

So what (that fraud is rampant with the use of Federal monies)

Priceless

...it's just as rampant if not more so in private enterprise.  What do you recommend, shutting down all scientific research in the country to foil the fraudsters?

Limiting funding so that it can be controlled.  Kinda like what's done now.

Bingo.....compromise achieved