I wish some of you would get your terms right

[domer]

Well, I can wholeheartedly agree with such an approach. But such an initiative -- yet -- has a lower priority than the main thrust of Israel's existence, which is survival in light of a genocide. Free of real threats, I have every confidence that Israel would, through a wise and benign process, develop policies which reflect the best of this great people and which honor each and every citizen within its borders.

[sirs]

So, you support Israel's segregation based on religion?

No, on their survival as a country.  I thought I had made that point perfectly clear, earlier.

No, they don't have freedom to choose where they wish to live, nor where they wish to work

You mean Israel has slaves??  That sure is news to me

You keep saying that as if it were something amazing (that they have a multiple party system vs our 2 party system). It is a parliamentary system Sirs.

No and so?

Why not argue for it?

I have.  It doesn't seem to be gaining any traction.  Why is that?

So what? (that there is such an overt Anti-semetic bias within the Palestinian and Arab nations)

LOL.  And then you sit there and condemn Israel for daring not integrate these folks into their government and social structure.  Frellin, amazing

[Plane]

Let me respond another way then.

Why should Israel keep such policies? Why have ritzy suburbs that only have Jewish denizens? Why deny Arab citizens the right to live in those areas?

There are Israelis who clearly agree that such policies are outdated. Barak, for example, attempted to remove some of these restrictions and also invest heavily in the poor Arab regions of Israel during his very short term. So clearly, there is a sentiment there for social justice and equality.

It wouldn't take much pressure from the nation that provides most of the aid to Israel to get more done in that direction. That is my point. Why not make that extra effort? Would it not make sense to show the Arab world that there is more to Israel than segregation and restrictions?

Principals have to be workable.

One reason to build walls between people is that they are killing each other without the wall.

People that have agreed together on a code of conduct have an easyer time liveing as neighbors , if there is so much incompatability between two groups that there is no other practical way to keep them alive  than by building a wall , what is more wrong with a wall than the fighting?

[_JS]

No, they don't have freedom to choose where they wish to live, nor where they wish to work

You mean Israel has slaves??  That sure is news to me

Wow. So anything short of slavery is freedom? You'd have made quite the sidekick to the dixiecrats of the mid 20th century Sirs. The Arabs in Israel have the same "freedom to choose where they live" as the blacks in Mississippi and Alabama in the early 1950's. You really have no understanding of segregation or racism, do you?

* By the way, as an aside (and this has nothing to do with this conversation) Israel does have slaves. According to the U.S. State Department report on Human Trafficking from June 2006 Israel's protections against human trafficking are considered "inadequate." Israel especially serves as a focal point for the trafficking in Eastern European women especially from the Ukraine and Russia. Israel is also thought to harbor 16,000 to 20,000 involuntary foreign workers through NGO's. Israel

No and so?

It doesn't get any traction because most Americans don't understand how Parliamentary political systems work.

One reason to build walls between people is that they are killing each other without the wall.

"Peace walls" were built all over Northern Ireland, especially Belfast, and did not prevent violence. They mainly became a symbol of oppression and segregation. Why would it be different in Israel?

[Amianthus]

* By the way, as an aside (and this has nothing to do with this conversation) Israel does have slaves. According to the U.S. State Department report on Human Trafficking from June 2006 Israel's protections against human trafficking are considered "inadequate." Israel especially serves as a focal point for the trafficking in Eastern European women especially from the Ukraine and Russia. Israel is also thought to harbor 16,000 to 20,000 involuntary foreign workers through NGO's. Israel

Using this standard, both the United States and Canada have slaves as well.

[_JS]

Using this standard, both the United States and Canada have slaves as well.

Did I suggest otherwise?

It isn't a part of this conversation though and is not (I don't think) government sanctioned.

[Amianthus]

Did I suggest otherwise?

Jut wanted to point out that using the standard you promulgated, there are no countries that do not have slaves.

[_JS]

Some do better jobs than others at investigation and prosecution of traffickers as well as protection of victims.

Also, some nations' NGO's do a superior job of preventing foreign workers from becoming trapped in servitude.

Israel is considered a Tier 2 country, whereas a nation like Austria or Canada are considered Tier 1 nations (meaning they do much more towards the problem).

Again, this has little to do with the discussion at hand.

[sirs]

Some do better jobs than others at investigation and prosecution of traffickers as well as protection of victims.  Also, some nations' NGO's do a superior job of preventing foreign workers from becoming trapped in servitude.  Israel is considered a Tier 2 country, whereas a nation like Austria or Canada are considered Tier 1 nations (meaning they do much more towards the problem).

Though it does render moot the notion that the Palestinians have no say so what-so-ever as to where they can go and where they can work.  Now Israel is condemned for not doing a better job at illegal trafficking.  Perhaps if you could have demonstrated that their Government does next to nothing or even condones it, you might have a leg to stand on

[_JS]

Do you not read anything? *sigh*

I said that the human slavery issue was an aside and has nothing to do with this conversation.

Now try again. This time try explaining why lack of slavery equals freedom in your definition. Surely that wasn't the case in South Africa or the Southern United States in the 1950's and 1960's.

[Amianthus]

Israel is considered a Tier 2 country, whereas a nation like Austria or Canada are considered Tier 1 nations (meaning they do much more towards the problem).

Canada is also listed as a Tier 2 nation. Very few nations make the Tier 1 list. However, the UAE did make it to that status.

[_JS]

Very few nations make the Tier 1 list. However, the UAE did make it to that status.

Would you like to start a new thread on human trafficking? It is a rather important topic. Or are you just being pedantic?

[Amianthus]

Would you like to start a new thread on human trafficking? It is a rather important topic.

If you feel it's that important, why did you not do so? I have no problems with allowing some divergence on the original thread.

Or are you just being pedantic?

I'd say the person wanting threads to remain narrowly focused would be the one acting "pedantic."

[sirs]

Do you not read anything? *sigh*  I said that the human slavery issue was an aside and has nothing to do with this conversation.
Now try again. This time try explaining why lack of slavery equals freedom in your definition.

You appeared to bring it up as some overt example of Israel being some 3rd world Middle East Sudan, when the point I've made, is that despite how hard it is for Palestinians to seek work and life in Israel proper, they're neither prevented from doing so, nor prevented from seeking work and living elsewhere.  You are the one putting all forms of qualifiers as to what real "freedom" is supposed to be, when your example can be applied to pretty much every country that happens to have illegal trafficking.

[Plane]

  The thread title is pedantic and thus it is appropriate to the thread to quibble over small nuances in the use of terms , in this very appropriately titled thread.



    My right to live anywhere I want has practical limits , I can't live in a house I can't afford , I can't live on a national park , and Indian reservation ,or a military base without special permission.


    Israelis have no more freedom to choose to live amoungst the Palestinians than the Plaestinians have to live amoungst the Isarelis  , many Palestinian real estate agents have been killed over roumors that they helped to sell some land to a Jew. There used to be Jews that lived amoung the Palestinians and there used to be more Palestinians that lived amoung the Jews , but this gets progressively harder as more such mavericks get slaughtered.

     I do not know how much the "peace walls " in Ireland were not effective , but how does anyone know that they had no effect? In Israel the walls are being completed and the rates of killing are dropping where the walls are.

   I can see that good attitude would be much superior to walls , but it takes two to tango and only one to build a wall.