Author Topic: Libertarians' Blind Spots  (Read 3557 times)

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sirs

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Libertarians' Blind Spots
« on: May 19, 2010, 02:38:15 PM »
My sentiments on immigration are expressed by the welcoming words of poet Emma Lazarus' that grace the base of our Statue of Liberty: "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free." Those sentiments are probably shared by most Americans and for sure by my libertarian fellow travelers, but their vision of immigration has some blind spots. This has become painfully obvious in the wake Arizona's law that cracks down on illegal immigration. Let's look at the immigration issue step by step.

There are close to 7 billion people on our planet. I'd like to know how the libertarians answer this question: Does each individual on the planet have a natural or God-given right to live in the U.S.? Unless one wishes to obfuscate, I believe that a yes or no can be given to that question just as a yes or no answer can be given to the question whether Williams has a right to live in the U.S.

I believe most people, even my open-borders libertarian friends, would not say that everyone on the planet had a right to live in the U.S. That being the case suggests there will be conditions that a person must meet to live in the U.S. Then the question emerges: Who gets to set those conditions? Should it be the United Nations, the European Union, the Japanese Diet or the Moscow City Duma? I can't be absolutely sure, but I believe that most Americans would recoil at the suggestion that somebody other than Americans should be allowed to set the conditions for people to live in the U.S.

What those conditions should be is one thing and whether a person has a right to ignore them is another.

People become illegal immigrants in one of three ways: entering without authorization or inspection, staying beyond the authorized period after legal entry or by violating the terms of legal entry. Most of those who risk prosecution under Arizona's new law fit the first category -- entering without authorization or inspection.

Probably, the overwhelming majority of Mexican illegal immigrants are hardworking, honest and otherwise law-abiding members of the communities in which they reside. It would surely be a heart-wrenching scenario for such a person to be stopped for a driving infraction, have his illegal immigrant status discovered and face deportation proceedings. Regardless of the hardship suffered, being in the U.S. without authorization is a crime.

When crimes are committed, what should be done? Some people recommend amnesia, which turns out to be the root word for amnesty. But surely they don't propose it as a general response to crime where criminals confess their crime, pay some fine and apply to have their crimes overlooked. Amnesty supporters probably wish amnesty to apply to only illegal immigrants. That being the case, one wonders whether they wish it to apply to illegals past, present and future, regardless of race, ethnicity or country of origin.

Various estimates put the illegal immigrant population in the U.S. between 10 and 20 million. One argument says we can't round up and deport all those people. That argument differs little from one that says since we can't catch every burglar, we should grant burglars amnesty. Catching and imprisoning some burglars sends a message to would-be burglars that there might be a price to pay. Similarly, imprisoning some illegal immigrants and then deporting them after their sentences were served would send a signal to others who are here illegally or who are contemplating illegal entry that there's a price to pay.

Here's Williams' suggestion in a nutshell.
- Start strict enforcement of immigration law, as Arizona has begun.
- Strictly enforce border security.
- Most importantly, modernize and streamline our cumbersome immigration laws so that people can more easily migrate to our country.



Works for me
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Universe Prince

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Re: Libertarians' Blind Spots
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2010, 03:12:27 PM »
So the libertarian blind spots are nonexistent? 'Cause I don't see any listed in that column. Mostly I see some silly questions and some weak arguments.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

sirs

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Re: Libertarians' Blind Spots
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2010, 03:34:15 PM »
Of course you would.    ::)
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Universe Prince

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Re: Libertarians' Blind Spots
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2010, 03:48:28 PM »

Of course you would.


Of course I would. That is all the column offers. Don't blame me. Blame Williams.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Libertarians' Blind Spots
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2010, 04:16:47 PM »
The problem with immigration is that the US does not need the sort of people who wish to come here, ie unskilled laborers. We need people with technical skills and better education.

What we do now is we allow the prospective immigrants to apply for a visa and pay a rather large fee, which is non-refundable, and to show that they have enough money to support themselves (which is nearly always borrowed from specialized moneylenders).  Most are turned down and lose their fees, which are much more difficult to earn in poor countries than in the US.

