Author Topic: They might , at least, try Rumsfield for war crimes  (Read 1541 times)

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Knutey

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They might , at least, try Rumsfield for war crimes
« on: December 12, 2008, 11:00:55 AM »
   
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-interrogate-abuse12-2008dec12,0,2238629.story
From the Los Angeles Times
Rumsfeld blamed in detainee abuse scandals
A bipartisan Senate report calls decisions made by the former Defense secretary a 'direct cause' of inhumane treatment of prisoners of war. Other Bush officials also are faulted.
By Greg Miller and Julian E. Barnes

3:49 PM PST, December 11, 2008

Reporting from Washington — A bipartisan Senate report released today concluded that decisions made by former Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld were a "direct cause" of widespread detainee abuses, and that other Bush administration officials were to blame for creating a legal and moral climate that contributed to inhumane treatment.

The report, which was endorsed by Democrats and Republicans on the Senate Armed Services Committee, is the most forceful denunciation to date of the role that Rumsfeld and other top officials played in the prisoner abuse scandals of the last five years.

In several of its findings, the document also challenged the frequent assertions of senior Bush administration officials that the most egregious cases of prisoner mistreatment were isolated incidents of appalling conduct by U.S. troops.

"The abuse of detainees at Abu Ghraib in late 2003 was not simply the result of a few soldiers acting on their own," the document said. Instead, it said, a series of high-level decisions in the Bush administration "conveyed the message that physical pressures and degradation were appropriate treatment for detainees in U.S. military custody."

The document aimed its harshest criticism at Rumsfeld's decision in December 2002 to authorize the use of aggressive interrogation techniques at the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

Although it was rescinded six weeks later, the report described the Rumsfeld order as "a direct cause for detainee abuse" at Guantanamo Bay, and concluded that it "influenced and contributed to the use of abusive techniques, including military working dogs, forced nudity and stress positions, in Afghanistan and Iraq."

The report also criticized President Bush, although less harshly. In particular, it cited a presidential memorandum signed Feb. 7, 2002 that denied detainees captured in Afghanistan the protections of the Geneva Conventions, which ban abusive treatment of prisoners of war.

Bush's decision to bypass an international law that had been observed by U.S. troops for decades sent a message that "impacted the treatment of detainees in U.S. custody," the report said.

That message was bolstered by a series of legal memos from the Justice Department, the report said, that "distorted the meaning and intent of anti-torture laws" and "rationalized the abuse of detainees in U.S. custody."

The Senate report represents the culmination of an 18-month investigation by the committee's staff. It is the latest, and in many respects the most comprehensive, in a series of government investigations started after photographs surfaced in April 2004 of prisoners at the U.S.-run Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq being stripped of their clothes, piled up in pyramids and strapped to what appeared to be electrical wires.

Those abuses "cannot be chalked up to the actions of a few bad apples," said Sen. Carl Levin (D-Mich.), chairman of the Armed Services Committee, referring to a line used by former Deputy Defense Secretary Paul D. Wolfowitz in an attempt to downplay the scandal.

Levin said it was "both unconscionable and false" for Rumsfeld and others to blame troops and escape accountability. Even so, the report does not call for further investigation or punishment.

The findings were approved last month in a unanimous vote by 17 of the committee's 25 members, indicating that the document had the support of at least four of the panel's Republicans. Committee officials did not identify those who did not attend the vote.

Among the panel's members are several GOP senators who have generally been critical of the administration's conduct on detainee matters, including John McCain of Arizona, John W. Warner of Virginia, Susan Collins of Maine and Lindsey Graham of South Carolina.

Levin said the committee had reviewed thousands of documents and conducted interviews with more than 70 people, including written responses from Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.

The committee's investigation did not focus on the CIA's treatment of detainees, or the agency's operation of a network of secret prisons.

But the inquiry turned up new information showing that the Defense Department had consulted with the CIA on interrogation matters, and that top White House officials had reviewed CIA methods earlier and in more detail than previously acknowledged.

Most of the committee's findings had been disclosed earlier, in the panel's interim reports, or in other investigations. But the document traces the origins of aggressive interrogation techniques to U.S. military survival training programs. It then follows the use of coercive methods as they migrated from Guantanamo Bay to Afghanistan, then to Iraq and Abu Ghraib.

The techniques, based on practices detailed in military courses on survival, evasion, resistance and escape, known as SERE, included stress positions, removal of clothing and the exploitation of phobias, including fear of dogs.

