Author Topic: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.  (Read 3759 times)

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Amianthus

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Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2008, 11:14:55 PM »
I find it very hard to believe that the U.S. is going to bail out a company whose oversight and control lay entirely within the purview of the State of New York.

The Federal Reserve Bank of New York took the initiative to pledge to the bailout. Congress just backed them up.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Knutey

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Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2008, 11:31:20 PM »
I've already posted the article from Time magazine that explains it all in this forum.

But here's a hint.

A lot more little people would be affected by the failure of AIG than the failure of Lehman Bros.

You are interested in protecting the working man aren't you?








BTW AIG gave much more to Repubs and Lehmann more to Dems. How odd no?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4017446

Michael Tee

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Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2008, 11:32:20 PM »
<<I get that AIG was regulated by the state of new york. >>

I KNOW that's what you get.  Unfortunately, it appears that that's ALL that you get.

What you still don't get is this:

<<The issue is not the bail-out, it's the preceding 8 years of neglect that permitted the situation to develop to the point where the American people have to shell out $700 billion to rectify corporate misfeasance by people who were in bed with the old-style "leaders" on both sides of the aisle."

Don't worry, I know that the American people are nowhere near as obtuse.  They know right away that the $700 billion comes from their pockets and comes as a result of negligence and governmental misfeasance, the last eight years of which can be laid at the feet of the Republican Party.  If you don't get it, it's no great loss.  Enough Americans DO get it, and they'll make the necessary adjustments in Novermber.

BT

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Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2008, 11:32:57 PM »
Quote
Even if it were true, it's evidence of a shocking lack of responsibility for the Bush administration to watch helplessly while a situation entirely within the control of the state of New York ran up an ultimate $700 billion liability on American taxpayers.

AIG was 86 Billion.

You really are like a windup toy playing fast and loose with facts and figures.


BT

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Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2008, 11:33:47 PM »
Quote
BTW AIG gave much more to Repubs and Lehmann more to Dems. How odd no?

Goes to show dems are a bad investment.


BT

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Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2008, 11:35:23 PM »
Quote
Don't worry, I know that the American people are nowhere near as obtuse.  They know right away that the $700 billion comes from their pockets and comes as a result of negligence and governmental misfeasance, the last eight years of which can be laid at the feet of the Republican Party.  If you don't get it, it's no great loss.  Enough Americans DO get it, and they'll make the necessary adjustments in Novermber.

What Americans get is this is the perfect storm and i don't think they will show much interest in a candidate whose plan is AWOL.


Knutey

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Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2008, 11:36:02 PM »
Quote
BTW AIG gave much more to Repubs and Lehmann more to Dems. How odd no?

Goes to show dems are a bad investment.



Shows Repubs are bigger crooks.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2008, 12:39:58 AM »
Fannie and Freddie were creations of FDR and semi privatized under LBJ.


So what?

Until Phil Gramm made it possible to bundle mortgages and sell the bundles withoutr adequate supervision, Fannie and Freddie were solvent.

This mess is due to a lack of regulation, and that was caused durung the Juniorbush administration. You can't blame FDR and LBJ for this.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

BT

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Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2008, 01:05:02 AM »
Quote
Shows Repubs are bigger crooks.

Yet it is the dems who took the money and didn't deliver.


Universe Prince

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Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2008, 12:26:25 PM »

The government will save us by damning us, and we will blindly ignore the damnation like slaves who find terrifying the prospect of freedom.


And thus it came to pass:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a1hr1v2FUeAg&refer=home

      The Bush administration asked Congress for unchecked power to buy $700 billion in bad mortgage investments from U.S. financial companies in what would be an unprecedented government intrusion into the markets.

The plan, designed by Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson, is aimed at averting a credit freeze that would bring the financial system and economic growth to a standstill. The bill would bar courts from reviewing actions taken under its authority.

[...]

The plan would raise the ceiling on the national debt and spend as much as the combined annual budgets of the Departments of Defense, Education and Health and Human Services. Paulson is asking for the power to hire asset managers and award contracts to private companies. Most provisions of the proposal expire after two years from the date of enactment.

A failure by the government to support the U.S. financial system could lead to ``a depression,'' Senator Charles Schumer told reporters in New York. ``To do nothing is to risk the kind of economic downturn this country hasn't seen in 60 years.''

[...]

Paulson is seeking an expansion of federal influence over markets that hasn't been seen since the Great Depression, said Charles Geisst, author of ``100 Years of Wall Street'' and a finance professor at Manhattan College in New York.

[...]

The ban on legal challenges of actions by Treasury is ``distasteful, it's unfortunate and it's bad precedent, but this is an emergency and you have to act,'' said Jerry Markham, a law professor at Florida State University and author of ``A Financial History of the United States.''

