Author Topic: 1st Presidential Debate  (Read 3479 times)

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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: 1st Presidential Debate
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2008, 12:22:02 AM »
Perhaps you were in the bathroom when Obama said he was for the Ukraine and Georgia joining NATO.

I didn't hear that, and I was not in the bathroom.

It is stupid, and would be amazingly unwise. Fortunately, the rest of NATO will not permit it.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: 1st Presidential Debate
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2008, 12:29:55 AM »
Sirs calls it a Draw.......which in effect gives it Obama.  But McCain's grasp of Foreign policy was notably unmatched
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: 1st Presidential Debate
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2008, 12:40:09 AM »
But McCain's grasp of Foreign policy was notably unmatched

Anyone who thinks Iran is a major threat or that Georgia ought to be admitted to NATO has a singularly wimpy grasp.

I suppose that one might argue that this should be said to frighten the Russians, but the reality is that the US actually signing a treaty by which the US is obligated to defend the Ukraines and the Georgians from the Russkies on the Russkies own turf is unbefuckinglievably stupid. Such a war could not be won without a draft and a lot more money than we have pissed away in Iraq.

This would be like Putin signing a mutual treaty to defend Saint-Pierre et Miquelon against the Americans.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

BT

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Re: 1st Presidential Debate
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2008, 12:45:14 AM »
Quote
Anyone who thinks Iran is a major threat or that Georgia ought to be admitted to NATO has a singularly wimpy grasp.

Yet Obama advocates that also.


Xavier_Onassis

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Re: 1st Presidential Debate
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2008, 12:56:15 AM »
If Obama and Mccain are equally dumb on this, then I would decide who is my best choice based on other issues.

Who is the least like Juniorbush?

Who is most likely to start to wean the country off of oil?

Who is most likely to bring universal healthcare to the US?

Who will suck up least to the oligarchy?

Who will be most likely to reform education?

Who will benefit the largest number of my fellow citizens?

And in every case, I am sure that Obama is best.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

BT

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Re: 1st Presidential Debate
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2008, 01:01:30 AM »
Glad we have settled that Obama is for Georgia and the Ukraine joining NATO.

Other than that I'm pretty sure Obama will have his Superman Cape back from the cleaners soon.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: 1st Presidential Debate
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2008, 01:11:39 AM »
Glad we have settled that Obama is for Georgia and the Ukraine joining NATO.

Sorry, I heard no such thing from him.

When someone says IF x is true Y is true, that does not mean that he means that x is true. It is what is called a conditional statement.


McCain is the one who brought it up. There was no point in doing this in a presidential debate. Why reveal yourself to be a moron in front of God and all those people?


This is a dumb issue, like starting a war over Quemoy and Matsu in the Kennedy-Nixon debates. Not important, never mentioned after the election, but amazingly dumb.


A good president should do everything possible to maintain peace, and nothing to provoke war.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

BT

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Re: 1st Presidential Debate
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2008, 01:25:06 AM »
Statement and feedback from the netroots:

"Going forward, the United States and Europe must support the people of Georgia. Beyond immediate humanitarian assistance, we must provide economic assistance, and help rebuild what has been destroyed. I have consistently called for deepening relations between Georgia and transatlantic institutions, including a Membership Action Plan for NATO, and we must continue to press for that deeper relationship."

Statement of Senator Barack Obama on the Conflict in Georgia, August 11, 2008

http://my.barackobama.com/page/community /post/laurinmanning/gG5bh2

Georgia (or Ukraine or Bosnia or any other country) in NATO means we go to war to defend them against anyone who attacks them.  Not statements of support.  Not aid.  Not boycotts of the invader.

WAR.

Do we really want to go to WAR to defend Georgia in the future?  or to defend future Georgias?  Does every unjust invasion require the responsive expenditure of American blood and treasure?  Do we really want to be the cops of the world?

I thought we nominated the anti war candidate. 

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/8/12/182835/321


Xavier_Onassis

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Re: 1st Presidential Debate
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2008, 01:42:13 AM »
Do we really want to go to WAR to defend Georgia in the future?  or to defend future Georgias?  Does every unjust invasion require the responsive expenditure of American blood and treasure?  Do we really want to be the cops of the world?

Not me.

Thank God membership in NATO depends on every other NATO member.

I think saying this is simply posturing to scare the Russkies. Not Putin. I don't think Putin can be frightened. He might back down, but that is not the same thing.

 
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Brassmask

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Re: 1st Presidential Debate
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2008, 01:52:51 AM »
Had to watch it on DVR then spent some time watching the coverage.

During the debate, I was worried that McCain was going to come out way up and look like that "cowboy" the right is always trying to elect to ride around the planet righting wrongs and punishing the "evil-doers".  It appeared to me that Obama (who obviously I was favoring) was constantly on the defensive while McCain brazenly (Bush-like) lied about misrepresented Obama's comments and stances.

I've seen Obama say in speeches and interviews that the "surge" succeeded in curbing the violence in Iraq over the last few months and even said it tonight during the debate but then, moments later, McCain sat that and actually said that Obama "keeps denying the surge was a success".  I mean, moments after he had said it was a success.  In this aspect, McCain may have lost the debate, in my opinion.

Clearly, McCain seemed convinced and may have snookered some viewers into believing that he has greater foreign policy cred than Obama.  Yes, he's been to all those places and met all those folks, but Biden later said on Olbermann's show, "Hey, I've been to all those places too, but that doesn't mean I'm always right."  And that is true, at least in part.