One month after Rumsfeld issued his order approving such methods at Guantanamo, they were part of a presentation witnessed by Army Capt. Carolyn Wood at Bagram air base in Afghanistan, the Senate committee said. Wood has been criticized by human rights groups for her role in U.S. interrogation techniques, and was singled out by one military investigation for failing to properly oversee interrogators.

The committee found that the Afghanistan techniques eventually became standard procedure for all U.S. forces in Iraq. And by summer 2003, Wood, then serving in Iraq, proposed that the practices become the interrogation policy at Abu Ghraib.

After Wood proposed extending the use of the techniques and pressure grew to increase the amount of intelligence about the insurgency, the top commander in Iraq, Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, authorized interrogators on Sept. 14, 2003, to use stress positions, "sleep management" and dogs while questioning detainees.

A month later, he rescinded permission to use the techniques.

"The new policy, however, contained ambiguities with respect to certain techniques, such as the use of dogs in interrogations, and led to confusion about which techniques were permitted," the Senate panel said.

Miller and Barnes are writers in our Washington bureau.

greg.miller@latimes.com

julian.barnes@latimes.com


If you want other stories on this topic, search the Archives at latimes.com/archives.
 
   

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: They might , at least, try Rumsfield for war crimes
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2008, 11:24:16 AM »
"influenced and contributed to the use of abusive techniques, including military working dogs,
forced nudity and stress positions, in Afghanistan and Iraq."


Oh my God.....booo whoooo.....how horrible.....they decapitate reporters,
but we did "forced nudity" and "stress positions".....oh my GOD!!!!!!How dare we!



"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Knutey

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Re: They might , at least, try Rumsfield for war crimes
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2008, 11:42:45 AM »
"influenced and contributed to the use of abusive techniques, including military working dogs,
forced nudity and stress positions, in Afghanistan and Iraq."


Oh my God.....booo whoooo.....how horrible.....they decapitate reporters,
but we did "forced nudity" and "stress positions".....oh my GOD!!!!!!How dare we!





Xtians do get their rocks off this way I guess







And the culprits love it.



Christians4LessGvt

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Re: They might , at least, try Rumsfield for war crimes
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2008, 12:11:06 PM »


vs.




OH MY YES....THE UPPER PIC IS MUCH WORSE TREATMENT!
LETS SCREAM & SHOW OUTRAGE ABOUT THE 1st Pic!
THE TOP PIC IS JUST TERRIBLE TERRIBLE PAIN/TORTURE!  ::)



"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: They might , at least, try Rumsfield for war crimes
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2008, 12:49:56 PM »
The difference between Al Qaeda and pond scum is nil. This is not a contest to see who can be the most abusive.

I would prefer that my country not try to compete with Al Qaeda in being stupid, vengeful or cruel.

If you prefer that your country be stupid, vengeful and cruel, I think you would be happier in Uzbekistan.

It would be a appropriate place for a vengeful authority to send Rumsfeld, but I think Leavenworth would be best.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Knutey

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Re: They might , at least, try Rumsfield for war crimes
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2008, 01:02:37 PM »


vs.




OH MY YES....THE UPPER PIC IS MUCH WORSE TREATMENT!
LETS SCREAM & SHOW OUTRAGE ABOUT THE 1st Pic!
THE TOP PIC IS JUST TERRIBLE TERRIBLE PAIN/TORTURE!  ::)





I know a sicko Xtian like you would prefer the naked pile, but some Muslims would prefer the latter. I am surprised that you didnt run that pic of you sucking your thumb as well .

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: They might , at least, try Rumsfield for war crimes
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2008, 01:48:09 PM »
"If you prefer that your country be stupid, vengeful and cruel...."

Oh it's soooooo terrible a little nudy pic compared to sawing off heads!
Typical American Hating leftist...
yeah yeah the Americans are the bad bad bad bad bad guys!

BTW I prefer my country to do "whatever it takes" to defeat the enemy,
so instead of stupid harmless nudy pics I would prefer killing the enemy so
you cant whine and get them released from places like Club Gitmo so they
can kill again.

"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: They might , at least, try Rumsfield for war crimes
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2008, 01:57:48 PM »
I prefer my country to do "whatever it takes" to defeat the enemy,

And you actually believe that making Iraqis strip and pile themselves up naked is going to win any sort of war?

