Author Topic: Mukasey on Torture  (Read 7002 times)

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Michael Tee

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Re: Mukasey on Torture
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2007, 09:04:18 PM »
Oh, and BTW - - further to what I just posted a minute ago - - here's an item indicating that the next Bush administration crime to be revealed will be CIA torture in a secret torture chamber on Diego Garcia or on U.S. Navy ships off the Indian coast.  Did they or did they not?  Gee, the suspense is killing me.

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/2007/10/is_there_a_cia_prison_on_diego_1.html


Lanya

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Michael Tee

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Re: Mukasey on Torture
« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2007, 11:54:38 PM »
Lanya, that was an excellent article.  It was sickening to read and I hope that efforts are already underway to build a criminal case against Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice and the senior military officers who presided over these atrocities.  Not because any court in the United States would ever touch the case.  Not because the U.S. would ever recognize the jurisdiction of any international court of justice. 

But in the hopes that these criminals will never dare, after their term of office has expired, to venture outside the U.S.A. for fear of being arrested and jailed, like Augusto Pinochet was in Britain, on charges of war crimes and crimes against humanity.  Also to limit their investments abroad, which also might be targeted for confiscation. 

Although the article itself was horrifying, there was also a note of unconscious humour in it as well:

<<One of the many adverse effects of utilizing ?enhanced interrogation techniques,? conducting ?extraordinary renditions? to countries that torture and ?disappearing? people in CIA custody was to undermine the prospect of ever bringing to justice any of the captured authors of the September 11 attacks, or other suspects. As David Cole points out in a December 3 Los Angeles Times op-ed, ?One probable reason for the military?s reluctance [to charge and prosecute most detainees in US custody] is the real risk that any trial will turn into a trial of the United States? own interrogation practices. Although the military tribunal rules do not exclude the use of testimony extracted by torture, no trial will ever be viewed as legitimate if it allows such testimony, and defense lawyers are certain to make this a central issue in any proceeding.?>>

It was hilarious to think of the prospect of the hypocritical bastards of the U.S. military putting their torture victims on trial and themselves then becoming, in the eyes of the world, the accused.  I hope to see the day.

Lanya

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Re: Mukasey on Torture
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2007, 03:15:54 PM »

Sunday, October 21, 2007

Memo to Judge Mukasey: Ask Director Mueller If It Is Torture

Marty Lederman

"By mid-2002, several former [FBI] agents and senior bureau officials said, they had begun complaining that the CIA-run interrogation program amounted to torture and was going to create significant problems down the road -- particularly if the Bush administration was ever forced to allow the Al Qaeda suspects to face their accusers in court. . . . [Director] Mueller pulled many of the agents back from playing even a supporting role in the interrogations to avoid exposing them to legal jeopardy, in the belief that White House and Justice Department opinions authorizing the coercive techniques might be overturned. 'Those guys were using techniques that we didn't even want to be in the room for,' one senior federal law enforcement official said. 'The CIA determined they were going to torture people, and we made the decision not to be involved.'"

The LA Times on why it's going to be difficult to try Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and the 14 other high-level Al Qaeda leaders.

Posted 2:24 AM by Marty Lederman
http://balkin.blogspot.com/2007/10/memo-to-judge-mukasey-ask-director.html
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Michael Tee

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Re: Mukasey on Torture
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2007, 05:26:19 PM »
I guess the problem the Bush administration is going to have to face is that although they personally were prepared to turn the clock back to the 14th Century in terms of barbarism and inhumanity, the courts and world public opinion remain stubbornly stuck in the 21st Century.  (obviously because they hate America and its "freedoms.")    This creates a Hegelian contradiction between the fascist torturers and their courts, creating a serious problem for the courts - - side with the torturers, and lose the respect of the entire world, or reject evidence obtained directly or indirectly through torture, and betray those who appointed you in the expectation that you would serve their interests.

