Author Topic: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.  (Read 3757 times)

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Michael Tee

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$700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
« on: September 20, 2008, 01:30:23 PM »
Just watched CNN this morning and it sure looks to me like the final nail in the GOP coffin.

After two full terms of Republican "leadership" the country has come to this - - deregulated financial mismanagement on a scale never before seen, requiring $700 BILLION of YOUR money for a two-year bail-out.  YOU are gonna pay for what the Republican President and his Congress FAILED to do for almost all of his term.  There is NO WAY any of this can be blamed on Clinton. 

Moreover, from what comment I've seen on TV this morning, the $700 bill buys only a "temporary fix."  The underlying problems are still there, unresolved, and the currency, by virtue of the new printing of funds required for the bailout, has been further weakened, accelerating the time when foreign holders and speculators will finally have to dump, regardless of consequences.

But that's not even the best part.  The Republicans, in their "judgment" and "experience" - - McCain among them, and prominently so - - embroiled the nation in a pointless fiasco, a war that has so far cost $500 billion (ten times more than the original projected cost!) and is still on-going with no end in sight.  Prof. John Siteglitz, a Nobel-Prize-winning economist, has projected a TOTAL THREE TRILLION DOLLAR COST of this war, which has also cost the American people 4,000 American lives and almost 30,000 wounded and crippled.  THERE IS NO POSSIBLE GOOD OUTCOME FOR THIS WAR.  The cost is what it is, and can only go up.  The dead remain dead, the wounded remain wounded.  Oh, but . . . but the Iraqis now have "democracy" out of it.  BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!  They never WANTED democracy.  Each faction wanted to WIN - - they have a never-ending civil war, more torture and atrocities from all sides, the militias, the government and the Americans, than they ever got under Saddam Hussein, millions refugees abroad and even more millions refugees in their own country.   THAT'S what the Iraqis got out of all this.  THAT'S why 70% want the Americans to leave.  Now.

So what is the fiscal capacity of America now to fight another war as potentially draining as the Iraq War?  None.  Nada.  Zero.  Zip.  They're a punked-out power and don't think the other powers don't fully realize this.  Don't think Iran doesn't have this all figured out.  Or Russia.  Or the Afghan and Iraqi rebels.  Or the Chinese.  All your lies and bullshit are finally catching up with you.  What a shame.  Crime DOESN'T pay.  Not in the long run.  Not when the criminal is particularly stupid.

When Obama promises "change" I think most people "get" it.  Change isn't a "new policy."  New policies are cranked out at will by college kids  or academics working for one side or the other and they don't mean shit.  You could probably make a mountain bigger than Everest out of all the plans of all the candidates over the past 20 years.  Change means new people, new outlooks and above all a change of controlling interests.  Most people probably understand at some level that both parties' candidates have been bankrolled by big money in the past, that they came from the same dominant white corporate-controlled culture and that they represented the same corporate interests and the same foreign-policy special interests, a good example of which is the Jewish Lobby, for which both sides competed vigorously with one another to prove their loyalty.

Obama represents a break from the old interests because he does not depend on them for campaign money.  THAT'S why they're scared of him.  He's a man they cannot control.  That is too big a risk for them to take.  The "experience" thing is a crock.  McCain's "experience" is limited at best, but he's been in the Senate for three decades and accomplished next to nothing of any lasting value.  With all his "experience," he lacked the fundamental good judgment shown by Obama in opposing the Iraq War.  His REAL view of the value of experience is shown in his nomination of Palin as Veep.  If experience were anywhere near as valuable as he claims, he would never have picked her.  Harry Truman once said there were hundreds of men who could do his job, it was nowhere near as difficult as the popular mythology had made it out to be.  Obama has a razor-sharp intellect and the academic credentials to prove it.  The old interests have brought the country to the brink of catastrophe and the people know it.  That's why they want change now, and that's why Obama is the only credible choice for those who want change.

BT

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Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2008, 01:38:45 PM »
Obama is AWOL on the ecoomic situation.

BTW are you aware that AIG (85 Billion) was regulated by the state of New York. The guy at the helm was an Elliot Spitzer appointee.

Fannie and Freddie were creations of FDR and semi privatized under LBJ.




Michael Tee

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Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2008, 02:19:50 PM »
<<Obama is AWOL on the ecoomic situation.>>

That seems to be the GOP talking point du jour.  On Larry King Live last night, this guy kept parroting that line over and over again, until even Larry King got fed up with him, a rare occurrence indeed.