That is not just stupid, it's sick.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: They might , at least, try Rumsfield for war crimes
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2008, 02:22:26 PM »
Xo would prefer we play them in a game of cribbage, and if they lose we would expect some forthcoming information......because, that'll work, and they won't get mad at us any more in the process



Seriously though................ (see new thread topic)
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: They might , at least, try Rumsfield for war crimes
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2008, 02:35:16 PM »
No XO I am a bit more concerned about crap like this
than some stupid nudy pic. It would be like during an
heart operation, one doctor is al Qaeda and one doctor is
american.....during the operation the american doctor
accidently snips off the patients toe-nail, but the
al Qaeda doctor accidently saws off the guys head..
quess what the american left would be more outraged
about? Yeah you guessed it...."OH MY GOD
WHAT A MISTAKE!!...HOW COULD YOU TOUCH
THE GUY'S TOES when you are opertating
on a heart??....oh my this is terrible...shame shame!"



Al Qaeda's anthrax scientist
By Thomas JoscelynDecember 12, 2008 1:16 PM
The Daily Standard.

The government of Malaysia made a curious announcement this week: Yazid Sufaat, a known al Qaeda operative, and four other alleged terrorists have been released from jail. It is not clear why Malaysian authorities thought it was time to set them free. Malaysia's home minister, Syed Hamid Albar, simply declared, "They are no longer a threat but they will be watched closely."

We can only hope.

Sufaat's newfound freedom is troubling. According to the 9-11 Commission, four top al Qaeda operatives stayed at Sufaat's apartment in Malaysia in January of 2000. The al Qaeda terrorists were in Malaysia for an important planning meeting, during which they discussed the upcoming attack on the USS Cole and details of the 9/11 operation. Shortly after the meeting, al Qaeda terrorists Khalid al Mihdhar and Nawaf al Hazmi, both of whom stayed at Sufaat's apartment, left for California. Twenty months later, al Mihdhar and al Hazmi were part of the team responsible for hijacking American Airlines Flight 77 and crashing it into the Pentagon.

Al Mihdhar and al Hazmi were not the only 9/11 plotters to receive Sufaat's hospitality. In the fall of 2000, Sufaat played host to convicted al Qaeda terrorist Zacarias Moussaoui during his visit to Malaysia. Moussaoui was scheduled to take part in the September 11 attacks, or a similar follow-on plot, but was detained by the FBI in August of 2001.

Thus, Sufaat assisted al Qaeda members during a crucial juncture in their operational planning for the 9/11 attacks.

And that is not all Sufaat accomplished during his terrorist career. According to the 9/11 Commission, Sufaat is guilty of more.

At some point, a top al Qaeda operative named Hambali, who is currently a high-value detainee being held at Guant?namo, introduced Sufaat to al Qaeda's number two, Ayman al Zawahiri. Zawahiri wanted to jumpstart al Qaeda's program for developing anthrax and asked Hambali for assistance in finding a suitable scientist. Sufaat fit the bill. In 1987, he graduated from California State University at Sacramento with a bachelor's degree in biological sciences and a minor in chemistry. In 2001, Sufaat put his degree to work for al Qaeda. The 9/11 Commission found that he spent "several months attempting to cultivate anthrax for al Qaeda in a laboratory he helped set up near the Kandahar airport," which was then a stronghold for Osama bin Laden.

It was for good reasons, then, that Malaysian authorities detained Sufaat in December 2001. And there are good reasons to worry now that he has been freed. We must now rely upon the Malaysian government to make sure the freed Sufaat does not find his way back into al Qaeda's ranks.

Sufaat's story is not entirely unique, however. The U.S. government is relying on dozens of foreign governments to monitor both known and suspected terrorists who were once detained. For instance, the United States has transferred or released approximately 550 suspects from Guantanamo. While surely some of these men were innocents wrongly swept up in the fog of war, many of them were in fact part of the global terror network. In fact, some of them are well-acquainted with Sufaat's attempts to develop anthrax for al Qaeda.

One of these former Guantanamo detainees (BooWhoo LETTEM OUT!  ::) ) is a Saudi named Abdullah Aiza al Matrafi, who was detained by Pakistani authorities in December 2001 and then turned over to American authorities. Al Matrafi spent several years at Guant?namo before being repatriated to Saudi Arabia in December of 2007. Despite agreeing to transfer him, the U.S. Government did not believe al Matrafi was an innocent. During his time in U.S. custody, al Matrafi spoke of al Qaeda plots against U.S. nuclear facilities and water dams. It is not clear if he knew of actual plots or was merely full of bluster. The U.S. government's unclassified files also note that at some point during his detention al Matrafi admitted: "Yes I am a member of al Qaeda and I took orders from Osama bin Laden." He bragged: "I am a terrorist. Yes I am very proud to be a terrorist."