I might be wrong, but I expect the courts to uphold the rule of law.  Why?  Because Bush and his gang will soon be out of office, but the judges will remain in office for a long, long time.  During that time, they like to accumulate honours, including international recognition.  They might want to be invited to address respected foreign courts on ceremonial occasions, or graduating classes of English, Canadian, Australian, South African, Malaysian, Indian or Pakistani lawyers.  It's a nice life.  But not if they act as the puppets of a criminal fascist administration.  But that's just a guess on my part.

sirs

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Re: Mukasey on Torture
« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2007, 07:52:40 PM »
<<What you refer to as "irrelevency", most rationally minded people would refer to as facts.  So, actually, I was asking for FACTS to support the asanine rhetoric that Americans run secret torture chambers.  You of course provided ZIP examples of such.  Your efforts are indeed, appreciated.>>

Crow all you like over your "point" that the Americans don't actually run the torture chambers, that's just a cheap subterfuge that your criminal administration resorts to, which in no way shields them from criminal culpability.  

And as has already been acknowledged, I appreciate how you debunked your own accusation of secret torture chambers actually run by Americans, which was your original accusation.  You can claim "proxy" until your turn blue, which ironically also has no substantiation.  But, at least you're consistent     ;)
« Last Edit: October 22, 2007, 02:34:47 AM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Lanya

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Re: Mukasey on Torture
« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2007, 08:03:44 PM »
How many times does this need to be repeated?

CIA-run
interrogation program amounted to torture
'Those guys were using techniques that we didn't even want to be in the room for,' one senior federal law enforcement official said. 'The CIA determined they were going to torture people, and we made the decision not to be involved.'"

CIA-run interrogation program
amounted to torture
'Those guys were using techniques that we didn't even want to be in the room for,' one senior federal law enforcement official said. 'The CIA determined they were going to torture people, and we made the decision not to be involved.'"

CIA-run interrogation program amounted to torture

'Those guys were using techniques that we didn't even want to be in the room for,' one senior federal law enforcement official said. 'The CIA determined they were going to torture people, and we made the decision not to be involved.'"

'Those guys were using techniques that we didn't even want to be in the room for,' one senior federal law enforcement official said. 'The CIA determined they were going to torture people, and we made the decision not to be involved.'"

CIA-run interrogation program amounted to torture
CIA-run interrogation program amounted to torture
'Those guys were using techniques that we didn't even want to be in the room for,' one senior federal law enforcement official said. 'The CIA determined they were going to torture people, and we made the decision not to be involved.'"

CIA-run interrogation program amounted to torture
'Those guys were using techniques that we didn't even want to be in the room for,' one senior federal law enforcement official said. 'The CIA determined they were going to torture people, and we made the decision not to be involved.'"

CIA-run interrogation program amounted to torture
'Those guys were using techniques that we didn't even want to be in the room for,' one senior federal law enforcement official said. 'The CIA determined they were going to torture people, and we made the decision not to be involved.'"

CIA-run interrogation program amounted to torture
'Those guys were using techniques that we didn't even want to be in the room for,' one senior federal law enforcement official said. 'The CIA determined they were going to torture people, and we made the decision not to be involved.'"

CIA-run
interrogation program amounted to torture
'Those guys were using techniques that we didn't even want to be in the room for,' one senior federal law enforcement official said. 'The CIA determined they were going to torture people, and we made the decision not to be involved.'"
All via
http://balkin.blogspot.com/2007/10/memo-to-judge-mukasey-ask-director.html
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BT

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Re: Mukasey on Torture
« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2007, 08:34:27 PM »

Quote
CIA-run interrogation program amounted to torture.

What does this men. why the choice of the word "amounted to". Why not say involved? Does the use mean it came close  to torture or could be construed as torture .

Guess we won't know. Because one senior federal law enforcement official  is unnamed.


sirs

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Re: Mukasey on Torture
« Reply #38 on: October 21, 2007, 08:56:58 PM »
Precisely, Bt.  Again, you have unsubstantiated innuendo, morphing the objective act of torturing to the subjective "amounted to". 