I think there is a fundamental desire for change in the country.  You are really talking "instant solution" which is not at all the same thing.  Obviously I can't speak for the country, but I'll tell you my take on this, because I think there are a lot of Americans right now who see this the same way. 

This problem is NOT going to be solved by some quick-fix policy spat out overnight by a bunch of policy wonks working for either candidate.  So I'm not particularly impressed that McCain now claims to have a solution or that Obama doesn't.  McCain in fact was spectacularly unimpressive, being against the AIG bail-out on Monday and for it on Tuesday. 

The problem was like a slow-growing cancer, but it required a specific kind of environment over the past years in order to grow at all.  That environment was provided by both Democrats and Republicans - - it was an instinctively "pro-business" attitude which has somehow come to mean anti-regulatory, and it was an environment that went from anti-regulatory to laissez-faire to sauve-qui-peut in a relatively short period of time.  For most of the last eight years, this process accelerated under a Republican President and a Republican Congress.

How did it happen that the elected representatives of the people were at once so solicitous of the corporate interests involved and so cavalier towards safeguarding the interests of the American people who elected them and whom they were sworn to protect?  IMHO, it can all be explained by the realities of campaign financing.  John McCain's role in the Keating Five scandal, whitewashed though he ultimately was, provides a textbook example of how it works - - lavish campaign financing, expensive vacations, golfing trips and the good life in general, whatever it takes for whatever candidate or office-holder is being wooed - - and the sucker takes the bait nine times out of ten.  Does what's expected of him.

You're right - - Obama's AWOL on the economic situation.  That doesn't matter.  What DOES matter is that he's not on anyone's payroll.  Tony Rezko's in jail.  He's not writing any paycheques and if he were, he's very, very small stuff compared to guys like Charles Keating.  His interests are strictly local, not national.  He might be the kind of guy Obama had to rely on when he was just fighting his way off the streets of Chicago, but he's a long way past that now.  The people KNOW where Obama's money comes from, and it ain't Tony Rezko.  Obama's money comes truly from the people.  People like them, his supporters.

So what people can understand very well is that when Obama DOES make a decision on the economy, or on anything else, it's going to be UNINFLUENCED by the kind of people who in the past could buy John McCain, or both sides of the Congressional aisle.  Obama's a new kind of candidate precisely because he's got a new source of campaign funding.  THAT is the kind of change that people want.  An elimination of the special behind-the-scenes powers and the candidates that they could buy and sell.

<<BTW are you aware that AIG (85 Billion) was regulated by the state of New York. The guy at the helm was an Elliot Spitzer appointee.>>

Weak, BT, incredibly weak.  AIG operated nationally and internationally.  It is not the State of New York that is bailing out AIG, it is the United States of America.  You can't blame this one on Spitzer any more than you can blame it on Clinton.  The Republicans have had EIGHT YEARS to fix the problem.

<<Fannie and Freddie were creations of FDR and semi privatized under LBJ.>>

Yeah, and George Lincoln Rockwell, the late head of the American Nazi Party, was the son of Norman Rockwell.  At some point in a progeny's life, the parent ceases to bear any responsibility for his actions.  They accomplished a lot under many Presidential administrations.  Under Bush, they soured and went bad.  The Republican President and the Republican-controlled Congress had almost eight years to see the problem developing and did nothing to head off the looming disaster.  Leadership? 

Sorry, BT, eight years is a long time.  Too long to blame on the Democrats.  I'm afraid your brand is fucked.  It's tainted meat, and nobody's buying.  This is gonna be a landslide.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2008, 02:24:27 PM by Michael Tee »

BT

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Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2008, 02:26:43 PM »
Quote
It is not the State of New York that is bailing out AIG, it is the United States of America.

States regulate insurance companies. In AIG''s case it was New York.

Quote
Yeah, and George Lincoln Rockwell, the late head of the American Nazi Party, was the son of Norman Rockwell.

No he wasn't.








Michael Tee

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Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2008, 02:59:46 PM »
Well, thank you for correcting me on the parentage of George Lincoln Rockwell.  I'll amend my argument accordingly - - at some point in his son's life, Doc Rockwell ceased to be responsible for him.