What I am confident will surely have cost McCain the most points is his absolute willingness and overuse of condescension.  Keeping up the strategy of snark, sarcasm and just general mockery of Obama will play really well with the rightwingers who like to totally dominate and destroy whatever or whoever they see as against them or "less than".  When McCain said, "What Senator Obama just really doesn't get..." or some variation of such for the twentieth time, it proved that he was still a Rovian campaigner through and through.  I'm not sure what he thought the result was supposed to be by doing that (perhaps to fluster Obama?) but it worked very much against him.

I'm no fan of Jim Lehrer's.  I respect him as a veteran newsman but he's a horrible moderator and his questions were not specific but he acted like they were and got agitated by the vague responses (most of which were from McCain, I think).  Lehrer's attempt to get the two men to talk to one another played in Obama's favor.  Obama is a gentleman.  Obama actually tried to debate John McCain and was constantly talking directly to him and calling him "John" (that latter part I think was maybe a subtle attempt to bring McCain down to earth, but it may have just been over-familiarity).  McCain would have none of it.  McCain never even once looked at Obama during the whole debate that I saw other than the handshakes before and after.  I saw that as just more of the same of McCain embrace of the condescension strategy but I think it played to many undecideds as Obama's willingness to try and meet the other side halfway because he genuinely cares about solving the issues we face in a manner at least generally acceptable by most.

I started out trying to be fair to McCain but he sounded like he wanted to return the Reagan era 80's every time he talked about Russia.  He sounded like Bush when he was talking about "watch out for so and so country" like he was setting up the next axis of evil member.  And when he was totally sounding like Sean Hannity (liar extraordinaire) by talking about Obama wants to meet with Achmendenajad without pre-conditions, I wanted to kick him in the balls.  He sounded MOST ludicrous when he said that bit about "when Achmendenajad just sitting there spouting off about wiping out Israel, we're just going to sit there and tell him, 'no, you're not'?!?!?!?"  Obama missed the chance to go, (in a more statesmanlike fashion, of course) "You're god-damned right, John!"

I think Pat Buchanan summed it up best by describing McCain the winner of the fight "by points".  No knockouts.  Some solid blows landed by McCain and a few less landed by Obama but Obama held his own and refused to be cowed or knocked out.

In some way, I think this is just the way Obama's campaign wants things to go.  It has been there modus operandi to hold back, play rope-a-dope and let everyone think that he's down, then come back with the home run.  That's how they played the Wright situation, that's how they did the primary, that's how they ran the convention and I think that's how they're going to play the debates.  He'll appear to have not won this one, then the next one will be a little better and then he'll walk out on stage and pile-drive McCain.  McCain will just attack, attack, attack because that's the only way he can control the news cycles and by the third debate, everyone be saying that McCain had it comin' when he's laying on the floor with his back broken.


PS.  It would be, oh so like me to expect that Sarah Palin's performances in the Couric interviews were simply attempts by the McCain campaign to lower expectations so that next Thursday, she could shock the world.  If that happens, she should get an Oscar (at least an Emmy) but sadly, I think that she is going to have a horrible stomach flu next Thursday or her dog will have eaten her flashcards and she'll just have to give it a miss.  Personally, I think she's been damaged by the people running the campaign.  They've scared the sass right out of her trying to give her talking points and insisting that she stay on message.  And I couldn't be happier about McCain's choice.

BT

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Re: 1st Presidential Debate
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2008, 02:00:45 AM »
The pressure Obama must feel to live up to your expectations.

Sad really

Brassmask

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Re: 1st Presidential Debate
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2008, 02:05:34 AM »
The pressure Obama must feel to live up to your expectations.

Sad really

What is that supposed to mean?  I think he held his own quite nicely but I think McCain won on points for sheer brutality.

Obama is a great statesmen and obviously better suited to the office of POTUS than McCain but I wish he had kicked McSame's ass.

BT

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Re: 1st Presidential Debate
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2008, 02:15:06 AM »
Quote
Obama is a great statesmen and obviously better suited to the office of POTUS than McCain but I wish he had kicked McSame's ass.

He didn't.

Does that disappoint you? Did he not meet your expectations.

Gore was supposed to kick Bush's ass too.

Next debate he was on Valium (remember the Al Gore sigh) and the last he looked orange ( what was that about?).

That is what happens when you try to please other people instead of being yourself.

And Obama was trying to please. McCain was being himself.


Brassmask

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Re: 1st Presidential Debate
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2008, 02:34:45 AM »
Quote
Obama is a great statesmen and obviously better suited to the office of POTUS than McCain but I wish he had kicked McSame's ass.

He didn't.

Does that disappoint you? Did he not meet your expectations.

Gore was supposed to kick Bush's ass too.

Next debate he was on Valium (remember the Al Gore sigh) and the last he looked orange ( what was that about?).

That is what happens when you try to please other people instead of being yourself.

And Obama was trying to please. McCain was being himself.



Hey, dude, did I say anything like "next time, he better come out and do so and so or I'm voting McCain or not voting?"  No, I didn't.  I stated my hopes.  I stated I believe he held his own.

You've been hanging around with your pal, sirs, too long and are, like he does constantly, assuming a lot.

BT

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Re: 1st Presidential Debate
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2008, 02:53:25 AM »
Quote
Hey, dude, did I say anything like "next time, he better come out and do so and so or I'm voting McCain or not voting?"  No, I didn't.  I stated my hopes.  I stated I believe he held his own.

Hmm I don't believe i said you would get all dejected and vote for McCain. So who is doing the projecting, dude?


Quote
McCain will just attack, attack, attack because that's the only way he can control the news cycles and by the third debate, everyone be saying that McCain had it comin' when he's laying on the floor with his back broken.

Perhaps i misread this. This is not what you hope he will do next time?