``What you don't want happen is to have lawsuits that will slow things down and cause problems,'' he said.

The proposal would raise the nation's debt ceiling to $11.315 trillion from $10.615 trillion and require the Treasury secretary to report back to Congress three months after Treasury first uses its new powers, and then semiannually after that.

[...]

The Bush administration seeks ``dictatorial power unreviewable by the third branch of government, the courts, to try to resolve the crisis,'' said Frank Razzano, a former assistant chief trial attorney at the Securities and Exchange Commission now at Pepper Hamilton LLP in Washington. ``We are taking a huge leap of faith.''
      
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Michael Tee

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Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2008, 11:58:27 PM »
<<AIG was 86 Billion.

<<You really are like a windup toy playing fast and loose with facts and figures. >>

Ridiculous.    YOU are the one playing fast and loose with the numbers.  AIG is only a part of the problem, not the whole problem.  AIG contributed $86 billion to a $700 billion problem.  It was the Bush administration that stood by for 8 years while a problem built up that is today costing the American people $700 billion to resolve.  Stood by and did nothing but watch.  I'd love to see how they paste that on the Democrats' ass.


<<What Americans get is this is the perfect storm . . . >>

A "perfect storm" that built up un-noticed through eight years of Republican administration?  That bursts in one day and is gone the next?  I don't think so.

<< . . . and i don't think they will show much interest in a candidate whose plan is AWOL.>>

No, but they'll be REAL interested in a 72-year-old dummy who tells them he's against bail-out on Monday, for it on Tuesday and has "the plan" to fix it all on Wednesday.  He'll fire the head of the SEC on Monday.  Or wait a minute, no he won't on Tuesday.  Yeah, that's a plan, alright.

IF they are going to be interested in McCain's so-called "plan" then they are waaay dumber than even I thought they were, and, frankly, I have thought they were pretty damn dumb.  You better hope they are dumber than a box of rocks if you want them to trust in McCain's "plan" rather than Obama's abilities.

BT

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Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2008, 12:37:42 AM »
Quote
You better hope they are dumber than a box of rocks if you want them to trust in McCain's "plan" rather than Obama's abilities.

So we should just have faith in Obama. Even though he hasn't articulated a plan.
Maybe that Jesus was a community organizer isn't so far off.


Michael Tee

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Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2008, 01:13:19 PM »
<<So we should just have faith in Obama. Even though he hasn't articulated a plan.
<<Maybe that Jesus was a community organizer isn't so far off.>>

Say that you are faced with a huge and immensely complex problem.  A problem so complex that even Michael Tee can't understand it.  And two men come to you to apply for a job, the duties of which will include fixing the problem.

One of the two men is a seventy-two-year-old numbnuts and former pilot, who came within a hair's breadth of flunking out of a military academy (!) and the other is a youngish Professor of Constitutional Law who graduated magna cum laude from Harvard Law and was the chief editor of the Harvard Law Review.


One of them, the 72-year-old numbnuts, tells you that there is no real problem, his main economic adviser says that Americans who complain about the problem are just "whiners," then he tells you that a bail-out isn't the answer, then he tells you that a bail-out IS the answer, and then he brings you his plan, ready-made in a matter of days.

Who gets the job?  (Hint:  This has nothing to do with Jesus.)

Oh, and let's not forget, Old Numbnuts had about three decades logged in of watching the situation fester and did nothing of any lasting value to change things around.

Who gets the job?

The other guy, the youngisn

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2008, 01:23:17 PM »
That is not entirely fair.

You have not proven that McCain's nuts are in fact, numb.
==============================================
For a candidate to discuss economics is basically fruitless. It is a complicated subject, and the voters you need to convince are not clever enough to complete a 1040 EZ form, let alone evaluate topics like derivatives and zero-prime lending. If you had all the answers and were lecturing economists in ECO 567 Macroeconomics, you would be lucky to have 80% of the class understand 80% of your explanation.

As it is, five minutes into your lecture, 90% of your audience has switched over to a rerun of Gilligan's Island. No candidate can hold an audience on this subject. Maybe with Ross Perot's charts, you could keep 15% of the audience. Of course, the undecided voter is who you are really after, and many of these have the attention span of a drunken fruitfly.

So, yes, it is about trust. We have to trust that one of these guys knows more, and identify who he is and vote for him, assuming that this is the decisive issue.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

BT

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Re: $700 Billion? OK, election's over. Obama wins.
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2008, 01:25:50 PM »
Quote
Oh, and let's not forget, Old Numbnuts had about three decades logged in of watching the situation fester and did nothing of any lasting value to change things around.

really? what is this story about ?

How the Democrats Created the Financial Crisis: Kevin Hassett

Commentary by Kevin Hassett


Sept. 22 (Bloomberg) -- The financial crisis of the past year has provided a number of surprising twists and turns, and from Bear Stearns Cos. to American International Group Inc., ambiguity has been a big part of the story.