It'll sure be nice when 1 day, we actually have some facts/evidence of American run secret torture chambers (which would provide us with what "acts of torture" were being performed).  Especially if the worst the left can come up with is waterboarding, as if that comes ANYWHERE close to the stuff folks like AlQeada pride themselves on
« Last Edit: October 22, 2007, 02:34:06 AM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Lanya

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Re: Mukasey on Torture
« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2007, 11:28:51 PM »
   I am so surprised that this one administration, in the space of 6 years,  has changed some of  my countrymen into people that look for loopholes in descriptions of torture, and have no problem excusing  torture.   

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sirs

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Re: Mukasey on Torture
« Reply #40 on: October 21, 2007, 11:42:46 PM »
I am so surprised that this one administration, in the space of 6 years,  has changed some of  my countrymen into people that look for loopholes in descriptions of torture, and have no problem excusing  torture.    

And yet again with who's defining "torture" for who.  Sad.  If you want to call head slapping, loud music, and humiliation, "torture" Lanya, you go right ahead.  For me, I'm going to call torture, that of acts of real torture, the likes that our enemy routinely performs, and gives high fives to themselves for doing such.  You get back to me when you can actually show examples of "your countrymen" excusing acts of mutilation, dismemberment, piercing, raping, burning, etc.  Then, you might have a leg to stand on, in this debate
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Amianthus

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Re: Mukasey on Torture
« Reply #41 on: October 23, 2007, 12:56:54 PM »
Egypt is a signatory on the UN Convention Against Torture, therefore they do not torture people.

Isn't that the way it works?
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

BT

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Re: Mukasey on Torture
« Reply #42 on: October 23, 2007, 01:05:18 PM »
   I am so surprised that this one administration, in the space of 6 years,  has changed some of  my countrymen into people that look for loopholes in descriptions of torture, and have no problem excusing  torture.   




I am so surprised that in the space of six years some people have given up due process and place such credence on vague innuendos from anonymous sources.

At least Joe Wilson had the guts to sign his name to an editorial.


Lanya

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Re: Mukasey on Torture
« Reply #43 on: October 23, 2007, 01:33:47 PM »

[.............]

In addition to this blog, I also maintain a legal blog covering the civil rights decisions of the United States Court of Appeals in Manhattan. Last week, my eyes lit up when I checked the daily decisions and saw that one case involved a guy who claimed he was forced to confess to a crime that he did not commit. This scenario surfaces from time to time for murders and other crimes, but this case was different because it involved the crime of the century: the 9/11 hijackings which launched this country into a new era.

The long and the short of it was that an Egpytian national, Abdallah Higazy, was staying in a hotel in New York City on September 11 and the hotel emptied out when the planes hit the towers. The hotel later found in the closet of his room a device that allows you to communicate with airline pilots. Investigators thought this guy had something to do with 9/11 so they questioned him. According to Higazi, the investigators coerced him into confessing to a role in 9/11. Higazi first adamantly denied any involvement with 9/11 and could not believe what was happening to him. Then, he says, the investigator said his family would go through hell in Egypt, where they torture people like Saddam Hussein. Higazy then realized he had a choice: he could continue denying the radio was his and his family suffers ungodly torture in Egypt or he confesses and his family is spared. Of course, by confessing, Higazy's life is worth garbage at that point, but ... well, that's why coerced confessions are outlawed in the United States.

So Higazy "confesses" and he's processed by the criminal justice system. His future is quite bleak. Meanwhile, an airline pilot later shows up at the hotel and asks for his radio back. This is like something out of the movies. The radio belonged to the pilot, not Higazy, and Higazy was free to go, the victim of horrible timing. Higazi was innocent! He next sued the hotel and the FBI agent for coercing his confession. The bottom line in the Court of Appeals: Higazy has a case and may recover damages for this injustice.

As I read the opinion I realized it was a 44 page epic, too long for me to print out. I blogged about the opinion while I read it online and then posted the blog as I ate lunch. Then something strange happened: a few minutes after I posted the blog, the opinion vanished from the Court of Appeals website! I had never seen this before, and what made all the more strange was that it involved a coerced confession over 9/11. What the hell was going on?