I'm not sure how things work in the U.S. regarding insurance regulation, but Canada also is a federation and what makes sense here would make the same sense in the U.S.   Because the Provinces regulate the insurance industry, Ontario licenses insurance companies and regulates them.  If an insurance company licensed in another Province wishes to do business in Ontario, it must conform to certain provisions of Ontario insurance law and provide certification of compliance.  In addition, but I'm not sure of this, I believe that an insurer wishing to do business across Canada needs some Federal approvals as well although perhaps this might be an alternative to seeking approval in each and every Provincial jurisdiction.    I would bet the U.S. has pretty much the same system we do, (a) since it makes sense and (b) since most of our advances in administrative law are usually copied from what some American state has already done first.

BT

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Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2008, 03:21:26 PM »
Canada is not the US just as McCain is not Bush.


Michael Tee

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Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2008, 03:29:27 PM »
I find it very hard to believe that the U.S. is going to bail out a company whose oversight and control lay entirely within the purview of the State of New York.

Sorry, but I just don't buy it. 

Even if it were true, it's evidence of a shocking lack of responsibility for the Bush administration to watch helplessly while a situation entirely within the control of the state of New York ran up an ultimate $700 billion liability on American taxpayers.  Some action should have been formulated way earlier, even in the form of a federal law forbidding bail-out money to any state-regulated institution that did not meet Federal standards.  They stood by "thumb in the bum and mind in neutral" while all this went down and then reach into their wallet for $700 billion to pay when the shit hits the fan?

Unbelievable.  NOBODY will buy that.  That is NOT the kind of leadership and initiative they expect from their leaders.

There is no way I can see that any intelligent voter will overlook this.  You're living in a dreamworld.

Universe Prince

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Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2008, 04:38:43 PM »
deregulated financial mismanagement on a scale never before seen

Right. And the Great Depression was caused by unfettered laissez faire capitalism. And yes, I am being wholly sarcastic.

But you are probably right that this will help Obama. He's going to promise to save us all, and we will dutifully vote for the man who promises to screw up the economy so much that we will be left dependent on government, much like most of the public was during the Great Depression. And we will have no one to blame but ourselves. The government will save us by damning us, and we will blindly ignore the damnation like slaves who find terrifying the prospect of freedom.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

BT

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Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2008, 07:25:24 PM »
Quote
I find it very hard to believe that the U.S. is going to bail out a company whose oversight and control lay entirely within the purview of the State of New York.

Sorry, but I just don't buy it. 

Then i suggest you study up on the issue and find out why AIG was bailed out and not Lehmans.


Michael Tee

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Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2008, 07:36:06 PM »
<<Then i suggest you study up on the issue and find out why AIG was bailed out and not Lehmans. >>

And I suggest that if you've got anything to say on the issue, that you come out and say it, instead of recommending that I read up on the issue.  We're exchanging ideas and arguments here and if you know more than I do or have facts I'm not aware of, advance the debate by stating them, not by sending me off on a wild goose chase after some undefined rebuttal which you claim is just waiting to be discovered by me.  And more often than not, if past experience is any guide, is not.

If I wanted to become an expert on the subject, I'd take a course in it instead of wasting my time batting ideas around with people who might or might not know something I don't.  I don't come in here posing as an expert on something I'm not, and I don't think you should either.  I give my opinion based on what I know and if anyone knows more than I, I'm happy to hear and consider their POV.  Your posing as an expert who has "studied up on the issue" and presumably knows a lot more about it than I do, is bullshit.  Put up or shut up.

BT

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Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2008, 07:49:24 PM »
I've already posted the article from Time magazine that explains it all in this forum.

But here's a hint.

A lot more little people would be affected by the failure of AIG than the failure of Lehman Bros.

You are interested in protecting the working man aren't you?







Michael Tee

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Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2008, 08:01:25 PM »
You STILL don't get it, do you?

The issue is not the bail-out it's the preceding 8 years of neglect that permitted the situation to develop to the point where the American people have to shell out $700 billion to rectify corporate misfeasance by people who were in bed with the old-style "leaders" on both sides of the aisle.

Plane

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Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2008, 08:34:18 PM »
Are Socialists pleased that a major Company now is the property of the people?

Plane

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Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2008, 08:37:06 PM »
You're right - - Obama's AWOL on the economic situation.  That doesn't matter.  What DOES matter is that he's not on anyone's payroll.

Biden is on that payroll.

BT

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Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2008, 08:43:20 PM »
Quote
You STILL don't get it, do you?

I get that AIG was regulated by the state of new york.