Al Matrafi was allegedly the co-founder of a "charity" named al Wafa. Like dozens of other Islamic charities, al Wafa was not really humanitarian endeavor but instead a front for the Taliban and al Qaeda. The Saudi-based group has been designated a terrorist organization under Presidential Executive Order 13224.

Al Matrafi established al Wafa offices throughout the Taliban-controlled parts of Afghanistan and Pakistan. And he also established a presence for the group in Iranian cities such as Tehran, Zahedan, Tayyebat, and Meshad. Al Wafa used the mullahs' soil to transport terrorists into Afghanistan. For example, another former Guant?namo detainee was a driver for al Matrafi
and would pick up terrorists in Meshad, Iran and then drive them to the westernmost parts of Afghanistan.

This transportation route was not al Wafa's only contribution to al Qaeda and the Taliban, however. Under al Matrafi's management, al Wafa purchased arms and other supplies for al Qaeda and the Taliban. Al Matrafi himself allegedly attempted to purchase a laser guided missile system and missiles. And it is a safe bet that if he had acquired them, these weapons would have ended up in al Qaeda's hands.

Al Matrafi was connected to the highest levels of the terror network. He allegedly met with Osama bin Laden twice, once in late 2000 and a second time in July 2001 at bin Laden's house in Kandahar. Al Matrafi acted as an emissary between bin Laden and Saudi clerics who supported al Qaeda, including one who helped establish al Wafa. According to the U.S. Government's files, al Matrafi also had "numerous conversations with Mullah Omar" and "negotiated a deal that allowed the Taliban to direct al Wafa's activities."

Al Matrafi's ties to these senior terrorists gave al Wafa access to al Qaeda's most sensitive projects, including Yazid Sufaat's anthrax program.

One of al Matrafi's employees, a Yemeni named Ayman Saeed Abdullah Batarfi, is currently held at Guantanamo.(BOOWHOO LETTEM OUT!  ::) ) It is not clear what the U.S. Government plans to do with him, but Batarfi is allegedly a long-time mujahideen, having first traveled to Afghanistan to fight the Soviets in the late 1980s. After training in an al Qaeda camp and participating in the first jihad in Afghanistan, Batarfi graduated from medical school in Pakistan and, according to the New York Times, "pursued postdoctoral studies there." Batarfi even became an orthopedic surgeon.

Batarfi used his expertise to become the medical advisor to al Wafa. It was in this capacity, the government alleges, that Batarfi "met a Malaysian microbiologist in Kandahar" while staying at an al Qaeda guesthouse in August 2001. "This microbiologist wanted to equip a lab and train the Afghans to test blood" and "was involved in developing anthrax for al Qaida." Batarfi told another al Wafa member "to purchase four to five thousand United States Dollars worth of medical equipment for the Malaysian microbiologist."

Although the microbiologist is not named in the government's unclassified files, he is most certainly Yazid Sufaat.

Yet another current Guantanamo detainee (LETTEM OUT!  ::) ) is, like Batarfi, a Yemeni who was working for al Wafa at the time of his capture. The U.S. government alleges that Jamil Ahmed Said Nassir was identified by a senior al Wafa official as being "a Karachi University microbiology graduate student," who purchased materials for Wafa from a chemical company. Thus, Nassir may have been involved in Sufaat's anthrax program as well. It is possible that Nassir is, like Sufaat, a scientist who wanted to use his training to serve al Qaeda's goals.

So, we have four alleged terrorists all of whom have been detained in the post-9/11 world and at least three of whom were allegedly involved in al Qaeda's anthrax program in some fashion. Two of them, Yazid Sufaat and Abdullah Aiza al Matrafi, have been released from custody. It is up to the Malaysian government to make sure Sufaat does not return to terrorism. And it is up to the Saudis to make sure al Matrafi does not rejoin his al Qaeda and Taliban brethren. Indeed, more than one hundred Saudis are in al Matrafi's shoes--that is, they were once detained at Guantanamo (BooWho LETTEM OUT!  ::) ) and are now living in Saudi Arabia. The Saudis have built a program to rehabilitate these former detainees, but only time will tell if this effort is effective.