I agree that the time of Emma Lazarus is now over. We must effectively restrict immigration.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Libertarians' Blind Spots
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2010, 04:42:19 PM »
Of course you would.

Of course I would. That is all the column offers. Don't blame me. Blame Williams.

Williams was concise and to the point, as ususal.  Your effort to minimize & marginalize it, when this issue comes up, is equally SOP
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Universe Prince

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Re: Libertarians' Blind Spots
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2010, 05:00:59 PM »

Williams was concise and to the point, as ususal.  Your effort to minimize & marginalize it, when this issue comes up, is equally SOP


Is that what bad argumentation is called now days? Concise and to the point?

"Does each individual on the planet have a natural or God-given right to live in the U.S.?" is not a serious question. That's like asking if everyone has a right to punch you in the face, because of course no one is going to answer yes. The argument "One argument says we can't round up and deport all those people. That argument differs little from one that says since we can't catch every burglar, we should grant burglars amnesty," is neither concise nor to the point. Williams is using a somewhat less ridiculous version your tactic of making up positions for your opponent and then attacking the opponent for holding the positions you made up. His argument is weak at best. Saying so requires neither minimization nor marginalization. It only requires speaking the truth.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

sirs

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Re: Libertarians' Blind Spots
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2010, 05:09:09 PM »
Williams was concise and to the point, as ususal.  Your effort to minimize & marginalize it, when this issue comes up, is equally SOP

Is that what bad argumentation is called now days? Concise and to the point?

Naaa, that's what PRINCE calls a concise and to the point arguement supportive of AZ's effort at enforcing current Federal immigration law.  Using hyperbole can be highly effective when trying to make a cogent point.  Williams does it a majority of the time.  You use hyperbolic sarcasm, much the same way, to help reinforce a POV.  Shall I now start referring to all your efforts at such "bad arguementation"


"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Universe Prince

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Re: Libertarians' Blind Spots
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2010, 05:35:04 PM »

Naaa, that's what PRINCE calls a concise and to the point arguement supportive of AZ's effort at enforcing current Federal immigration law.  Using hyperbole can be highly effective when trying to make a cogent point.  Williams does it a majority of the time.  You use hyperbolic sarcasm, much the same way, to help reinforce a POV.  Shall I now start referring to all your efforts at such "bad arguementation"


Notably, you seem unable to defend Williams' column except to insist I'm wrong. If that is the best you can do, calling anyone else's post bad argumentation would purely be hypocrisy on your part. Not that you seem concerned about double standards. You seem quite comfortable with them.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Libertarians' Blind Spots
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2010, 06:05:31 PM »
great article SIRS!
Thanks.
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Universe Prince

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Re: Libertarians' Blind Spots
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2010, 06:12:11 PM »
Bold and caps. Ha ha ha ha ha. What you can't do with words, make up for with pseudo-important emphasis.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Libertarians' Blind Spots
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2010, 06:16:49 PM »
SIRS....here is a great letter about the illegal invaders (verified via Snopes as true)

AARP'S FALL FROM GRACE

The letter below was sent to Mr. Rand, Executive Diretor of AARP

_____________________________________________

Dear Mr. Rand,   

Recently you sent us a letter encouraging us to renew our lapsed membership in AARP by the requested date. I know it is not what you were looking for, but this is the most honest response I can give you. Our gap in coverage is merely a microscopic symptom of the real problem, a deepening lack of faith. 

While we have proudly maintained our membership for several years and have long admired the AARP goals and principles, regrettably, we can no longer endorse it's abdication of our values. Your letter specifically stated that we can count on AARP to speak up for our rights, yet the voice we hear is not ours. Your offer of being kept up to date on important issues through DIVIDED WE FAIL presents neither an impartial view nor the one we have come to embrace. We do believe that when two parties agree all the time on everything presented to them, one is probably not necessary. But, when the opinions and long term goals are diametrically opposed, the divorce is imminent. This is the philosophy which spawned our 200 years of government.       