I let some other legal bloggers know about this, particulary the How Appealing blog and Appellate Law and Practice. They both ran a commentary on the missing opinion. Then someone sent How Appealing a PDF of the decision (probably very few of them were floating around since the opinion was posted for a brief period of time) and How Appealing posted the decison.

Then things got even stranger. The Court of Appeals actually phoned How Appealing to request that he remove the opinion from his website since it contained classified information. The Court said that a revised opinion would come out the next day without the classified information. How Appealing actually refused to remove the opinion. Through it all, hundreds of people came to my legal blog to see my summary of the opinion. It was either my blog or printing out and reading a 44 page epic.

The next day, the Court of Appeals reissued the Higazy opinion. With a redaction. The court simply omitted from the revised decision facts about how the FBI agent extracted the false confession from Higazy. For some reason, this information is classified. Just as the opinion gets interesting, when we are about to learn how an FBI agent named Templeton squeezed the "truth" out of Higazy, the opinion reads at page 7: "This opinion has been redacted because portions of the record are under seal. For the purposes of the summary judgment motion, Templeton did not contest that Higazy's statements were coerced."

So the opinion, while interesting, is much less interesting because now we don't know how the FBI extracts false confessions from people. Looking at things from another angle, we don't know how the FBI gets suspected terrorists to tell the truth. Except that we do know this, because the opinion is still available from the How Appealing website. The horse is out of the barn, and the classified portion of the opinion is embedded in the Internet for all eternity. Not only is this decision not to remove the premature opinion now a subject of debate (people tend to think that How Appealing did the right thing in keeping the opinion available), but now we can see the part of the ruling that the Court redacted:

    Higazy alleges that during the polygraph, Templeton told him that he should cooperate, and explained that if Higazy did not cooperate, the FBI would make his brother ?live in scrutiny? and would ?make sure that Egyptian security gives [his] family hell.? Templeton later admitted that he knew how the Egyptian security forces operated: ?that they had a security service, that their laws are different than ours, that they are probably allowed to do things in that country where they don?t advise people of their rights, they don?t ? yeah, probably about torture, sure.?

    Higazy later said, "I knew that I couldn't prove my innocence, and I knew that my family was in danger." He explained that "[t]he only thing that went through my head was oh, my God, I am screwed and my family's in danger. If I say this device is mine, I'm screwed and my family is going to be safe. If I say this device is not mine, I?m screwed and my family?s in danger. And Agent Templeton made it quite clear that cooperate had to mean saying something else other than this device is not mine.?

    Higazy explained why he feared for his family:

        The Egyptian government has very little tolerance for anybody who is ?they?re suspicious of being a terrorist. To give you an idea, Saddam?s security force?as they later on were called his henchmen?a lot of them learned their methods and techniques in Egypt; torture, rape, some stuff would be even too sick to . . . . My father is 67. My mother is 61. I have a brother who developed arthritis at 19. He still has it today. When the word ?torture? comes at least for my brother, I mean, all they have to do is really just press on one of these knuckles. I couldn?t imagine them doing anything to my sister.

    And Higazy added:

        [L]et?s just say a lot of people in Egypt would stay away from a family that they know or they believe or even rumored to have anything to do with terrorists and by the same token, some people who actually could be ?might try to get to them and somebody might actually make a connection. I wasn?t going to risk that. I wasn?t going to risk that, so I thought to myself what could I say that he would believe. What could I say that?s convincing? And I said okay.

That's how they do it, folks. If a foreign national is suspected of terrorist activity, the FBI will threaten to have a brutal foreign government punish his family. And punishment in a place like Egypt is not like punishment here. Punishment here consists of solitary confinement and a very long prison term. Punishment over there is torture.

http://www.psychsound.com/2007/10/a_tale_of_two_decisions_or_how.html
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BT

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Re: Mukasey on Torture
« Reply #44 on: October 23, 2007, 02:00:53 PM »
Wasn't the rendition program started by Clinton?