The other two, Ayman Saeed Abdullah Batarfi and Jamil Ahmed Said Nassir, currently reside at Guantanamo (BooWhoo LETTEM OUT!  ::) ).. Both of them are Yemenis and the Bush administration has had a difficult time figuring out what to do with the approximately 97 Yemenis left at Guant?namo. It is not clear what the new Obama administration will do with them either.

Unlike the Saudis, the Yemenis have had no program for dealing with former detainees. Just recently, the Bush administration repatriated Osama bin Laden's former driver, Salim Hamdan, to Yemen. Hamdan has a high profile because of the U.S. court proceedings surrounding his detention, so it would be remarkable if the Yemeni government allows him to find his way back to the battlefield. Then again, terrorists, including those responsible for the USS Cole bombing, have repeatedly escaped custody in Yemen. Perhaps this is why one Guant?namo document notes: "Yemen is not a nation supporting the Global War on Terrorism." We should not, therefore, be confident in Yemen's ability to monitor Batarfi and Nassir should they be repatriated.

During the post-9/11 invasion of Afghanistan the U.S. learned that al Qaeda was much closer to developing chemical and biological weapons, such as anthrax, than previously thought. And now one of the chief terrorists responsible for that program has been freed. It is at least possible that some of his companions who have been detained at Guantanamo will join him. (BooWhoo Lettem Out!  ::) )

Such is the world we now live in. Known terrorists such as Yazid Sufaat are freed and the U.S. depends on foreign nations to ensure that they do not wreak havoc using anthrax or other means on behalf of al Qaeda.

« Last Edit: December 12, 2008, 02:46:24 PM by ChristiansUnited4LessGvt »
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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: They might , at least, try Rumsfield for war crimes
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2008, 02:41:49 PM »
Xo would prefer we play them in a game of cribbage, and if they lose we would expect some forthcoming information......because, that'll work, and they won't get mad at us any more in the process


==================================



Explain how stripping men and photographing them in plies or being led around on a dog leash are going to win any sort of war.

As for your inane comments, you are not addressing the issue, you are just playing with yourself.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: They might , at least, try Rumsfield for war crimes
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2008, 02:49:01 PM »
"Explain how stripping men and photographing them in plies or
being led around on a dog leash are going to win any sort of war.


You're missing the point AGAIN.
The point is frankly I dont give a shit about some stupid ass nudy pic or stress tactics.
Not when the enemy is preparing Anthrax
You'd have to be a complete moron to be concerned about a "stubbed toe" when your about
to have a heart attack!

"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

sirs

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Re: They might , at least, try Rumsfield for war crimes
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2008, 04:10:13 PM »
Xo would prefer we play them in a game of cribbage, and if they lose we would expect some forthcoming information......because, that'll work, and they won't get mad at us any more in the process
==================================
Explain how stripping men and photographing them in plies or being led around on a dog leash are going to win any sort of war.  As for your inane comments, you are not addressing the issue, you are just playing with yourself.

Try addressing the issue for a change vs your standard knee jerk snarking response
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Knutey

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Re: They might , at least, try Rumsfield for war crimes
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2008, 07:04:31 PM »
"If you prefer that your country be stupid, vengeful and cruel...."

Oh it's soooooo terrible a little nudy pic compared to sawing off heads!
Typical American Hating leftist...
yeah yeah the Americans are the bad bad bad bad bad guys!

BTW I prefer my country to do "whatever it takes" to defeat the enemy,
so instead of stupid harmless nudy pics I would prefer killing the enemy so
you cant whine and get them released from places like Club Gitmo so they
can kill again.



I think you just prefer killing people who are different . Protecting your country is just another excuse to kill .And for as little as soliciting a bribe as well.

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: They might , at least, try Rumsfield for war crimes
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2008, 07:56:10 PM »
I think you just prefer killing people who are different

thats it....it's just an accident that I want to kill
people that are at war with the United States or that are
convicted in a court of law. yeah it has nothing to do
with that they did this:



it's that they are "different"  ::)


Protecting your country is just another excuse to kill

You love killing people alot more than I do.
Tens of millions of american babies.
I hope you are proud!



And for as little as soliciting a bribe as well

Yeah dats it boss, it has nothing to do with the integrity of democracy.
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987