Once upon a time, we looked forward to being part of the senior demographic. We also looked to AARP to provide certain benefits and give our voice a power we could not possibly hope to achieve on our own. AARP gave us a sense of belonging which we no longer enjoy. The Socialist politics practiced by the Obama administration and empowered by AARP serves only to raise the blood pressure my medical insurance strives to contain. Clearly a conflict of interest there! 

We do not understand the AARP posture, feel greatly betrayed by the guiding forces that we expected to map out our senior years and leave your ranks with a great sense of regret. We mitigate that disappointment with the relief of knowing that we are not contributing to the problem anymore by renewing our membership. There are numerous other organizations which offer discounts without threatening our way of life or offending our sensibilities.       

This Presidential Administration scares the living daylights out of us. Not just for ourselves, but for our proud and bloodstained heritage. But even more importantly for our children and grandchildren. Washington  has rendered Soylent Green a prophetic cautionary tale rather than a nonfiction scare tactic. I have never in my life endorsed any militant or radical groups, yet now I find myself listening to them. I don't have to agree with them to appreciate the fear which birthed their existence. Their borderline insanity presents little more than a balance to the voice of the Socialist mindset in power. Perhaps I became American by a great stroke of luck in some cosmic uterine lottery, but in my adulthood I CHOOSE to embrace it and nurture the freedoms it represents as well as the responsibilities it requires.     

Your website generously offers us the opportunity to receive all communication in Spanish. ARE YOU KIDDING??? Someone has broken into our 'house', invaded our home without our invitation or consent. The President has insisted we keep the perpetrator in comfort and learn the perp language so we can communicate our reluctant welcome to them

I DON'T choose to welcome them.

I DON'T choose to support them.     

I DON'T choose to educate them.     

I DON'T choose to medicate them, pay for their food or clothing. 

American home invaders get arrested.     

Please explain to me why foreign lawbreakers can enjoy privileges on American soil that Americans do not get?     

Why do some immigrants have to play the game to be welcomed and others only have to break & enter to be welcomed? 

We travel for a living. Walt hauls horses all over this great country, averaging over 10,000 miles a month when he is out there. He meets more people than a politician on caffeine overdose. Of all the many good folks he enjoyed on this last 10,000 miles, this trip yielded only ONE supporter of the current administration. One of us is out of touch with mainstream  America . Since our poll is conducted without funding, I have more faith in it than one which is power driven.       

We have decided to forward this to everyone on our mailing list, and will encourage them to do the same. With several hundred in my address book, I have every faith that the eventual exponential factor will make a credible statement to you.     

I am disappointed as hell.       
I am scared as hell. 

I am MAD as hell, and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!


Walt & Cyndy Miller

Farms Equine Transport

"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Universe Prince

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Re: Libertarians' Blind Spots
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2010, 06:33:41 PM »
Quote

Your website generously offers us the opportunity to receive all communication in Spanish. ARE YOU KIDDING??? Someone has broken into our 'house', invaded our home without our invitation or consent. The President has insisted we keep the perpetrator in comfort and learn the perp language so we can communicate our reluctant welcome to them.


Apparently if something is repeated enough times, and/or put in bold text enough times, it becomes true.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

sirs

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Re: Libertarians' Blind Spots
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2010, 06:39:25 PM »
Naaa, that's what PRINCE calls a concise and to the point arguement supportive of AZ's effort at enforcing current Federal immigration law.  Using hyperbole can be highly effective when trying to make a cogent point.  Williams does it a majority of the time.  You use hyperbolic sarcasm, much the same way, to help reinforce a POV.  Shall I now start referring to all your efforts at such "bad arguementation"

Notably, you seem unable to defend Williams' column except to insist I'm wrong. 

I have, in precisely the paragraph you pulled along.  You simply insist on minimizing & marginalizing the defense.  As I said, SOP

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Universe Prince

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Re: Libertarians' Blind Spots
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2010, 07:07:38 PM »
Glad to see you admit you defended Williams' column only by insisting I'm wrong. But this conversation is pointless. Congratulations on always being right. I'm done.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--