Author Topic: I Just Discovered Why Mikey Likes Obama, Pelosi & Reid  (Read 3394 times)

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Plane

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Re: I Just Discovered Why Mikey Likes Obama, Pelosi & Reid
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2010, 08:31:49 PM »
  If only I could have been consulted , I would have told my ancestors several things thay should have done diffrently .

   Of course I was absent at those meetings , not haveing been conceived yet.

Michael Tee

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Re: I Just Discovered Why Mikey Likes Obama, Pelosi & Reid
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2010, 09:09:25 PM »
<<If only I could have been consulted , I would have told my ancestors several things thay should have done diffrently .

 <<Of course I was absent at those meetings , not haveing been conceived yet.>>

That is EXACTLY  what I am talking about.  There is absolutely no such thing as white guilt - - if anyone felt it, it would be a Southerner like plane, and of course he does not.  Why the hell should he?  What the hell did he ever do to them?

They don't even feel guilty about the innocent Muslims they are torturing, murdering and blowing to bits even as we speak, how the hell are they supposed to feel guilt over shit that happened before they were born?

Anyone who talks about "white guilt" is talking out of his ass.

BT

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Re: I Just Discovered Why Mikey Likes Obama, Pelosi & Reid
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2010, 09:36:33 PM »
however group blame is an entirely different matter.

The same thing that absolves Plane from the sins of slavery, ie he had nothing to do with it, is the same thing that absolves him of the Muslim torture you refer to.

But just for the sake of argument, if your corollary is true, that plane is guilty of muslim torture, by extension you are too.



Plane

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Re: I Just Discovered Why Mikey Likes Obama, Pelosi & Reid
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2010, 10:13:56 PM »
however group blame is an entirely different matter.

The same thing that absolves Plane from the sins of slavery, ie he had nothing to do with it, is the same thing that absolves him of the Muslim torture you refer to.

But just for the sake of argument, if your corollary is true, that plane is guilty of muslim torture, by extension you are too.



I do my part.


I don't have much remove from that issue, I maintain some very effective wepons ,with which the Military I am a Veteran of ,shoots Al Quieda members whenever they can be located.

I think torture is a mistake for us to use , the more routenely we use it, the less we are fighting for our ideals within our ideals. President Obama's decision to shoot to kill rather than taking prisoners might be the best we can do.

I have come to think this way in the last few months , seeing and discussing what has been availible. If I were immersed in another situation might I think and act differently ? I dare not be smug about that.

Michael Tee

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Re: I Just Discovered Why Mikey Likes Obama, Pelosi & Reid
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2010, 10:32:45 PM »
I don't believe historical guilt can be compared to group guilt.

We all have some minimal degree of control over our country's policies, even if it's withholding taxes, but we have no control over our ancestors' actions.

The citizens of any country, even one as undemocratic and dictatorial as Nazi Germany, have some ability to influence their country's actions and failure to act is wrong.  Those who fail to act are guilty of their country's crimes, to a greater or lesser extent depending on how much of a difference their action would have made.

Here is what Mario Savio had to say about it on the steps of Sproul Hall in Berkeley, Cal. in 1964:

"There's a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious—makes you so sick at heart—that you can't take part. You can't even passively take part.

"And you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've got to make it stop.

"And you've got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it that unless you're free, the machine will be prevented from working at all."
– Sproul Hall Steps, December 2, 1964

I've got the VHS tape of the documentary film, Berkeley in the Sixties, which shows Mario Savio delivering the original of that speech during the student strike at Berkeley, and it's powerful.  One of the most powerful speeches I've ever seen, no comparison at all with merely reading the words on paper or a computer monitor. 

But it's clear, Mario made it crystal clear:  Either you're a part of the solution, or you're a part of the problem.

« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 10:36:19 PM by Michael Tee »

Plane

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Re: I Just Discovered Why Mikey Likes Obama, Pelosi & Reid
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2010, 10:36:45 PM »
Mario Savio
---"And you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've got to make it stop.

"And you've got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it that unless you're free, the machine will be prevented from working at all." ---



Shouldn't resistance like that be liquidated?

BSB

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Re: I Just Discovered Why Mikey Likes Obama, Pelosi & Reid
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2010, 10:58:32 PM »
Yeah, well, it's a good thing Mario Savio, now dead, didn't stop the apparatus because the gears ground out the Civil Rights Bill, and the machine put Obama in the White House.

BT

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Re: I Just Discovered Why Mikey Likes Obama, Pelosi & Reid
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2010, 11:13:10 PM »
Quote
We all have some minimal degree of control over our country's policies, even if it's withholding taxes, but we have no control over our ancestors' actions.

Why stop at borders. What part of the solution are you? What have you done to stop the torture that Plane hasn't done?

Why are you exempt from group guilt?

Michael Tee

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Re: I Just Discovered Why Mikey Likes Obama, Pelosi & Reid
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2010, 11:20:35 PM »
<<Yeah, well, it's a good thing Mario Savio, now dead, didn't stop the apparatus because the gears ground out the Civil Rights Bill, and the machine put Obama in the White House.>>

While two million innocent Vietnamese were slaughtered, millions more maimed, and the machine that he couldn't stop went on to wreak further carnage in Iraq and Afghanistan and is now eying Iran and Yemen as its next victims.

Mario had the right idea, too bad he was unable to execute.

I am still waiting to see the benefits that are supposed to be reaped from Obama's ascent to the White House.  Waiting and no longer expecting much of anything.  Even if I were sure of Obama's good intentions (which I no longer am) there's a huge question of what, if anything, can be done by anyone against the inertia of government.