Why did Bear Stearns fail, and how does that relate to AIG? It all seems so complex.

But really, it isn't. Enough cards on this table have been turned over that the story is now clear. The economic history books will describe this episode in simple and understandable terms: Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac exploded, and many bystanders were injured in the blast, some fatally.

Fannie and Freddie did this by becoming a key enabler of the mortgage crisis. They fueled Wall Street's efforts to securitize subprime loans by becoming the primary customer of all AAA-rated subprime-mortgage pools. In addition, they held an enormous portfolio of mortgages themselves.

In the times that Fannie and Freddie couldn't make the market, they became the market. Over the years, it added up to an enormous obligation. As of last June, Fannie alone owned or guaranteed more than $388 billion in high-risk mortgage investments. Their large presence created an environment within which even mortgage-backed securities assembled by others could find a ready home.

The problem was that the trillions of dollars in play were only low-risk investments if real estate prices continued to rise. Once they began to fall, the entire house of cards came down with them.

Turning Point

Take away Fannie and Freddie, or regulate them more wisely, and it's hard to imagine how these highly liquid markets would ever have emerged. This whole mess would never have happened.

It is easy to identify the historical turning point that marked the beginning of the end.

Back in 2005, Fannie and Freddie were, after years of dominating Washington, on the ropes. They were enmeshed in accounting scandals that led to turnover at the top. At one telling moment in late 2004, captured in an article by my American Enterprise Institute colleague Peter Wallison, the Securities and Exchange Comiission's chief accountant told disgraced Fannie Mae chief Franklin Raines that Fannie's position on the relevant accounting issue was not even ``on the page'' of allowable interpretations.

Then legislative momentum emerged for an attempt to create a ``world-class regulator'' that would oversee the pair more like banks, imposing strict requirements on their ability to take excessive risks. Politicians who previously had associated themselves proudly with the two accounting miscreants were less eager to be associated with them. The time was ripe.

Greenspan's Warning

The clear gravity of the situation pushed the legislation forward. Some might say the current mess couldn't be foreseen, yet in 2005 Alan Greenspan told Congress how urgent it was for it to act in the clearest possible terms: If Fannie and Freddie ``continue to grow, continue to have the low capital that they have, continue to engage in the dynamic hedging of their portfolios, which they need to do for interest rate risk aversion, they potentially create ever-growing potential systemic risk down the road,'' he said. ``We are placing the total financial system of the future at a substantial risk.''

What happened next was extraordinary. For the first time in history, a serious Fannie and Freddie reform bill was passed by the Senate Banking Committee. The bill gave a regulator power to crack down, and would have required the companies to eliminate their investments in risky assets.

Different World

If that bill had become law, then the world today would be different. In 2005, 2006 and 2007, a blizzard of terrible mortgage paper fluttered out of the Fannie and Freddie clouds, burying many of our oldest and most venerable institutions. Without their checkbooks keeping the market liquid and buying up excess supply, the market would likely have not existed.

But the bill didn't become law, for a simple reason: Democrats opposed it on a party-line vote in the committee, signaling that this would be a partisan issue. Republicans, tied in knots by the tight Democratic opposition, couldn't even get the Senate to vote on the matter.

That such a reckless political stand could have been taken by the Democrats was obscene even then. Wallison wrote at the time: ``It is a classic case of socializing the risk while privatizing the profit. The Democrats and the few Republicans who oppose portfolio limitations could not possibly do so if their constituents understood what they were doing.''

Mounds of Materials

Now that the collapse has occurred, the roadblock built by Senate Democrats in 2005 is unforgivable. Many who opposed the bill doubtlessly did so for honorable reasons. Fannie and Freddie provided mounds of materials defending their practices. Perhaps some found their propaganda convincing.

But we now know that many of the senators who protected Fannie and Freddie, including Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton and Christopher Dodd, have received mind-boggling levels of financial support from them over the years.

Throughout his political career, Obama has gotten more than $125,000 in campaign contributions from employees and political action committees of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, second only to Dodd, the Senate Banking Committee chairman, who received more than $165,000.

Clinton, the 12th-ranked recipient of Fannie and Freddie PAC and employee contributions, has received more than $75,000 from the two enterprises and their employees. The private profit found its way back to the senators who killed the fix.

There has been a lot of talk about who is to blame for this crisis. A look back at the story of 2005 makes the answer pretty clear.

Oh, and there is one little footnote to the story that's worth keeping in mind while Democrats point fingers between now and Nov. 4: Senator John McCain was one of the three cosponsors of S.190, the bill that would have averted this mess.



http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aSKSoiNbnQY0#


BTW if the young guy didn't submit a plan he wouldn't be considered.