BSB

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Re: I Just Discovered Why Mikey Likes Obama, Pelosi & Reid
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2010, 11:28:55 PM »
a) Mario Savio wasn't talking about the war in Vietnam. He was talking about civil rights.

b) Of course you have to say Obama's intentions are less then honorable. You don't have it in you to say anything else. In fact you don't have anything else in you period.

Michael Tee

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Re: I Just Discovered Why Mikey Likes Obama, Pelosi & Reid
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2010, 11:36:44 PM »
<<Why stop at borders. What part of the solution are you? What have you done to stop the torture that Plane hasn't done?

<<Why are you exempt from group guilt?>>

I read about it.  I write about it.  I think about it.   I talk to people about it.   Sometimes I write to politicians, though I gave up on that like I gave up on AI.    I was in AI for almost 15 years.  Also in other solidarity organizations years ago.

I'd say I tried.  Did my efforts bear fruit?  No.  Were they all I could do?  No.  they weren't effective, and more effort wouldn't have been more effective.  The effort was hopeless, doomed from the start.  We were like ants fighting the Leviathan.

My guilt is a different kind of guilt than your guilt.  Your guilt is for supporting the beast, for attacking and ridiculing its opponents, for refusing to oppose the beast because it was wrapped in the flag.

My guilt is for not giving my best, for giving up too easily, for not going all the way.  Very few people DO go all the way, they have a wife, they have kids, it becomes easy to slip from providing for to becoming addicted to a style of living.  I'm guilty, but not as guilty as those who supported the war machine, defended torture in various ways.  If there's a hell, I'll end up in the part of it that isn't the hottest, where the demons are less demonic, and that's cuz I can at least say, "I tried."  Feebly, yes, ineffectually, yes, but I tried.

BT

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Re: I Just Discovered Why Mikey Likes Obama, Pelosi & Reid
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2010, 11:42:26 PM »
You are more guilty because you recognized the beast and your feeble attempts couldn't stop it.

You knew. You read about it, you wrote about it, you formed alliances about it. You knew your efforts were feeble and you didn't take it to the next level. Your efforts were more about feeling good about yourself and less about killing the beast.




BSB

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Re: I Just Discovered Why Mikey Likes Obama, Pelosi & Reid
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2010, 11:48:14 PM »
You didn't go all the way allright, MT.
Many of us who went to Vietnam did go all the way. I didn't buy into that war, but I trained with good soldiers and there was no way I was going to walk away from them while they went into harms way and went to Canada and safety. I put my life on the line for that principle, you just sat on your ass making phone calls. 

Michael Tee

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Re: I Just Discovered Why Mikey Likes Obama, Pelosi & Reid
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2010, 11:56:49 PM »
<<a) Mario Savio wasn't talking about the war in Vietnam. He was talking about civil rights.>>

Mario Savio was talking about student rights, specifically the right to maintain tables on campus loaded with the literature of various causes, student rights, civil rights, anti-war and anarchist, and the injustice of a powerful university in thrall to a Board of Regents who were trying to get the university to infringe on the rights of the students.  So indirectly a lot of different issues were affected by Mario's and the Free Speech Movement's battle.  Also, whatever the original context of those words, they had a life beyond the day they were born, they resonated with a lot of people locked in the fight against war and fascism.  They weren't compartmentalized in a little box labelled "student rights" and nobody involved in any of the other struggles of the Sixties was ever told "Oh you can't draw on those words, they're in the 'student rights' box."

<<b) Of course you have to say Obama's intentions are less then honorable.>>

That is not exactly what I said.  I'm not a True Believer any more, that's for God-damn sure.  But I never said for sure that his intentions were less then honourable.

<< You don't have it in you to say anything else. In fact you don't have anything else in you period.>>

Whatever I've got in me or whatever is missing from me, doesn't make any fucking difference to anyone and is absolutely none of your fucking business.  I don't give a shit what you have in you or don't have in you.  I don't know and I don't want to know.  But you seem to be unnaturally concerned with what you think is missing from me.  Don't be.  Believe me, it's not all that interesting.  I yam what I yam.

Michael Tee

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Re: I Just Discovered Why Mikey Likes Obama, Pelosi & Reid
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2010, 12:17:39 AM »
<<You are more guilty because you recognized the beast and your feeble attempts couldn't stop it.

<<You knew. You read about it, you wrote about it, you formed alliances about it. You knew your efforts were feeble and you didn't take it to the next level. Your efforts were more about feeling good about yourself and less about killing the beast.>>

Fair enough.  The "next level" was bombing American cities, "bringing the war home."  No, I didn't take it to the next level.

You're wrong about one thing, though.  My efforts initially weren't about feeling good about myself.  They were born out of absolute feelings of horror and anger that I had when I read Toronto Star accounts of the torture of prisoners and a few TIME magazine articles, one in particular about an elderly grandmother dying of napalm burns, another about a VC platoon shredded by some fairly sophisticated weaponry, where you could see exactly what someone writing years later (The Greening of America) meant when he wrote of "war by the rich and powerful against the poor and helpless."  That was exactly what I felt reading that TIME magazine article, that the rich and the powerful were at war with the poor and the helpless, and I knew in the very core of my being how just plain wrong that was.

I probably could have done more.  That's what I'm guilty of, not doing more.  Not staying in the fight longer.

But what YOU are guilty of is infinitely worse - - you supported the war, you did nothing to oppose it, and you opposed, ridiculed and challenged those who did oppose it.

To put all this another way - - I was, and still am, in howsoever small a way, a part of the solution, whereas YOU, my friend, unfortunately are very much a part of the problem.  Thus, although I do feel some guilt at not doing all that I could have done, it's matched by some little pride at what little I did; you, OTOH, have nothing to be proud of and everything to be ashamed of.  My guilt is leavened with some pride; yours is absolute.